Sex work, sex trafficking, and the law

[Omar]

It's been a long time since there has been debate around these parts, so here's something worth posting about. Should people be allowed to buy and sell sexual services? Is it wrong to "sell your body"? Is prostitution "paid rape"? If so, what can the government do about it? How does this relate to the porn industry? Are pornstars the same as, or on the same moral level as prostitutes?

 

To spark some discussion, here is an article from reason.com making the case for legalization.

[jasignhagj]

I see no reason why not, as long as no one is being forced into it. Legalizing prostitution would make it safer for everyone involved too.

[RpgGamer]

Prostitution should be perfectly legal, but regulated.

1) Proper health and sanitary checks, frequent and high standards need to be met

2) Paper trail. No need for anything more than a credit card. No cash acceptable.

3) Age limits for both workers and customers. These will be guidelined by local age of consent.

4) No recording.

[Omar]

1), 2), 4) -- why? If I'm willing to pay less to buy the services of a dodgier prostitute, why shouldn't I be allowed to? I can buy a cheaper guitar knowing that it'll be of lesser quality, and it doesn't bother anyone. So long as there's no fraud -- and healthy workers will advertise the safety of their services loud and clear -- I don't see the problem. Also, why can't I pay cash? Why can't I record if the prostitute is okay with it?

[Tim]

with the recording one, it's more to do with possible privatization of the film. aka selling it to porn industries.

 

Cash, imo should be allowed. If I can pay for good with cash and credit card, one should be able to pay sexual goods via cash also.

 

health/safety checks are a MUST. people who DO do brothels (legally) are required to do health checks, and those who do private escorting (which is more-or-less a loop hole in prostitution) take it serious and get health checks and always use protection. Don't ask how much I know about this because ...well... you don't want to know.

 

As for age limits, that's a no brainer. If you need to be 18+ to work in pornographic industry, then prostitution usually works the same way. (icl' escorts)

 

Big difference though Omar, is with a damaged Guitar, it's not going to suddenly infect you with a STD.

 

And then ALL THIS gets thrown out the window when you step into Amsterdam.

[TTanT]

^3 is because the entire point of legalizing it is to reduce the spread of STD's.

 

Just because you're willing to risk getting some whack disease doesn't mean the rest of us want to aid a system that would only help them spread.

Buying a cheap guitar will at worst annoy your friends with shitty tunes. Getting an STD (and then probably spreading it) can really screw people over.

 

4 is to prevent (or at least minimize) blackmail. I don't get 2, though.

[Alg]

4 is to prevent (or at least minimize) blackmail. I don't get 2, though.

I'm assuming he wants there to be clear records so that these laws can actually be enforced.

[muggiwhplar]

Prostitution should be legal.

 

What are the moral arguments against porn/prostitution? Unless that would be getting off-topic.

[RpgGamer]

All of you are right about 4. No need to tread on the ever innovative porn industry. We have 3D TVs because of them. Blackmailing can't be good either, and some clients may want to keep their activity discreet.

 

2 is to help enforce age limit, and discourage seedy dealings. Surely a back alley deal will occur, but #2 discourages it. Let's be honest, no matter what the law says someone somewhere is going to break it on a consistent basis. Cash is too fluid, with fake IDs available, it could lead to issues.

[Tim]

Just because you're willing to risk getting some whack disease doesn't mean the rest of us want to aid a system that would only help them spread.

Buying a cheap guitar will at worst annoy your friends with shitty tunes. Getting an STD (and then probably spreading it) can really screw people over.

 

Dunno if that was aimed at me, but that's what I was explaining.

[Omar]

Here's Milton Friedman summing up my point of view on health regulations indirectly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD0dmRJ0oWg

 

Are there regulations that stop online commerce from operating unless it's secure as far as identity theft goes? I don't think so. Yet many retailers choose to advertise that the connection is secure.

[Edit] The morality of prostitution is up for debate. Proceed.

[jasignhagj]

Prostitution should be perfectly legal, but regulated.

1) Proper health and sanitary checks, frequent and high standards need to be met

2) Paper trail. No need for anything more than a credit card. No cash acceptable.

3) Age limits for both workers and customers. These will be guidelined by local age of consent.

4) No recording.

 

I don't see the need for cc only. There are perfectly reasonable reasons for people to not want the local brothel showing up on their statement.

[Alg]

2 is to help enforce age limit, and discourage seedy dealings. Surely a back alley deal will occur, but #2 discourages it. Let's be honest, no matter what the law says someone somewhere is going to break it on a consistent basis. Cash is too fluid, with fake IDs available, it could lead to issues.

I'm actually not sure if it will discourage it at all, for the reasons that Omar listed.

 

Unfortunately, that's probably also where all of the moral issues will happen, including pleasant topics such as as sex slavery and the like. Can't really work on the assumption that everyone cares about the effects of their actions (If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion).

 

I'm guessing it depends on whether society values the life of a prostitute enough to put these changes through, and as it is I don't think that's the case.

[Omar]

As far as recording goes: same deal. If you're a sex worker and someone asks if they can record, you can: a) refuse b) accept and ask for a higher price. Obviously, you do this knowing full well that it might be leaked. You can keep track of the client (you may require a cc for this) and sue them if they infringe upon the property rights of the video, although I must admit finding out would be difficult. You may also set a premium high enough that you're okay with the video being leaked. If none of those options work for you, don't allow recording in your business.

[Bxpprod]

1), 2), 4) -- why? If I'm willing to pay less to buy the services of a dodgier prostitute, why shouldn't I be allowed to? I can buy a cheaper guitar knowing that it'll be of lesser quality, and it doesn't bother anyone. So long as there's no fraud -- and healthy workers will advertise the safety of their services loud and clear -- I don't see the problem. Also, why can't I pay cash? Why can't I record if the prostitute is okay with it?

 

Safety for workers, rather than the client.

[Omar]

Same story. Not sure how real-life insurance works, but there's no sense in stopping an insurance company from charging someone in poor health more than your average Joe. Sex workers can require tests if they so desire.

[Tim]

Cash is too fluid, with fake IDs available, it could lead to issues.

 

As a person who worked in a Alcohol job, you'll get a fake ID no matter what. these day's they're getting more smarter when making them, and Debit cards (unless checked by the police) can't be used to track a users age due to privacy agreements.

 

As it stands, if I wanted, at the cost of about ~$80, I could reforge my entire documents myself, obtain a new name/age on a debit card, and get a photo/age ID card. Obviously I couldn't drive with it, but the point is that in these industries you can't ALWAYS prevent underages getting in.

 

THEN there's cases of police being arsed to check underages who do manage to get through because the age of consent is usually 16 so they'd just think "meh its sex", opposed to booze/smokes which are aimed +18/+21 for health reasons.

[nine naked men]

I don't know if it can be as simple as saying 'yeah it's legal'. In an ideal world if a man or woman has made a deliberate choice to become a prostitute without coercion of any sort yeah it should be a respected career decision with all the necessary health regulations and junk.

 

But as it stands now I believe a great deal of prostitution is coercive, one way or another. And that would need to be dealt with before or alongside a widespread legalization of prostitution.

[Ginger_Warrior]

In terms of legislation, you would have to be very careful to ensure that the transition to legality isn't hijacked by people wishing to exploit or abuse the new legal status, especially in regards to under-aged workers. If my local shop had offered me a job at 15, and given me good breaks and decent cash for it, no one would really have batted an eyelid. With prostitution, you're talking statutory rape, which isn't the same minor inconvenience.

 

You would also have to work out a way of ensuring that prostitutes receive the same working rights as everyone else and create a means of dispute resolution where these rights aren't respected. This would have to follow a very complex and drawn out process of consultation. You would then also have to form a way of regulating against any unscrupulous practices used by some employers.

 

We've not even begun to talk about political repercussions. What sane politician would want to go toe-to-toe with NIMBYs on prostitution and its link to street drugs? Even very liberal politicians would be hanged, drawn and quartered in the polls.

 

When you consider how much time, effort, money and political sacrifice would be spent for a legislature to enact the decriminalisation of prostitution, wouldn't it be far more pragmatic to focus on schemes that get prostitutes off the game? I know some like to hang on to this romantic notion that some prostitutes like being prostitutes, similar to how some pornstars like being pornstars, and that's true enough for a very select few, but isn't it stark reality that most people are forced into the easiest black market going through financial difficulty and poverty, and not a genuine desire to sell their bodies to men for sex?

 

The common argument seems to be that legalisation would make the work safer for prostitutes. I'd think they'd be far more thankful if you resolved the economic and social factors which lead to them being prostitutes in the first place.

[Omar]

No one is coerced by circumstances. That doesn't mean anything. Coercion is the initiation of force to bend someone to your will. Circumstances don't use force or will. It's like saying hurricane Katrina coerced people into doing X. It didn't. Katrina isn't a person, it doesn't have a will, and it isn't moral. You can't be forced to work by anyone else than humans.

[Alg]

No one is coerced by circumstances. That doesn't mean anything. Coercion is the initiation of force to bend someone to your will. Circumstances don't use force or will. It's like saying hurricane Katrina coerced people into doing X. It didn't. Katrina isn't a person, it doesn't have a will, and it isn't moral. You can't be forced to work by anyone else than humans.

The circumstances can, however, limit your options so that the only/best option is to work for that person.

[nine naked men]

No one is coerced by circumstances. That doesn't mean anything. Coercion is the initiation of force to bend someone to your will. Circumstances don't use force or will. It's like saying hurricane Katrina coerced people into doing X. It didn't. Katrina isn't a person, it doesn't have a will, and it isn't moral. You can't be forced to work by anyone else than humans.

 

Call it what you want but it's still an issue.

[Giordano]

The common argument seems to be that legalisation would make the work safer for prostitutes. I'd think they'd be far more thankful if you resolved the economic and social factors which lead to them being prostitutes in the first place.

Thank you, someone who gets it.

[Assume Nothing]

EDIT - upon reflection, not a great discussion.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Assume Nothing

[Omar]

No one is coerced by circumstances. That doesn't mean anything. Coercion is the initiation of force to bend someone to your will. Circumstances don't use force or will. It's like saying hurricane Katrina coerced people into doing X. It didn't. Katrina isn't a person, it doesn't have a will, and it isn't moral. You can't be forced to work by anyone else than humans.

The circumstances can, however, limit your options so that the only/best option is to work for that person.

Yes. That's the same thing pushing everyone else to do things they don't necessarily like in exchange for pay.

@Lang: It's not the same issue though. Coercion implies the initiator of force is responsible. In this case, either the prostitute is responsible, or no one is.