RuneScape: Old and New

[Sy_Accursed]

Why do people assume that playing for efficiency is not playing for fun? It is a different kind of fun that maybe you don't enjoy. I have a lot of fun trying to figure out and achieve high efficiency.

 

It's not efficiency that isn't fun. It's the mindless grinding and repetition associated with it. Problems arise when fun, inefficient activities become dead content because people consider them a waste of time.

 

But to some grinding and repetition IS fun, which is what the entire point was in the first place. Fun is subjective.

Also really most activities, even when not the most efficient, if they are actually fun in spite of it sustain a reasonable audience eg soulwats, pest control, castlewars etc.

The only truly dead content offers "rewards" that do not appeal to any training styles or play styles (eg fashionscape) AND is absolutely no fun to do at all by the vast majorities perception. Great example being Trouble Brewing - the vast majority find it boring and over complicated, it offers very little in the way of rewards and it doesn't offer a good way to gain xp therefore it is dead.

[Alphanos]

[hide]

When Runescape 2 was introduced, Jagex revamped the combat system so that it was possible to both eat and run from an opponent in combat.

 

PKing in Runescape Classic was all about the "three-hit-rule" and "catching". In RSC combat, the player and the enemy engaged in three automated rounds of combat. Food and fleeing were not permitted until the initial three rounds were completed. Players needed to grind out sufficient strength levels to be able to KO their opponent in three hits, and develop sufficient reflexes to be able to "catch" a fleeing opponent.

 

Secondly, they transformed Magic and Ranged from secondary combat skills into primary ones, thus creating the "combat triangle". Finally, and most controversially, they changed the combat level formula. The latter change "screwed over" many, many pure PKing accounts. The wild was deserted as people came to grips with the sudden dominance of Magic at low-mid levels, and later on, Ranged. Finally, PKers accused Jagex of nerfing the requirement for skill as "catching" was no longer effective.

 

Sound familiar?

 

Those of us from the "dark old days" of Runescape Classic could perhaps cut and paste our posts from Tip.it back in 2003 and still have them relevant to this discussion today. Back then, the exact same chorus was heard from the exact same demographic. "Jagex hates pures! Jagex ruined PKing!" they cried, on Tip.it and in-game.

 

In spite of its brief revival in 2006, PvP really wasn't the same as "back then". Jagex, since 2006, forsook the PvP environment for a greater focus on skilling and PvM. For high-level players in Runescape Classic, there was no real option but PvP because of the few boss monsters available. When I returned to the game in 2006 after a hiatus, I found a proliferation of skill pures and high level players not the slightest bit interested in PvP. With the introduction of skills like Runecrafting, Slayer and Hunter, skilling was no longer a means to an end but a very profitable moneymaker. Skilling no longer became a communal need but a subtle competition, in which players were pitted against each other to reach certain targets or profits before others. Skillcapes were both the logical progression and the concrete capstone on this transformation into Skillingscape.[/hide]

. The problem is the community is dead. It is so obsessed with competition and efficiency that playing for fun is laughed at.

I think anyone blaming "efficiency" for community problems has chosen an especially odd scapegoat. Just for starters, you likely won't even hear people talking about such things outside of a few specialized forums, because the vast majority of players don't care a whit for efficiency. This is mostly a guess, of course, because there's almost no way to tell whether other players are playing efficiently; it doesn't affect you in any way.

 

As a personal, stylistic choice, players of both camps also need to recognize that efficient advice versus for-fun advice aren't meant to compete with or insult each other. If someone asks how to get to a particular place a ways out of town, there can easily be two responses. A) Take highway X and you'll get there in 30 minutes, and B) There's a lovely scenic route which lets you pass by a lake-filled valley, taking only 10 minutes longer (40 minutes total). Neither of these are wrong. People taking the highway aren't insulting the valley. If you prefer the scenic route, then just take it; nobody's stopping you.

 

This tangent aside, as someone who dislikes EoC, I've never been interested in PvP. In my personal limited knowledge of PvP, I figure that PvP is actually the one area which will very clearly benefit from EoC over the long run as players adjust.

 

EoC now requires rapid clicking in combat to i.e. rapidly cycle abilities. That, to me, is far more of an irritating grind than anything else. IMO, it's like they changed combat to make it more like agility. It's not harder, but it requires more clicking for no real reason. I'd prefer the previous form without the useless clicks. Yes, they did create Momentum, but it was a last-minute and grudgingly-added addition. Mod Mark in particular feels like Momentum doesn't fit his vision for how RuneScape combat should be, so I'm sure that Jagex will further decrease its effectiveness in the future or further increase the effectiveness of rapid ability combat.

[Estoc]

Why do people assume that playing for efficiency is not playing for fun? It is a different kind of fun that maybe you don't enjoy. I have a lot of fun trying to figure out and achieve high efficiency.

 

It's not efficiency that isn't fun. It's the mindless grinding and repetition associated with it. Problems arise when fun, inefficient activities become dead content because people consider them a waste of time.

People who enjoy raising skills in an mmo are likely to choose Runescape. People who enjoy team capture the flag have many better options to choose from than Runescape's castlewars. It's not that people hate fun, but the one's who stick around a game based on leveling skills are likely to focus on leveling skills. That's not to say that nobody does anything fun in Runescape, on the contrary, advancing their character is what they consider fun.

 

The matter of only using the best training methods is simple. Clicking a yew tree is just as fun as clicking an arctic pine, but the arctic pine will get you to your goals faster. Obviously people cutting yews value their time because they are chopping yews instead of normal trees, but usually they either don't know anything better to cut or are simply unwilling to change. I've been the guy cutting yews, and it wasn't because I thought it was fun, rather I thought it was good xp and money.

[muggiwhplar]

[hide]

When Runescape 2 was introduced, Jagex revamped the combat system so that it was possible to both eat and run from an opponent in combat.

 

PKing in Runescape Classic was all about the "three-hit-rule" and "catching". In RSC combat, the player and the enemy engaged in three automated rounds of combat. Food and fleeing were not permitted until the initial three rounds were completed. Players needed to grind out sufficient strength levels to be able to KO their opponent in three hits, and develop sufficient reflexes to be able to "catch" a fleeing opponent.

 

Secondly, they transformed Magic and Ranged from secondary combat skills into primary ones, thus creating the "combat triangle". Finally, and most controversially, they changed the combat level formula. The latter change "screwed over" many, many pure PKing accounts. The wild was deserted as people came to grips with the sudden dominance of Magic at low-mid levels, and later on, Ranged. Finally, PKers accused Jagex of nerfing the requirement for skill as "catching" was no longer effective.

 

Sound familiar?

 

Those of us from the "dark old days" of Runescape Classic could perhaps cut and paste our posts from Tip.it back in 2003 and still have them relevant to this discussion today. Back then, the exact same chorus was heard from the exact same demographic. "Jagex hates pures! Jagex ruined PKing!" they cried, on Tip.it and in-game.

 

In spite of its brief revival in 2006, PvP really wasn't the same as "back then". Jagex, since 2006, forsook the PvP environment for a greater focus on skilling and PvM. For high-level players in Runescape Classic, there was no real option but PvP because of the few boss monsters available. When I returned to the game in 2006 after a hiatus, I found a proliferation of skill pures and high level players not the slightest bit interested in PvP. With the introduction of skills like Runecrafting, Slayer and Hunter, skilling was no longer a means to an end but a very profitable moneymaker. Skilling no longer became a communal need but a subtle competition, in which players were pitted against each other to reach certain targets or profits before others. Skillcapes were both the logical progression and the concrete capstone on this transformation into Skillingscape.[/hide]

. The problem is the community is dead. It is so obsessed with competition and efficiency that playing for fun is laughed at.

I think anyone blaming "efficiency" for community problems has chosen an especially odd scapegoat. Just for starters, you likely won't even hear people talking about such things outside of a few specialized forums, because the vast majority of players don't care a whit for efficiency. This is mostly a guess, of course, because there's almost no way to tell whether other players are playing efficiently; it doesn't affect you in any way.

 

As a personal, stylistic choice, players of both camps also need to recognize that efficient advice versus for-fun advice aren't meant to compete with or insult each other. If someone asks how to get to a particular place a ways out of town, there can easily be two responses. A) Take highway X and you'll get there in 30 minutes, and B) There's a lovely scenic route which lets you pass by a lake-filled valley, taking only 10 minutes longer (40 minutes total). Neither of these are wrong. People taking the highway aren't insulting the valley. If you prefer the scenic route, then just take it; nobody's stopping you.

 

The problem is, there really aren't many (if any) "scenic" paths in RuneScape. All of your options are just different "highways."

 

Think about it: how many people train a skill for fun, without keeping track of XP or levels or goals? How many people go back to chopping yews after they've got enough money to pay for whatever they want? How many people go back to chopping yews after they get 99 WC? How many people keep training skills even though they've hit 200M XP? Very few, if any. People justify the grind in their mind by convincing themselves that they're being productive or efficient.

 

Off the top of my head, dungeoneering's really the only skill that fits into that category. I've always dungeoneered because it was fun, and the perks of "training" it were just a nice side-effect, rather than the focus itself. That's how all of the skills should be structured, IMO.

[Platinum_Myr]

I have friends who still fish sharks, and have over 40m xp, and no, they don't do it to get xp, just do it to relax.

[muggiwhplar]

And the question is: does that represent most RS players or a small minority? How many people choose to relax by fishing sharks rather than doing something else in RS (or RL)?

 

If only a few people do that, then you're proving my point

[Platinum_Myr]

I'm not proving your point. I'm offering some examples that indicate that there is no one type of player.

 

If you've ever read any articles on Magic The Gathering design, you might have heard of player psychographics. This is a study in why people play the game in certain ways but it can be slightly generalized to fit RS. Bear in mind no person is 100% any one of these psychographics and there is often bleed between them.

 

Some players play to win, as defined by having the best skills or the best armor or gold value or whatever. They want to prove something about themselves. Their goal is to get the best no matter what. These are labeled "spike" in the MtG discussion. Spike wants to prove himself. This type of player is likely to seek the most efficient methods, and seek to have the highest ranks or skills or even real skill level. They might use different aspects of the game to do this, but is also the most easy to design for. This type of player cares the most about the numbers and efficiency. Designing for Spike is easy because you simply design using the numbers as normal.

 

The next player, Johnny, plays to express himself. This type of player plays to show something about himself through character design, or gameplay choices. This type of player likes to solve puzzles in unique and interesting ways. A johnny is the player who is more likely to create alternative builds like a non-combat or only do certain activities or any other arbitrary things. This player wants to express themself through their choices. A johnny is the one who will make a ranger who never uses magic or melee but instead always range even if it's not the most efficient. They are the ones who create alternative styles of build that they know are less good simply to show it can be done.

 

The third type of player is Timmy. Timmy plays to experience something. This type of player is most likely the ones who care least about efficiency or being the best, but rather about the experience. They want to have the experience of being a hero, they love to quest, not as a means to an end but for the experience itself. They would rather do what they want and ignore the efficient methods than to do something they find "unfun" to get a goal. This type of player's mindset is very different.

 

There's two other psychographics that discuss HOW people play versus the ones above discussing WHY people play.

 

Marvin looks at the beauty of design specifically, they care about methods and numbers and goals, and hidden unique catches. They care about the statistics of drops or the way the engine works. They don't care about outfits, or doing certain things because it's what their character would do. They don't care about roleplay. Highly logical and focused heavily on design of the game play elements.

 

Vorthos looks at the entire package and wants to evoke an emotional response. This type of player more likely cares about roleplay and will choose certain game play elements for non-numbers reasons. They might decide to only wear saradomin outfits, or only do training methods that fit into one style of design. They choose armors that look better rather than armors that have the best stats. They choose training monsters who they want to kill for style reasons rather than for XP or drops. They don't want an NPC to drop something that doesn't make sense. They care for the story.

 

These two "feeling" psychographics are independant of the psychographics above which are about WHY you play the game rather than HOW you play.

 

Runescape may cater towards a certain style of gameplay more often. However, generally the players who get on Forums and look up detailed information are spike-marvin oriented and so the other psychographics get under-represented.

 

All of these types of players play runescape, and you will find them. However, I would bet that more spike-ish people play the game, and this type of player is the easiest to design for, because they are after easily measurable values.

 

I would agree that runescape could better work for a broader audience by taking this type of psychographic study into account. I doubt they do it.

 

However, none of these reasons for playing are better or worse. Also, not all game elements are designed for the same type of player, and you can't expect to be pleased by all of them.

 

I also agree that the forum culture which ignores other ways of playing the game could do with dying down a little bit. Though some areas shouldn't, ex: Help and Advice should mainly focus on the best things rather than trying to please every single person who wants to see their "favorite" methods be there. Spike only cares about the best, most efficient etc. It is easy to answer for Spike. Timmy and Johnny are very different and so should need very different types of answers which vary from person to person.

[Halflife308]

I wouldn't call myself a Runescape veteran, but I certainly did spend a large period of my childhood on Runescape back in 2006/2007. For me, it was the best game I ever played. I personally wasn't bothered by the free wildy and trade removals, or the G.E. or HD updates, however the EoC destroyed it for me, I can't play Runescape anymore, and I don't have any interest in private servers, so I'm stuck in the middle.

 

Jagex should re-release 2006 RS. They'd do us all a grand favor, and have my support. I could spend an hour and a half writing exactly why they should re-release, but it's been said a thousand times over already. :)

 

Well, roll on 20th February.

[ACK]

OLD IS IN THE PAST

NEW IS PRESENT AND THE FUTURE

 

Well, id say Jagex should keep old versions of Runescape such as CLASSIC version...

every big move to Runescape they should make backup, atleast one server...

it's hard to move to new version when you are used to previous one.

 

but i hope "level up my X" update make combat system better and more fun?!!!!

[God Of Lego]

To be quite honest. There is no other way to put this. Level up my X does sound gay as [bleep].

[God Of Lego]

An update guys!

http://services.runescape.com/m=news/2007---old-school-runescape-you-vote

 

Looks like we are getting some 07 servers!!

[Ammako]

^ But be prepared to have to pay ~$22 per month for them.

[Kaida23]

MIGHT be getting some RS07 servers. The members still have to vote on it. Considering they set the lowest bar at only 50k people though, it does seem pretty likely. I'm not sure people would be willing to pay $15/month to play a 6 year old version of the game when the current, constantly updated version is only, what, $6 a month?