[DevBlog] Trust Us, We're QA

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I don't think Jagex is "lazy" or they "don't care." I still think that the QA isn't meeting up to past standards as far as bugs are concerned. Personally, I think the game needs to be stalled for a bit and take it back down to code to rework it. It's far too complex and a giant jumble right now.

 

 

 

That would be the biggest upgrade we've ever seen. :P

[Kill_Life]

It's a nice read.

 

 

 

I always had a lot of respect for the QA and I'm sure they work hard to find as many bugs as possible.

 

 

 

Sure, a lot are found by players, but it's nice to see that only this little are found in a game with the size and playerbase of Runescape.

 

 

 

Bugs will always be found because of a simple reason: Some of us are crazy.

 

That's meant in a positive way.

 

Thousands of players playing the game the way they like it and always seeking new, challanging and never-been-done things.

 

Some 'wacko' doing something crazy, no one, not even the QA team would think of in 10 years.

 

 

 

So it's no wonder a bug is found from time to time, one bigger than the other.

 

But overall, I must say they are doing a very good job.

[thestig0]

I think the QA team do a generally good job, it's just annoying when they miss the very obvious bugs, such as when only the Conflict scenario was available in Mobilising Armies, something which appeared very obvious, which QA didn't notice.

[Yoko Kurama]

Yea, because I kiss Jagex's [wagon].

 

 

 

Pretty much, for a long while now, you unncessarily defend Jagex and do so belligerently--refusing to hear anything to the contrary--this has happened on more than one occasion. You are the reason that quite a few intelligent posters refrain from posting on these forums; some people have better things to do than deal with trolls.

 

 

 

 

 

It's an industry fact that some bugs cannot be tested until they're in a live environment. Every software developer knows this, EVER software developer does this.

 

 

 

Care to explain the fact that a significant portion of MA wasn't even PLAYABLE or BH/PVP(in the first few hours you weren't able to attack others. Yeah, I accept the fact that Jagex can't be perfect, and nor have I ever expected them to be such, however, that doesn't mean I am going to be close minded and trust them blindly like you do. Yeah, often there are honest mistakes, and then there are instances where it should be plainly obvious that they are BS'ing. Either that or I guess they didn't bother to test out 75% of MA and the most basic thing in BH; attacking people.

 

 

 

 

 

But go ahead and keep reiterating the same talking points. I'm a [blocked due to abuse], Jagex hates its players, blah blah whinging.

 

 

 

Considering the way they handle their CS, and the way they treat their customers even while admitting that they were at fault(350M: "I know more about your account than you do." "Sorry I guess you were right, you DID lose your items due to it being OUR fault." "You still won't be getting your items back however an apology from me is so rare that you should be glad for getting just that".). Sorry but you are going to have come with a really solid argument if you intend to convince anyone that Jagex doesn't loathe its customers. Add on top of that--NO appeals if you are suspected of autoing(despite there being false bannings about this in the fast), I am all ears if you have anything to say to the contrary. Simply stating "They don't hate you" isn't enough.

 

 

 

Keep throwing the same half-witted rhetoric and hope that something will eventually stick. It seems to work occasionally for the other preteens on the RSOF.

 

 

 

That comment would be best applicable to you.

 

 

 

 

 

@Omali: Is it really our job to count on other stupid players to test out our content first? What if these stupid players get smart and do the same thing? Imagine a new update, and everybody waiting for other people to try it first

 

 

 

There are plenty of people who will fly right into new updates with their prized possessions in their bank. If half of runescape learned from past events, we would have someone diving neck first into Mobilising Armies, one of the biggest ventures as far as the Runescript system can go, with 350mil waiting to be lost.

 

 

 

That is simply complete nonsense; so now you are claiming that the player is at fault for taking items to what was supposed to be a safe minigame? Basically what you are saying is you should know better than to trust Jagex with decent QA on the day of the update--while at the same time you are coming to their defence in classical sheeple style.

 

 

 

As a more general comment: It makes little sense for Jagex to engage in such business practices--something most other business don't do. It isn't necessarily their QA that is scary, it is their response. If you are gonna have a 'no-reimbursement policy', your QA better be robust and nearly flawless. What is frustrating is that Jagex has a POOR track record/share of mistakes of QA(just look at this year alone) and on TOP of that they refuse to refund items. That is just nonsensical espacially when all it would require is a few minutes. Most people wouldn't be so harsh on Jagex if they just admit their mistakes. Granted there is a certain sector that *will* always whine, but that is a minority, the vast majority will gladly give Jagex more respect and leeway if Jagex smartens up.

[aspeeder]

I don't think Jagex is "lazy" or they "don't care." I still think that the QA isn't meeting up to past standards as far as bugs are concerned. Personally, I think the game needs to be stalled for a bit and take it back down to code to rework it. It's far too complex and a giant jumble right now.

 

 

 

That would be the biggest upgrade we've ever seen. :P

 

Basically just a defrag for the game code :P , that might be a fix for a lot of potential bugs but if the player base would be significantly reduced because of down time it still wouldn't be worth it for JaGeX.

 

OT: Very nice read, I never really doubted that the Q&A people know what they were doing (However, I am also one of the "smarter" people who waits for a bit after the update :D ).

[Omali]

Pretty much, for a long while now, you unncessarily defend Jagex and do so belligerently--refusing to hear anything to the contrary--this has happened on more than one occasion. You are the reason that quite a few intelligent posters refrain from posting on these forums; some people have better things to do than deal with trolls.

 

 

 

I assume that list of "intelligent posters" doesn't include yourself. If "intelligent posters" can't take criticism and don't post because of it, they're not intelligent enough to back up what they say, or don't have the spine to do so. Either way, it's a sign that clearly their ideas need to be though out more so they have more confidence in them.

 

 

 

Care to explain the fact that a significant portion of MA wasn't even PLAYABLE or BH/PVP(in the first few hours you weren't able to attack others. Yeah, I accept the fact that Jagex can't be perfect, and nor have I ever expected them to be such, however, that doesn't mean I am going to be close minded and trust them blindly like you do. Yeah, often there are honest mistakes, and then there are instances where it should be plainly obvious that they are BS'ing. Either that or I guess they didn't bother to test out 75% of MA and the most basic thing in BH; attacking people.

 

 

 

The issue here is that I don't trust Jagex blindly. I've called them out multiple times, such as when they took so long to respond to the bug that caused monsters to not retaliate, and I've called them out A LOT on their policy of not returning items, not because of the policy itself, but because Jagex fluctuates between "We can't tell if you lost items" and "we can tell everything about your account", such as in that one poster's thread on the RSOF (the guy who lost 350 mil). I've knocked Jagex in the past for borderline-moronic posts by some of the Jagex Mods (Just a month or so ago, when two Jmods claimed Swiftkit was banned from use), truly useless updates (Strongholds, Gnome copters, Quickchat worlds that literally cater to <13 year olds, etc).

 

 

 

For as much as Jagex pisses me off on occasion, I still expect constructive criticism. "QA sucks", "Jagex sucks", Nazi analogies, and other such are not constructive, they help nothing. There have been plenty of people complaining on this thread that I've agreed with, that have offered solutions such as test servers, which I've been pushing for for years.

 

 

 

 

 

Considering the way they handle their CS, and the way they treat their customers even while admitting that they were at fault(350M: "I know more about your account than you do." "Sorry I guess you were right, you DID lose your items due to it being OUR fault." "You still won't be getting your items back however an apology from me is so rare that you should be glad for getting just that".). Sorry but you are going to have come with a really solid argument if you intend to convince anyone that Jagex doesn't loathe its customers. Add on top of that--NO appeals if you are suspected of autoing(despite there being false bannings about this in the fast), I am all ears if you have anything to say to the contrary. Simply stating "They don't hate you" isn't enough.

 

 

 

I'm going to make an attempt to calm the hostility between us by agreeing with your here. Jagex's customer service, in the six years I've been playing, is akin to going to the Department of Motor Vehicles in order to get a tooth pulled with no anesthetic. I've heard horror stories about companies in the past, but Jagex excels. In fact, they took slightly less than a year to answer one of my previous queries several years ago.

 

 

 

Some time after I first joined, I received a blackmark for "Jagex Staff Impersonation," because I reported someone and, after the usual "who cares if he evaded the censor?" (Which he was doing to hurl heavy abuse at a newer player) I said "Tough. If you'd read the rules you'd know Jagex doesn't tolerate it."

 

 

 

That is simply complete nonsense; so now you are claiming that the player is at fault for taking items to what was supposed to be a safe minigame? Basically what you are saying is you should know better than to trust Jagex with decent QA on the day of the update--while at the same time you are coming to their defence in classical sheeple style.

 

 

 

I'm not saying the player is at fault for losing his items, I'm saying it was a stupid move. You should know better than to trust any company on day-1 of launch. Every MMO company up to Blizzard with World of Warcraft faces big issues with big updates. One thing that allows WoW to have less of these massive bugs is the fact that all of it is stress tested before it goes "live" by players on test realms.

 

 

 

As a more general comment: It makes little sense for Jagex to engage in such business practices--something most other business don't do. It isn't necessarily their QA that is scary, it is their response. If you are gonna have a 'no-reimbursement policy', your QA better be robust and nearly flawless. What is frustrating is that Jagex has a POOR track record/share of mistakes of QA(just look at this year alone) and on TOP of that they refuse to refund items. That is just nonsensical espacially when all it would require is a few minutes. Most people wouldn't be so harsh on Jagex if they just admit their mistakes. Granted there is a certain sector that *will* always whine, but that is a minority, the vast majority will gladly give Jagex more respect and leeway if Jagex smartens up.

 

 

 

I have a huge divide with Jagex when it comes to their reimbursment policy. I think it is utterly unfair how many incidents there have been in the past where players have died and lost items due to their bugs, for starters the Lumbridge Caves bug that instantly killed players. How about players who gained massive amounts of gold or experience due to bugs, but at the time weren't seen as "malicious enough" to receive a ban, or at worst a slap on the wrist? It was already said, but Jagex has always been somewhat smug with their customer service. Because Runescript is an in-house developed engine, Runescape always seems to be last to the party when it comes to features, such as Player Owned Houses, the GE, clans, etc.

 

 

 

I will readily admit that this year has been insane with launch day bugs, and that's exactly why I suggest people to stay away from them on launch day, or at least don't take anything valuable. As much as I hate to say it, I'm essentially running my Runescape subscription on the fact that 5 bucks a month isn't a noticeable drop from my bank account, otherwise I use it exclusively for FunOrb (and Planet FunOrb). The best part of August, for me, came from deciphering the notice board in the Chaos Elemental letter. Other than that I find myself logging into Runescape every week or so, generally for only an hour.

 

 

 

For the fact that this is an "upgrade" year, I'd much rather see Jagex doing some real upgrades. The logout timer, random events, price checker, quest list, route-finding, offense system, dungeon maps, spam filter, energy, and related updates are what I'm talking about. The kind of thing people have been asking for for YEARS. What they shouldn't be doing is month-long teasers, like removing the summoning icon for a "new icon" when they could have waited for the actual update to remove it. That was July 8th, almost 2 months ago if anyone is counting.

 

 

 

Oh dear, I've gotten a little ranty tonight.

[Cabbage_Boii]

Interesting pictures. Has any mods transformed like that in actual servers? That'd be interesting to see.. a bunch of jmod seagulls flying around or something.

 

 

 

I would love to see that O.O

 

 

 

interesting read, very well put together.

[Yoko Kurama]

I assume that list of "intelligent posters" doesn't include yourself. If "intelligent posters" can't take criticism and don't post because of it, they're not intelligent enough to back up what they say, or don't have the spine to do so. Either way, it's a sign that clearly their ideas need to be though out more so they have more confidence in them.

 

 

 

Whether I am an intelligent poster or not, I will leave that for others to decide. There is a fine line between constructive criticism and trolling, you seem to border of the latter, I am not sure if you realize that or not. If you had done the former, I am sure that would have only *encouraged* such posters to be an active part of this community. I will give you an example: A while back--after PVP worlds were released and Jagex turned their eyes onto BH, someone posted a thread where he said that Jagex was looking to that away the 'classical loot' system and replace it with something similar to PVP. You responded saying how the thread was pointless and he should have never bothered posting--and low and behold--what happened a while later? Precisely as he predicted. I don't agree with the positions that you assume--but I welcome them, I enjoy civil discussions, it is your argumentation that I refuse to welcome and that is also the case for others.

 

 

 

 

 

For as much as Jagex pisses me off on occasion, I still expect constructive criticism. "QA sucks", "Jagex sucks", Nazi analogies, and other such are not constructive, they help nothing. There have been plenty of people complaining on this thread that I've agreed with, that have offered solutions such as test servers, which I've been pushing for for years.

 

 

 

While I agree that often criticism isn't as constructive as I would prefer it to be, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with "QA/Jagex sucks", with the way they have been lately, it isn't necessarily a fictional statement. Jagex refuses to acknowledge that their QA and CS is in major need of improvement, and accepting that is the first step, when people make such statements, they are acknowledging such problems, and eventually when enough of these people make such comments, maybe Jagex will do something.(This blog is probably a result of such comments--never in the past have they done anything of the sort.) I just don't find the kind of comments you make to these sort of people(usually smarky) to be very constructive, espacially considering many players are rather young and this is their first time as real 'customers' and they are just frustrated. Jagex's CS treats all of their customers as if they are children, and so when said customers are frustrated, they respond in the manner they are accustomed to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to make an attempt to calm the hostility between us by agreeing with your here. Jagex's customer service, in the six years I've been playing, is akin to going to the Department of Motor Vehicles in order to get a tooth pulled with no anesthetic. I've heard horror stories about companies in the past, but Jagex excels. In fact, they took slightly less than a year to answer one of my previous queries several years ago.

 

 

 

Some time after I first joined, I received a blackmark for "Jagex Staff Impersonation," because I reported someone and, after the usual "who cares if he evaded the censor?" (Which he was doing to hurl heavy abuse at a newer player) I said "Tough. If you'd read the rules you'd know Jagex doesn't tolerate it."

 

 

 

I agree, it is simply your arugmentation that I sometimes don't agree with. Now, for this discussion, you have been *very* civil, and I do appreciate that.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying the player is at fault for losing his items, I'm saying it was a stupid move. You should know better than to trust any company on day-1 of launch. Every MMO company up to Blizzard with World of Warcraft faces big issues with big updates. One thing that allows WoW to have less of these massive bugs is the fact that all of it is stress tested before it goes "live" by players on test realms.

 

 

 

Well in a way you pretty much are saying it is the player's fault. I mean it *shouldn't* have been a stupid move to make considering that he was in a safe minigame. 99% of companies actually have decent CS and they *will* reimburse you for their mistakes whether it is day 1 or not.

 

 

 

Even WoW day one or not, goes out of their way to reimburse you. Granted RS is updated bi-weekly, but the quality of updates is horrendous. Often, we just get some standard "Messenger-boy" quest, that is designed for lower levels which most lower levels don't do because they have too much content on their hands already, and most Higher levels are unsatisfied and after the 15-30 minutes required on the quest, no one ever looks back on it. Most people would prefer some meaningful content and I assure you, they would be willing to wait. The problem is, Jagex gives such people the cold shoulder, and then it leads to other problems(faulty content because they would much rather dish out some filler quest bi-weekly rather than giving something more concrete). I don't know where I am going with this, but I am simply saying their whole business model is rather messed up, and the core of that is their attitude.

 

 

 

Another point I would like to make in order to illustrate that the player wasn't even 'stupid' is the fact that Jagex is super deceptive when it comes to their policies. For instance, for YEARS, in their terms and service(which I realize is subject to change) they clearly stated that they would never get rid of free trade and influence such things--which in turn encouraged people to build characters like stakers and what not and invest thousands of hours into the game(something most people would not have done had they known from the start that such restrictive(some of which unnecessary--we can debate that if you want). They only removed that from their terms and conditions sometime in 2008--after someone from Truthscape informed them that they could face legal consequences for that. On top of that, their 'no reimbursement' policy isn't common knowledge(hence why updates are still trying out updates on first day) and the general expectation(from any customer to and provider) is that if its your fault, you fix it. Then you have Jagex's official policy, which explicitely states that if the problem occured from a circumstance under their control, that they would reimburse you(vaguely in such terms). So not only do they lie, but it isn't really the players fault or stupidity. So that is why I disagree with you calling the user stupid because it kind of borders on the blame the victim mentality.

 

 

 

 

 

"Jagex wrote:

 

Functioning of Jagex Products

 

We will do our best to maintain operation of Jagex Products and rectify faults as quickly as possible. We may have to suspend operation of a Jagex Product without notice for repair, maintenance, improvement or other technical reason. If so, we will do our best to ensure that the suspension is as short as possible. We cannot accept responsibility for such suspensions or for any interruption or error caused by circumstances outside our reasonable control.

 

 

 

We cannot guarantee that Jagex Products will work with any particular computer equipment or in conjunction with any particular software or connectivity services. We do not accept responsibility for such equipment, software or services."

 

 

 

QA and testing is *not* out of their reasonable control.

 

 

 

 

 

Because Runescript is an in-house developed engine, Runescape always seems to be last to the party when it comes to features, such as Player Owned Houses, the GE, clans, etc.

 

 

 

I agree, espacially considering that some players often have in-depth suggestions with all of the content planned out--with only the coding remaining. Jagex ignores such players and often when they adapt such ideas(CW-which was a player suggested idea at first), they completely change it into some other monstrosity and then they refuse to acknowledge the players. Simply put they are dishonest and uncooperative and it seems they aren't really as interested in maintaining their product as they should be. For instance, a couple of months before the trade limits, with the removal of Staking and the addition of Grand Exchange, someone questioned Jagex on that, and Jagex *lied* about having any intent on removing free trade. They kept their customers in the dark and lied to them. Honesty is another big concern. When you have a company that is dishonest and unwilling to cooperate, it is no wonder why we are in the mess we are now and why we are always the last party to anything. Many players have even suggested many constructive suggestions to the trade limits, yet they go unheeded. Jagex keeps its players out of the dark, and instead of taking suggestions into consideration before updates, they take it only when updates prove to be resounding failures and they have no choice.

 

 

 

 

For the fact that this is an "upgrade" year, I'd much rather see Jagex doing some real upgrades. The logout timer, random events, price checker, quest list, route-finding, offense system, dungeon maps, spam filter, energy, and related updates are what I'm talking about. The kind of thing people have been asking for for YEARS. What they shouldn't be doing is month-long teasers, like removing the summoning icon for a "new icon" when they could have waited for the actual update to remove it. That was July 8th, almost 2 months ago if anyone is counting.

 

Oh dear, I've gotten a little ranty tonight.

 

 

 

Well, I haven't been as pleased with this year as I thought. Upgrades, should have meant fixing old content, not *just* minor glitches. Most updates weren't necessarily what the players asked for. However, I will add that I thoroughly enjoyed this week's update, and while it was glitch filled--since it wasn't anything game breaking--I am not really concerned, on top of that, it WAS something the players asked for. However, this year has still been lackluster. There is a rather interesting and comprehensive list of 'Little jobs that could make a big difference' on Truthscape, I imagine that is what a lot of players would like to see. The things in that list are the kind of things that I would like to see Jagex approach constructive sites(TS and others) about.

 

 

 

Not as ranty as me! :lol:

[Omali]

Whether I am an intelligent poster or not, I will leave that for others to decide. There is a fine line between constructive criticism and trolling, you seem to border of the latter, I am not sure if you realize that or not. If you had done the former, I am sure that would have only *encouraged* such posters to be an active part of this community. I will give you an example: A while back--after PVP worlds were released and Jagex turned their eyes onto BH, someone posted a thread where he said that Jagex was looking to that away the 'classical loot' system and replace it with something similar to PVP. You responded saying how the thread was pointless and he should have never bothered posting--and low and behold--what happened a while later? Precisely as he predicted. I don't agree with the positions that you assume--but I welcome them, I enjoy civil discussions, it is your argumentation that I refuse to welcome and that is also the case for others.

 

 

 

Trolling? No. I argue like a politician, so be glad it's not European Parliament otherwise there'd be punches flying around. I know pretty much every cheap shot in the books, not to mention how to wiggle out of any liability (I watched every Alberto Gonzalez interrogation). I can't remember the thread you refer to, however I should point out my one month warranty for anything I say.

 

 

 

 

 

While I agree that often criticism isn't as constructive as I would prefer it to be, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with "QA/Jagex sucks", with the way they have been lately, it isn't necessarily a fictional statement. Jagex refuses to acknowledge that their QA and CS is in major need of improvement, and accepting that is the first step, when people make such statements, they are acknowledging such problems, and eventually when enough of these people make such comments, maybe Jagex will do something.(This blog is probably a result of such comments--never in the past have they done anything of the sort.) I just don't find the kind of comments you make to these sort of people(usually smarky) to be very constructive, espacially considering many players are rather young and this is their first time as real 'customers' and they are just frustrated. Jagex's CS treats all of their customers as if they are children, and so when said customers are frustrated, they respond in the manner they are accustomed to.

 

 

 

QA sucks is generally used as a gateway to more unconstructive criticism. What I can't stand is people who do the "but it doesn't matter, because Jagex always has and always will get it wrong" line of posts. Those are the people I try to focus on when I use my patented "get out" dog/frog. I'm a little blunt in the way I respond much of the time, but hey; I grew up in an FBI household where the best treatment for misbehavior was a belt, wooden cooking spoon, frying pan, essentially whatever was in hand at the time. I think my words are pretty soft by comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

Well in a way you pretty much are saying it is the player's fault. I mean it *shouldn't* have been a stupid move to make considering that he was in a safe minigame. 99% of companies actually have decent CS and they *will* reimburse you for their mistakes whether it is day 1 or not.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's his fault. It's like someone driving their Porche to the Bronx, then getting it stolen. They didn't deserve to get their car stolen, but driving a Porche into the Bronx is a stupid idea.

 

 

 

Even WoW day one or not, goes out of their way to reimburse you. Granted RS is updated bi-weekly, but the quality of updates is horrendous. Often, we just get some standard "Messenger-boy" quest, that is designed for lower levels which most lower levels don't do because they have too much content on their hands already, and most Higher levels are unsatisfied and after the 15-30 minutes required on the quest, no one ever looks back on it. Most people would prefer some meaningful content and I assure you, they would be willing to wait. The problem is, Jagex gives such people the cold shoulder, and then it leads to other problems(faulty content because they would much rather dish out some filler quest bi-weekly rather than giving something more concrete). I don't know where I am going with this, but I am simply saying their whole business model is rather messed up, and the core of that is their attitude.

 

 

 

Wow does. Blizzard also makes more in a month than Jagex makes in a year, and employs something like 4 times the number of employees. FunOrb's team is 33 people, for example. The issue with the updates is that Jagex is listening to the crybabies who don't care about quality updates if they have to wait for them longer than normal. Look at Hunter, where there were riots every day because the update didn't come out on THAT monday, even though Jagex never promised it would come out on a Monday.

 

 

 

I've said this a couple times before, but I'll say it again. I think that this "upgrade year" is a hoax, a coverup. People have already said that they did more "upgrade" updates last year, alongside normal content, yet this year they can barely manage a short quest after taking a two week break. Mod MMG made a point of referencing to a project that originally was supposed to be its own project entirely, but was ultimately decided that they would add it to Runescape. I think they're working on this update, and that's why they used the "upgrade year" as a cover.

 

 

 

I know its wishful thinking, but considering the way Jagex works, I have high doubts that these bugs are being caused by small updates, and that there's something much bigger coming in the future either late this year, or early next year.

 

 

 

On top of that, their 'no reimbursement' policy isn't common knowledge(hence why updates are still trying out updates on first day) and the general expectation(from any customer to and provider) is that if its your fault, you fix it. Then you have Jagex's official policy, which explicitely states that if the problem occured from a circumstance under their control, that they would reimburse you(vaguely in such terms). So not only do they lie, but it isn't really the players fault or stupidity. So that is why I disagree with you calling the user stupid because it kind of borders on the blame the victim mentality.

 

 

 

Jagex doesn't make it clear, no. They never really have. And again, I'd like to state I'm not calling the user stupid, just his action.

 

 

 

 

 

"Jagex wrote:

 

Functioning of Jagex Products

 

We will do our best to maintain operation of Jagex Products and rectify faults as quickly as possible. We may have to suspend operation of a Jagex Product without notice for repair, maintenance, improvement or other technical reason. If so, we will do our best to ensure that the suspension is as short as possible. We cannot accept responsibility for such suspensions or for any interruption or error caused by circumstances outside our reasonable control.

 

 

 

I agree, espacially considering that some players often have in-depth suggestions with all of the content planned out--with only the coding remaining. Jagex ignores such players and often when they adapt such ideas(CW-which was a player suggested idea at first), they completely change it into some other monstrosity and then they refuse to acknowledge the players. Simply put they are dishonest and uncooperative and it seems they aren't really as interested in maintaining their product as they should be. For instance, a couple of months before the trade limits, with the removal of Staking and the addition of Grand Exchange, someone questioned Jagex on that, and Jagex *lied* about having any intent on removing free trade. They kept their customers in the dark and lied to them. Honesty is another big concern. When you have a company that is dishonest and unwilling to cooperate, it is no wonder why we are in the mess we are now and why we are always the last party to anything. Many players have even suggested many constructive suggestions to the trade limits, yet they go unheeded. Jagex keeps its players out of the dark, and instead of taking suggestions into consideration before updates, they take it only when updates prove to be resounding failures and they have no choice.

 

 

 

Jagex has been dishonest and uncooperative for years. Just think of how many people have been banned in the past for referencing to Tip.It or other now-accepted fansites. It took Jagex close to 9 years to stop banning people for referencing to fansites, and Andrew had the embarrasing moment several years ago when he actually threatened to sue Tip.It for posting an article about their messed up banning system.

 

 

 

The last time a company lied about a massive change up until the day it went live was Sony Online Entertainment with Star Wars Galaxies, and that game is on its last leg. I doubt Jagex'll die anytime soon from those who do complain, but despite Mark Gerhard doing what he can to increase player>Jagex relations, there are still stupid moves like closing down Bounty Hunter for several weeks, and removing the summoning tab two months before putting in the replacement that was promised two months previously.

 

 

 

Well, I haven't been as pleased with this year as I thought. Upgrades, should have meant fixing old content, not *just* minor glitches. Most updates weren't necessarily what the players asked for. However, I will add that I thoroughly enjoyed this week's update, and while it was glitch filled--since it wasn't anything game breaking--I am not really concerned, on top of that, it WAS something the players asked for. However, this year has still been lackluster. There is a rather interesting and comprehensive list of 'Little jobs that could make a big difference' on Truthscape, I imagine that is what a lot of players would like to see. The things in that list are the kind of things that I would like to see Jagex approach constructive sites(TS and others) about.

 

 

 

My reaction to this year's updates has been (because I'm contractually obligated to include at least 5 emotes per post: .............

 

 

 

Not as ranty as me! :lol:

 

 

 

And that is why I love me some Zenaku post.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

This is going to be very short considering the length of the great debate posts being made.

 

 

 

But can we all agree that Jagex is notorious for not admitting fault or their shortcomings? It was much worse in the past, but they still try to put over on people that if something goes wrong, it's the player's fault. They also tend to rewrite history a bit.

[Troacctid]

I don't know about bugs, but I'd be okay with it if the QA team spent a little more time looking at the non-technical balance and quality of the updates. Obviously they can't catch everything that could be bothersome, but it would be great if they did more testing of new content to look for ways it could be better gameplay-wise. For example, if the new Myreque quest has a section where you need a hammer to fix a ladder or something in Meiyerditch, they should make sure there's a hammer spawn nearby so we don't need to go all the way back to Burgh de Rott or further to find one, then walk all the way back. If part of the reward adds a new event to Temple Trekking, the QA team should make sure that the new event has rewards that make you happy to encounter the new enemies, rather than a monster like vampyre juvinates that are a huge hassle to kill and have no drops. If the reward includes a new weapon that's especially effective on undead, they should try out that weapon to make sure it isn't just a weaker version of a whip even against monsters weak against it. And so on.

[JustAGamer]

For example, if the new Myreque quest has a section where you need a hammer to fix a ladder or something in Meiyerditch, they should make sure there's a hammer spawn nearby so we don't need to go all the way back to Burgh de Rott or further to find one, then walk all the way back.

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, That's why said team came out with rewards such as the quest kit from M.A., or the Rogue's kit from the Rogue's Den. Part of the nature of a quest is the concept of being prepared.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree it can be a pain when a quest is tedious to the point of exasperation, but M.A. showed that they sympathized with such a plight and were offering solutions to remedy it. Instead of holding you by the hand through the entire quest, they are giving you the tools, provided you have the forsight, to minimize such happenings.

[Troacctid]

[hide=JustAGamer wrote]

For example, if the new Myreque quest has a section where you need a hammer to fix a ladder or something in Meiyerditch, they should make sure there's a hammer spawn nearby so we don't need to go all the way back to Burgh de Rott or further to find one, then walk all the way back.

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, That's why said team came out with rewards such as the quest kit from M.A., or the Rogue's kit from the Rogue's Den. Part of the nature of a quest is the concept of being prepared.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree it can be a pain when a quest is tedious to the point of exasperation, but M.A. showed that they sympathized with such a plight and were offering solutions to remedy it. Instead of holding you by the hand through the entire quest, they are giving you the tools, provided you have the forsight, to minimize such happenings.[/hide]

 

The best quests will eliminate or at least minimize any need to wander all the way to a bank and back for some small pile of coins or a chisel. Quests, ideally, are not just fetching items.

 

 

 

There are multiple solutions for the required items problem. Fremennik Isles had not one but two banks, as well as plenty of resources for gathering any materials you need on the spot. In Pyre Need had an NPC who would kindly provide you with the minor tools you needed. Curse of Arrav had Ali the Wise give you a complete rundown of all the things you would need in general terms, so that you could be sure you weren't forgetting anything. I can't think of a specific example, but some quests will have a plank and hammer spawn when you need to repair a bridge or whatever.

 

 

 

By far the worst solution, though, is to leave players to fend for themselves, and hope that they will deduce by the firemaking level requirement to start the quest that a tinderbox will be needed at some point. I've done a lot of quests by now, and I've learned that if you need to have done The Restless Ghost for the new quest, you'd better bring along your Ghostspeak Amulet. But sometimes that just isn't enough.

[Yoko Kurama]

Virtually every issue brought up here is one to which the appropriate response should be "then FIX it."

 

 

 

It's just asinine to list problems one has as if telling us why they are failing absolves them from fixing those issues.

 

 

 

If the incongruity between WIP and RC causes problems, then they should create an RC environment for final stage testing before releasing content.

 

 

 

If they are pressed for "time" on releasing content, they should better predict how much time it will take next time, and delay the release of their content until it works properly.

 

 

 

Under "bugs missed" this guy talks about how cloaks and helms don't always render properly. Big f-ing deal. When was the last time players got upset and ranted about a cloak looking bad? The stuff that upsets players are the bugs that destroy the game and rob them of millions of coins, or give unfair advantage to others for millions of coins. How convenient that those examples are left out of the description of bugs that are "occasionally" missed.

 

 

 

--

 

 

 

I don't derive my views from the fact that I spend my day job managing things like content release for a company, but rather from common sense. Nonetheless, it continues to appall me both as someone involved in what I do and as an intelligent human being the poor quality of operations over at Jagex. I have come to the conclusion that their design process is based purely on what is needed to stay afloat as a business, and not at all on some higher-level purpose like pride in workmanship or a demand for quality.

 

 

 

In my line of work, I sell products to business intelligence companies, academia and high-level analysts. I could not "get away" with the pathetic level of design quality that Jagex does; if I told my clients that our newest release had a bug simply because "we didn't have time to fix it" they would stop doing business with me. But to claim that I care about the quality of what I do because of that relationship is equally ludicrous: I care about the quality of what I do because I have some pride in my work and actually care about my clientele. I don't think that would change if those people happened to be children that would continue to pay for my product long after I've stopped putting any effort into it. Apparently that's not the case for Jagex, however.

 

 

 

---Sir V.

 

 

 

^ Abuse of mathematics right there.

 

 

 

A well-written game engine should not require much debugging OR coding; the way that I conceive the RS Game Engine to be coded, whipping up an entirely new area and spawning monsters should take no more than 5 minutes even with a half-assed design GUI. A quest like WGS should take no more than 2 hours to code (rudimentary dialogue, triggers that advance the storyline, NPC spawns, areas, and reward.) An achievement diary is possibly the easiest update to code; it probably takes all of 1 can of beer to get a working one.

 

 

 

As I expected, QA works on many issues simultaneously. Naturally, when their changes are compiled together, conflicts may result. They only mention testing each update once in WIP and once in RC, but if that's all they do and they don't test for code collisions, problems result.

 

 

 

(Note: This is just coding, given all the design elements. Coding also does not mean that corresponding 3D models, cutscenes, etc. will be there. I suspect that most of QA's time is spent on graphical issues.)

 

 

 

EDIT> For proof of claims, see [Caution: Jagex Rule Violation].

 

 

 

-----Doomedrusher

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.truthscape.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4623