Introduce Rares an unfair Advantage?

[Minoture]

I don't see how this is an unfair advantage, ANYONE CAN BUY RARES!!!

 

It's like investing in the stock market with a definate raise. It's just like merchanting on a huge scale!

 

 

 

There is nothing unfair about rares, I don't have any, but I don't see how anything is unfair.

[Systemless]

I don't see how this is an unfair advantage, ANYONE CAN BUY RARES!!!

 

 

 

Yes you can buy it. But buying it today and selling it tomorrow doesn't make any difference. That's what anyone can do. But buying today and selling after one year, or buying one year ago and selling now: This can do only very few. You don't need to play more than anyone else and still you got a huge advantage. An advantage that isn't available to all, making it an unfair advantage.

 

 

 

It's like investing in the stock market with a definate raise.

 

No it is not. Stock market is based on the fact that with investing cash "now" you can increase your productivity. That means you can pay back the person that borrowed you the cash part of what you produce additionaly. Rares are more like collectables in the real world. With the difference that there is an almost unlimited amount of different types of discontinued items in real world, and that the collectables play only a minor role within the real world market.

 

 

 

And I would not be that unhappy with the rares situation if the raising would be a factor 1.5 per year. But its more like a factor 10 per year. A thing ruther "rare" in real world stock markets.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[wizard_1315]

Yes, I agree with you. Rares are very unfair! I posted a topic about this before, but I was veeeeery flamed. This is the rule: THE PPL WHO OWN RARES THINK THEY'RE NOT UNFAIR, THE PPL WHO DON'T OWN RARES THINK THEY ARE UNFAIR. It's simple...

[Duke_Freedom]

You're exagerating it a bit, rares rise with a factor 5 per year.

 

 

 

So the only thing really lost would be a few items less to merchant with, or have I missed something?

 

 

 

- They are no longer an investement item, so people are no longer rewarded for sparing gp.

 

- The end-game of merchanting (which is the rares market) would be removed.

 

- The interesting fluctuation and price development of rares would be gone.

 

 

 

The whole "unfair" arguement is weak IMO. There are a ton of unfair things in this game, including the fact that people can gain tons more exp / hour these days then a few years ago, the fact that the first 85 slayers literally made billions of their skill while the current 85 slayers "only" make millions and tons of such examples.

 

 

 

The problem is more that my motivation to work for cash is lost due to the rares situation. Why should I work today 10 times as much for the same as one year ago?

 

 

 

I think you overlook a lot of facts while saying this. Furthermore I find it weird why you "loose motivation" just because of the rare situation. If you don't plan to interact with the rares market, it has no influence on you. If you do plan to interact with the rares market, I question your motives. Very few people would buy rares if they wouldn't go up on the long-term anymore.

 

 

 

But there are other things as well: 3 years ago, medium-leveled P2P players couldn't make much more then 100K / hour, this is at least 300 - 400K / hour nowadays. 3 years ago the top players were making 300 - 350K / hour. Nowadays their hourly wages are going at 1 - 1.5mil / hour. F2P players are still making 50-100K / hour, something they also did 3 years ago.

 

 

 

Talking about 'unfairness'?

[Systemless]

Thx for you answer, I appreciate it.

 

 

 

Yes you are right the factor of 10 is a bit off. The top profit you can make with wise longtime investment is around the factor 10 (as a maximum). But the average which you would make by simple longtime investment is less, around 6 or lets say 5. I put this number 10 for simplicity here. But it's my bad it more like 5 then 10 for the discussed setting.

 

 

 

 

- They are no longer an investement item, so people are no longer rewarded for sparing gp.

 

- The end-game of merchanting (which is the rares market) would be removed.

 

- The interesting fluctuation and price development of rares would be gone.

 

 

 

 

I don't see a problem with the first point. Atm I think poeple are too focused on getting and sparing gp. And bascially there is no reason why there should be a reward for sparing gps in runescape. Without the gp-inflation and fixed shop prices setting there would be no reward for it. There could be a reward if you actually could increase your productivity by investing tons of cash. But there is no feature in runescape.

 

 

 

About the second point. There are other items to merchant like chains or barrows. But yes, there are none that valueable. And those you need actually to "merchant" and not to "invest" to make cash.

 

 

 

About the third point. It's maybe an overused word but still: "price manipulation". In real world stocks business (which is not 100% compareable to rares, but still) all going along the line of "insider business" and "price fixing" is highly illegal. Beside this real world markets are rather transparent for a reason (fake trades). In runescape this is legal and has been used too often. It may be an intresting thing to watch. But it has been used too often to the advantage of a few.

 

 

 

The whole "unfair" arguement is weak IMO. There are a ton of unfair things in this game, including the fact that people can gain tons more exp / hour these days then a few years ago, the fact that the first 85 slayers literally made billions of their skill while the current 85 slayers "only" make millions and tons of such examples.

 

Yes I know there are some weak parts. But not the fact that there are other highly unfair features like the first skill toping. Giving the monopol over important items or features into the hand of few is plain stupid. I don't know how this could happen with slayer. Or if it was intended this way. But other unfair features do not make the rares problem fair. Nor do they make it neglectable.

 

 

 

The only real weak point I see atm with the "unfair rares argument" is the question: "Should the reward a player gets be based on the online time he plays the game, or as well on the years he played it and the overall time frame he played it".

 

 

 

I would say that a fair game should aim to reward *only* the online time of a player. That means the reward *has* to be independent of the actual year and month you play it as well as the overall time-frame you play it. Now this is my point of view. And I am not 100% sure that this is the only reasonable. Now if you say that this is not required for a game to be fair, then you can drop all the rest of the "unfair game argument".

 

 

 

Furthermore I find it weird why you "loose motivation" just because of the rare situation. If you don't plan to interact with the rares market, it has no influence on you.

 

That's wrong. That's again (almost) like saying, if you don't plan to interact with the macroing scene, then it has no influence on you. If some gain an advantage which is not open to others it is unfair, and it does influence them. Beside this, the fact that some people got rich with rares has an impact back onto market prices of other items. On the speed some poeple train skills *looks at construction skill*. It does influence me even if I ignore the rares market.

 

 

 

But there are other things as well: 3 years ago, medium-leveled P2P players couldn't make much more then 100K / hour, this is at least 300 - 400K / hour nowadays.

 

If they invested their cash made back then, there work they did back than is valued (3 years = 5 * % * 5 = 125) as 12.5m / hour. Now comparing this to the 400k / hour one can make today I see a large gap. That's the gap where my motivation falls into.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

 

 

 

Edit: Oops within the last 3 years there has been the item dupe. That reduces the factore 125 to about 30 if one was "offline" while the dupe. But it is still 3m / hour versus 400k / hour.

[Duke_Freedom]

About the second point. There are other items to merchant like chains or barrows. But yes, there are none that valueable. And those you need actually to "merchant" and not to "invest" to make cash.

 

 

 

And those markets are much smaller then the rares market is as well. If there were no more rares to merchant, those markets would be saturated of merchants. However your 'solution' may still allow a bit of merchanting in rares to continue on the other side.

 

 

 

About the third point. It's maybe an overused word but still: "price manipulation". In real world stocks business (which is not 100% compareable to rares, but still) all going along the line of "insider business" and "price fixing" is highly illegal. Beside this real world markets are rather transparent for a reason (fake trades). In runescape this is legal and has been used too often.

 

 

 

Price manipulation is in fact against the RuneScape rules, but Jagex just takes too little action on people doing it.

 

 

 

If some gain an advantage which is not open to others it is unfair, and it does influence them.

 

 

 

And again I'm saying that the advantage is in fact open to everyone. :P Only not with results that were made in the history - but I don't really see why people should be able to have the same results that were made in history, even though they didn't even start playing back then.

 

 

 

Beside this, the fact that some people got rich with rares has an impact back onto market prices of other items. On the speed some poeple train skills *looks at construction skill*. It does influence me even if I ignore the rares market.

 

 

 

Rich people would have existed with or without rares. Those some people would have been able to train construction as fast as they did now for the same reason as well.

 

 

 

I believe that materials are also kept down by the people who spare for a rare rather then using the cash on materials, which they may have done if rares didn't exist. So no, I don't think you really notice too much of the rares in the economy as long as you don't want to participate in it.

 

 

 

But it is still 3m / hour versus 400k / hour.

 

 

 

Yes. Keep in mind that that is 3mil is only 7.5 times as large as the 400K figure, and that was reached in time span of 3 years, which translates back to doubling prices each year, quite a bit less then the 10 or 5 doubling figures that were given earlier already ;).

 

 

 

Perhaps the real question is whether "ultimate fairness" is actually our main goal or not. The answer to that question may lie in a totally different discussion (that people are quite divided about), whether RuneScape and similiar mmo's are "games" or "virtual worlds".

[Eldrad_Ulthran]

The notion that a MMORPG can be perfectly balanced is one that is absurd at best.

 

 

 

There is another solution. If the ratio between rares and gp is constant in the game (with respect to player demand) we would have again a fair game. To achieve this we need to integreat the rares into the open system concept of Runescape. Making them no longer rare but still expensive. Adding a shop selling rares a bit above the current market prices would stop the rares from further rising in price once they hit the shop price. From then on players would automatically buy new additional rares from that shop as needed to compete with the increased amount of gp in the game. Current "rares owner" would loose nothing. Almost nothing, the only thing they would loose is the unfair advantage compared to newcomers.

 

 

 

The only reason why rares have any sort of value is because they are no longer obtainable by any other means save for trading. Creating a shop that allows anyone to buy a rare is completely pointless - since rares have no practical use, nobody would bother to buy them. If rares are no longer rare, people will spend their money elsewhere.

 

 

 

I would say that a fair game should aim to reward *only* the online time of a player. That means the reward *has* to be independent of the actual year and month you play it as well as the overall time-frame you play it. Now this is my point of view. And I am not 100% sure that this is the only reasonable. Now if you say that this is not required for a game to be fair, then you can drop all the rest of the "unfair game argument".

 

 

 

Wow. So, you think time spent should determine how well you do in a game? What about skill? Most of runescape is mindless clicking, but if you have some intelligence, you can get much further in the game than someone else who raises levels without any sort of goal in mind. Ah, but you have 99 crafting. Maybe you should spend less time clicking and more time thinking about your posts.

[Systemless]

Price manipulation is in fact against the RuneScape rules, but Jagex just takes too little action on people doing it.

 

As far as I know, price manipulation is only against the forum rules. To be precise only against the discontinued market forum specific rules. Any manipulation actually done inside the game or organized on external communities are legal (I am not saying that they are welcomed).

 

 

 

And again I'm saying that the advantage is in fact open to everyone. Only not with results that were made in the history - but I don't really see why people should be able to have the same results that were made in history, even though they didn't even start playing back then.

 

It's a question of the point of view here. I say that two players (one playing 500 hours over 3 years, the other within half a year) should have the same chances. Atm, they do not have the same chance, and the rares advantage is actually (almost) closed for the second player. The question is wether we want to classify those two ways of playing the game as the same (beeing both play 500 hours) or as different since they play over different time spans.

 

 

 

Yes. Keep in mind that that is 3mil is only 7.5 times as large as the 400K figure, and that was reached in time span of 3 years, which translates back to doubling prices each year, quite a bit less then the 10 or 5 doubling figures that were given earlier already.

 

 

 

Yes but still a factor of 2 is not a minor neglectable factor. And this factor is with all that is to level out already, so its a different factor than what the number 5 has been calculated for. The risk on rares is within it and the faster making cash is already within it. And the number is pretty conservative as well. For f2pers it is a lot worse.

 

 

 

You are right, the real question is not about the rares an the numbers. The real question is wheter we want a fair game or a virtual world. And how we want to define it as fair (see above). I personally see a problem with Runescape, that it becomes less and less attractive for newcomers to start playing. Ok, many newcomers will not notice this in the beginning. But later on they realize that there is no way to achieve some goals any more (rares). That there is no way to compete with older players, even if they play the game more time overall. There are some concepts in other games to take care of this problem (poeple are bound to the world they started playing in, allowing a fresh restart of the game for groups of new players, ...). There could be some solutions as well within Runescape.

 

 

 

 

 

The notion that a MMORPG can be perfectly balanced is one that is absurd at best.

 

But still if we can't achieve a perfectly balanced game, should we not struggle into that direction? If we can't get the perfect solution, we still like to prefer a good over a bad don't we?

 

 

 

 

 

Creating a shop that allows anyone to buy a rare is completely pointless - since rares have no practical use, nobody would bother to buy them.

 

They still have some use even if they are not discontinued. People use them as status symbol, as a way to actually "wear" there pile of cash. And it does not allow "anyone" to buy a rare more than "anyone" can buy one right now.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow. So, you think time spent should determine how well you do in a game? What about skill? Most of runescape is mindless clicking, but if you have some intelligence, you can get much further in the game than someone else who raises levels without any sort of goal in mind.

 

I simplyfied that formulation (not without fearing coments like this one). Of course your intelligence and luck should determine how well you play as well. But one of the basic proportionalities in Runescape is, that reward is linked with the time played. You play two times as long (as a stupid player) you get two times the reward (long term). You play two times as long (as an intelligent player) you get two times the reward. The absolut reward is of course different for the two players.

 

 

 

Ah, but you have 99 crafting. Maybe you should spend less time clicking and more time thinking about your posts.

 

Maybe you should leave others their way of playing, and first think more about your posts yourself.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[WrathMonkey]

I'd just like to put some word in on your matter here. If you haven't noticed, Runescape has been trying to make Runescape as realistic as possible (excluding the magicks and beasts), as if you were really living in some mystical time. Now, if you introduce rare items in the real world, than there is still inflation. Such as with the gas problems. Take away those rare items, and no one has anything valuable.

 

 

 

They also add some fun to the game. Only the richest people have them, so you have to prove you can do it. And after time goes on in the game, you have had more time to make money. And then you can pay much higher price, as you said, because the increase in GPs due to High Alchs and much more, and not enough is being put back into the spending of it. And so what do people do in that stead? Pay a load for an item or two, and then the price slowly raises as more and more try to get it.

 

 

 

So, you're idea is semi-plausible, until I start to wonder; If you plan to remove or decrease the value of rare items, then I would like to add that this is how most of our players want it, because they made it that way. It would mean that players that have put so much time into Runescape, and still have one of these items, should be greatly paid, and this is how Jagex (unintentionally) did it. And if you merchant it (which happens in real life too), then you should earn the profits, if you have the skills and GP to afford one in the first place, and still be able to sell it for more.

 

 

 

~Wrath Monkey

[Systemless]

If you haven't noticed, Runescape has been trying to make Runescape as realistic as possible (excluding the magicks and beasts), as if you were really living in some mystical time.

 

 

 

Well they tried, but they made a few severe mistakes in the first releases. There is hardly any conservation law in Runescape, except for the Rares. The number of rares are maybe the only thing that actually is more or less constant (slightly less with time I know). The rest of Runescape is designed as *open* system. Gps and items flow in and out of Runescape as poeple force them to. Now a world without conservation laws is not impossible to imagine. But it can be difficult to balance.

 

 

 

Take away those rare items, and no one has anything valuable.

 

If we would just delete all rares today (note: this is NOT what I suggest), nothing valueable would be lost. The "value" in gp taken out of Runescape by deleting the rare items would hardly be a few mils. But the distribution of the gp (or the right to get them) would be massivly redistributed among players, which is a very bad thing. And that is why I would NOT suggest to delete all rares.

 

 

 

They also add some fun to the game. Only the richest people have them, so you have to prove you can do it.

 

With a shop (selling them at prices of 100m each and up) this would still remain the same.

 

 

 

So, you're idea is semi-plausible, until I start to wonder; If you plan to remove or decrease the value of rare items, ...

 

 

I do NOT plan do remove or decrease the value of rare items. All I suggest is to stop them from further raising. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[Eldrad_Ulthran]

They still have some use even if they are not discontinued. People use them as status symbol, as a way to actually "wear" there pile of cash. And it does not allow "anyone" to buy a rare more than "anyone" can buy one right now.

 

 

 

Why are rares status symbols? Possibly because they can't be obtained through conventional means, no?

 

 

 

It's a question of the point of view here. I say that two players (one playing 500 hours over 3 years, the other within half a year) should have the same chances. Atm, they do not have the same chance, and the rares advantage is actually (almost) closed for the second player. The question is wether we want to classify those two ways of playing the game as the same (beeing both play 500 hours) or as different since they play over different time spans.

 

 

 

So, you're saying that someone who has just started should have the same benefits as someone who stuck around from the beginning? The early bird is the one who catches the worm, just like the investor who bought stocks in a company's infancy is the one who gets rich. It is impossible to make a game the same for two people that have joined at different times. MMO's are constantly changing - by your logic, Jagex should bring charging / other unrelated bugs back so that newbies can have a chance at them. If Runescape never were to change, how many people would play it? The fact that Jagex has made so many mistakes is what keeps it interesting.

[Systemless]

Why are rares status symbols? Possibly because they can't be obtained through conventional means, no?

 

No, not because they can not be obtained anymore. Because they are valued as a lot of cash. How does it come otherwise that a dragon chain is a status symbol as well, without beeing discontinued. It is because d chains are still very valueable. Ok they are not that big of a status symbol since they are "only" 22m, which is nothing to current rares, but they still are and have been for a long time a status symbol. And since the suggested shop would not devalue the rares, they could still be a status symbol.

 

 

 

So, you're saying that someone who has just started should have the same benefits as someone who stuck around from the beginning?

 

If they played the same amount of time (in hours) they should have about the same rewards (of course only if they have the same intelligency and all). The one that started earlier would still have the advantage that it is a lot easier to play more over a longer time span.

 

 

 

The early bird is the one who catches the worm, just like the investor who bought stocks in a company's infancy is the one who gets rich.

 

First: Real world is unfair in many ways, no need to make the game unfair as well. Second: Stock markets are different in many aspects. The main difference is that the increase in value is "financed" with an increased productivity obtained from the investment. Runescape increase of value is financed by the inflation versus fixed shop prices mechanism. Third: The risks you take in real world stocks are a lot higher if you want the same "profit" as in runescape.

 

 

 

It is impossible to make a game the same for two people that have joined at different times.

 

 

It is possible to make it at least as close to "the same" as possible. Yes with some bugs that have been added to the game - I still don't have a clue how Jagex could miss the charging thing for years - this can't be undone.

 

 

 

MMO's are constantly changing - If Runescape never were to change, how many people would play it? The fact that Jagex has made so many mistakes is what keeps it interesting.

 

There can be some changes while preserving more or less the difficulty of the game. That is what Jagex tries usually. Sometimes they are not that sucessfull. At times they need to nerf some xp when they calculated it wrong in the first place. Why not try to make it the same with the rares?

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[Duke_Freedom]

I personally see a problem with Runescape, that it becomes less and less attractive for newcomers to start playing. Ok, many newcomers will not notice this in the beginning. But later on they realize that there is no way to achieve some goals any more (rares).

 

 

 

Well I just don't agree this game becomes less attractive solely because newcomers will have to spent more effort if they want a rare. I personally just don't think any arguement based on "but they won't be able / have a tough time to participate in the rares market" is good. Noone forces you to get into the rares market.

 

 

 

There are some concepts in other games to take care of this problem (poeple are bound to the world they started playing in, allowing a fresh restart of the game for groups of new players, ...). There could be some solutions as well within Runescape.

 

 

 

Yes, that's the most used concept actually and it does seem a lot fairer then RuneScape's system. Again the question arises whether ultimate fairness is what we are seeking though... Keep in mind that RuneScape's system, effectively links 200K players together in one economy at peak times, while these other games usually tend to only allow only 3K players or so on one "world".

 

 

 

If we would just delete all rares today (note: this is NOT what I suggest), nothing valueable would be lost. The "value" in gp taken out of Runescape by deleting the rare items would hardly be a few mils.

 

 

 

Err.. Please read this. Removing rares means a removal of several 100's of bils of value.

 

 

 

But the distribution of the gp (or the right to get them) would be massivly redistributed among players, which is a very bad thing. And that is why I would NOT suggest to delete all rares.

 

 

 

Not to imagine how extremely "unfair" (as we haven't used that word a billion times already :P) towards the players who paid 100's of millions for their rares.

 

 

 

No, not because they can not be obtained anymore. Because they are valued as a lot of cash. How does it come otherwise that a dragon chain is a status symbol as well, without beeing discontinued. It is because d chains are still very valueable.

 

 

 

Well I'm going to agree with Eldrad_Ulthran here as I doubt rares will stay as popular as they are if they weren't limited anymore. I think quite a few people buy rares as investement actually - they wouldn't buy them anymore if they weren't going up anymore.

 

 

 

Your counter-argument that dragon chains aren't limited either is not completely applicable here. They don't enter the economy when you want to, they enter it randomly at small probabilities. With a shop that sells rares, there is literally a "limitless" supply at any time. There is a difference in that.

[Systemless]

Well I just don't agree this game becomes less attractive solely because newcomers will have to spent more effort if they want a rare.

 

 

 

Maybe I wasn't precise enough. What I wanted to point at is that fact that most great goals are achieved already. All those goals about beeing the first to achieve a level, xp amount, balancement of levels, hiscores. Most that can be imagined is done already. For most you won't get any reward (full smith, slayer soon as well, ...) anymore, and for most you won't get any respect either. You can do it for your own personal goal. But it is a mmo game, not single player. Then there are other goals like getting a huge pile of gp. You don't even need to get the largest gp pile in runescape. Maybe you just want to come into the same region as your friend that started playing earlier. But you don't have a chance, or you need to work 7 times more then he did for the same. Another goal could be getting a rare. One that your friend got some time ago. Again, you won't make it most probaly. Now there could be other goals, but most of the goals that are linked with having a lot of cash (either direct or indirect) are out of reach for newcomers, even when they pot a lot more effort into it then anyone else. Maybe this is a peronal thing. But to me it is not very motivating - still I play already for some time. Perhaps for some players its even worse (Sorry this is a bit offtopic :?).

 

 

 

About the "beeing bound to one world" concept. Yes it has many drawbacks as well. The number of players in your virtual world is smaller (maybe an advantage as well, when it comes to communitys, avoiding beeing annonymous and scaminng ...). Old worlds tend to get old and empty. Who would want to start playing on these - and with time players leave. I am not sure wether I really would want that in Runescape. There could be other ways to achieve the same effects (but again another topic :lol:).

 

 

 

Err.. Please read this. Removing rares means a removal of several 100's of bils of value.

 

I read it, more than once. Very nice article and very nice graphs. :D

 

 

 

I think you got me wrong there. What I wanted to say is: Deleting the rare items from the runescape database will destroy only a material value of about 20k items * 2 gp each = 40k gp. Ok maybe poeple would have bought them from shops even for 10k each because they look pretty good (useability value). That would make 200m, still nothing. Only for the rarity or the collectable value alone people would hardly pay the current prices. If Jagex would announce that the rares would be untradeable tomorrow, the price would crash completely, lets say to 100k each average. That makes a value of 2bil for all rare items. This is still nothing, compared to a total value (or deposit) of maybe ~500bil gp as you estimated. Now we can discuss wheter to take the material price or the material + useability + rarity value. But most of what people pay for rares, is what they expect to get back once they sell it. So it is more like a banknote in real life. By destroing all bank notes of a real currency (at least one that is backed up with gold), no value is destroyed (beside the paper value). It's just the distribution of the wealth amoung people that would get messed up, but no value destroyed. And this is the same with rares. Hardly any gp would be lost. You could still buy nearly the same amounts of runes with all ingame value (gp and items after alching), or the same amount of dragon longs, after deleting the rare items. I hope you see what I mean now (I have a bit a tough time with the English language at times, so sorry for writing it that complicated).

 

 

 

Not to imagine how extremely "unfair" (as we haven't used that word a billion times already :P) towards the players who paid 100's of millions for their rares.

Yes the gp that palyers payed to others for a rare (hoping they could get them back one day) would just remain with the current owner, without beeing reclaimed. And that would be pretty ... well can't write the word anymore. :P

 

 

 

 

 

Well I'm going to agree with Eldrad_Ulthran here as I doubt rares will stay as popular as they are if they weren't limited anymore. I think quite a few people buy rares as investement actually - they wouldn't buy them anymore if they weren't going up anymore.

 

 

 

But what could the market do if there is a shop selling them at 130% of the current price. React with falling prices while only plain stupid people would buy from the shop. Without people buying from the shop the amount of rares remains the same, so why should then prices drop? I guess people would still like them as a way of "wearing all your bank" in terms of worth. Maybe the shop could have an option to buy them back at 80% of the current prices as well. This would be a dedication 100% towards the open economy system. Caould cause additional gps ingame, but if the open system works and has no loopholes (rares) then, it should be no problem.

 

 

 

About dragon chains: Chains enter the game randomly. But controlable, and at user defined rates. If prices rise, more people will visit the kq, increasing the input of new chains. And the supply from the rares shop is not "that" limitless. You still need to make 100m gp before you can go there and buy a rare. The only difference to the chain is, that at the rares shop you got no random factor (which evens out with a big number of players anyway). We could as well make the shop with a random factor. Pay 100k for a chance 1:1000 to get a party hat. Then we have the same situation as with the d chains. You need to do some work to make the 100k or kill the kq and you get a small chance to get the valuable item.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[Duke_Freedom]

What I wanted to point at is that fact that most great goals are achieved already.

 

 

 

I think that's a general problem of these games indeed. It is hard to make any impact on the game or the community. The only real ways are by doing something really special or by excelling in something (which generally takes a lot of time) or being the first to do something (which is pretty much the easiest).

 

 

 

However, imagine we 'limited' the price of rares 1.5 year ago. The price of a blue phat was 18mil back then. Nowadays, there are a ton of people who could afford that. But, the more people owning such an item, the less prestigeful it is. If a blue phat would be buyable for 18mil in a shop it really wouldn't provide much prestige - definately not anything near what it does nowadays or what it did 1.5 year ago when it cost 18mil.

 

 

 

If Jagex would announce that the rares would be untradeable tomorrow, the price would crash completely, lets say to 100k each average.

 

 

 

I think you really underestimate their rarity and how many people would still try to get them before they were made untradable, but yes the prices would crash quite a lot, mainly because people who only use them as investement (like I said - this is a large group as well) will sell.

 

 

 

To address the value loss discussion: it's not true that only 40K or 200mil or 2bil would be removed. Rares have a market value of several 100's of bils. If you remove them, you'll remove a market value of several 100's of bils, nothing more and nothing less.

 

 

 

Your example of banknotes doesn't hold too well, considering very few currencies are backed up by gold these days - and therefore, by destroying bank notes, value is lost. I think a good example may be the stock markets. If the stock markets crash 20%, surely several 1000 billions of value is lost. If you're going to argue that no value would be lost, then why do stock market crashes oftenly lead to economic times of recession or depression? ;)

 

 

 

You could still buy nearly the same amounts of runes with all ingame value (gp and items after alching)

 

 

 

Value is not defined by magical things like "high alch values" nor as the gold that slightly backs up our currency though. Value is defined as what people pay for items, the market price. Therefore, yes several 100's of bils of value are lost when you remove rares.

 

 

 

But what could the market do if there is a shop selling them at 130% of the current price. Without people buying from the shop the amount of rares remains the same, so why should then prices drop?

 

 

 

I ment to say that intially they are likely to crash as investors get their money out of the rares (as rares won't go up anymore). After that, the market prices will eventually stabalize slightly below the shop selling price. All that will probably take a while before the first rare is actually bought from the shop. After that people will slowly continue to buy rares from the shop at a speed that is needed to keep the market price slightly below the shop's selling price.

[Eldrad_Ulthran]

I'm tired of dissecting your posts quote by quote, since you've continued to make the same points over and over. In one ear, and out the other...

 

 

 

But I'll give it another shot. Here goes nothing...

 

 

 

Stock markets are different in many aspects. The main difference is that the increase in value is "financed" with an increased productivity obtained from the investment. Runescape increase of value is financed by the inflation versus fixed shop prices mechanism. Third: The risks you take in real world stocks are a lot higher if you want the same "profit" as in runescape.

 

 

 

Rares used to be a risky proposition. Around the time of the dupe, rares weren't a good idea, but those who bought rares then are very rich now.

 

 

 

It is possible to make it at least as close to "the same" as possible.

 

 

 

No, it isn't. If someone joins runescape in its infancy, they will have to work harder to raise skills and earn money. There will be less money in the game, therefore, raw materials will cost more, and the player will have to spend more time to earn a substantial amount. People would spend weeks, and even months trying to earn full rune in the days of yore. Someone who were to start playing today can earn full rune in a few days of light playing. I won't even start on certs... The point is that Runescape must be updated over time, and some of these updates make the game unbalanced. For the gameplay to remain the same for all users, regardless of join date, Jagex would have to abandon all plans of updating the game.

 

 

 

I think you got me wrong there. What I wanted to say is: Deleting the rare items from the runescape database will destroy only a material value of about 20k items * 2 gp each = 40k gp. Ok maybe poeple would have bought them from shops even for 10k each because they look pretty good (useability value). That would make 200m, still nothing. Only for the rarity or the collectable value alone people would hardly pay the current prices. If Jagex would announce that the rares would be untradeable tomorrow, the price would crash completely, lets say to 100k each average. That makes a value of 2bil for all rare items. This is still nothing, compared to a total value (or deposit) of maybe ~500bil gp as you estimated. Now we can discuss wheter to take the material price or the material + useability + rarity value. But most of what people pay for rares, is what they expect to get back once they sell it. So it is more like a banknote in real life. By destroing all bank notes of a real currency (at least one that is backed up with gold), no value is destroyed (beside the paper value). It's just the distribution of the wealth amoung people that would get messed up, but no value destroyed. And this is the same with rares. Hardly any gp would be lost. You could still buy nearly the same amounts of runes with all ingame value (gp and items after alching), or the same amount of dragon longs, after deleting the rare items. I hope you see what I mean now (I have a bit a tough time with the English language at times, so sorry for writing it that complicated).

 

 

 

Apparently you don't understand the function of rares in the economy. No GP would be lost, you say? If all the rares in the game were deleted, then raw materials would skyrocket, and the game would become completely unbalanced. Wasn't the whole point of this to make the game more balanced?

 

 

 

But what could the market do if there is a shop selling them at 130% of the current price. React with falling prices while only plain stupid people would buy from the shop. Without people buying from the shop the amount of rares remains the same, so why should then prices drop? I guess people would still like them as a way of "wearing all your bank" in terms of worth. Maybe the shop could have an option to buy them back at 80% of the current prices as well. This would be a dedication 100% towards the open economy system. Caould cause additional gps ingame, but if the open system works and has no loopholes (rares) then, it should be no problem.

 

 

 

Prices would drop because rares would no longer be rare. If a price cap was set on rares, then rares would just keep falling in value, instead of stablizing somewhere below the shop price (because rares have no practical use). If this is your idea of an open economy, then I'd hate to see you work at Jagex...

 

 

 

Your dragon chain arguement is also absurd. The dragon chain is a psuedo-rare. It was a failed attempt by Jagex at creating an uber-item. The dragon chain sucks as armour, and it isn't very desireable item aesthetically, so it cannot be compared to rares.

 

 

 

So to go back to your original point - "rares were/are an unfair advantage." This may be true, but out of everything in the RS world, rares are not the worst offenders. Slayer, Runecrafting, the KQ - they all gave people who were around first an opportunity to become extremely rich, for a relatively low amount of time spent. Rares make the economy interesting. To remove them from the game would not only cause many people to quit, it would also destroy the somewhat balanced game that is RuneScape.

[rm2k_champ]

I'd just like to add that there are far too many unfair things to consider rares to be your main concern, autoing, scamming, hacking, friends with cash, playing the game for longer.

 

Rares are often picked on as people can't afford them, it's an unfair advantage to be able to afford them as they have 100% chance of increase over time unless jagex change them.

[Made0f12une]

I'd just like to put some word in on your matter here. If you haven't noticed, Runescape has been trying to make Runescape as realistic as possible (excluding the magicks and beasts), as if you were really living in some mystical time. Now, if you introduce rare items in the real world, than there is still inflation. Such as with the gas problems. Take away those rare items, and no one has anything valuable.

 

 

 

They also add some fun to the game. Only the richest people have them, so you have to prove you can do it. And after time goes on in the game, you have had more time to make money. And then you can pay much higher price, as you said, because the increase in GPs due to High Alchs and much more, and not enough is being put back into the spending of it. And so what do people do in that stead? Pay a load for an item or two, and then the price slowly raises as more and more try to get it.

 

 

 

So, you're idea is semi-plausible, until I start to wonder; If you plan to remove or decrease the value of rare items, then I would like to add that this is how most of our players want it, because they made it that way. It would mean that players that have put so much time into Runescape, and still have one of these items, should be greatly paid, and this is how Jagex (unintentionally) did it. And if you merchant it (which happens in real life too), then you should earn the profits, if you have the skills and GP to afford one in the first place, and still be able to sell it for more.

 

 

 

~Wrath Monkey

 

 

 

Sorry I skipped your extremely long last 2 posts system but I wanted to cover this.

 

 

 

Your saying that you have to be the richest of the rich and the best of the best to own a party hat. Take a look around, i've seen many other rich people out there but the opertunity to get a party hat is very low. ESPECIALLY on f2p. I think you all have a terriable nag at looking how easy things are for the p2pers. OF COURSE IT"S GOING TO BE EASIER! We're paying the 5 dollars arent we?

 

 

 

Now i'd like to ask you. How often do you see a party hat being sold in f2p? I cant say that I have EVER seen this happen.

 

 

 

So if we introduced a shop that sold rares. (Yes, back to the shop idea, I loved it) then everyone could have a fair stab at getting a party hat. Even if it was p2p only and had current party hat prices then with time the chances of getting a party hat on f2p would go up.

 

 

 

Even if you wanted to knock a couple mill off of phat prices to even things out a bit I dont think anyone would complain. As long as you still have to put your blood sweat and tears into getting one I think it's the best damn idea possiable.

 

 

 

I'd just like to add that there are far too many unfair things to consider rares to be your main concern, autoing, scamming, hacking, friends with cash, playing the game for longer.

 

Rares are often picked on as people can't afford them, it's an unfair advantage to be able to afford them as they have 100% chance of increase over time unless jagex change them.

 

 

 

You sir have a very fine point. There may be many many other things out there that arent fair and arent fixed yet. But that doesnt mean we can START fixing things that arent fair. One goood thing leads to another.

 

 

 

and i'd like to tell you.

 

1. Autoing situation seems to currently be under control and is improving

 

2.Scamming is more player based then Jagex fault. If the players dont know any better then to get scammed, whos to blame?

 

3. Hacking is not possiable. I've heard far to many stories about this. If you count keyloggers as hacking well then again, I must say it's the users fault

 

4. What does friends with cash have anything to do with this subject.

 

5. Playing longer with a rare is an unfair advantage. Practicly what this topic is about.

 

 

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

Made0f12une

[WrathMonkey]

Okay, now, you said you want to cap the prices of rare items, how do you plan on doing that? You can't moderate trades.

[Systemless]

However, imagine we 'limited' the price of rares 1.5 year ago. The price of a blue phat was 18mil back then. Nowadays, there are a ton of people who could afford that. But, the more people owning such an item, the less prestigeful it is.

 

 

 

This could be solved easily. Just add more items to the shop the cost more. Add crowns or hats of others styles with prices up to 2bil and a feature to upgrade items (like in the magic training arena shop). This should be enough expensive for some time to satisfy even the richest.

 

 

 

About the "value loss discussion". Maybe the problem lies within the definition of "value". For me a value in the end is something someone would work for, so the value with respect to work. And the value is not lost if it changse just its owner.

 

 

 

First about the bank notes. Yes many currencies are no longer backed up by gold. But there are other guaranties to back them up. And just imagine what would happen if we destroy all banknotes of a currency. What value is destroyed (beside the paper that would need to be reprinted)? All goods, gold, machines, art everything valuable in a country would still exist. So where is the value missing the has been taken out of the system? Ok there would be some chaos without the currency, but that's something different. And that there is no value bound to the existance of a banknote can be seen as well, when countries started to print more and more banknotes. By doing this there hasn't been any value added to the system, it was just redistributed.

 

 

 

If the stock markets crash 20% then this is due to the fact that people believe that they overestimated the value in the past. It's difficult to say wether a value is lost in this situation, depends again on the definition wheter the "someone" is a real person or an abstract objectiv person. There can be many reasons for economic times of recession or depression. You don't need to destroy a value (simple case: burn down some factories) to enter some recession or depression.

 

 

 

So, sorry but I would still say that it is ruther those 2bil or less that get removed instead of the 100bil. But maybe we have just too different views of what a "value" is. And I couldn't find any generaly valid and usefull definition for "value" atm.

 

 

 

 

 

But what could the market do if there is a shop selling them at 130% of the current price. Without people buying from the shop the amount of rares remains the same, so why should then prices drop?

 

 

 

I ment to say that intially they are likely to crash as investors get their money out of the rares (as rares won't go up anymore). After that, the market prices will eventually stabalize slightly below the shop selling price. All that will probably take a while before the first rare is actually bought from the shop. After that people will slowly continue to buy rares from the shop at a speed that is needed to keep the market price slightly below the shop's selling price.

 

 

 

The initial crash can be avoided by setting the shop prices high enough. If we add a shop today selling a blue phat at 400m I am pretty sure nothing would happen. The price would continue to rise for a few weeks or month and the settle around 380-390m or something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

since you've continued to make the same points over and over. In one ear, and out the other...

 

I am sorry if I repeat myself. Most of it is due to different people throing in the same arguments that have been discussed already. Give me convincing arguments and it won't go on ear in and out the other.

 

 

 

It is difficult to keep the difficulty the same over time. And yes Jagex hasn't been always doing very well with it. But that does not mean it is not possible to do. I can imagine a game where the skills and ways to train them are very limited in the begining. Later on more ways to train are added, more places are added. But as long as the best xp per hour remains the same even with new ways of training added, the difficulty remains about the same as well. The problem with Runescape is, that it has originally never been designed to go this far and long. There are many flaws in the original design. Some have been fixed. The fixings have introduced some unfairness. Yes you are right here, for these there has been hardly any way to fix them without beeing unfair. But there are other unfair things, that can be made fair. What I said: "It is possible to make it at least as close to "the same" as possible." You can't say no here. It is always possible to do something as good as possible. It may be far from fair, but still why not going into the direction of making it fairer?

 

 

 

 

 

If all the rares in the game were deleted, then raw materials would skyrocket, and the game would become completely unbalanced. Wasn't the whole point of this to make the game more balanced?

 

Sorry that I need to say it again: I did NOT suggest to delete all rares from the game. And even if we would, I am pretty sure that the raw materials would not skyrocket (just rise a bit maybe). What you get back from the alching of items remains the same. It would not completely unbalance the game, since this is not possible due to open system with fixed shop prices. But to be honest, I don't want to speculate about what would happen in this case. It may or may not, I don't care. It's a completely different scenario.

 

 

 

Prices would drop because rares would no longer be rare.

I personally doubt that they would fall. Again think about the effect of adding a shop selling blue phats 400m each today. Would prices really stop at the current level and start falling. Or would the go up till they are near 400m and the start falling. And if 400m is too low, what would happen in the case of a price of 1bil? But to avoid them falling an option for the shop to buy them back could be added. That way not only the top, but also the bottom value would be caped.

 

 

 

The dragon chain sucks as armour, and it isn't very desireable item aesthetically

Rares "suck" as armour and some of them are not very desireable aesthetically as well. So I would say that they can be compared. But anyway, I don't know which part about the dragon chain argument you would call absurd.

 

 

 

I know that there are other big problems in Runescape. But to me the rares problem, does not look neglectable. And it is one of those problems that still could be fixed, where Slayer and the KQ can't. I didn't say its the biggest problem atm. But it is one, not neglectable and it could be fixed.

 

 

 

How often do you see a party hat being sold in f2p? I cant say that I have EVER seen this happen.

 

I have seen it happen, but many moths ago. One reason may be there price, the other that I get rarely to f2p these days.

 

 

 

@WrathMonkey: Simply by adding a rares shop as described in this thread. You can moderate prices by setting up shops.

 

 

 

Sorry that it got this long again. I hope I didn't repeat myself too much, and thx for your patience while reading and for your responces.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[Duke_Freedom]

In general, the value of something is how much a product or service is worth to someone relative to other things (often measured in money).

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_%28economics%29

 

 

 

Value is not defined as "only the material value" in economics, which seems to be the way you are trying to define it. Value is defined as the market value of an item, how much it costs in terms of money or other products - there is little to argue about regarding that. If you remove an item, you'll remove its value. In the case of rares, the total value is several 100bil's gp.

[EYOWAREYA]

I won't bother going over every single point in this thread, but for the most part I agree with systemless.

 

 

 

I have been playing RS for less than a year and have a decent amount of cash and skills.

 

 

 

The more I play I experience this demotivation Systemless talks about. I have played more than many people from rsc. But it's frustraiting to know that someone that picked up a blue phat could sell it and go easily level the buyable skills and still have extra cash.

 

 

 

I think this shop should be put in, they can even throw in other expensive items like suggest, with perhaps better looks. Maybe a ring that makes your character glow that costs a billion or something. They still do exactly what rares do, show wealth, and they don't become a way to easily gain money.

[shade_bandyt]

i also agree with systemless. the fact that rares exist in runescape and are tradeable is due to gross short-sightedness on jagex's part. they made the mistake of making them tradeable in the first place. party hats and santas and haloween masks were meant to serve the exact same purpose that wooly hats and easter rings serve today: to wear for fun and show that you've been playing for a while. these items back then, like the new holiday items now, should have been made untradable in the first place. then there would be no such thing as a rare market and the unfair advantage of passive investments in the game

 

 

 

however, there is really nothing that can be done to fix this problem barring resetting the entire game from zero. runescape will forever have the problem of rares as long as the game exists. construction was clever, but its effects on the rare market was very short-lived. the game doesnt need money sinks, it needs rares to be removed, and wiping the memory of everybody in the game so that they dont know rares ever existed, maybe with one of those men in black flashy things on the load up screen. but that wont happen

 

 

 

as for unfairness, that is relative. you can only feel like somebody else has an unfair advantage if you are looking at what others are doing and compare yourself to them. a high player might think that low levels have an unfair advantage since they get new levels every 5 minutes. a new player might think that a high player has an unfair advantage because he can make 60k a trip at blue dragons. no matter what perspective you look at it from, it always seems as though the grass on the other side is greener

 

 

 

i have never seen a suggestion or idea that seems to work. party hat npcs or quests, limited trades, phat respawns, expiry dates, none of these suggestions are near feasable. unless somebody really clever comes along, or unless jagex just yanks all the rares and say "haha n00b5 its my game and i can do what i want nyah nyah!", then i just play the game and forget about rares

[Systemless]

About the "value" :

 

 

 

I have read this definition as well, and I wasn't happy with it. It does not give an answer to the central question in which unit it is measured ("other things" is not very specific). The hint that it is often "measured in money" does not really help. To which cases does this "often" apply? Went on reading the definition of money, and currency which didn't help either. And one has always to be carefull with definitions from real world economics and applying them to Runescape economics.

 

 

 

What I want to measure is an absolut magnitude, the absolut loss of value in a given system, when some items are deleted. Now with the wiki definition and taking gp as "other things" I can measure the value of a rare item relativ to a gp. I can do this before the deletion only (after it I don't have any rare item in the system). But from this I don't have a way to calculate the absolut loss of value in the system. The absolut loss would be the total absolut value before the deltetion, minus the one after it. Now an absolut value is a bit a weird thing, so to be more precise it shall be a value measured relative to a (constant) magnitude from outside of the system. But again, I do not really know how to do this.

 

 

 

What I had in mind in the above posts is value in the sense of an absolut value (one relative to a reference from outside the sytem), something like a "material value", where material can be a bit more general and included collectable values and similars. I guess it is wrong to call this just "value". You are right there. And maybe using this material value as argument isn't usefull either, idk.

 

 

 

Another thing is, that I was wrong above in that banknotes or stocks do not compare really to rares. Some of the above said may still be right for banknotes or stocks, but not for rares. Stocks and banotes are made to represent some value. By destroing the representation you don't destroy the value (simplest case is the gold backed currency). Rares are different.

 

 

 

What I still don't see is how you can argument that a value of 100bil gp is lost. This would mean that the total value of all items in the system does depend on the relativ value the players in the system give for certain items. Lets assume we have a system with 20k rares and 2000bil gp. Now if a player values (relativly) one rare as 100mil, you say we have a total value of 4000bil. But if the player would value one rare as 10mil we would have only a total value of 2200bil. This looks a bit strange to me.

 

Furthermore if we reomve the same value from a system we should have about the same value left in the system. So if we have again a (20k rares and 2000bil gp, 1 rare = 100mil gp) system and remove all the gp or all the rares you say we would have the same value left in the system. I personally doubt that people would value the rares still the same after removing all gp and the same holds for the other case as well.

 

 

 

In the end I must say I am really confused :lol:. Maybe someone has a clear view on this problems? Anyway, the distribution of wealth (or value) would be completely messed up after deleting the rares. Howmuch of wealth or value is left doesn't really matter in the end. Deleting rares is NO option.

 

 

 

@shade_bandyt: What do you think would not work with a shop? Of course to level out everything only a reset would work, but that would have many drawbacks as well.

 

 

 

.: Systemless :.

[ib]

Disclaimer: I am a f2p, have been around rs since like summer of 2002 of which a good portion of my xp was gained from rs1 so far, and I own a few rares (no party hat though).

 

 

 

My overall consensus is a no.

 

 

 

the fact that rares exist in runescape and are tradeable is due to gross short-sightedness on jagex's part.

 

 

 

I don't think it was "gross", but perhaps they were a bit short-sighted.

 

 

 

they made the mistake of making them tradeable in the first place.

 

 

 

I disagree. I wear my Santa Hat around when I'm doing stuff that's not combat related. People ask me how much I bought mine for, and I tell them that I got it for free, which is the truth. (Given to me by a friend on christmas of 2002) I believe that this was the true spirit of the drops.

 

 

 

party hats and santas and haloween masks were meant to serve the exact same purpose that wooly hats and easter rings serve today: to wear for fun and show that you've been playing for a while.

 

 

 

People ooh and ahh over me when I'm wearing it. I must admit, that I get a kick out of it.

 

 

 

I have yet to sell the Santa Hat, though I've gotten numerous offers from just wearing the thing. I don't plan on ever selling it either, along with all my other "rares".

 

 

 

Being a f2p, I don't think I can even afford getting a party hat without major gruntwork, which I don't think is worth it.

 

 

 

What's my part in this whole rares business if I'm not even selling them? I would dead pissed if there was a roll back or they were eliminated, as I haven't done any trading of my rares. Or am I part of the problem because I choose to keep my rares and thus making them rarer since they are not on the market?

 

 

 

So why is there a demand for rares? Is it because people really want them to wear? Or because they can just "merchant" them?