Eye for an eye

[Zierro]

First of all, there are absolute truths concerning morality. Yes, counter-intuitive, but allow me to attempt to explain. Now, imagine the worst life possible: it will involve, murder, rape, loneliness, disease, short-lifespan, pain, death and assorted unpleasantness. Now, imagine the best: it will involve a long, healthy life, financial and social success, etc. Those are absolutes. There is not a single, mentally stable person on the planet that would choose the former over the latter.

 

That's the beauty behind an eye for an eye. A man who thinks stealing is not wrong should not be bothered if others want to steal from him, but this is not the case, therefore he does believe said action is wrong and you are showing that to him. The reason he steals is not because he doesn't consider it immoral - he does it because he lacks the empathy to care.

 

Since it's so fun to quote the Bible in this thread: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

(I'll never understand why some people think an eye for an eye is just masked sadism. It's an educational strategy if you ask me.)

[Skeptical]

Does a strategy of an eye for an eye create a happier, more stable world? Is it working towards the shared goals of humanity? Neither, and even punishment we now know is less essential than prevention and debilitation.

[Giordano]

Does a strategy of an eye for an eye create a happier, more stable world? Is it working towards the shared goals of humanity? Neither, and even punishment we now know is less essential than prevention and debilitation.

Punishment as a whole is utterly worthless for what's done has been done.

 

But I don't see why we can't make an example of a rapist.

[Skeptical]

Because stable, well adjusted people do not generally rape, pillage, and murder: those despicable acts tend to be committed by those who are mentally unstable and were abused themselves.

 

When you say "make an example" I agree, there should be some form of punishment... not the death penalty, and not necessarily a prison sentence, though.

[Zierro]

Does a strategy of an eye for an eye create a happier, more stable world? Is it working towards the shared goals of humanity? Neither, and even punishment we now know is less essential than prevention and debilitation.

 

It's commonsense to know not to touch fire a second time since you don't want to get burned. A negative consequence generally makes it more likely for someone to stay away from something. Without the involvement of one's own self-interest on the line, people would commit crime on an even grander scale, so it is prevention.

 

Because stable, well adjusted people do not generally rape, pillage, and murder: those despicable acts tend to be committed by those who are mentally unstable and were abused themselves.

 

Generally they are considered unstable after the fact. Also, there are no excuses for doing something like raping a woman or murdering an innocent child, no matter who you are.

 

When you say "make an example" I agree, there should be some form of punishment... not the death penalty, and not necessarily a prison sentence, though.

 

Then if you don't want criminals to get off the hook and you don't want them to go to jail, what do you propose?

[Dupin]

Does a strategy of an eye for an eye create a happier, more stable world? Is it working towards the shared goals of humanity? Neither, and even punishment we now know is less essential than prevention and debilitation.

 

It's commonsense to know not to touch fire a second time since you don't want to get burned. A negative consequence generally makes it more likely for someone to stay away from something. Without the involvement of one's own self-interest on the line, people would commit crime on an even grander scale, so it is prevention.

 

When you say "make an example" I agree, there should be some form of punishment... not the death penalty, and not necessarily a prison sentence, though.

 

Then if you don't want criminals to get off the hook and you don't want them to go to jail, what do you propose?

If the punishments really worked the way you claim they do, there would be no need for this discussion. If punishments worked as prevention, then we would not actually have to punish anyone.

 

Someone who commits a serious crime, or rather, an unusual crime, has mental issues, and should be rehabilitated in some sort of mental facility. The focus is rehabilitation, not punishment.

 

General petty crimes, and more serious crimes in a crime-filled area, are a result of the environment. In order to prevent these crimes, the environment needs to change. This is real prevention - you remove the cause rather than creating a threat.

[Zierro]

If the punishments really worked the way you claim they do, there would be no need for this discussion. If punishments worked as prevention, then we would not actually have to punish anyone.

 

What? Are you implying that unless crime is completely void in this world, punishment is not a deterrent?

 

Not every single person is going to fear the punishment to the point of scaring them out of it, but you can't deny that it has been a main motivating factor for potential criminals to not go through with it and become an actual criminal. Prison is holding many people back from doing things they would like to do, including people I personally know. For starters, how many people don't drink and drive because they don't want legal trouble?

 

Someone who commits a serious crime, or rather, an unusual crime, has mental issues, and should be rehabilitated in some sort of mental facility. The focus is rehabilitation, not punishment.

 

Oh... one of these "My brain did it! Not me!" arguments again. I love these. :mrgreen: If someone chooses to murder a person, they chose to murder a person. Being bullied does not excuse it any more so than waking up on the wrong side of the bed or having a bad rash. The only exceptions would be people who literally do not understand what they are doing. Most murderers and rapists know full well what they are doing, and some can even be pretty intelligent.

 

General petty crimes, and more serious crimes in a crime-filled area, are a result of the environment. In order to prevent these crimes, the environment needs to change. This is real prevention - you remove the cause rather than creating a threat.

 

CAN SOMEONE BRING THIS MAN A CAN OF REALISM, HE'S ABOUT TO HURT HIMSELF!!@! No but seriously, I agree that changing environmental factors can have a good influence, but it's no replacement for punishment. I think we all know that people will still commit crime - it would just be filtered a little more, deterring it. Same goes for punishment. It doesn't stop everybody, but some are affected, therefore it is a deterrent.

[Dupin]

Perhaps you should open up a can of realism yourself.

 

If the punishments really worked the way you claim they do, there would be no need for this discussion. If punishments worked as prevention, then we would not actually have to punish anyone.

 

What? Are you implying that unless crime is completely void in this world, punishment is not a deterrent?

 

Not every single person is going to fear the punishment to the point of scaring them out of it, but you can't deny that it has been a main motivating factor for potential criminals to not go through with it and become an actual criminal. Prison is holding many people back from doing things they would like to do, including people I personally know. For starters, how many people don't drink and drive because they don't want legal trouble?

I'm glad you brought up this example, because it proves my point. You can't seriously believe people are out there saying "Oh man, I would get so drunk right now and speed around town in my Porsche, but I'm worried the about TEH FUZZ". Intelligent people choose not to drink and drive because they'd like to keep their vehicles intact and their brains in their heads.

 

Someone who commits a serious crime, or rather, an unusual crime, has mental issues, and should be rehabilitated in some sort of mental facility. The focus is rehabilitation, not punishment.

 

Oh... one of these "My brain did it! Not me!" arguments again. I love these. :mrgreen:

Read it again. My point is that this person is unusual, and has something wrong with his thought processes. Therefore, throwing him in the hole for a few decades will only make him more unusual, and harm the people around him (which is another issue with the punishment system - it creates these unusual people out of petty criminals).

 

General petty crimes, and more serious crimes in a crime-filled area, are a result of the environment. In order to prevent these crimes, the environment needs to change. This is real prevention - you remove the cause rather than creating a threat.

 

CAN SOMEONE BRING THIS MAN A CAN OF REALISM, HE'S ABOUT TO HURT HIMSELF!!@! No but seriously, I agree that changing environmental factors can have a good influence, but it's no replacement for punishment. I think we all know that people will still commit crime - it would just be filtered a little more, deterring it. Same goes for punishment. It doesn't stop everybody, but some are affected, therefore it is a deterrent.

In an absolutely perfect (read: theoretical) society, common people would not commit crime. For those few uncommon ones, see the second response.

[Zierro]

I'm glad you brought up this example, because it proves my point. You can't seriously believe people are out there saying "Oh man, I would get so drunk right now and speed around town in my Porsche, but I'm worried the about TEH FUZZ". Intelligent people choose not to drink and drive because they'd like to keep their vehicles intact and their brains in their heads.

 

The world is not full of intelligent people. And are you seriously claiming that people are never held back by the law? Lol. So that means anyone who said they would do stuff like that are liars.

 

Read it again. My point is that this person is unusual, and has something wrong with his thought processes. Therefore, throwing him in the hole for a few decades will only make him more unusual, and harm the people around him (which is another issue with the punishment system - it creates these unusual people out of petty criminals).

 

I understand your point fully. You think a couple classes and a firm talking to with a serial killer will guide him to the path of righteousness, while Johnny over here is contemplating a bank robbery but then comes to his senses - not because he doesn't want to ruin his life going to prison, but because he saw an inspirational commercial. That sounds a little unrealistic to me. Although I do agree that jail can pose a problem for major criminals. They are still interacting with a portion of society and living in a crime-infested environment which is a dangerous concoction. Jail itself is a flawed system, but picture the alternatives. Can you tell me with complete honesty what you think the succession rate of rehabilitating a killer is? Some people can't be reasoned with, namely people who like killing people for fun. If someone is a major threat to society, it's safest to keep them away from everyone, including other prisoners. The death penalty is extreme I know, but so is allowing them another chance to kill the innocent.

 

Perhaps you should open up a can of realism yourself.

 

I have, and realism is actually the very foundation of all of my opinions on this matter. I don't deny the fact that some [many] people want to commit the crime, but they don't want to do the time. I also don't believe serial killers can just be put in rehabilitation centers and get "fixed" that easily.

[Bloodstain]

Another topic with people who know nothing about corrections and criminal justice talking about punishment, joy

 

Most murderers and rapists know

 

Love how pro-punishment/eye for an eye/whatever you want to call it people always use the most extreme and rare criminals.

[Lenticular_J]

If retribution is what you seek, it should be swift and merciless. Do not dedicate your life to revenge; instead, wreak your vengeance by living a good life despite evils done unto you.

[Skeptical]

Or, seek to understand why it is that this person is so twisted as to wish to commit evil, and then take the appropriated course of action to reduce the risk of it being committed again as much as possible.

 

Although we can all just throw everyone in jail:

In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at year-end — 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults.

[Zierro]

Love how pro-punishment/eye for an eye/whatever you want to call it people always use the most extreme and rare criminals.

 

Because those are the ones that cause the most harm to society. They are the cases we should be most cautious about. In fact, I'm not really that bothered by any other crime. It's the people going around destroying innocent lives that are the issue.

 

Another topic with people who know nothing about corrections and criminal justice talking about punishment, joy

 

I like how you don't even attempt to prove me wrong and go straight for my credibility now. I guess I finally scared you off. \:D/

[obfuscator]

Jail is largely ineffective, at least in a rehabilitative sense. In fact, many people come out far worse then they go in..

 

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

[Giordano]

Another topic with people who know nothing about corrections and criminal justice talking about punishment, joy

You don't need to be an expert on criminal justice to understand how messed up the system is when you or someone you care about cannot get proper justice.

 

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So why aren't the cops in prison? They must be in prison since they jailed so many people.

 

What the "eye for an eye people" want is the same concept as now, just harsher punishments.

[obfuscator]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So why aren't the cops in prison? They must be in prison since they jailed so many people.

 

What the "eye for an eye people" want is the same concept as now, just harsher punishments.

Disregard it, it's just a silly quote.

 

I know what the "eye for an eye people" want, I just don't see how it will help.

 

Capital punishment could be considered the harshest punishment available, yet serious violent crime in areas where capital punishment is available is typically higher or even per capita.

 

I read a story once, I think someone posted it here, about a guy who gets sent to jail for drug possesion. The gist of the story is is that he has a bad habit he's trying break. He fails, and then goes to jail. What happens in jail don't help him break it, they make it worse. He's far more of a violent, dangerous criminal when he gets out then he was going in.

 

That's how "whole world blind" works. When you punish based on revenge, you don't help the problem...you make it worse.

 

Not all criminals can be rehabilitated. For some, there's no way they can ever contribute to society, and for those, life in prison is what we need to give. But the ones who can be rehabilitated(and there are many)....it seems very foolish not to try, at least.

[Surprise]

Killing somebody is a better way out than imprisonment. Well it used to before the gaols became soft and human rights were applied to prisoners.

 

"I am not sorry neither. I’d have thee live, For in my sense ’tis happiness to die."

[dusky]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So why aren't the cops in prison? They must be in prison since they jailed so many people.

 

What the "eye for an eye people" want is the same concept as now, just harsher punishments.

Disregard it, it's just a silly quote.

 

I know what the "eye for an eye people" want, I just don't see how it will help.

 

Capital punishment could be considered the harshest punishment available, yet serious violent crime in areas where capital punishment is available is typically higher or even per capita.

 

I read a story once, I think someone posted it here, about a guy who gets sent to jail for drug possesion. The gist of the story is is that he has a bad habit he's trying break. He fails, and then goes to jail. What happens in jail don't help him break it, they make it worse. He's far more of a violent, dangerous criminal when he gets out then he was going in.

 

That's how "whole world blind" works. When you punish based on revenge, you don't help the problem...you make it worse.

 

Not all criminals can be rehabilitated. For some, there's no way they can ever contribute to society, and for those, life in prison is what we need to give. But the ones who can be rehabilitated(and there are many)....it seems very foolish not to try, at least.

The problem with what your saying is that the vast majority of criminals can be rehabiliated. Just because there are a few pychopathic killers doesnt mean you should execute everyone whos in for murder. What you seem to be suggesting is to re-model the system for the small percentage of sick people.

[Giordano]

Disregard it, it's just a silly quote.

 

I know what the "eye for an eye people" want, I just don't see how it will help.

 

Capital punishment could be considered the harshest punishment available, yet serious violent crime in areas where capital punishment is available is typically higher or even per capita.

 

I read a story once, I think someone posted it here, about a guy who gets sent to jail for drug possesion. The gist of the story is is that he has a bad habit he's trying break. He fails, and then goes to jail. What happens in jail don't help him break it, they make it worse. He's far more of a violent, dangerous criminal when he gets out then he was going in.

 

That's how "whole world blind" works. When you punish based on revenge, you don't help the problem...you make it worse.

 

Not all criminals can be rehabilitated. For some, there's no way they can ever contribute to society, and for those, life in prison is what we need to give. But the ones who can be rehabilitated(and there are many)....it seems very foolish not to try, at least.

 

Well, besides the whole harsher punishments thing, I think we should really change the laws and degree of punishments for certain crimes. That drug example is something I cannot argue against, but that is the government's fault for allowing such a minor offense become a serious crime.

 

But in the end, justice is just a human emotion. There's no logic to it, we can't fix what was broken. I just know though that I want some serious ass kicking to those who do serious harm to me or people I care.

[Skeptical]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So why aren't the cops in prison? They must be in prison since they jailed so many people.

 

What the "eye for an eye people" want is the same concept as now, just harsher punishments.

Disregard it, it's just a silly quote.

 

I know what the "eye for an eye people" want, I just don't see how it will help.

 

Capital punishment could be considered the harshest punishment available, yet serious violent crime in areas where capital punishment is available is typically higher or even per capita.

 

I read a story once, I think someone posted it here, about a guy who gets sent to jail for drug possesion. The gist of the story is is that he has a bad habit he's trying break. He fails, and then goes to jail. What happens in jail don't help him break it, they make it worse. He's far more of a violent, dangerous criminal when he gets out then he was going in.

 

That's how "whole world blind" works. When you punish based on revenge, you don't help the problem...you make it worse.

 

Not all criminals can be rehabilitated. For some, there's no way they can ever contribute to society, and for those, life in prison is what we need to give. But the ones who can be rehabilitated(and there are many)....it seems very foolish not to try, at least.

 

Very well put.

[Giordano]

The whole idea doesn't make sense.

 

Guy 1 stabs Guy 2's eyes out.

 

Populace that believes in eye for an eye says, "Hey! Let's put his eyes out! That'll show him!"

 

And at the end of the day nothing is gained and we have two more blind guys rather than just one.

 

But in the end, justice is just a human emotion. There's no logic to it, we can't fix what was broken. I just know though that I want some serious ass kicking to those who do serious harm to me or people I care, usually people have the same feelings...once it happens to them.

[Zierro]

Why don't we just kill everyone who makes mistakes? We'd have a world full of perfect people.

 

This thread is about murderers and rapists - not anyone who makes a mistake.

 

That drug example is something I cannot argue against, but that is the government's fault for allowing such a minor offense become a serious crime.

 

Exactly. The degrees of punishment just aren't proportionate right now. (Someone getting a harsher sentence for selling pills than someone who raped.)

 

The whole idea doesn't make sense.

 

Guy 1 stabs Guy 2's eyes out.

 

Populace that believes in eye for an eye says, "Hey! Let's put his eyes out! That'll show him!"

 

And at the end of the day nothing is gained and we have two more blind guys rather than just one.

 

Guy 3, 4, and 5 don't get their eyes stabbed out by Guy 1 now.

[obfuscator]

The problem with what your saying is that the vast majority of criminals can be rehabiliated. Just because there are a few pychopathic killers doesnt mean you should execute everyone whos in for murder. What you seem to be suggesting is to re-model the system for the small percentage of sick people.

 

No, what I'm saying is that we re-model the system for the large percentage who can be rehabilitated, and keep the current system for the sick ones :P

 

 

 

Well, besides the whole harsher punishments thing, I think we should really change the laws and degree of punishments for certain crimes. That drug example is something I cannot argue against, but that is the government's fault for allowing such a minor offense become a serious crime.

 

But in the end, justice is just a human emotion. There's no logic to it, we can't fix what was broken. I just know though that I want some serious ass kicking to those who do serious harm to me or people I care.

 

I wouldn't say justice is a human emotion. Revenge is, certainly; and unfortunately the two are intricately tied.

[Zierro]

I've given you statistics on this before, and you just ignored them.

 

I told you why those statistics don't prove that "punishment does not deter crime", and you ignored it. Since you want to throw around fancy talk with me: Correlation =/= causation.

 

As far as it being a slippery slope... Unless you incarcerate a serial killer, nothing is stopping him from continuing. Do you know how many times cops had to shoot someone because they were too violent and rampant and just weren't going to be reasoned with? What do you suggest they do then, allow more innocent casualties? We are living a lot safer because criminals like that are contained and because criminals like that are deterred and because criminals like that are gone. But please, go on and ignore all of these facts.

 

PS: Just out of curiosity, what would constitute as me not ignoring your statistics? "OHHH. You're right Roccodog. Nobody has ever ever changed their mind about committing a crime because of the punishment." For the hundredth time, just because all the murder and rape in the world don't come to a screeching halt does not prove that people don't avoid punishment.

[Bloodstain]

 

I told you why those statistics don't prove that "punishment does not deter crime", and you ignored it. Since you want to throw around fancy talk with me: Correlation =/= causation.

 

 

So then prove that capital punishment works. Prove it, we've given you evidence that shows otherwise, now let's see why you say it works. "Well only a small amount of people commit murder" isn't proof. You also assume that people who kill are cold blooded murderers who consciously make the decision to kill and weight the consequences.