israeli soldiers kill 9 in international waters

[Romy]

You're the one who judged magekillr for being one sided. It wasn't cut and dry. As I had mentioned, the illegality of Israel's actions is questioned because of the Marmara clearly saying it will ignore the IDF's instructions not to enter Israel's territorial waters. That means Israel could legally use proportional force.

 

No it doesn't, please don't think that. Furthermore, if the crew of the Marmara believed that force was being used against them without legal justification (and in this case force could be defined as armed soldiers descending via helicopter) then legally they're entitled to defend themselves.

 

What do you base that on?

[sees_all1]

Do you agree that the primary wrong doing in this incident is the location it was carried out? I.E. if the exact same thing happened ~10 km off the coast of Israel, Israel would not be at fault?

Primary? Maybe. Contributory? Of course.

:huh:

That was a very quick edit from the "no" you had before.

 

The entire point I'm trying to make is the only reason Israel takes the blame for this is because it was in international waters. As misguided as their attempt was to stop the ship, and as disastrous the outcome, rational people will agree that if this occurred in Israel's waters the only people to blame for this are the protesters.

 

If you rob a bank and someone gets shot and dies during the robbery, you'll be charged with murder even if you didn't pull the trigger.

 

 

I think everything else is just gravy.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Saying Israel had legal rights to kill people in International Waters without clearance because the IDF allowed it is like saying Adolf Hitler legally killed 10millon people because he allowed it and it isn't his fault.

 

"Quick let's stop them, how dare they bring in food for the starving! How dare they attempt to undermine our oppressive work!"[Fabricated] I believe its somewhere in the Torah that repetitively states to feed the poor and not oppress aliens.

[Romy]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

There were about 3-4 men over each soldier. Did you watch the videos I posted?

 

When you get two clubs in the head and have a gun, you don't think twice.

[SeanyTheSailor]

has anyone read my idea about how it should have been handled? If you guys see problems with it I'd really like to get feedback.

[Romy]

Saying Israel had legal rights to kill people in International Waters without clearance because the IDF allowed it is like saying Adolf Hitler legally killed 10millon people because he allowed it and it isn't his fault.

 

"Quick let's stop them, how dare they bring in food for the starving! How dare they attempt to undermine our oppressive work!"[Fabricated] I believe its somewhere in the Torah that repetitively states to feed the poor and not oppress aliens.

 

Oh, trust me, this whole flotilla idea's main purpose was to create awareness. And a fine job they did.

 

If it really was about the humanitarian aid, I assure you the Israeli government would've had no problem taking it there in person, or letting a third party take it there, through organized communication and transportation.

[The_Gabe]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

[qeltar]

Again, the illegality of the issue is being questioned, since the Marmara clearly decided to ignore Israel's requests not to enter it's territorial waters.

This is completely illogical.

 

Actually *entering* Israel's territorial waters *might* have made this legal. Attacking the ship because you think they *might* enter your waters is not.

 

I don't understand why you are incapable of understanding this.

 

I never admitted a search wasn't obligatory, I admitted it could, and possibly should've been done later, not that it shouldn't have at all.

You admitted that they had other options aside from boarding the ship. Would be nice if you could keep your own position straight.

 

I did not.

Post #110 of this very thread: "I can again point out what I pointed out up this post, and in the past, just so you could again say they had other choices. Technically speaking, they did."

 

 

i again propose, why did israel not allow them into port, search everyone and everything coming off the ship. That way THEY were in control of the situation. International media would probably be covering it and it wouldnt be a their word against ours situation. They could even have the ships under 24/7 guard for pete's sake. The only thing that Israel could conceivably take the fall for is further delaying the flow of supplies to the people. It looks a hell of a lot better in a history book than 20 People dead. heck it probably wouldnt even make the history books.

Because they *wanted* this to happen, that's why. They were trying to send a message to anyone else who tried to send a ship. Unfortunately for everyone, they overplayed their hand.

 

 

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

This comment is not only factually wrong, it is insulting to people who really have been lynched. Very offensive, and shows just how completely lacking you are in even a shred of objectivity.

[SeanyTheSailor]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

If its international who else is in on it. And romy is from israel... so i think she of all people would know if they are starving and/or if it was international

 

 

Also qeltar im not sure its fair to say they wanted this... israel has been taking a lot of flak recently.

[qeltar]

Oh, trust me, this whole flotilla idea's main purpose was to create awareness. And a fine job they did.

Yep. And the purpose of attacking the ship was also to send a message. It just wasn't the one intended.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

LOL. An "international blockade" consisting of Israel and Egypt-being-paid-off-to-assist-Israel.

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

Do you ever have anything to back up these pronouncements?

[The_Gabe]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

If its international who else is in on it. And romy is from israel... so i think she of all people would know if they are starving and/or if it was international

 

 

I'm from Israel too smarty.

 

Also Qeltar, you're forgetting an important fact. This was the largest of 6 ships delivering supplies. The 5 other ships responded and the searches were conducted as supposed to. The 6th ship, the largest of them, did not. And when they came to search it, they were attacked.

[fakeitormakeit2]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

First of all it is an Israeli blockade, the only law they complied with is that they notified International authorities before doing it, which follows the international customary blockade law. However, that would be on the basis if the city was controlled by an enemy, which they claim is Hamas, and I disagree that the entirety of the city is Hamas controlled.

 

They are starving and a great majority of the people live on very meager resources almost entirely donated to them as they cannot have a livelihood because they're boxed in. I have friends from Gaza in fact and they thank the God everyday for although the USA is not perfect they have freedom of movement, freedom of a livelihood, freedom to live. People are starving and it is people like you who sit on their high throne and ignore the plight of these people induced by a government fighting an enemy they aren't part of.

[SeanyTheSailor]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

If its international who else is in on it. And romy is from israel... so i think she of all people would know if they are starving and/or if it was international

 

 

I'm from Israel too smarty.

 

Also Qeltar, you're forgetting an important fact. This was the largest of 6 ships delivering supplies. The 5 other ships responded and the searches were conducted as supposed to. The 6th ship, the largest of them, did not. And when they came to search it, they were attacked.

Then thats a nice Clarksville TN location....

[Romy]

Again, the illegality of the issue is being questioned, since the Marmara clearly decided to ignore Israel's requests not to enter it's territorial waters.

This is completely illogical.

 

Actually *entering* Israel's territorial waters *might* have made this legal. Attacking the ship because you think they *might* enter your waters is not.

 

I don't understand why you are incapable of understanding this.

 

They never attacked anyone that did not attack them. You're the one who keeps judging over simplistic comments, you should point your judgement at yourself.

 

I never admitted a search wasn't obligatory, I admitted it could, and possibly should've been done later, not that it shouldn't have at all.

You admitted that they had other options aside from boarding the ship. Would be nice if you could keep your own position straight.

 

I did not.

Post #110 of this very thread: "I can again point out what I pointed out up this post, and in the past, just so you could again say they had other choices. Technically speaking, they did."

 

You didn't understand it properly. I was pointing out they had options other than doing it on international waters, not other than searching the ships at all.

 

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

This comment is not only factually wrong, it is insulting to people who really have been lynched. Very offensive, and shows just how completely lacking you are in even a shred of objectivity.

 

Other than calling it wrong, do you have anything to support that claim? Because I have what supports the opposite.

[The_Gabe]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

If its international who else is in on it. And romy is from israel... so i think she of all people would know if they are starving and/or if it was international

 

 

I'm from Israel too smarty.

 

Also Qeltar, you're forgetting an important fact. This was the largest of 6 ships delivering supplies. The 5 other ships responded and the searches were conducted as supposed to. The 6th ship, the largest of them, did not. And when they came to search it, they were attacked.

Then thats a nice Clarksville TN location....

 

Cause that's where I am located at the moment.. I've lived in Israel for a long time, I know what's going on, etc. My family is there, I am going there in 3 days. You can't tell me I'm not from Israel.

[SeanyTheSailor]

So Israel killed some people... because they were afraid that these people might bring guns...

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

So... two Israeli soldiers were wounded (from what I have read)... Israeli forces responded by killing as many as 20 people... because they were afraid that ships that were proven to have been delivering humanitarian supplies... etc.

 

So really it's a [bleep]ed up situation but the ultimate problem is that Israel is blockading the Gaza Strip and starving innocent people.

 

First of all: It's not just Israel blockade, it's an international blockade so get your facts straight..

 

Second of all: The people are NOT starving.

If its international who else is in on it. And romy is from israel... so i think she of all people would know if they are starving and/or if it was international

 

 

I'm from Israel too smarty.

 

Also Qeltar, you're forgetting an important fact. This was the largest of 6 ships delivering supplies. The 5 other ships responded and the searches were conducted as supposed to. The 6th ship, the largest of them, did not. And when they came to search it, they were attacked.

Then thats a nice Clarksville TN location....

 

Cause that's where I am located at the moment.. I've lived in Israel for a long time, I know what's going on, etc. My family is there, I am going there in 3 days. You can't tell me I'm not from Israel.

I can tell you someone who is there AT THIS MOMENT probably knows more than you. Also this is a pointless offshoot of the main argument we're establishing nothing but where the other is.

 

@ roccodog Perhaps it being in national waters negates this, but i do believe they have the right to check it for weapons, is it fair for you to let strangers bring a ton of boxes into your house without you knowing whats in them?

[qeltar]

Here's an interesting aspect of this that the Israeli toadies will never give a rational answer to.

 

We're being asked to believe that the Israelis are the good guys and the ship was filled with evil! EVIL! Hamas-affiliated terrorists who want all Jews to die.

 

Funny thing, though.

 

While some of the Israeli soldiers were indeed attacked (which was wrong), they were not killed. The soldiers were in fact taken into custody on the ships, and could have easily been killed if the protesters had wanted to.

 

But they weren't killed.

 

So.. both sides had an opportunity to kill some on the other. The "good guy" Israelis took that opportunity and killed 9 civilians. The "bad guy" EVIL! protestors *didn't*.

 

Explain?

[The_Gabe]

Here's an interesting aspect of this that the Israeli toadies will never give a rational answer to.

 

We're being asked to believe that the Israelis are the good guys and the ship was filled with evil! EVIL! Hamas-affiliated terrorists who want all Jews to die.

 

Funny thing, though.

 

While some of the Israeli soldiers were indeed attacked (which was wrong), they were not killed. The soldiers were in fact taken into custody on the ships, and could have easily been killed if the protesters had wanted to.

 

But they weren't killed.

 

So.. both sides had an opportunity to kill some on the other. The "good guy" Israelis took that opportunity and killed 9 civilians. The "bad guy" EVIL! protestors *didn't*.

 

Explain?

 

Again, did you even watch the videos released?

And if the terrorists orginazations don't believe Israel should exist, doesn't that tell you they want us (Jews) dead aswell? It's not like they've been attacking us for lets say... Since we became a country?

 

Facts: the soldiers were confronted and attacked. One soldier was SHOT in the stomach, another in the knee. There might have been more casualties then expected, but again, most likely it cannot have been avoided.

[fakeitormakeit2]

If I were an Arab living in Gaza I'd attack Israelis too after all the injustices of the past years.

See except most Arabs, believe it or not, are peaceful and decide to starve and die instead, or like my friends flee the country while the Isareli Military forcefully acquired their village.

[Romy]

Here's an interesting aspect of this that the Israeli toadies will never give a rational answer to.

 

We're being asked to believe that the Israelis are the good guys and the ship was filled with evil! EVIL! Hamas-affiliated terrorists who want all Jews to die.

 

Funny thing, though.

 

While some of the Israeli soldiers were indeed attacked (which was wrong), they were not killed. The soldiers were in fact taken into custody on the ships, and could have easily been killed if the protesters had wanted to.

 

But they weren't killed.

 

So.. both sides had an opportunity to kill some on the other. The "good guy" Israelis took that opportunity and killed 9 civilians. The "bad guy" EVIL! protestors *didn't*.

 

Explain?

 

Explain?

 

I could best explain by giving you instructions.

 

Go find three to four men to hit you with iron rods and clubs or chairs, etc. Now have your friends get the same treatment, and make sure most of you have a gun. Now act.

[qeltar]

Again, the illegality of the issue is being questioned, since the Marmara clearly decided to ignore Israel's requests not to enter it's territorial waters.

This is completely illogical.

 

Actually *entering* Israel's territorial waters *might* have made this legal. Attacking the ship because you think they *might* enter your waters is not.

 

I don't understand why you are incapable of understanding this.

 

They never attacked anyone that did not attack them. You're the one who keeps judging over simplistic comments, you should point your judgement at yourself.

Israel attacked a ship that did not attack them, and they did it in international waters, so the ships refusal to give in to Israel's requests does not make Israel's actions legal.

 

Post #110 of this very thread: "I can again point out what I pointed out up this post, and in the past, just so you could again say they had other choices. Technically speaking, they did."

 

You didn't understand it properly.

I understood it perfectly. You're backpedalling.

 

No, these people were killed after lynching the soldiers.

This comment is not only factually wrong, it is insulting to people who really have been lynched. Very offensive, and shows just how completely lacking you are in even a shred of objectivity.

 

Other than calling it wrong, do you have anything to support that claim? Because I have what supports the opposite.

If you actually knew what lynching meant, you wouldn't be making such embarrassing comments.

 

Hint: It involves rope and premeditated murder of complete innocents. Nothing to do with this situation.

[SeanyTheSailor]

Here's an interesting aspect of this that the Israeli toadies will never give a rational answer to.

 

We're being asked to believe that the Israelis are the good guys and the ship was filled with evil! EVIL! Hamas-affiliated terrorists who want all Jews to die.

 

Funny thing, though.

 

While some of the Israeli soldiers were indeed attacked (which was wrong), they were not killed. The soldiers were in fact taken into custody on the ships, and could have easily been killed if the protesters had wanted to.

 

But they weren't killed.

 

So.. both sides had an opportunity to kill some on the other. The "good guy" Israelis took that opportunity and killed 9 civilians. The "bad guy" EVIL! protestors *didn't*.

 

Explain?

You're talking in extremes. It's not fair to say we think they are all terrorists nor is it true. Again I say would you let a bunch of strangers come into your home with boxes full of who knows what? No. Israel did what they should have done, I agree they were probably trying to make a statement so they went about doing it the wrong way, things went wrong and now everything is [cabbage]. Also lets assume they did capture these soldiers, how do you know they had the opportunity to kill them? They cant just do it in plain sight that's an instant admission of guilt. Its ridiculous to ask these soldiers not to defend themselves. i guess it all just boils down to that is seems excessive to some.

[The_Gabe]

Here's an interesting aspect of this that the Israeli toadies will never give a rational answer to.

 

We're being asked to believe that the Israelis are the good guys and the ship was filled with evil! EVIL! Hamas-affiliated terrorists who want all Jews to die.

 

Funny thing, though.

 

While some of the Israeli soldiers were indeed attacked (which was wrong), they were not killed. The soldiers were in fact taken into custody on the ships, and could have easily been killed if the protesters had wanted to.

 

But they weren't killed.

 

So.. both sides had an opportunity to kill some on the other. The "good guy" Israelis took that opportunity and killed 9 civilians. The "bad guy" EVIL! protestors *didn't*.

 

Explain?

 

Explain?

 

I could best explain by giving you instructions.

 

Go find three to four men to hit you with iron rods and clubs or chairs, etc. Now have your friends get the same treatment, and make sure most of you have a gun. Now act.

 

That's what I was thinking also. If you were in the military, you HAVE to act ASAP. You don't know if they've got guns, rockets, or anything else. You want to survive. You shoot them before they shoot you.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Here's an interesting aspect of this that the Israeli toadies will never give a rational answer to.

 

We're being asked to believe that the Israelis are the good guys and the ship was filled with evil! EVIL! Hamas-affiliated terrorists who want all Jews to die.

 

Funny thing, though.

 

While some of the Israeli soldiers were indeed attacked (which was wrong), they were not killed. The soldiers were in fact taken into custody on the ships, and could have easily been killed if the protesters had wanted to.

 

But they weren't killed.

 

So.. both sides had an opportunity to kill some on the other. The "good guy" Israelis took that opportunity and killed 9 civilians. The "bad guy" EVIL! protestors *didn't*.

 

Explain?

You're talking in extremes. It's not fair to say we think they are all terrorists nor is it true. Again I say would you let a bunch of strangers come into your home with boxes full of who knows what? No. Israel did what they should have done, I agree they were probably trying to make a statement so they went about doing it the wrong way, things went wrong and now everything is [cabbage]. Also lets assume they did capture these soldiers, how do you know they had the opportunity to kill them? They cant just do it in plain sight that's an instant admission of guilt.

One big mistake. Too bad Palestine isn't the home of Israelis.

[Romy]

If I were an Arab living in Gaza I'd attack Israelis too after all the injustices of the past years.

See except most Arabs, believe it or not, are peaceful and decide to starve and die instead, or like my friends flee the country while the Isareli Military forcefully acquired their village.

 

There we go over simplifying things again.

 

 

You're right, no rockets were ever launched at Israeli citizens. No innocent lives were taken on Israel's side. Israel did not discharge a rocket launcher just yesterday.