Not just prostitution, but sex in general. We have a very immature attitude towards anything concerning sex. I agree with you. The best one is how much of medieval and renaissance art depicts naked figures, and how these works are seen as "cultural", but a lad's magazine in 2013 does the same and it's "porn". The only difference is the medium; it's a total contradiction.

Most medieval and renaissance art (and all other artistic eras, really) tend to display the human form with as little emphasis as possible on genitalia (especially female genitalia). There have been works of art that have had an erotic emphasis to them (I'd give examples, but they are NSFW), and they have been shunned and criticized by mainstream art critics. Most of them were usually commisioned by some guy with too much money in his hands.

 

On the other hand, modern "lad mags" use breasts and genitalia as the centrepiece. Even if Manet painted a nude playboy bunny with her legs splayed wide 100 years ago, people would still consider it pornography.

This article provides a pretty damning case against legal prostitution.

 

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1037&context=humtraffdata

Where prostitution is legalized or tolerated, there is a

greater demand for human trafficking victims and nearly

always an increase in the number of women and children

trafficked into commercial sex slavery.

Of the estimated 600,000 to 800,000 people trafficked

across international borders annually, 80 percent of victims

are female, and up to 50 percent are minors. Hundreds of

thousands of these women and children are used in

prostitution each year.

I'm not arguing about a textbook, two people have sex then exchange money. The reason it needs to stay illegal is because how harmful legal prostitution is to the prostitutes.

I'll get to this article later. As you can imagine, my opinion hasn't budged.

This article provides a pretty damning case against legal prostitution.

 

http://digitalcommon...xt=humtraffdata

Where prostitution is legalized or tolerated, there is a

greater demand for human trafficking victims and nearly

always an increase in the number of women and children

trafficked into commercial sex slavery.

Of the estimated 600,000 to 800,000 people trafficked

across international borders annually, 80 percent of victims

are female, and up to 50 percent are minors. Hundreds of

thousands of these women and children are used in

prostitution each year.

I'm not arguing about a textbook, two people have sex then exchange money. The reason it needs to stay illegal is because how harmful legal prostitution is to the prostitutes.

 

There's one problem. It's a statistical analysis. It does not tell us the motives and actions that caused the harm - it merely implies correlation. If we interpret and scrutinize the statistics, we may find that the cause is the fact that it's only legal in certain areas, or it's too open to foreign markets where it would otherwise be illegal. If you never look at incentives and motives, it's pretty easy to argue a case that just isn't true.

I don't care what people do, as long as they keep their shit out of my face. I don't wanna see it, I don't wanna hear about it. Escorts are fine by me, people do their business and I never know about it. If this were to be legalized, you'd end up with whorehouses at every street corner. That breaks the golden "not in my face" rule. No support.

 

Prostitution is legal where I am. The number of brothels within an hour of me are less than 5.

So, on this article you posted, sees_all:

 

a) Prostitution is claimed to be inherently harmful and dehumanizing. It's not. That being said, it can be awful. Of course, if there are people who engage in this despite the trauma, it's safe to expect that they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't better than the alternative.

b) "Prostitution and related activities [...] fuel the growth of modern slavery by providing a façade behind which traffickers for sexual exploitation operate."

How does, say, a brothel, provide a façade for human trafficking? How is it in any way practical to pretend human trafficking victims are working out of their own free will instead of doing it secretly? Making prostitution legal might not get rid of human trafficking altogether, but I don't see how it'll provide a façade for it.

"Legalization of prostitution expands the market for commercial sex, opening markets for criminal enterprises and creating a safe haven for criminals who traffic people into prostitution. Organized crime networks do not register with the government, do not pay taxes, and do not protect prostitutes. Legalization simply makes it easier for them to blend in with a purportedly regulated sex sector and makes it more difficult for prosecutors to identify and punish those who are trafficking people."

Well that explains it. If you keep sex work regulated and give people an incentive to keep the market underground, people will engage in human trafficking. But traffickers won't attempt to "blend in" with the legal sector, claiming their victims are there on their own free will. Too risky when they can stay in the dark.

 

"The vast majority of women in prostitution don’t want to be there. Few seek it out or choose it, and most are desperate to leave it. A 2003 study first published in the

scientific Journal of Trauma Practice found that 89 percent of women in prostitution want to escape. [1]"

The source they quote took data from nine countries: Zambia, Germany, Colombia, South Africa, Turkey, Canada, Mexico, Thailand, and the United States. Of those, only two have legalized prostitution and only one has legalized it in practice, namely Germany. Turkey doesn't issue prostitution permits anymore, and has demolished brothels on court order as well. As such it should come as no surprise that most of them want to leave it, since, without the protection of a legitimate business, sex workers get raped and beaten on a regular basis, both by clients and pimps.

Further. the source claim these women have no other option for survival--otherwise they'd already be earning money otherwise. Of course, if they're branded as criminals, it doesn't help them find jobs.

 

"Few activities are as brutal and damaging to people as prostitution. Field research in nine countries concluded that 60-75 percent of women in prostitution were raped, 70-95 percent were physically assaulted, and 68 percent met the criteria for post traumatic stress disorder in the same range as treatment-seeking combat veterans [2] and victims of state organized torture. [3]"

Again, you're not going to be able to get an idea of how damaging legal prostitution is if you look at illegal prostitution. Same study as before. This study also claims prostitution is a form of economic violence in and of itself. Sure, but only if you're going to say any trade is economic violence.

 

The article makes a mention of STIs. I think we've been through this enough, but if anyone wants to bring it up again, go ahead.

a) Prostitution is claimed to be inherently harmful and dehumanizing. It's not. That being said, it can be awful. Of course, if there are people who engage in this despite the trauma, it's safe to expect that they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't better than the alternative.

That doesn't account for organized crime where prostitutes that want to leave can't due to the threat of violence. Organized crime doesn't go away after legalization.

 

 

The source they quote took data from nine countries: Zambia, Germany, Colombia, South Africa, Turkey, Canada, Mexico, Thailand, and the United States. Of those, only two have legalized prostitution and only one has legalized it in practice, namely Germany. Turkey doesn't issue prostitution permits anymore, and has demolished brothels on court order as well. As such it should come as no surprise that most of them want to leave it, since, without the protection of a legitimate business, sex workers get raped and beaten on a regular basis, both by clients and pimps.

Assuming you took the Turkey thing from the Wikipedia page - that was in 2010 and only applies to two cities. The article you're arguing against was written in 2003. Compare apples to apples.

 

There is also the case were a country changes laws on prostitution (legalizing it or prosecuting it):

To fight human trafficking and promote equality for

women, Sweden has aggressively prosecuted customers,

pimps, and brothel owners since 1999. As a result, two

years after the new policy, there was a 50 percent decrease

in women prostituting and a 75 percent decrease in men

buying sex. Trafficking for the purposes of sexual

exploitation decreased as well.6 In contrast, where

prostitution has been legalized or tolerated, there is an

increase in the demand for sex slaves7 and the number

of victimized foreign women—many likely victims of

human trafficking.8

Pimping and prostitution aren't the same thing. Let's separate the two concepts by saying "pimping" implies there is an abusive pimp involved, the girls are there against their wishes, and the conditions are run of the mill seedy. Let's then define prostitution as a much more voluntary life style involving a brothel (imagine a frat house, but with prostitutes). These girls would be there on their own whim living life the way they see fit. Legally.

a) Prostitution is claimed to be inherently harmful and dehumanizing. It's not. That being said, it can be awful. Of course, if there are people who engage in this despite the trauma, it's safe to expect that they wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't better than the alternative.

That doesn't account for organized crime where prostitutes that want to leave can't due to the threat of violence. Organized crime doesn't go away after legalization.

But it doesn't get worse. Just because prostitution is legal, doesn't mean rape and pimping as defined by Rpg are. The only ways it could get worse after a legalization of prostitution is if it were to pose as legitimate business, which seems unlikely to me. Legalization would also probably cause prices to decrease in the legal sector, because the risk and costs involved with running an illegal business would be cut out. This would make legitimate business more attractive both supply and demand-side.

 

The source they quote took data from nine countries: Zambia, Germany, Colombia, South Africa, Turkey, Canada, Mexico, Thailand, and the United States. Of those, only two have legalized prostitution and only one has legalized it in practice, namely Germany. Turkey doesn't issue prostitution permits anymore, and has demolished brothels on court order as well. As such it should come as no surprise that most of them want to leave it, since, without the protection of a legitimate business, sex workers get raped and beaten on a regular basis, both by clients and pimps.

Assuming you took the Turkey thing from the Wikipedia page - that was in 2010 and only applies to two cities. The article you're arguing against was written in 2003. Compare apples to apples.

My bad. In any case, all I have is a bunch of mixed data. Why do these women have no other option for survival? Is it because they're addicted to crack or heroin? Is it because they're criminals? Is it because no one else will employ them at the going wage? Is it because they're being forced to by a pimp?

 

There is also the case were a country changes laws on prostitution (legalizing it or prosecuting it):

To fight human trafficking and promote equality for women, Sweden has aggressively prosecuted customers, pimps, and brothel owners since 1999. As a result, two years after the new policy, there was a 50 percent decrease in women prostituting and a 75 percent decrease in men buying sex. Trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation decreased as well.6 In contrast, where prostitution has been legalized or tolerated, there is an increase in the demand for sex slaves7 and the number of victimized foreign women—many likely victims of human trafficking.8

Source #7 is a book I can't get my hands on, so I have a hard time believing the claim, mostly because I don't know what "legalized or tolerated" means.

An example of people who prostitute for survival are the underage prostitutes who are living on the street. Minors in this situation who for whatever reason do not want to talk to the authorities (generally because of the situation they would be placed into if they do) have very few options. Anyone who could help them is legally obligated to report to child services, which is just as good as waling into a police station. They also can't beg on the streets, because someone would phone the police or child services within minutes and they'd be picked up.

 

Prostitution is a means for someone in this situation to make money without immediately getting picked up by the police.

 

And my source for this is a man who spent quite a bit of time homeless himself, in the city I live in, and now spends his time helping others get off the street and running a homeless shelter.

I don't care what people do, as long as they keep their shit out of my face. I don't wanna see it, I don't wanna hear about it. Escorts are fine by me, people do their business and I never know about it. If this were to be legalized, you'd end up with whorehouses at every street corner. That breaks the golden "not in my face" rule. No support.

 

I'd say this is why Escorting is never frowned upon (or not nearly as much as prostitution) and why officials never get involved into it. GENERALLY, it's clean, discreet, the people who do work in it set the rules and take is as a profession and basically say "I'm not making you pay for my services or begging, they're simply there if you want the company"

An example of people who prostitute for survival are the underage prostitutes who are living on the street. Minors in this situation who for whatever reason do not want to talk to the authorities (generally because of the situation they would be placed into if they do) have very few options. Anyone who could help them is legally obligated to report to child services, which is just as good as waling into a police station. They also can't beg on the streets, because someone would phone the police or child services within minutes and they'd be picked up.

 

Prostitution is a means for someone in this situation to make money without immediately getting picked up by the police.

 

And my source for this is a man who spent quite a bit of time homeless himself, in the city I live in, and now spends his time helping others get off the street and running a homeless shelter.

What can be done about it? This isn't what I'm after, and should be treated distinctly from adult prostitution.

An example of people who prostitute for survival are the underage prostitutes who are living on the street. Minors in this situation who for whatever reason do not want to talk to the authorities (generally because of the situation they would be placed into if they do) have very few options. Anyone who could help them is legally obligated to report to child services, which is just as good as waling into a police station. They also can't beg on the streets, because someone would phone the police or child services within minutes and they'd be picked up.

 

Prostitution is a means for someone in this situation to make money without immediately getting picked up by the police.

 

And my source for this is a man who spent quite a bit of time homeless himself, in the city I live in, and now spends his time helping others get off the street and running a homeless shelter.

What can be done about it? This isn't what I'm after, and should be treated distinctly from adult prostitution.

 

Fix the foster care system (although that's no easy task)

The foster care system isn't solely to blame, but that would be a good start.

Pimping and prostitution aren't the same thing.

One follows the other. And while you might want to argue a theoretical example of "two people agree upon a service and a price and exchange then part ways..."

Doesn't happen like that in real life, and the ugly reality is why it's still illegal

 

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2012/12/Legalised-prostitution-increases-human-trafficking.aspx

The article’s authors also looked in more detail at Sweden, Germany and Denmark, which changed their prostitution laws during the past 13 years. Sweden prohibited it in 1999, while Germany further legalised it by allowing third-party involvement in 2002. Denmark decriminalised it in 1999 so that self-employed prostitution is legal, but brothel operation is still forbidden.

Germany showed a sharp increase in reports of human trafficking upon fully legalising prostitution in 2002. The number of human trafficking victims in 2004 in Denmark, where it is decriminalised, was more than four times that of Sweden, where it is illegal, although the population size of Sweden is about 40 per cent larger.

This is completely anecdotal, but a lot of the time you hear that the reason these girls go into prostitution is because they live in abusive households. If they knew they had a safe place to go, they might not feel the need to prostitute themselves. There is also the issue of those teens who get hooked on hard drugs, and providing more free rehab facilities could help with that. Unfortunately I don't think it's something you could ever really completely stop.

Pimping and prostitution aren't the same thing.

One follows the other. And while you might want to argue a theoretical example of "two people agree upon a service and a price and exchange then part ways..."

Doesn't happen like that in real life, and the ugly reality is why it's still illegal

 

http://www2.lse.ac.u...rafficking.aspx

The article’s authors also looked in more detail at Sweden, Germany and Denmark, which changed their prostitution laws during the past 13 years. Sweden prohibited it in 1999, while Germany further legalised it by allowing third-party involvement in 2002. Denmark decriminalised it in 1999 so that self-employed prostitution is legal, but brothel operation is still forbidden.

Germany showed a sharp increase in reports of human trafficking upon fully legalising prostitution in 2002. The number of human trafficking victims in 2004 in Denmark, where it is decriminalised, was more than four times that of Sweden, where it is illegal, although the population size of Sweden is about 40 per cent larger.

 

A very valid point. My optimistic response being the ability to gain the attention of human trafficking cartels and then police it America style. I also think America would have a different take on this than Europe. Europe has deep connections within itself due to its high proximity of neighboring countries with totally different laws and ethics (and how they enforce them). Trafficking is much easier in the European area (especially in the further west and south ends) than it would be in America. Of course this would then tangent to reforms in immigration...

The paper in question is here. I'll read it tomorrow.

I agree that underage prostitution is a distinct issue in and of itself because of the largely unique circumstances that drive it. That said, if you take the core issue which is a lack of (perceived) support system, you'll find adults to whom it applies as well. Take a chronic drug abuser. Perhaps they have no family, or their family has decided they no longer want to fund the drug habbit. They can't get social assistance because again, they keep spending the money on drugs, and they can't afford rehab (and/or don't want to go). Prostitution is a great job for junkies, being that job where people with very serious issues can turn to without the disproving eyes of society and the law starring down at them.

 

Prostitution seems to be something that at least partially is driven by the failings of child services and social services (for an added bonus, read this report by Sen. Nancy Schafer on DCFS in 2007, especially the two stories at the very end, and tell me you don't think...well, I'm not even sure you can call them people).

 

When your trying to keep a roof over your head, or in more extreme cases, a roof over your child's head, you'll do just about anything, including selling your own body. Having these people be afraid of every arm of the law doesn't help. Getting arrested could mean the difference between having a roof over your head and not having enough to both eat and pay rent. If DCFS catches you, your child will disappear into the foster system forever. By making these people criminals (or just bigger criminals), we force them into a world where they are beyond help, and I just don't think that's right. These are the people society has failed.

 

Oh, and I have an extremely hard time believing any escort is not just a high end prostitute. Your paying for a presentable prostitute you can take to parties. It's still a brothel service, just off the books.