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Should Endgame Quests Require Awesome Levels?


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#101
SirHartlar
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1. Dungeoneering is a quest.
- Dungeoneering is a quest because it presents a problem to solve, a backstory, a plot, a foreseeable conclusion to the story, is full of puzzles, has (multiple) boss fights, and forces the player to utilize his/her skills and ingenuity to progress through the story. Quests often contain at least some of those aspects.
- As with most quest series, the story of Dungeoneering is released in multiple parts.
- The storyline in Dungeoneering is directly related to (and may directly affect) existing storylines in Runescape.
- The story is told via clues found by the player as they descend into Daemonheim, which is a very common storytelling device in nearly all mediums of storytelling.


- Dungeoneering tells you to keep going through the dungeons. Daemonnheim provides a backstory and a plot that has (possibly) already ended. Boss fights and puzzles that forces you to use your skills are not exclusive to quests, which also uses them to some degree, along with minigames and D&D's
-As with most quests, Daemonheim provides it's story in segments. Daemonheim is not dungeoneering
-The story in Daemonheim is directly related to (and will, most likely, affect) existing storylines in Runescape. Daemonheim is not dungeoneering
- The story is told via clues found by the player as they descend into Daemonheim, which is a very common storytelling device in nearly all mediums of storytelling. Daemonheim is not Dungeoneering.

See the difference now? Daemonheim will eventually be a quest area, but not thanks to Dungeoneering. Dungeoneering doesn't have a plot. Daemonheim has a backstory, Dungeoneering is not Daemonheim.

Due to this, every single line written in those cronicles, diaries and letters do not belong to Dungeoneering, but to Daemonheim. The skill has no plot. The closest thing to a plot Dungeoneeing has is "We are the Fremnicks, explore the dungeons in trade of rewards". Similar to minigames.


Daemonheim is dungeoneering...

#102
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Daemonheim is a location. Dungeoneering is a skill.

It's like saying hostpital and healing are the same thing.

And obturian, Dungeons of Daemonheim is not dungoneering either, dungeoneering just takes place in them.

Edited by Demoli, 30 August 2010 - 07:02 PM.


#103
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Daemonheim is a location. Dungeoneering is a skill.

It's like saying hostpital and healing are the same thing.


Semantics, semantics, semantics. You heal in hospitals, you explore Daemonheim in Dungeoneering. :rolleyes: Please at least ATTEMPT to provide a valid argument.

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To put it bluntly, [bleep] off.


#104
SirHartlar
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Daemonheim is a location. Dungeoneering is a skill.

It's like saying hostpital and healing are the same thing.


I didn't mean it as figuratively as that, but to talk of Dungeoneering is to talk of Daemonheim. You can't have one without the other.

Daemonheim is a vast dungeon where you can train your Dungeoneering skill, which will, in turn, allow you to delve deeper in Daemonheim, bringing you closer to the secrets found in its depths.



#105
Demoli
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If you think a location and an action are the same thing, then i don't have much to say to you here.

This is my last post in this thread.

@ Sit Hartlar, that is also selective: While dungeoneering is attached to daemonheim, Daemonheim is not attached to dungeoneering. While dungeoneering is tha action to delve deeper into daemonheim, Daemonheim is the location, which would still be there without you to explore it.

#106
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If you think a location and an action are the same thing, then i don't have much to say to you here.

This is my last post in this thread.


Yay for black and white arguments! "HOSPITALS DON'T HEAL PEOPLE, DOCTORS DO! LOLOLOLOL!"

Anyway, I'm glad you're finally quitting. You lost the debate a long time ago.

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To put it bluntly, [bleep] off.


#107
SirHartlar
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If you think a location and an action are the same thing, then i don't have much to say to you here.

This is my last post in this thread.

@ Sit Hartlar, that is also selective: While dungeoneering is attached to daemonheim, Daemonheim is not attached to dungeoneering. While dungeoneering is tha action to delve deeper into daemonheim, Daemonheim is the location, which would still be there without you to explore it.


Jagex added Daemonheim to the game as a seperate area for Dungeoneering, you can't say it isn't attached to the skill when it was specifically designed for said skill.

#108
Quyneax
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Daemonheim is a location. Dungeoneering is a skill.

It's like saying hostpital and healing are the same thing.

And obturian, Dungeons of Daemonheim is not dungoneering either, dungeoneering just takes place in them.

This is rather weak imo... there is nothing elso to Daemonheim but dungeoneering.

Can we now get back on-topic?

Aside from the highest skill levels required (which would be more suited to a questionnare, imo), what sort of bosses do you look forward to? Personally I love Mahjarrat fights (Enakhra's Lament anyone?) and I'd like to use the Stone of Jas/Staff of Armadyl to fight one.
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#109
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Daemonheim is a location. Dungeoneering is a skill.

It's like saying hostpital and healing are the same thing.


Semantics, semantics, semantics. You heal in hospitals, you explore Daemonheim in Dungeoneering. :rolleyes: Please at least ATTEMPT to provide a valid argument.

He didn't lose any argument. We've already refuted every of your points and you just keep coming back with the same arguments over an over again. This is why winning a debate with stubborn people is impossible. Also I find it ironic how you blame him for discussing semantics when you jump in the train yourself.

Summing up, there's no progress in the Daemonheim plot through dungeoneering, just discovery. Therefore, it's not a quest. End of. This said I'm out of the thread as well, at least of the Daemonheim discussion.
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#110
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Daemonheim is a location. Dungeoneering is a skill.

It's like saying hostpital and healing are the same thing.


Semantics, semantics, semantics. You heal in hospitals, you explore Daemonheim in Dungeoneering. :rolleyes: Please at least ATTEMPT to provide a valid argument.

He didn't lose any argument. We've already replied to every of your points and you just keep coming back with the same arguments over an over again. This is why winning a debate with stubborn people is impossible. Also I find it ironic how you blame him for discussing semantics when you jump in the train yourself.

Summing up, there's no progress in the Daemonheim plot through dungeoneering, just discovery. Therefore, it's not a quest. End of. This said I'm out of the thread as well, at least of the Daemonheim discussion.


Good job reading my last five or six posts. =D> Just kidding, you didn't read them. Neither you nor Demoli have met any of my arguments with valid counterarguments. You're welcome to actually READ my post further up the page where I've transcribed my entire argument into one neat little package, then respond to each of those points (which you can't, but I'll humor you).

I've never used semantics in any of my arguments on this thread, so I don't know what you're talking about there.

I'm glad you're leaving, too, 'cause I'd hate to have to continue debating something that I've proven ten times over. :rolleyes:

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#111
Louisc111
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Interesting. ~90% of the thread is a semantic quibble over whether or not Dungeoneering is an X or a Y. Way to miss the point fellas! ;-)

Thanks to everyone who answered, when I get a minute I'll sort the wheat from the chaff and try to extend the discussion beyond the "you're clearly a kiddy fiddler because Dungeoneering is actually some type of banana" level.


All skills 70+ again 16/06/2010

#112
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I really suggest jagex should add an ability to not have high skills but still quest, Like, basically add something OSF like to each quest where you can talk to a guy who will have you get something from someone who will have you get... etc, to do something to help you clear it, but you can also just use your skill to do it yourself if it is proficient enough.
Except for obvious things like if youre trapped you cant erally get someone to help

#113
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If you think a location and an action are the same thing, then i don't have much to say to you here.

This is my last post in this thread.


Yay for black and white arguments! "HOSPITALS DON'T HEAL PEOPLE, DOCTORS DO! LOLOLOLOL!"

Anyway, I'm glad you're finally quitting. You lost the debate a long time ago.


You're doing it wrong. It's "Guns don't kill people! People do!"

OT:

There should be a boundary, only on quests that are not named 'Grandmaster'. The definition of a Grandmaster quest involves combat, solving puzzles, and skilling. Therefore, Endgame quests shouldn't have to require awesome levels, but they can if JaGex wants to.

#114
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in my opinion, most of the posters here just want to play all the game content without the necessary prerequisites for that to be reasonable. think of game logics, not just yourself here for a minute:


i need level 85 hunter and 80 agility to catch a butterfly with my bare hands. How can you then be an epic quester with stats that are any lower?

As a casual gamer over many years myself, I can't help but notice that all skills lower than level 50, and all quest niches (other than dungeoneering, which is new) for these levels are filled. most skills are now close to 70, for the quest cape.

Also as a casual gamer over many years, i notice that all players playing the game to meet the quest cape requirements from new high quests, can reacquire their cape very rapidly after a new quest is released.

With the first "endgame skill" being released, and no quest requiring a level higher than 77 magic, i can't help but think to myself that jagex need to release at least one high level quest instead of the ludicrous process of slight increase after slight increase (while still releasing pointless low level quests, an area of the game that is already over-filled). At the current pace, there will never be an "elite quest".

Jagex think a lot about their lower-end players (hey 92 is only half-way). The upper half of the game, after level 92, is all but empty. requirements in the high 80s have been ripe for a couple of years already.

why not skip to a lvl 90 mining / construction / smithing quest in the dwarven quest series? Dwarfs are supposed to be inherently superior to humans in these respects, so game logic demands high human stats to be of any aid to the dwarfs at all. Elves? easily 90+ agility to compare to their grace and self-control.

Viking quests: good navigators, born fishermen and berserkers. why not 90 fishing and 90 strength to rid the north of future troubles?

void knights: the void knights need champions, leaders and heroes. 120 combat doesn't sound unreasonable, with summoning and all.


two high level quests per one non-high level quest sounds reasonable, the upper half of the game has 0 quest points, the lower half has 308 and counting. That's quite a gap to close.


Hmmm.....
Easy for you to say considering your levels. You fail to post your stats, which would put your comments in perspective, so for the benefit of others here they are:

Personal scores for
nacho
Skills
Skills Level

Attack 99
Defence 99
Strength 99
Constitution 99
Ranged 99
Prayer 99
Magic 99
Cooking 99
Woodcutting 99
Fletching 99
Fishing 92
Firemaking 99
Crafting 91
Smithing 91
Mining 91
Herblore 97
Agility 96
Thieving 99
Slayer 99
Farming 92
Runecrafting 91
Hunter 97
Construction 90
Summoning 97
Dungeoneering 104

OT: BUT if we're talking about end-game quest requirements then the final end-game quest has to be maxed out surely? The master quest cape would take on an animated appearance making it clear to all that not only your stats are maxed out but you have the cape to prove it.

Quests have been about progression. For me it was about gaining the xp from certain quests to raise my skill levels. As i got deeper into the game, those quests became more challenging, naturally so, allowing me to grow with the game. There have been a few occasions when a quest has come out and i didn't have the required levels, so it was my choice to chip and grind away in my own time until i was experienced enough. Also, in my ealry questing days, the plot lines used to act as a mini RS guide through the world of Gielinor. I found that aspect very rewarding.

In summary, the quest requirements must continue to become more challenging in terms of levels, that's the custom and practice of the established game, but for goodness sake let's finish some of those old storylines off.
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#115
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I don't really think my levels have anything to do with the argument though. my opinion was the same when i was training hard to do legends, after that i've never had to train for a quest.


here have been a few occasions when a quest has come out and i didn't have the required levels, so it was my choice to chip and grind away in my own time until i was experienced enough.


shouldn't that happen regularly though? isn't that when you find goals, things you wish to achieve rather than instant gratification after finishing a quest in the week of its release?


i liked the level of requirements for the elite diaries: a lot of them were "easy" yet a few in each diary had high levels. the mid-levels were to a large degree skipped, because they aren't really that interesting (yet). that's what i meant when jagex should skip the mid-levels for now, realize their lower-level game is as good as saturated, and create some elite content, before elite players quit, having "completed" the game, other than grinding aspects.

I especially loved the 96 fishing requirement, which seemed like a new goal for me, until i remembered summer pies boost more than fishing potions.

#116
Michael
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I don't really think my levels have anything to do with the argument though. my opinion was the same when i was training hard to do legends, after that i've never had to train for a quest.


here have been a few occasions when a quest has come out and i didn't have the required levels, so it was my choice to chip and grind away in my own time until i was experienced enough.


shouldn't that happen regularly though? isn't that when you find goals, things you wish to achieve rather than instant gratification after finishing a quest in the week of its release?


i liked the level of requirements for the elite diaries: a lot of them were "easy" yet a few in each diary had high levels. the mid-levels were to a large degree skipped, because they aren't really that interesting (yet). that's what i meant when jagex should skip the mid-levels for now, realize their lower-level game is as good as saturated, and create some elite content, before elite players quit, having "completed" the game, other than grinding aspects.

I especially loved the 96 fishing requirement, which seemed like a new goal for me, until i remembered summer pies boost more than fishing potions.



I agree, it would be better if the so called "Master" and "Grandmaster" quests actually required some training on my part, rather than just another quest with low requirements. The highest level required by any quest is 75, that is a mere 1.2m exp, not really masterful is it?

#117
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Eventually, I think we should see 85-90 quest requirements. It should be done in increments and announced ahead of time to allow me to train to those, however.


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#118
Michael
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Quest requirements have been slowly creeping up for a while now, they just need to speed it up.

#119
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i agree, if you pay attention to the journals 1-120 dung is the end game grandmaster quest

the storyline will finish with wapred floors, and f60 will be the rift floor with bilrach as the final boss
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#120
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You're doing it wrong. It's "Guns don't kill people! People do!"


I believe the proper phrase is "Guns don't kill people! Bullets do!" Unless you plan on pistol whipping them to death.

Oh, and I hear that Ritual of the Mahjarrat, the next grandmaster quest, is going to require 83 fletching, and I think that's its highest of its requirements.
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