International Criminal Court

[tml]

 

I must point out a number of factual errors in your post, tml.

 

First, if Egypt really is a better place to live than Libya, please explain to me why 1/3 of the Libyan population - aka 2 million people - is made up of migrant workers from Egypt. I don't think it fits with the general pattern of migration for people to migrate somewhere in search of worse living conditions.

 

Second, thought the casualties for the war as a whole far exceed 1,000 - at around 10,000 or so - most of these are what NATO calls "collateral", or civilians who have died in the fighting. Let us not forget that Qaddafi has not been killing civilians in Tripoli - a massive support base for him - but in fact civilian deaths there have been caused by the no-fly zone. I'm not saying Qaddafi hasn't been killing civilians, but so has NATO, and I don't really think either has a moral highground. But certainly your figures for the deaths caused by Qaddafi are totally erroneous.

 

Not killing civillians in Tripoli? How many videos do you want me to post? Are you blind as well as deluded?

 

And no Tripoli is no support base of his. Neither is Sirte. Or Sabha. Or Tarhuna. Or Bin Wled. They just have a heavy security presence. Tripoli alone has a dozen military bases. Benghazi had 1. Misrata only had the Air Force academy.

 

As for the "tribal" aspect. Thats also a load of bull. I can post a hundred videos of statements from every single tribe pledging allegiance to the revolution.

 

Don't think to educate me about my country. Don't think to accuse me of being of the "eastern tribes" that are "loyal to the king" (hah as if). I'm from the North Western part of the country.

 

As for the flag we fly, its not because of the damn king. We fly it because its Libyans independence flag after we gave the Italians a taste of what the dog is getting now.

[Ginger_Warrior]

People migrate for a whole number of reasons, not just because location x is poorer than destination y. British universities are pretty much bankrolled by Chinese students who due to their foreign nationality have to pay about three times as much in tuition fees than anyone else. You'd be foolish to suggest the UK economy is better than China's. There are ex-pats from countries across the developed world who move to third world countries for a whole host of reasons.

 

You can't simplify it to Egypt > Libya.

[Crocefisso]

Not killing civillians in Tripoli? How many videos do you want me to post? Are you blind as well as deluded?

 

And no Tripoli is no support base of his. Neither is Sirte. Or Sabha. Or Tarhuna. Or Bin Wled. They just have a heavy security presence. Tripoli alone has a dozen military bases. Benghazi had 1. Misrata only had the Air Force academy.

 

As for the "tribal" aspect. Thats also a load of bull. I can post a hundred videos of statements from every single tribe pledging allegiance to the revolution.

 

Don't think to educate me about my country. Don't think to accuse me of being of the "eastern tribes" that are "loyal to the king" (hah as if). I'm from the North Western part of the country.

 

As for the flag we fly, its not because of the damn king. We fly it because its Libyans independence flag after we gave the Italians a taste of what the dog is getting now.

 

Strange, tml, that everything you say seems to: a) concur exactly with the rebel arguments and statements, and b) contradict what every other Libyan I've spoken to has told me.

 

If all of these things you say are true, then please explain to me:

-why, before NATO bombings started, Qaddafi went around Tripoli in an open top vehicle, surrounded by crowds of people, and yet none of them so much as shouted something negative, let alone attacked him, which I would expect if he was as unpopular there as you say

-how it is that Libya has suddenly abandoned all its tribal ties in the past few months, as if by magic, and totally revolutionised itself

-why this civil war, if it is supported by all these tribes and the people of Libya and has NATO air support, cannot seem to beat a Qaddafi force of no more than 20,000 men

-how Qaddafi is keeping all these towns under his control, and fighting a war at the same time, all with just 20,000 troops or less

 

I personally think it's time Qaddafi left. But I think that you are trying to make the support for the rebels seem greater than it is. The fact you're posting on TIF makes me believe you're almost certainly not currently living in Libya. Reports from Libya today show - as fact - that the support for the rebels is not on the same scale as Egypt, for example, in which millions protested in Cairo, Alexandria, and across the country. The scale of protests in Libya was far smaller, and the scale of the fighting far smaller.

[Crocefisso]

People migrate for a whole number of reasons, not just because location x is poorer than destination y. British universities are pretty much bankrolled by Chinese students who due to their foreign nationality have to pay about three times as much in tuition fees than anyone else. You'd be foolish to suggest the UK economy is better than China's. There are ex-pats from countries across the developed world who move to third world countries for a whole host of reasons.

 

You can't simplify it to Egypt > Libya.

 

But if 2 million of 6 million people in a country are migrant workers from Egypt, and the same country has Africa's highest HDI, and once had a GDP per capita of 104% of the USA (brought down by sanctions and corruption), I think you can make a pretty safe assumption that said country has at least something going for it.

[tml]

 

b) contradict what every other Libyan I've spoken to has told me.

 

And racists say they have black friends.

 

-why, before NATO bombings started, Qaddafi went around Tripoli in an open top vehicle, surrounded by crowds of people, and yet none of them so much as shouted something negative, let alone attacked him, which I would expect if he was as unpopular there as you say

 

Never happened. He went around at high speeds in the very heart of the capital with little crowds and after he had just finished crushing the first wave of protests. He can't do it again because the people have guns. His dogs rule the streets in the morning and are hunted down at night.

 

-how it is that Libya has suddenly abandoned all its tribal ties in the past few months, as if by magic, and totally revolutionised itself

 

You overestimate by a long shot the tribal aspect of the country.

That said, the tribes don't hate each other. They've never fought wars against each other. Ever.

 

-why this civil war, if it is supported by all these tribes and the people of Libya and has NATO air support, cannot seem to beat a Qaddafi force of no more than 20,000 men.

 

Because we started of with nothing (for your information, since you seem to have zero knowledge on Libya, guns are non-existent amongst the masses). He started off with this.

 

(video taken from his dead dogs)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-l1GprUhAQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpW-AKnF4-o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gt4CRaY9YQ

 

Its amazing what 40 years of oil wealth can buy you.

 

-how Qaddafi is keeping all these towns under his control, and fighting a war at the same time, all with just 20,000 troops or less

 

Because a hundred well armed soldiers and snipers can shut down a city. Especially when said cities occupants start off unarmed. Every gun in revolutionary hands came from being taken in battle.

 

 

I personally think it's time Qaddafi left. But I think that you are trying to make the support for the rebels seem greater than it is. The fact you're posting on TIF makes me believe you're almost certainly not currently living in Libya. Reports from Libya today show - as fact - that the support for the rebels is not on the same scale as Egypt, for example, in which millions protested in Cairo, Alexandria, and across the country. The scale of protests in Libya was far smaller, and the scale of the fighting far smaller.

 

Keep on flaunting your ignorance. Egypt's population is 80 million. A couple million people protesting is nothing. Thousands in Libya are equivalent to millions in Egypt.

[Crocefisso]

That said, the tribes don't hate each other. They've never fought wars against each other. Ever.

 

 

Other than this one.

 

Because we started of with nothing (for your information, since you seem to have zero knowledge on Libya, guns are non-existent amongst the masses). He started off with this.

 

 

This does not answer the question I am asking. I asked why Qaddafi still remains in control of most of the country today, following the destruction of massive amounts of his military hardware by NATO, rebels having been given massive amounts of arms by our governments, as well as strategic advice from them. If this were a truly popular uprising, then Qaddafi would not be in power following everything that's happened to his regime.

 

Because a hundred well armed soldiers and snipers can shut down a city. Especially when said cities occupants start off unarmed. Every gun in revolutionary hands came from being taken in battle.

 

 

No, most of them were gifts. Furthermore, my point is that in a truly popular urprising, a few hundred men cannot contain a city. The fact that they can in the case of Libya only shows that a majority of people, though they won't be for Qaddafi, do not support the rebels enough to rise up.

 

Keep on flaunting your ignorance. Egypt's population is 80 million. A couple million people protesting is nothing. Thousands in Libya are equivalent to millions in Egypt.

 

 

Incorrect. Egypt's protests reached 5 million people at one point, or 6% of the populace on the streets protesting.

 

Libya has 6 million people. 6% of the Libyan people is 360,000 people. Protests in Libya have yet to even exceed 10,000 in size, for either side.

[tml]

That said, the tribes don't hate each other. They've never fought wars against each other. Ever.

 

 

Other than this one.

 

Not a civil war. No tribes fighting each other. Us vs. a bunch of criminals from all over the country.

 

Us (North Western region of the country only for the sake of making a point):

Tripoli (Firnaj)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fWY0rnPnxQ

 

Tripoli (Tajoora)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egmp79vuef0&feature=related

 

Tripoli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqUjymKr8rc

 

Tripoli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntkEj74IdI

 

Tarhuna

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k2zwiYPOEk

 

Msillata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGzXcZNXlQs

 

Zlieten

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HnwMvJNSk4

 

Sabha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50F8xNu3nM4

 

Sirte

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUlT5SVuU28&feature=related

 

An Nawahal Al Arbaah (4 tribes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bItl5hN8Shk

 

Zawia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xhcimpyAvg

 

Bin Wleed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqb6Q8YfXtg

 

Go ask your "Libyan friend" to translate.

 

 

Because we started of with nothing (for your information, since you seem to have zero knowledge on Libya, guns are non-existent amongst the masses). He started off with this.

 

 

This does not answer the question I am asking.

 

Then you need to watch the videos. Take your blindfolds off first.

 

 

As for the numbers. Benghazi only has 600k people and is the second largest city. Most of the population lives in Tripoli were protests were thoroughly crushed by overwhelming force, as I showed earlier in the thread. No doubt you ignored the video.

 

The arms we've recieved are little in number. And, aside from France's recent drops, it has only been Qatar doing some arming.

 

...do not support the rebels enough to rise up.

 

Protests are met with overwhelming force. 25th February in Tripoil ended with over a couple of thousand dead.

 

Watch the video I posted earlier in the thread. I wont bother repeating myself.

[The_Gabe]

Do the ICC prosecute Israel, a supremacist state that far exceeds its right to self defence with its attempts at ethnic cleansing and occasional murders of Palestinian civilians? Of course not; Israel is a 'victim', in the eyes of the ICC.

What the [bleep]. Leave Israel out of this unless you want to go back to here.

[Furah]

If all of these things you say are true, then please explain to me:

-why, before NATO bombings started, Qaddafi went around Tripoli in an open top vehicle, surrounded by crowds of people, and yet none of them so much as shouted something negative, let alone attacked him, which I would expect if he was as unpopular there as you say

-how Qaddafi is keeping all these towns under his control, and fighting a war at the same time, all with just 20,000 troops or less

Stockholm syndrome.

 

A war is fought between two armies, I have only seen one army. He's fighting a losing battle anyway.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Do the ICC prosecute Israel, a supremacist state that far exceeds its right to self defence with its attempts at ethnic cleansing and occasional murders of Palestinian civilians? Of course not; Israel is a 'victim', in the eyes of the ICC.

What the [bleep]. Leave Israel out of this unless you want to go back to here.

His post was directed at the ICC. I'm not seeing the problem with it being posted here, it's hardly irrelevant. Seriously, if your style of arguing is just going to be 'Don't say [cabbage] about Israel' then you won't contribute very much to these discussions.

 

You're surely not suggesting that if evidence was found to implicate members of the IDF in war crimes, that they shouldn't have a trial simply for the fact they're from Israel, are you?

[Crocefisso]

tml, I think you and I should simply agree to disagree on this issue. In effect we're supporting the same side (aka of the mind that Qaddafi should go), but we differ on how much support Qaddafi and the rebels have and exactly what has been perepetrated.

 

I know you're never going to agree with me, and I know you're not going to change my mind, so let's just draw I line in the sand. I know how in danger our discussion is of descending into flames once you run out of videos and I run out of facts. :roll:

 

Irrespective of our differences, I wish your country a swift recovery once the civil war is over.

 

---

 

On a totally unrelated note, I think my stance on Israel has been misinterpreted owing to the concision of my opening post. Let my try and tell you where I stand on Israel:

-The Jewish people have every right to live in their ancestral homeland in peace and security, BUT this does not mean that Palestinian Arabs are not allowed to live in the land which has been their homeland for well over a millennium.

 

-The state of Israel is not an "apartheid" state, because Arabs have equal opportunity to Jews (though it is harder for them). It is, however, a supremacist state, because it does not allow many Palestinians back into their homeland, because their Zionist based ideology states that the state of Israel must remain a Jewish majority state.

 

-The Holy City of Jerusalem/Al-Quds is not the property of Israel alone, but must be shared by both Jews and Muslims alike. Israeli refusal to recognise the city's status as holy in Islam as well as Judaism, by refusing to share it with a prospective Palestinian state, reflects only the Israeli government's bigotry and arrogance

 

-AIPAC, the US pro-Israeli lobby group, frequently lies in order to coerce the USA into giving around 1/2 its foreign aid to Israel. For example, they enjoy claiming that Hizbullah run Lebanon; instead, Hizbullah are one of 14 political parties in the ruling bloc. This does not make them the leader of Lebanon

 

-Israel has a right to defend itslef, but its actions go far beyond this. They have blockaded Gaza - the most densely populated area of land on the planet - under the pretext of stopping arms influx there, so as to stop rocket attacks by Hamas. The idea that Hamas' sporadic rocket attacks did that much damage to such a well defended state is farcical. Meanwhile, the living conditions and humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsens day by day. In 2009, when a Turkish aid flotilla approaches, the IDF killed I thin around 7 unarmed civilians. Every knows the claims that these aid flotillas were armed is a load of nonsense. Then there's the 2006 war with Hizbullah, in which Israel used so many cluster bombs (illegal by international law) that large parts of southern Lebanon still cannot be inhabited to this day. These are just two recent examples, but Israel's disgusting actions are so numerous I would need a very long post indeed to cover them.

 

-I think that Turksih PM Recep Tayyip Erdogan, an ally of Israel before the 2009 event mentioned above, gives a brilliant summary of Israel in the video below.

 

[The_Gabe]

Do the ICC prosecute Israel, a supremacist state that far exceeds its right to self defence with its attempts at ethnic cleansing and occasional murders of Palestinian civilians? Of course not; Israel is a 'victim', in the eyes of the ICC.

What the [bleep]. Leave Israel out of this unless you want to go back to here.

His post was directed at the ICC. I'm not seeing the problem with it being posted here, it's hardly irrelevant. Seriously, if your style of arguing is just going to be 'Don't say [cabbage] about Israel' then you won't contribute very much to these discussions.

 

You're surely not suggesting that if evidence was found to implicate members of the IDF in war crimes, that they shouldn't have a trial simply for the fact they're from Israel, are you?

 

Uhh...

a supremacist state that far exceeds its right to self defence with its attempts at ethnic cleansing and occasional murders of Palestinian civilians?

I'm saying get the facts straight before posting such an outrages claim. Also, this thread's about Qaddafi. If you want, we can go back to the other thread and talk about what you would consider crimes.

[The_Gabe]

 

On a totally unrelated note, I think my stance on Israel has been misinterpreted owing to the concision of my opening post. Let my try and tell you where I stand on Israel:

-The Jewish people have every right to live in their ancestral homeland in peace and security, BUT this does not mean that Palestinian Arabs are not allowed to live in the land which has been their homeland for well over a millennium.

 

They are allowed to live there. Some of them may not be allowed to go back to their homes, but the security threats of the situation is real.

 

-The state of Israel is not an "apartheid" state, because Arabs have equal opportunity to Jews (though it is harder for them). It is, however, a supremacist state, because it does not allow many Palestinians back into their homeland, because their Zionist based ideology states that the state of Israel must remain a Jewish majority state.

 

So attempting to destroy a whole nation when it declared independence is better than not allowing some of the people who used to live there and fled so they can return when Israel was destroyed come back?

 

-The Holy City of Jerusalem/Al-Quds is not the property of Israel alone, but must be shared by both Jews and Muslims alike. Israeli refusal to recognise the city's status as holy in Islam as well as Judaism, by refusing to share it with a prospective Palestinian state, reflects only the Israeli government's bigotry and arrogance

 

Yet when the Arabs controlled the city, they did not allow Jews to go to our holy places, and they destroyed synagogues and desecrated cemeteries. It's not Israel's government that's bigotry and arrogant, it's just you and your lack of knowledge on the issue. As someone has said to you before; don't try and lecture me about my own country.

 

-AIPAC, the US pro-Israeli lobby group, frequently lies in order to coerce the USA into giving around 1/2 its foreign aid to Israel. For example, they enjoy claiming that Hizbullah run Lebanon; instead, Hizbullah are one of 14 political parties in the ruling bloc. This does not make them the leader of Lebanon

 

As we're talking about terrorist groups, did you know that Palestinians have terrorist groups as their allies?

 

-Israel has a right to defend itslef, but its actions go far beyond this. They have blockaded Gaza - the most densely populated area of land on the planet - under the pretext of stopping arms influx there, so as to stop rocket attacks by Hamas. The idea that Hamas' sporadic rocket attacks did that much damage to such a well defended state is farcical. Meanwhile, the living conditions and humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsens day by day. In 2009, when a Turkish aid flotilla approaches, the IDF killed I thin around 7 unarmed civilians. Every knows the claims that these aid flotillas were armed is a load of nonsense. Then there's the 2006 war with Hizbullah, in which Israel used so many cluster bombs (illegal by international law) that large parts of southern Lebanon still cannot be inhabited to this day. These are just two recent examples, but Israel's disgusting actions are so numerous I would need a very long post indeed to cover them.

 

Most densely populated area of the land on the planet? Are you being serious now? Please tell me how it's densely populated.

 

Next, if we remove the blockade from Gaza, what do you think will happen?

 

Also, if you want to talk about the flotilla, there's a whole thread about it already. Spewing up a few one-sided and actually lies about what happened does not make your statement any better.

 

Also, Turkey, a country which have oppressed the Kurds for decades, while the population of the Kurds far exceeds both the populations of Israel and Palestine, should not be trusted in this hypocritical situation at all.

 

Lastly, I have already a given you a link for the thread about Israel. If you want to continue this discussion, I suggest we do it there so we won't go off topic.

[tml]

tml, I think you and I should simply agree to disagree on this issue. In effect we're supporting the same side (aka of the mind that Qaddafi should go), but we differ on how much support Qaddafi and the rebels have and exactly what has been perepetrated.

 

I know you're never going to agree with me, and I know you're not going to change my mind, so let's just draw I line in the sand. I know how in danger our discussion is of descending into flames once you run out of videos and I run out of facts. :roll:

 

Irrespective of our differences, I wish your country a swift recovery once the civil war is over.

 

 

Oh, trying to be the better person? Hah.

 

More like you're running out of information pulled out of your ass and I show no sign of running out of hard facts.

[Crocefisso]

tml, I think you and I should simply agree to disagree on this issue. In effect we're supporting the same side (aka of the mind that Qaddafi should go), but we differ on how much support Qaddafi and the rebels have and exactly what has been perepetrated.

 

I know you're never going to agree with me, and I know you're not going to change my mind, so let's just draw I line in the sand. I know how in danger our discussion is of descending into flames once you run out of videos and I run out of facts. :roll:

 

Irrespective of our differences, I wish your country a swift recovery once the civil war is over.

 

 

Oh, trying to be the better person? Hah.

 

More like you're running out of information pulled out of your ass and I show no sign of running out of hard facts.

 

Give the vitriol a break.

[1_man_army]

Most densely populated area of the land on the planet? Are you being serious now? Please tell me how it's densely populated.

 

 

I know Wikipedia is never the most full proof source normally but it is referencing the CIA world factbook for the Gaza population density part so I'll use it for the sake of ease:

 

Gaza has a population density of 4118 people per square mile which if it were to be counted on its own (rather than as part of the Palestinian territories as a whole) would put it into 6th place. The Palestinian controlled areas in the West Bank aren't as densely populated which is why the Palestinian Territories as a whole are 20th (which is still pretty dense to be honest). Anyway, you see the point - the Gaza Strip is very densely populated.

 

 

Sources

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip - See the side bar for population density information.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density - This is the table used, it is slightly misleading in the sense that it counts certain territories like Macau outside of the nations that they are part of (China) but it is a good rough guide.

[tml]

tml, I think you and I should simply agree to disagree on this issue. In effect we're supporting the same side (aka of the mind that Qaddafi should go), but we differ on how much support Qaddafi and the rebels have and exactly what has been perepetrated.

 

I know you're never going to agree with me, and I know you're not going to change my mind, so let's just draw I line in the sand. I know how in danger our discussion is of descending into flames once you run out of videos and I run out of facts. :roll:

 

Irrespective of our differences, I wish your country a swift recovery once the civil war is over.

 

 

Oh, trying to be the better person? Hah.

 

More like you're running out of information pulled out of your ass and I show no sign of running out of hard facts.

 

Give the vitriol a break.

 

Prove me wrong. Try to argue my points instead of ignoring them.

 

How are protests supposed to happen when the enemy has this kind of force? Could you answer that?

 

2:04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl4b-rHsOJU&feature=player_detailpage#t=116s

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-l1GprUhAQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpW-AKnF4-o

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US_goEH0Zg

[Crocefisso]

tml, stop going on about Qaddafi's force, please. Everybody knows that Qaddafi has always kept a small armed force; he came to power by military coup and has been paranoid of the prospect of a recurrence ever since. Furthermore, what Qaddafi had was largely aging Soviet-era stuff. And most of that has since been destroyed by NATO. And yet the rebels still can't break the deadlock with any degree of decisiveness. Face it, there's not a chiasmic gap in terms of equipment any more. In February and March, there was. Today, in July, you're in denial if you believe there still is.

 

The problem the rebels have is their poor organisation.

 

You need to stop presenting these entirely one sided arguments, especially against other people who are glad to see the back of Qaddafi. You are the equivalent of Saif al-Islam in this respect.

 

The main point of this thread, which has been lost, was simply to point out that though Qaddafi should be tried, too many people escape ICC jurisdiction and yet perpetrate far, far worse crimes, and as I westerner I find such a fact distasteful and quite disappointing because, at the end of the day, international law should apply to all people, and yet clearly the rules do not apply to the world; rather, they were devised by some nations to be imposed upon others. These laws brush over cultural and societal differences, and I think the general concept of international law is flawed.

[tml]

The main point of this thread, which has been lost, was simply to point out that though Qaddafi should be tried, too many people escape ICC jurisdiction and yet perpetrate far, far worse crimes, and as I westerner I find such a fact distasteful and quite disappointing because, at the end of the day, international law should apply to all people, and yet clearly the rules do not apply to the world; rather, they were devised by some nations to be imposed upon others. These laws brush over cultural and societal differences, and I think the general concept of international law is flawed.

 

With regards to the ICC, I don't care about it. That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

tml, stop going on about Qaddafi's force, please. Everybody knows that Qaddafi has always kept a small armed force; he came to power by military coup and has been paranoid of the prospect of a recurrence ever since. Furthermore, what Qaddafi had was largely aging Soviet-era stuff. And most of that has since been destroyed by NATO. And yet the rebels still can't break the deadlock with any degree of decisiveness. Face it, there's not a chiasmic gap in terms of equipment any more. In February and March, there was. Today, in July, you're in denial if you believe there still is.

 

I'm not arguing about the current force breakdown. I'm arguing your point that Tripoli supports him, which the first video shows you're wrong.

 

And as to the military argument, you don't get it do you? Even today he has armaments that greatly exceed ours. Old Soviet gear is still effective against small arms.

 

As for numbers, the actual military may be "small", but he has a widespread force of his "revolutionary committee" (ie. secret police) that have been called up.

 

Look at the arms recently captured in the Western Mountains even after NATO bombed the place. Again, I repeat, 40+ years of oil money spent buying arms.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebMCeoRG5Bk

 

The problem the rebels have is their poor organisation.

That is dealt with now with training camps being set up. The reason they had no organization was because they're the people. Not an organized and highly trained military.

 

You need to stop presenting these entirely one sided arguments, especially against other people who are glad to see the back of Qaddafi. You are the equivalent of Saif al-Islam in this respect.

 

How are my arguments one sided? I'm arguing that 1+1=2 while you insist that it's actually 55.

 

"other people who are glad to see the back of Qaddafi" says the person who supports his acts a few decades ago.

 

In fact, you're quite the same as Saif Al-Shaitan, not me, with your deluded fantasy that Bo Shafshoofa was ever good for Libya and that he enjoys the support of its people.

[The_Gabe]

 

 

You need to stop presenting these entirely one sided arguments

 

Hypocrisy, thy name is you.

[Omar]

tml, while I haven't read enough to even say what the debate is now about, and I can already tell you're being impolite as can be. Stop being so aggressive, no one is convinced by people who yell.

[The_Gabe]

tml, while I haven't read enough to even say what the debate is now about, and I can already tell you're being impolite as can be. Stop being so aggressive, no one is convinced by people who yell.

 

Eh, what I'm waiting for is for Crocefisso to actually back up the information he's using with links.

[tml]

tml, while I haven't read enough to even say what the debate is now about, and I can already tell you're being impolite as can be. Stop being so aggressive, no one is convinced by people who yell.

 

Sorry but reading this

 

... and so in my books he was a good national leader. Alas, his leadership has since stagnated....

 

said about the creature who considered this

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjjW3i-i76g

 

to be a slow day, really pisses me off.

 

The creature who ordered the massacre of 1200 youths in Bu Sleem prison over the course of a couple of hours and has now seen to the complete destruction of various cities and towns throughout Libya as well as to the deaths of tens of thousands of people.

 

I don't care for being polite with people who would care to name him a "good leader".

[Range_This11]

"Good" and "effective" are probably being confused in this case.

[tml]

"Good" and "effective" are probably being confused in this case.

 

Aren't the two a part of the same package though? You can have the trains run on time and money flowing into the country, but if you're hanging people left and right and pocketing all that money, how effective are you really?