Motives begind criminal actions

[Zierro]

Probably because they're pathetic.

[Star_Fox]

Their motives are simple: Some people are born as the "good" apples and some are just plain "bad" apples. I always thought of it that way.

[OldJoe]

Some have already answered the way i would. But i'd like to add something else.

 

I believe that the sentences, which should be a deterring factor, doesn't work. Now, what i mean is that, in most European countries, the laws are crap. It's all about the criminal and "boohoo poor criminal" and "let's rehab you, punishment sucks!". I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime. Rehab doesn't work, if you rape someone, you aren't sane in the head and it would be a waste of time and money to try and fix that persons head. In rape for example, i believe going about such as Poland does towards pedophiles is a good start, and then add it together with a, say, 20 year sentence in a -non- luxury prison.

[Zierro]

I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime

 

I agree. I believe in civility, but not an imaginary realm where people who kill and rape innocent people can just be negotiated with and then they'll kindly stop. When you just slap wrists and turn the cheek, what is holding them back from committing the crime? Obviously their conscious isn't enough. So, if you DON'T want those crimes to happen, the only logical decision would be to really do your best to scare them out of doing it.

 

But then we got that group of "philanthropists" on their high horses yelling, "An eye for an eye makes the world go blind! Yo gabba gabba!" If you really want to be civilized, discouraging immoral behavior is a good starting point.

[magekillr]

It depends on the crime. I'd say that 90% of crime--I have no evidence for this statement, it's just some ballpark that I'm using--is fueled and motivated by the feeling that there's no other choice if they're to survive. So in other words, ignorance, the lack of an education and poverty fuel crime.

 

Rapists and sexual harassers it's about power and control.

 

Sociopaths are a different breed of criminal, though, and I don't know much about the psychology of them. I find those crime TV murder stories about people like John Wayne Gacy to be interesting, though.

[Azvareth]

Some have already answered the way i would. But i'd like to add something else.

 

I believe that the sentences, which should be a deterring factor, doesn't work. Now, what i mean is that, in most European countries, the laws are crap. It's all about the criminal and "boohoo poor criminal" and "let's rehab you, punishment sucks!". I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime. Rehab doesn't work, if you rape someone, you aren't sane in the head and it would be a waste of time and money to try and fix that persons head. In rape for example, i believe going about such as Poland does towards pedophiles is a good start, and then add it together with a, say, 20 year sentence in a -non- luxury prison.

 

Look at how wrong you are. Statistics has shown time and time again that the whole "arrhhh revenge and retribution" philosophy for criminals simply does not work as a deterrent, at all. In fact, and as an example, in the U.S (a country that eats the whole "an eye for an eye" [cabbage] up) over 2/3 of the criminals end up getting re-arrested within 3 years of release, and half get charged with a new crime. In contrast, Norway, which has one of the (if not the) highest prison standard in the world, where they truly focus on prison education and rehabilitating their criminals, hardly anybody gets re-arrested (I'm too tired to look up actual statistics right now, but it's unbelievably low).

 

That's not the only problem with the U.S. prison system though, where both racism, torture and prison rape is pretty much guaranteed. It's one of the things about the country that makes me sick to my stomach.

[magekillr]

Some have already answered the way i would. But i'd like to add something else.

 

I believe that the sentences, which should be a deterring factor, doesn't work. Now, what i mean is that, in most European countries, the laws are crap. It's all about the criminal and "boohoo poor criminal" and "let's rehab you, punishment sucks!". I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime. Rehab doesn't work, if you rape someone, you aren't sane in the head and it would be a waste of time and money to try and fix that persons head. In rape for example, i believe going about such as Poland does towards pedophiles is a good start, and then add it together with a, say, 20 year sentence in a -non- luxury prison.

 

Look at how wrong you are. Statistics has shown time and time again that the whole "arrhhh revenge and retribution" philosophy for criminals simply does not work as a deterrent, at all. In fact, and as an example, in the U.S (a country that eats the whole "an eye for an eye" [cabbage] up) over 2/3 of the criminals end up getting re-arrested within 3 years of release, and half get charged with a new crime. In contrast, Norway, which has one of the (if not the) highest prison standard in the world, where they truly focus on prison education and rehabilitating their criminals, hardly anybody gets re-arrested (I'm too tired to look up actual statistics right now, but it's unbelievably low).

 

That's not the only problem with the U.S. prison system though, where both racism, torture and prison rape is pretty much guaranteed. It's one of the things about the country that makes me sick to my stomach.

 

Preach, Azvareth. Not only all of that, but the U.S. has the highest amount of citizens in prison, dwarfing Russia and China, even when we ignore per capita statistics. Thanks, drug war! So this is not only working, but we're creating worse criminals by throwing them in prison. Mandatory minimums, racism, poverty and our drug war are the causes of these disparities. Stephen Colbert smacked Assistant Secretary of State Michael Posner around on Friday, I think, with this doosy:

 

COLBERT: We've actually got more people in prison than China does.

 

POSNER: Well I'm not sure that's true.

 

How does a State Department official not know how wrong this is? Maybe it was national posturing and he knew the real stats, but denying it doesn't make it any less true.

[Bloodstain]

Some have already answered the way i would. But i'd like to add something else.

 

I believe that the sentences, which should be a deterring factor, doesn't work. Now, what i mean is that, in most European countries, the laws are crap. It's all about the criminal and "boohoo poor criminal" and "let's rehab you, punishment sucks!". I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime. Rehab doesn't work, if you rape someone, you aren't sane in the head and it would be a waste of time and money to try and fix that persons head. In rape for example, i believe going about such as Poland does towards pedophiles is a good start, and then add it together with a, say, 20 year sentence in a -non- luxury prison.

 

Look at how wrong you are. Statistics has shown time and time again that the whole "arrhhh revenge and retribution" philosophy for criminals simply does not work as a deterrent, at all. In fact, and as an example, in the U.S (a country that eats the whole "an eye for an eye" [cabbage] up) over 2/3 of the criminals end up getting re-arrested within 3 years of release, and half get charged with a new crime. In contrast, Norway, which has one of the (if not the) highest prison standard in the world, where they truly focus on prison education and rehabilitating their criminals, hardly anybody gets re-arrested (I'm too tired to look up actual statistics right now, but it's unbelievably low).

 

That's not the only problem with the U.S. prison system though, where both racism, torture and prison rape is pretty much guaranteed. It's one of the things about the country that makes me sick to my stomach.

 

Agreed 100%. I'd like to see a bigger interest in Restorative Justice too, everything I've read and learned about it show it as far superior for a lot of crimes.

 

 

 

 

Their motives are simple: Some people are born as the "good" apples and some are just plain "bad" apples. I always thought of it that way.

 

Sorry, that's just straight up wrong.

 

 

Motives vary from person to person and crime to crime. Could be money, power, necessity, upbringing, psychological/mental (psychopaths) etc. There is no one definitive motive

 

 

Thanks, drug war! So this is not only working, but we're creating worse criminals by throwing them in prison.

 

Nothin like convict college for learning the tools of the trade better. Or a criminal record that prevents you from finding a good job

[Zierro]

Some have already answered the way i would. But i'd like to add something else.

 

I believe that the sentences, which should be a deterring factor, doesn't work. Now, what i mean is that, in most European countries, the laws are crap. It's all about the criminal and "boohoo poor criminal" and "let's rehab you, punishment sucks!". I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime. Rehab doesn't work, if you rape someone, you aren't sane in the head and it would be a waste of time and money to try and fix that persons head. In rape for example, i believe going about such as Poland does towards pedophiles is a good start, and then add it together with a, say, 20 year sentence in a -non- luxury prison.

 

Look at how wrong you are. Statistics has shown time and time again that the whole "arrhhh revenge and retribution" philosophy for criminals simply does not work as a deterrent, at all. In fact, and as an example, in the U.S (a country that eats the whole "an eye for an eye" [cabbage] up) over 2/3 of the criminals end up getting re-arrested within 3 years of release, and half get charged with a new crime. In contrast, Norway, which has one of the (if not the) highest prison standard in the world, where they truly focus on prison education and rehabilitating their criminals, hardly anybody gets re-arrested (I'm too tired to look up actual statistics right now, but it's unbelievably low).

 

That's not the only problem with the U.S. prison system though, where both racism, torture and prison rape is pretty much guaranteed. It's one of the things about the country that makes me sick to my stomach.

 

Lol at your statistics. Can you tell me exactly how many people thought about committing a crime but didn't go through with it because they were afraid of jail? If not, then I'm afraid you don't have this groundbreaking evidence that punishment is not a deterrent you guys love bringing up so much.

 

I think simple logic is enough to tell us, if there is an undesirable consequence, we are less likely to do something.

[OldJoe]

Some have already answered the way i would. But i'd like to add something else.

 

I believe that the sentences, which should be a deterring factor, doesn't work. Now, what i mean is that, in most European countries, the laws are crap. It's all about the criminal and "boohoo poor criminal" and "let's rehab you, punishment sucks!". I so god damn hate this liberal nonsense stance on crime. Rehab doesn't work, if you rape someone, you aren't sane in the head and it would be a waste of time and money to try and fix that persons head. In rape for example, i believe going about such as Poland does towards pedophiles is a good start, and then add it together with a, say, 20 year sentence in a -non- luxury prison.

 

Look at how wrong you are. Statistics has shown time and time again that the whole "arrhhh revenge and retribution" philosophy for criminals simply does not work as a deterrent, at all. In fact, and as an example, in the U.S (a country that eats the whole "an eye for an eye" [cabbage] up) over 2/3 of the criminals end up getting re-arrested within 3 years of release, and half get charged with a new crime. In contrast, Norway, which has one of the (if not the) highest prison standard in the world, where they truly focus on prison education and rehabilitating their criminals, hardly anybody gets re-arrested (I'm too tired to look up actual statistics right now, but it's unbelievably low).

 

That's not the only problem with the U.S. prison system though, where both racism, torture and prison rape is pretty much guaranteed. It's one of the things about the country that makes me sick to my stomach.

And rehab works? The amount of crimes commited in my country suggests that it doesn't work.

Yes i know about Norway, i've seen a bit of that on tv. But most countries don't have it like that, mine for example doesn't.

 

I want a criminal to be punished. The end.

If someone rapes, or robs at gun point, or commits acts of terror, i don't want them to be able to skip punishment and just get sent to rehab or education.

I purposely left out USA in my post. I don't want to get into a discussion about the American penile system. Obviously i know some of the faults.

But, the weak sentences in Sweden for example, makes me angry. 18 year old commits a rape, and gets sent to "youth rehab". If you like that kind of penile system, go ahead and enjoy, we are only the number 2 in the world when it comes to reported rapes per capita in the world.

[Bloodstain]

 

 

Lol at your statistics. Can you tell me exactly how many people thought about committing a crime but didn't go through with it because they were afraid of jail? If not, then I'm afraid you don't have this groundbreaking evidence that punishment is not a deterrent you guys love bringing up so much.

 

I think simple logic is enough to tell us, if there is an undesirable consequence, we are less likely to do something.

 

Criminals don't think they're going to get caught, that is why the consequence of jail is ineffective. Most criminals think they committed the perfect crime.

 

 

I want a criminal to be punished. The end.

If someone rapes, or robs at gun point, or commits acts of terror, i don't want them to be able to skip punishment and just get sent to rehab or education.

I purposely left out USA in my post. I don't want to get into a discussion about the American penile system. Obviously i know some of the faults.

But, the weak sentences in Sweden for example, makes me angry. 18 year old commits a rape, and gets sent to "youth rehab". If you like that kind of penile system, go ahead and enjoy, we are only the number 2 in the world when it comes to reported rapes per capita in the world.

 

Punishment wouldn't achieve anything. If you want to increase the chance a criminal won't commit a crime again, do something useful with them.

 

It wouldn't be rehab or education either, for example, johnny smashes carol's car and steals her radio. Carol now can't get to her job, or drop her child off at daycare (she is a single mother), and can't afford to get the car fixed. Johnny and Carol (and some of their friends and family) agree to attend a Family group conference, where everyone can speak to each other. Johnny's friend's explain that XYZ is why he stole the radio and smashed her car. Carol and her group get to explain the impact Johnny's actions had on them directly to his face. In the end, maybe they agree that Johnny will pay for the repairs and do whatever else they agree to. That's a rough rough example of a process of restorative justice.

 

e: As a side note, if I were Johnny I think I'd rather spend a month in jail than have to meet with the family/people I victimized.

[Zierro]

Well sorry for the ones too stupid to realize that they're not invincible. But as for the other ones, the ones who think about stealing a car but end up not doing it because they don't want to do the time, they have been deterred. Of course nothing will stop crime entirely. The point is to at least minimize it.

[Zierro]

There are more murders in the US, and harsher sentences. Hmm.

 

There are more drunk teen accidents in the US, and harsher drinking laws. What's up with this correlation?

Does this imply that harsh drinking laws do not prevent teens from dying of alcohol poisoning, crazy stunts, drunk driving, etc.? No, the age limit probably saved tons of lives because plenty of kids have been denied the purchase and had to go to bed sober that night. American teens are just an extremely wily bunch, so that's why you see all these accidents. I get a feeling that if the drinking age was 16, you'd see even more though. And if the drinking age in European countries was 21, I doubt the amount of drunk teen accidents would rise. When comparing and contrasting countries, you have to realize that the cultures are not the same. That variable changes from country to country. This is a big example of how correlation doesn't = causation.

 

I mean, how can you say jail doesn't deter crime in America when you don't have statistics of the crime rate of an America where jail doesn't exist? Seriously, all the statistics I've been seeing are half-baked and don't prove anything. It's funny when people manipulate science to try to certify their point because it cannot stand on its own. I don't fall for it though.

[Bloodstain]

 

 

I mean, how can you say jail doesn't deter crime in America when you don't have statistics of the crime rate of an America where jail doesn't exist? Seriously, all the statistics I've been seeing are half-baked and don't prove anything. It's funny when people manipulate science to try to certify their point because it cannot stand on its own. I don't fall for it though.

 

Go to a prison, ask the convicts why they committed the crime when they knew about jail. They'll tell you that they didn't think they'd get caught. It's as simple as that, and it's widely accepted in the criminal justice field. I'm going to stop replying to this thread because it'll just turn out like the last one. Suffice it to say no one is changing their minds on the topic

[OldJoe]

Edit: Posts before me. To Roccodog.

^

Yes, i'm not against rehab. I'm against less punishment - more rehab.

You also have to take the victim/victims family into account. If a daughter is murderd, the murderer is 16, how do you think the family would feel if the murderer only has to go thru some "treatment"? There needs to be consequences from actions.

http://forum.tip.it/topic/265452-things-that-annoy-the-hell-out-of-you/page__view__findpost__p__4425673

 

I agree that those, that are truly remorseful, and those that may have injured a party in self defence, should get rehab. I don't believe that someone that who stabs a person for his/her wallet is in need of imminent treatment, i want to see such people punished.

 

There's a difference between Norway and USA when it comes to gangs, weapons, violence etc. So to say that the Norwegian penal system=less murders is not completely true.

[Bloodstain]

 

You also have to take the victim/victims family into account. If a daughter is murderd, the murderer is 16, how do you think the family would feel if the murderer only has to go thru some "treatment"? There needs to be consequences from actions.

http://forum.tip.it/topic/265452-things-that-annoy-the-hell-out-of-you/page__view__findpost__p__4425673

 

 

Why would you send a murderer to rehab? Rehab is for drug addicts

[Zierro]

 

 

I mean, how can you say jail doesn't deter crime in America when you don't have statistics of the crime rate of an America where jail doesn't exist? Seriously, all the statistics I've been seeing are half-baked and don't prove anything. It's funny when people manipulate science to try to certify their point because it cannot stand on its own. I don't fall for it though.

 

Go to a prison, ask the convicts why they committed the crime when they knew about jail. They'll tell you that they didn't think they'd get caught. It's as simple as that, and it's widely accepted in the criminal justice field. I'm going to stop replying to this thread because it'll just turn out like the last one. Suffice it to say no one is changing their minds on the topic

 

I never argued about them thinking they wouldn't get caught. My argument was that there are people who have never committed a crime because they were afraid of the jail punishment, which proves that jail is a deterrent for crime. The fact that some people don't think they will get caught and end up doing the crime regardless of the punishment only shows that jail is not a deterrent for EVERYBODY.

[Bloodstain]

 

 

I mean, how can you say jail doesn't deter crime in America when you don't have statistics of the crime rate of an America where jail doesn't exist? Seriously, all the statistics I've been seeing are half-baked and don't prove anything. It's funny when people manipulate science to try to certify their point because it cannot stand on its own. I don't fall for it though.

 

Go to a prison, ask the convicts why they committed the crime when they knew about jail. They'll tell you that they didn't think they'd get caught. It's as simple as that, and it's widely accepted in the criminal justice field. I'm going to stop replying to this thread because it'll just turn out like the last one. Suffice it to say no one is changing their minds on the topic

 

I never argued about them thinking they wouldn't get caught. My argument was that there are people who have never committed a crime because they were afraid of the jail punishment, which proves that jail is a deterrent for crime. The fact that some people don't think they will get caught and end up doing the crime regardless of the punishment only shows that jail is not a deterrent for EVERYBODY.

 

So then with such high incarceration rates in USA (and whatever other countries), can you really say that it is an EFFECTIVE deterrent?

[Bloodstain]

I'm going to drop some links for people about Restorative Justice, because I think I'm not explaining it clearly.

 

http://www.restorativejustice.org/whatisslide/keyprinciples

http://www.restorativejustice.org/university-classroom/01introduction

 

One of the important things to remember about RJ is that it is about involving the victim and offender to repair the harm done by the offender.

[Zierro]

So then with such high incarceration rates in USA (and whatever other countries), can you really say that it is an EFFECTIVE deterrent?

 

The penile system is not the only factor that dictates the crime flow. Like I said before, cultures are different so it's not wise to judge them all the same. America is a more wily culture than most others, so I'm really not surprised that our jails are full. And maybe American cops and judges are more corrupt over here too? Unless you can compare the crime rate of an America with jail and an America without it, you don't have much to work with statistic-wise.

 

By the way, a barely effective deterrent is a lot better than no deterrent, especially when we're dealing with innocent lives and virginities.

[OldJoe]

 

You also have to take the victim/victims family into account. If a daughter is murderd, the murderer is 16, how do you think the family would feel if the murderer only has to go thru some "treatment"? There needs to be consequences from actions.

http://forum.tip.it/topic/265452-things-that-annoy-the-hell-out-of-you/page__view__findpost__p__4425673

 

 

Why would you send a murderer to rehab? Rehab is for drug addicts

Because that's a prime example of how bad the penal system is in my country.

[Bloodstain]

So then with such high incarceration rates in USA (and whatever other countries), can you really say that it is an EFFECTIVE deterrent?

 

The penile system is not the only factor that dictates the crime flow. Like I said before, cultures are different so it's not wise to judge them all the same. America is a more wily culture than most others, so I'm really not surprised that our jails are full. And maybe American cops and judges are more corrupt over here too? Unless you can compare the crime rate of an America with jail and an America without it, you don't have much to work with statistic-wise.

 

By the way, a barely effective deterrent is a lot better than no deterrent, especially when we're dealing with innocent lives and virginities.

 

So wouldn't you say it would be a better strategy to take some of that $49 billion America is spending on prisons and instead use it for PROACTIVE strategies, like focusing on inner city neighborhoods and crime hotspots? Instead of being retroactively warehousing criminals, releasing them, arresting them, releasing them, and so on? Or developing programs and methods of dealing with criminals to reduce their likelihood of re-offending?

[Bloodstain]

 

You also have to take the victim/victims family into account. If a daughter is murderd, the murderer is 16, how do you think the family would feel if the murderer only has to go thru some "treatment"? There needs to be consequences from actions.

http://forum.tip.it/topic/265452-things-that-annoy-the-hell-out-of-you/page__view__findpost__p__4425673

 

 

Why would you send a murderer to rehab? Rehab is for drug addicts

Because that's a prime example of how bad the penal system is in my country.

 

I find that hard to believe, got a link?

If it's true, that is bad, and is not at all what I am talking about

[OldJoe]

 

You also have to take the victim/victims family into account. If a daughter is murderd, the murderer is 16, how do you think the family would feel if the murderer only has to go thru some "treatment"? There needs to be consequences from actions.

http://forum.tip.it/topic/265452-things-that-annoy-the-hell-out-of-you/page__view__findpost__p__4425673

 

 

Why would you send a murderer to rehab? Rehab is for drug addicts

Because that's a prime example of how bad the penal system is in my country.

 

I find that hard to believe, got a link?

If it's true, that is bad, and is not at all what I am talking about

http://www.dagen.se/dagen/article.aspx?id=220867

Use google translator swedish - english

[Azvareth]

we are only the number 2 in the world when it comes to reported rapes per capita in the world.

 

One explanation for this which probably amps up our percentage by a bunch is because the definition of rape is much looser here in Sweden than in other countries. For example, it doesn't require forced penetration for it to be called rape. Additionally, some countries don't regard rape within marriage, date rape or even homosexual rape as "rape" at all, so they don't report it, which I'd imagine skews the statistics quite a bit.