Should Tip.it limit/censor what people can say?

[stonewall337]

Ahh the irony. Even in this thread mod's are removing comments they don't like, but which aren't offensive.

 

Freedom of speech is a right, freedom to not be offended isn't.

[Earth_Poet]

-yes, content-less praise is spam.

 

My comparisons were with the extremities of free speech, as it is there the boundries are neutrally descernable. I personally believe the boundries of publication lie where there is a utilitarian purpose for a post, other than "using my right". This logic emnates partially from the existance of moral boundries more absolute, thus my comparisons function as a basis for further presicion in where the boundries lie (in my opinion at least). They were not intended as direct comparsions, and as an intelligent reader, i think you understood that.

 

yes, there are real responsibilities that come with free speech. Especially so, when concerning publication: you have an ethical and moral responsibility to ensure that the content of what you publish has meaning for others. If everyone were to excersise their right of free speech every time they had a strong opinion on something, the asides of monologue would stifle all dialogue. Each and every one of us has a responsibility to excersise our right when it is important, and has effect.

 

Now every publication has editors. The editors have a responsibility to ensure that their publication serves a purpose. Thus, our editors, the moderators, are responsible for moderating the forums such that posts are useful to other people. Yes, this is at the discretion of tip.it, but there are arguably some standards that are universal. There are arguably posts that are spam, many of these only posting an opinion, with no attempt at dialogue.

 

It is the responsibility of the moderators to ensure that the forums serve a purpose, and cater to a constructive community.

 

The boundaries of free speech are far more liberal than where you would choose to impose them. Inappropriate and meaningless are not synonymous, which means it still doesn't justify your argument. Who is going to decide what has meaning? You? We decide for ourselves what has meaning and what doesn't. Even what you consider pointless bemoaning can be meaningful data. It represents an individual's point-of-view.

 

Mass communication is in a slightly different category from casual conversation, and in this context I'd place the message boards in the latter. Even still, a publication decides what their individual purpose is: to inform, to entertain, to instruct, etc. The individual publication decides for themselves what's important, and it usually boils down to who their target audience is.

 

The Tip.It forums is a different entity. It's a place for the Runescape community to congregate and express themselves as individuals. The level of moderating is superior to what you would find at the RSOF. Sometimes, I feel the mods here go a bit too far. How far are you expecting them to go? When censorship goes too far, then you have no dialogue.

[tortilliachp]

 

The boundaries of free speech are far more liberal than where you would choose to impose them. Inappropriate and meaningless are not synonymous, which means it still doesn't justify your argument. Who is going to decide what has meaning? You? We decide for ourselves what has meaning and what doesn't. Even what you consider pointless bemoaning can be meaningful data. It represents an individual's point-of-view.

 

Mass communication is in a slightly different category from casual conversation, and in this context I'd place the message boards in the latter. Even still, a publication decides what their individual purpose is: to inform, to entertain, to instruct, etc. The individual publication decides for themselves what's important, and it usually boils down to who their target audience is.

 

The Tip.It forums is a different entity. It's a place for the Runescape community to congregate and express themselves as individuals. The level of moderating is superior to what you would find at the RSOF. Sometimes, I feel the mods here go a bit too far. How far are you expecting them to go? When censorship goes too far, then you have no dialogue.

 

I see you've been here since 2007. That means you were not here in the time of tip.it's greatness or golden age.

 

That was a time when rants were located in the rants forum, and general discussions were taking place in the general discussion thread. That is a time before many of the constructive, creative posters were lost to other fansites with better moderation.

 

You haven't experienced that, or the immense qualitative, and quantitative difference in posts. Yes, things are okay now, but the potential of tip.it is so great, that's been shown in the past, but the increase in users was much greater than the increase in moderators, and things got out of control. From that time, many mods held the view that moderation wasn't going ahead as they wished.

 

I have few posts, I'm a lurker, and often i just haven't bothered to log in. I've been following the tip.it forums close to 6 years now (lurking before i created my account). In the past, moderation has increased quality. why shouldn't this be the case for the future as well? as you point out, RSOF isn't moderated enough. that was also not an issue if we look further back (early 2003), but then those boards attained many more active users. The RSOF activity has decreased drastically. Threads like the legendary "future updates speculation", have all pretty much died in a torrent of unneccessary spam. dialogue has been simplified on future updates to a "supporters list" and an "opposers" list. people are uttering their opinion for the sake of uttering it, and that is not a type of dialogue.

 

I believe in common sense. Moderators are smart people. You know you're simplifying and creating a theoretical situation when you say " what you believe is spam, can be important to other people". If i post (in a general discussions thread): "i don't like this update." How many people is that beneficial to, how many people find that helpful in the discussion? How many people find that constructive, inspirational? How many people find that giving, and meaningful to have in a topic? How many people feel that's a statement worth of having to scroll past a bright and flashy signature? How many people will only scroll past?

 

I believe in common sense. You can hold all the principles you like, but that's not pragmatic in the real world. Moderators are ingelligent people, and they know what such an astounding majorityof the community consider spam that it should be removed. Yes, that will require a little more time when going through threads, but that's what you sign up for when becoming a moderator after all. there are plenty of people willing to take your spot if you don't perform the duties.

 

Again, principles and ideology work well in theory. Consider communism, a great idea, it simply doesn't work in reality. Just as your arguments juxtaposed with reality, history, and the real demographic who use these forums. just consider the position in which people respond (off-topically) to me_hate_libs' posts in general discussions. Is that the way you wish the tip.it forums to progress?

[Earth_Poet]

You mean that great era where a handful of Tip.It mods managed to drive almost the entire clan community away? I think that was a time that perfectly sums up my point.

 

When it comes to the players, there was no golden era in Runescape. There are too many people who have it in their head that things were so much better "back in the old days", but of course those old days are usually relative to when they first started playing. I won't abandon my principles so we can create your ideologic vision of what Tip.It used to be.

[tortilliachp]

You mean that great era where a handful of Tip.It mods managed to drive almost the entire clan community away? I think that was a time that perfectly sums up my point.

 

When it comes to the players, there was no golden era in Runescape. There are too many people who have it in their head that things were so much better "back in the old days", but of course those old days are usually relative to when they first started playing. I won't abandon my principles so we can create your ideologic vision of what Tip.It used to be.

 

 

the clan community has never relied on tip.it it's always been centered around runescape community. That battle was lost before it began.

 

there has been no golden era in runescape. There has been a golden era of tip.it, which is what i claimed.

 

I don't think you're the one to decide anyway, this happens to be a discussion under the "feedback" part of the tip.it forums.

 

sadly, with these new boards, nothing older than 2006 exists in the general discussions board. Otherwise, i'd tell you to read the forums of the past.

 

why aren't the tip.it forums as successful as it was in the past, today then? If you can't provide an alternative explanation, i suggest you re-examine my theory.

 

please get some facts from the past if you wish to argue further.

[Earth_Poet]

the clan community has never relied on tip.it it's always been centered around runescape community. That battle was lost before it began.

 

there has been no golden era in runescape. There has been a golden era of tip.it, which is what i claimed.

 

I don't think you're the one to decide anyway, this happens to be a discussion under the "feedback" part of the tip.it forums.

 

sadly, with these new boards, nothing older than 2006 exists in the general discussions board. Otherwise, i'd tell you to read the forums of the past.

 

why aren't the tip.it forums as successful as it was in the past, today then? If you can't provide an alternative explanation, i suggest you re-examine my theory.

 

please get some facts from the past if you wish to argue further.

 

So I'm the only one who is required to provide facts in this discussion.

 

1) I don't even know what it is that you are asking ME to prove. This isn't about me, or you for that matter.

 

2) You are the one making claims that tip.it is worse today than ever, and that things need to change. Where are your facts?

 

3) You might want to do a little fact-checking on your own last post.

 

I don't appreciate being talked down to either, as if I'm a child who hasn't been here long enough to know what he's talking about. But you know what? You enjoy your little discussion on your own then.

[Zierro]

defending free speech as a right is good, that does not mean the public should endure the destructive use of it. Because you have a right to burn flags, make hateful religious cartoons or bemoan every update does not mean tip.it should publish those views or endorse those actions

 

If somebody says something criticizing that you don't like, you have the ability to criticize their criticism - to point out why they are wrong. It's a beautiful thing. When you disallow criticisms, right or wrong, you're just simply hindering the communication process.

 

I can guarantee you that the tip.it community will not regain the sophistication, activity, vibrance and friendly community since its foundation through 2004 without more rigorous moderation.

 

Gtfo elitist. You may take that as offensive spam, but it's actually illustrating a point. TIF is fine. And just because somebody has only been here since 2007 doesn't mean they can't read the posts from before they signed up, which I ironically find less interesting than the modern day stuff. Maybe it's just because I know the modern users more so I'm more comfortable with the forums nowadays. That might be the reason you're so fond of the older forums as well. I'm not saying the forums are perfect, but I'm very happy with them. It's a great medium for expressing ideas, and what you're proposing pretty much goes against that.

 

If the destructive moaners leave, the rest of the community is better off, and new users are more likely to stay.

 

I find this to be quite an unfounded claim. Perhaps new users are more likely to stay in a forum that advocate destructive moaning, because new users are generally those types of people? It's really anyone's guess. Also, who's to say that having more users is a good thing?

 

PS: You keep making a point of moderators being intelligent people. I'm not saying that they're stupid or anything, but they are human and have been known to make mistakes. Just because a moderator labels something as spam does not automatically make it so.

[das]

A new challenger approaches.

 

off-topic posts should simply be deleted. That is what moderation means.

Oh god no, - a hard line approach like that nearly killed tif in 2004, Delete is a naughty tool for mods to use. We have a no delete policy.

 

I feel moderators can show a harder line in moderating, the tip.it community would benefit, and show greater maturity.

 

 

I've always felt we should be less of a hardass and more customer support like.

 

 

Views on updates shall not ever be limited speechwise here, such of an idea goes agaisnt my core beliefs and i'd walk before imposing "Speech rules" - this isn't 1984 kids, or scapeboard. as long as people are offensive idiots and curse like sailors or the sort, i'm fine with people pissing on new updates, because you know what i say. "WE PAY, WE PK"

 

I can guarantee you that the tip.it community will not regain the sophistication, activity, vibrance and friendly community since its foundation through 2004 without more rigorous moderation.

from 2001-2003 - Tip.it had very interactive and engaged moderators and rose to the top, from 2004 onward for awhile it was bloody horrible

 

 

I see you've been here since 2007. That means you were not here in the time of tip.it's greatness or golden age.

 

I've been here since 2001

 

the clan community has never relied on tip.it it's always been centered around runescape community. That battle was lost before it began.

 

Before RSC there was rsnewera and to a degree camelot, though more really for high levels and not clans, tip.it was the mecca from 01-03 really. Pre Scapeboard.

 

 

Ahh the irony. Even in this thread mod's are removing comments they don't like, but which aren't offensive.

 

If you feel a post has been removed unfairly on this thread - please let me know and i'll investigate it personally.

[TitansRevolution]

You know, the staff could go all nazi-mod and delete anything and everything, but then people leave. The internet is about freedom of speech, freedom of information, and as long as someone isn't being offensive, who has the right to control what they say?

^ :thumbup:

 

I too believe we need more freedom of speech around here, especially for clans. I mean, has anyone seen any Tip.it clans lately? TWR has been shrinking ever since Loge packed his stuff and ran off, taking most of the civilized clans with him as what was supposed to be a CLAN war ranking become more of a TEAM community which eventually became more and more biased against clans. No wonder no new clans are joining, the very few which join probably won't stay too long either, TWR might as well mean Team War Rankings. But enough of what is happening to the Tip.it community, let's talk more about freedom of speech since much like the many clanners out there, I feel that I have been victimized on Tip.it for being an avid clan supporter. The team community (which is now the majority of TWR) feels they need to have a go at me just because I believe in the concept of commitment, like most of the other clanners out there. Everytime I make a topic, there hasn't been one instance where a player who is in 3 or 4 clans/teams hasn't taken the opportunity to talk trash my clan, often causing pages of needless spam. And when I finally manage to shut them up using a completely sound and logical argument, my post somehow disappears while the offensive insults from these players who are in over 3 clans/teams remain. The first time around, I thought it might have been a forum error or something so I wasted another 10 minutes of my life to retype my original argument in hopes that all the multi-clanners/teamers would stop trolling my clan. But instead I find myself in a very vulnerable position where even the mods are displaying signs of hostility, is it really fair to punish someone who is merely defending his/her own home from intruders? And it doesn't end there, even to this day I am treated like someone who isn't welcome on Tip.it just because I'm an avid clanner who doesn't like multi-clanning/teaming, am I not entitled to my own opinion? And let's not mention how difficult it was for me to get my CLAN into TWR, just because a certain individual convinced a certain moderator to impede my clan from entering TWR. No I'm not going to mention names, I'd like to avoid getting suspended and having to type this post all over again.

[Guthorm]

^Massive flame bait

 

I just want to tell you something, the reason you are disliked by MANY others is not because you are in TR, you see the win topics TR posts? People went in with the usual gratz and left, the reason they dislike you is because of well...you. You are entitled to expressing your opinions, but we do as well, and frankly some of your comments is just a bit over the top. Your censor is justified since most of them are flamebaits. I agree with the others that as long it is not flamebait/overly offensive, by all means let them talk.

[TitansRevolution]

The reason people I am disliked by the multi-clanning/teaming trolls is because I always manage to effortlessly shut them up with a better argument everytime they have a go at the clan I represent. I don't know precisely why they trash talk my clan, maybe because it's not a team? Well I don't presume to know, but I do know that if they didn't trash talk my clan in the first place, I wouldn't have to put up defense and make them look stupid, and nobody would hate me. It appears someone needs a lesson on cause and effect.

 

But don't take my word for it, just take a look for yourself several months down the track, I'm betting that even more clans will leave TWR. Tip.it just isn't what it used to be without Loge, the fair and mature community we took for granted doesn't exist anymore. It's funny how we never learn to appreciate anything until it's gone.

 

Again, this is not intended to bash or flame bait anyone, I'm just stating my personal opinion based on my experiences on Tip.it.

[das]

while loge was a great mod, him leaving did not change our policies or anything of the sort.

[Rainy_Day]

while loge was a great mod, him leaving did not change our policies or anything of the sort.

Indeed, the clan moderators still deal with everyone in a fair, mature manner. One moderator leaving cannot be blamed for you being held to our forum rules. Instead of replying to the 'spam', perhaps report it instead so that it is removed at ease.

[TitansRevolution]

while loge was a great mod, him leaving did not change our policies or anything of the sort.

True, Loge leaving didn't change any Tip.it policies, but it did change the fashion in which your policies were maintained.

 

Not trying to shame anyone here, so I'll just provide one of many simple examples from Tip.it forums.

 

Source: http://forum.tip.it/topic/260126-twr-titans-revolution-vs-the-moriquendi/

 

Last time Mori had a TWR war was 15th November 2009, so gl negotiating.

 

Source: http://forum.tip.it/topic/229186-twr-information/

 

Structure

n. Clans that have not warred the previous month will be removed from the corresponding list. Clans which joined that month are exempt. Activity checks occur the first day of each month.

 

In this scenario either someone is being lazy or there is some obvious favoritism going on, both of which did not occur when Loge was around. I can show you a lot more examples, but like I said before I'm not trying to shame anyone, so I hope you can understand the point of my previous statements. There can be a variety of probable causes but from my experience, I'd attribute this to a lack of activity checks. As an admin you also have a responsibility to ensure every mod is fulfilling his/her role on the team, introducing a specific set of objectives for each mod and maintaining a strict deadline can help prevent such things from happening in the near future. Other methods include replacing mods who are constantly inactive or don't act in the best interest of the forum, but you shouldn't go there until you have exhausted your other options. In my opinion, what the mods need most is an active leader who can guide them, something which was lost when Loge departed.

 

Anyway I hope you can understand what I am trying to say, you don't have to listen to me or take me seriously. You can just ignore me and hope everything will turn out fine, but the truth is more and more clans are leaving TWR and your the only one who can do something about it. This is your forum, your traffic, your choice. I'm merely giving you my genuine advice on the matter, so if you choose not to listen, don't say I never gave you anything.

[obfuscator]

while loge was a great mod, him leaving did not change our policies or anything of the sort.

True, Loge leaving didn't change any Tip.it policies, but it did change the fashion in which your policies were maintained.

 

Not trying to shame anyone here, so I'll just provide one of many simple examples from Tip.it forums.

 

Source: http://forum.tip.it/topic/260126-twr-titans-revolution-vs-the-moriquendi/

 

Last time Mori had a TWR war was 15th November 2009, so gl negotiating.

 

Source: http://forum.tip.it/topic/229186-twr-information/

 

Structure

n. Clans that have not warred the previous month will be removed from the corresponding list. Clans which joined that month are exempt. Activity checks occur the first day of each month.

 

In this scenario either someone is being lazy or there is some obvious favoritism going on, both of which did not occur when Loge was around. I can show you a lot more examples, but like I said before I'm not trying to shame anyone, so I hope you can understand the point of my previous statements. There can be a variety of probable causes but from my experience, I'd attribute this to a lack of activity checks. As an admin you also have a responsibility to ensure every mod is fulfilling his/her role on the team, introducing a specific set of objectives for each mod and maintaining a strict deadline can help prevent such things from happening in the near future. Other methods include replacing mods who are constantly inactive or don't act in the best interest of the forum, but you shouldn't go there until you have exhausted your other options. In my opinion, what the mods need most is an active leader who can guide them, something which was lost when Loge departed.

 

Anyway I hope you can understand what I am trying to say, you don't have to listen to me or take me seriously. You can just ignore me and hope everything will turn out fine, but the truth is more and more clans are leaving TWR and your the only one who can do something about it. This is your forum, your traffic, your choice. I'm merely giving you my genuine advice on the matter, so if you choose not to listen, don't say I never gave you anything.

 

Ok, I know I've been talking to you in pm but this is a little unfair.

 

Yes, Mori should have been removed, they have been inactive.

 

You claim favoritism? Why would Mori possibly want to remain on a list if they aren't going to war? Not to mention that no current clan staff members are part of mori....The clan staff have a huge amount of work to be done; bear in mind they are volunteers, who put up with spamming, trolling, mind-numbingly boring tasks such as updating the twr, only to have people complain they aren't doing it right.

 

I understand your frustration, but just as you say this situation may require improvement from the staff, you have the option of being proactive and mentioning it to someone so it can be dealt with.

[Laikrob]

I am not sure why you are making complaints about the clan staff missing an active leader (Das is the Clan Admin, try sending him a PM?) in a topic about only allowing positive posts in update topics in General Discussion.

Just saying you are SLIGHTLY off topic here. :)

[TitansRevolution]

I'm not trying to make complaints about the clan staff, otherwise I would be PMing Das. What I am trying to do is highlight the favoritism and partial moderation where freedom of speech is selective in clans section. How? Of course no mods are in clans participating in TWR EVENTS. Those mods are in TEAMS and other groups which are controlled and governed by clans/teams participating IN TWR. So in essence, freedom of speech in TWR is controlled by the clans/teams who have volunteers in the clan staff and although the subtle influence is not easily seen, it can easily be felt. I understand that clan staff are volunteers, but volunteering to serve the Tip.it community is completely different from volunteering to serve their own respective teams, in which case favoritism and bias impacts upon the freedom of speech.

 

Once again, I'm not trying to shame mods. My posts are only intended to describe how favoritism and partial moderation negatively impacts upon freedom of speech within TWR. If anyone still doesn't understand what I am trying to say, please let me know and I'll even illustrate the situation using a diagram.

[obfuscator]

I'm not trying to make complaints about the clan staff, otherwise I would be PMing Das. What I am trying to do is highlight the favoritism and partial moderation where freedom of speech is selective in clans section. How? Of course no mods are in clans participating in TWR EVENTS. Those mods are in TEAMS and other groups which are controlled and governed by clans/teams participating IN TWR. So in essence, freedom of speech in TWR is controlled by the clans/teams who have volunteers in the clan staff and although the subtle influence is not easily seen, it can easily be felt. I understand that clan staff are volunteers, but volunteering to serve the Tip.it community is completely different from volunteering to serve their own respective teams, in which case favoritism and bias impacts upon the freedom of speech.

 

Once again, I'm not trying to shame mods. My posts are only intended to describe how favoritism and partial moderation negatively impacts upon freedom of speech within TWR. If anyone still doesn't understand what I am trying to say, please let me know and I'll even illustrate the situation using a diagram.

 

Once again, you won't have "easily felt" it unless an event has affected you - in which case pm das. You say you aren't complaining? You are claiming that a staff who takes pride in neutral handling of affairs is being biased...that sounds like a complaint to me. I know that every member of the staff puts the reputation of tip.it ahead of their own clan, and if they don't, that's something I'm sure Das would be glad to take a look at.

[Guthorm]

I'm not trying to make complaints about the clan staff, otherwise I would be PMing Das. What I am trying to do is highlight the favoritism and partial moderation where freedom of speech is selective in clans section. How? Of course no mods are in clans participating in TWR EVENTS. Those mods are in TEAMS and other groups which are controlled and governed by clans/teams participating IN TWR. So in essence, freedom of speech in TWR is controlled by the clans/teams who have volunteers in the clan staff and although the subtle influence is not easily seen, it can easily be felt. I understand that clan staff are volunteers, but volunteering to serve the Tip.it community is completely different from volunteering to serve their own respective teams, in which case favoritism and bias impacts upon the freedom of speech.

 

Once again, I'm not trying to shame mods. My posts are only intended to describe how favoritism and partial moderation negatively impacts upon freedom of speech within TWR. If anyone still doesn't understand what I am trying to say, please let me know and I'll even illustrate the situation using a diagram.

 

Sir, if you really feel this is a problem, feel free to make a thread in CD. I have left this thread since what we are discussing is off-topic and I suggest you do as well. If you refuse to do so because you think the mods will be "biased" and lock your thread, then please, try to understand why people dislike YOU(hint hint, not titans revolution or any of your other staffs), YOU so much.

[Rainy_Day]

I'm not trying to make complaints about the clan staff, otherwise I would be PMing Das. What I am trying to do is highlight the favoritism and partial moderation where freedom of speech is selective in clans section. How? Of course no mods are in clans participating in TWR EVENTS. Those mods are in TEAMS and other groups which are controlled and governed by clans/teams participating IN TWR. So in essence, freedom of speech in TWR is controlled by the clans/teams who have volunteers in the clan staff and although the subtle influence is not easily seen, it can easily be felt. I understand that clan staff are volunteers, but volunteering to serve the Tip.it community is completely different from volunteering to serve their own respective teams, in which case favoritism and bias impacts upon the freedom of speech.

 

Once again, I'm not trying to shame mods. My posts are only intended to describe how favoritism and partial moderation negatively impacts upon freedom of speech within TWR. If anyone still doesn't understand what I am trying to say, please let me know and I'll even illustrate the situation using a diagram.

I work with the clan sections, and I'm not in a clan. There's no possible way I can work in a bias fashion, and after getting to know the clan mods, I am pretty sure they are not bias either. They have to work in a non-bias environment, one way they do this is by not dealing with reports regarding their own clans.

 

If you have any problems with clan staff, which you quite obviously do, please take it to a PM to das. All you are currently doing is going off on a tangent which is barely related to this thread.