Affirmative Action

[ktmcf121]

 

 

 

You still don't realize that the omitted portion of your argument that "affirmative action is wrong, people should only be judged on their qualifications" is that anyone that recieved benefits from affirmative action were unqualified and only got that scholarship or job offer because they were a minority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so you believe that unqualified people should get the same rewards as qualified people just because they are minorities?

[chris1216]

 

 

 

 

You still don't realize that the omitted portion of your argument that "affirmative action is wrong, people should only be judged on their qualifications" is that anyone that recieved benefits from affirmative action were unqualified and only got that scholarship or job offer because they were a minority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so you believe that unqualified people should get the same rewards as qualified people just because they are minorities?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. I don't. Would you like to know why that's not a slam dunk reason for you being correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) You're still being incredibly racist and ignorant because you refuse to admit that you think everyone benefitting from affirmative action is unqualified

 

 

 

2) If anything, your argument boils down to what percentage of people that benefit from affirmative action are unqualified

 

 

 

3) In that boil-down, you are miserably wrong because an overwhelming most of people that benefit from affirmative action are qualified

[chris1216]

What all, and I mean all, of you don't realize is the only reason that affirmative action might be a bad system is because of the following statistic:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An overwhelming majority of those who benefitted from affirmative action were WHITE WOMEN.

[ktmcf121]

 

 

 

 

 

You still don't realize that the omitted portion of your argument that "affirmative action is wrong, people should only be judged on their qualifications" is that anyone that recieved benefits from affirmative action were unqualified and only got that scholarship or job offer because they were a minority.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so you believe that unqualified people should get the same rewards as qualified people just because they are minorities?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. I don't. Would you like to know why that's not a slam dunk reason for you being correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) You're still being incredibly racist and ignorant because you refuse to admit that you think everyone benefitting from affirmative action is unqualified

 

 

 

2) If anything, your argument boils down to what percentage of people that benefit from affirmative action are unqualified

 

 

 

3) In that boil-down, you are miserably wrong because an overwhelming most of people that benefit from affirmative action are qualified

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so if the people benefitting from AA are qualified for other scholarships, why do they need AA-race-based scholarships?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

also, although i did not state it, i am aware that white women are included in AA, and i stand by my opinion.

[chris1216]

Because qualified doesn't always come across in GPA, test scores, and work internships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That applies across the board, not just to minorities.

[ktmcf121]

what's your definition of "qualified" then?

[chris1216]

That the person, in a job setting, can do the job. Unfortunately, due to a structure of privilege and racist hierarchy, they haven't gotten the chance to even show they can do it. That's where affirmative action comes in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a college app setting, that the person can get their degree. Unfortunately, growing up in a setting that many many minorities grow up in, they didn't even get a chance at the requisite test scores and school performance to qualify on paper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you actually start telling me that everyone that benefits from affirmative action failed at their job and failed out of college, or even a real percentage, you can't prove that affirmative action is bad.

[gonpost]

You know, there are more minorities in the US than just African Americans... 12% of the US population is black, 15% is Mexican, and 4% is Asian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you all should discuss affirmative action based on the fact that these three types are all included in it. For some reason, you all have completely focused your attention on black people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And stop calling each other racists. While it may be somewhat true for some people, I'm sure it's not always intentional, and it really doesn't get anyone anywhere. People are bound to make "racist" remarks as they learn, because part of learning is understanding, and that takes time and patience.

[chris1216]

The reason I don't include discussion of Asians such as myself is because the average household income for Asian families is in fact higher than any other racial group in the U.S., and the reason I'm focusing on blacks is because they are the largest minority group, receive the worst treatment out of any group, and are the statistical majority among minorities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regardless of whether or not some of the people posting are intentionally being racist, pointing it out to them is also part of the learning process.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing worse than an intentional racist is a well-meaning unintentional racist.

[Locke]

When people talk about "institutionalized" racism, they forget who could actually be to blame about that. The role models for African-Americans are rap artists and NBA stars, who portray themselves proudly as thugs. Those are the people teaching African-Americans to act and present themselves in the manner that causes institutionalized racism. They should be the ones to blame, not whites because their ancestors kept slaves.

[mad4u689]

When people talk about "institutionalized" racism, they forget who could actually be to blame about that. The role models for African-Americans are rap artists and NBA stars, who portray themselves proudly as thugs. Those are the people teaching African-Americans to act and present themselves in the manner that causes institutionalized racism. They should be the ones to blame, not whites because their ancestors kept slaves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, so if all African-Americans presented themselves in a perfectly "white" manner, there would be no institutionalized racism? I don't think asking high-profile African-Americans to "act more white" and "be assimilated into white culture" is quite the solution. Rap artists and NBA stars (AND other high-profile African-Americans; way to assume the only famous African-Americans do rap or play basketball) who have a "thug" persona, but don't commit crimes and do donate money to charity - why aren't they good role models? Just because they don't fit into the fairly arbitrary white model of a good role model. There are plenty of high-profile white stars who commit drug or domestic crimes, and spend their money partying and not on charity; why doesn't that cause institutionalized racism against whites?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because institutionalized racism is embedded into a system of power, and currently, whites hold that power and are the "dominant" group receiving an unfair balance of privilege. It is more difficult for a Hispanic woman to be perceived as college-prep, and get good grades, and get good SAT scores than a white woman - but that doesn't mean she isn't just as qualified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action just helps level the playing field so that qualified applicants get seen, across the board.

[Locke]

Oh, so if all African-Americans presented themselves in a perfectly "white" manner, there would be no institutionalized racism? I don't think asking high-profile African-Americans to "act more white" and "be assimilated into white culture" is quite the solution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never said "white" - that your word, actually. So don't try and make me sound like a racist by doing that. I specifically referenced that rap artists and NBA stars act like thugs - white thugs exist as well, but white role models are more often than not, thug-like. My point is that this form of racism has nothing to do with color, it has to do with how people present themselves. When you dress like a thug and your role models sing about killing b*tches and h*es, guess what reputation you're giving off? That is true whether or not you are white or black. Example? The name "wigger" exists because of a "thug style." "Wiggers" get the same sort of treatment that African-American thugs do. The reason being, this form of attitude is not about race, but about how people present themselves, and African-American role models teach African-Americans to present themselves like thugs. It is not race that is the problem, it is the self-presentation that is taught by famous thugs like rap artists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rap artists and NBA stars (AND other high-profile African-Americans; way to assume the only famous African-Americans do rap or play basketball)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. I'm saying that African-Americans don't generally look up to other role models. But you can tell when they do...because they don't look and act like thugs. And guess what - people don't assume bad things about people who walk into a store looking respectable even if they are black! It's the thug-like appearance that is the cause. And no, I don't blame the majority of African-Americans for it. I blame their role models for teaching them to act like thugs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

who have a "thug" persona, but don't commit crimes and do donate money to charity - why aren't they good role models? Just because they don't fit into the fairly arbitrary white model of a good role model. There are plenty of high-profile white stars who commit drug or domestic crimes, and spend their money partying and not on charity; why doesn't that cause institutionalized racism against whites?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You keep saying it's "white" but it's not. It's respectable. Look around the world. "Chavs" dress like thugs and are looked down on. Everywhere in the world it is those who dress and act respectable that are given respect and not given a bad stereotype. Is it a coincidence that in my high school I went to, the Hispanics who dressed like thugs were looked down on, but the Middle Eastern and Oriental kids who dressed respectable weren't? To say that what people view as respectable is a "white" look is ignoring the way people dress and act all over the world. Just look at how the people all over the world in politics dress. "Respectable" is the same everywhere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because institutionalized racism is embedded into a system of power, and currently, whites hold that power and are the "dominant" group receiving an unfair balance of privilege. It is more difficult for a Hispanic woman to be perceived as college-prep, and get good grades, and get good SAT scores than a white woman - but that doesn't mean she isn't just as qualified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once again, it is not race, it is personal presentation.

[chris1216]

The hilarious irony of your chosen forum name almost doubled me over with laughter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After all, what's funnier than being lectured on race from someone who names themselves after a major investor in the slave trade through the Royal Africa company that also helped draft the constitution of the carolinas which gave slaveowners absolute power over their slaves?

[darkmage099]

The hilarious irony of your chosen forum name almost doubled me over with laughter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After all, what's funnier than being lectured on race from someone who names themselves after a major investor in the slave trade through the Royal Africa company that also helped draft the constitution of the carolinas which gave slaveowners absolute power over their slaves?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lmao, good point there. However, I betcha he admires Locke as a philosopher, not a slave trader.

[chris1216]

Locke's views taint all of his philosophical musings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another fun fact: Abraham Lincoln was a labor activist, not a champion against racism. He believed in the superiority of whites over all other races, especially blacks, but believed that blacks should be paid a fair days wage for work.

[1_man_army]

Locke's views taint all of his philosophical musings.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another fun fact: Abraham Lincoln was a labor activist, not a champion against racism. He believed in the superiority of whites over all other races, especially blacks, but believed that blacks should be paid a fair days wage for work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its worrying when you look back at quite a few past Presidents and see their views regarding race. Im pretty sure it was Nixon who had some unsettling views about Jews and Black people.

[Ambassadar]

1) Your argument assumes that the game being played is 0-0 without affirmative action, which is wrong because its more like being tilted 0-40 in favor of whites.

 

 

 

Explain to me how your skin pigment affects your GPA and SAT/ACT score. To my knowledge those two things are the only thing my college knew about me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also find your comment interesting because the black people I know that work hard and focus on educating themselves are usually pretty darn successful(and I live in a state that the media tries to portray as racist). I have a good friend from western Africa that came over and within 2 years of graduating college with an IT degree he was CIO of a corporation and had also started his own software business. I have other black friends that I was in engineering with and they are are doing just fine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) You have no idea what it's actually like to be born into situations that many people are born into- this whole "my brain can take me anywhere i want" is stupid motivational sayings that our teachers tried to drill into our brains since we were in diapers

 

 

 

And you have no idea what my situation was like growing up. So what? To act like white people just have it so easy and we get everything handed to us in life on a silver platter is ridiculous and you need to lose that attitude or you are never going to get anywhere in life because people don't like being around that attitude. It is irritating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your brain CAN take you most places if you use it enough, educate it, and condition it the right way. Explain to me how it can't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3)

If you were black? Shut up.

 

 

 

Refer to above comment about your attitude.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You have no idea what its like to have a different skin color, don't ever think about presuming to know what its like to be nonwhite.

 

 

 

So in other words you want me to be thinking "I'm white so I'm completely different than you?" Isn't that encouraging me to have a racist line of thought? Do you honestly want me to start thinking of you as so completely different than me? Are you saying I should define you in my mind by your skin color?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not quite sure what makes some of you so presumptuous that you claim to be able to put yourself into other people's shoes,but the only thing many of you are qualified to talk about is the privilege you've received ever since you were born.

 

 

 

While we are on the topic of being presumptuous....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You need to just chill out. You have so much built up anger that it is going to affect you negatively wherever you go in life and have to deal with other races. Quit with the excuses. Quit with the whole victim mentality. Everyone has tough times in life regardless of their color. No two people's experiences are the same but so what? Don't blow up at them just because they offer an opinion and their skin pigment isn't the same color as yours. That being said I want to remind you of your own statement. "The only thing worse than an intentional racist is a well-meaning unintentional racist." You might want to keep this statement in mind and review some of the things you yourself have said this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, growing up in a setting that many many minorities grow up in, they didn't even get a chance at the requisite test scores and school performance to qualify on paper.

 

 

 

Abraham Lincoln taught himself the legal profession by reading law textbooks at night by the light of a candle and his fireplace in a log cabin with no heat and power and no teacher. If he can do that no one in the US has an excuse why they can't teach themselves as long as they can read in the first place. If a person can read then that person can learn. It's their choice.

[chris1216]

First of all, your attempt to generalize your experience with the black people you know is not the slightest bit indicative of well, anything. Poor white people exist, black people born into wealth and status also exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The rest of your arguments can be answered by the following fact: White privilege still exists as a hierarchal system in the United States. As of yet, everyone who has argued with me on this thread has yet to even have the stones to admit that, much less disagree with me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If it is in fact true that white privilege is a fact of life, that privilege by logic is the result of something, that something being the oppression of minorities throughout U.S. history. That system continues to be perpetuated today, despite all your claims of "diversity" (read: buzzword) and "multiculturalism" (read: buzzword to avoid being labeled as racist).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, if white privilege exists, how does that affect your idea of a level playing field?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah. Abraham Lincoln was and always will be a racist. Using him as an example is like saying the last grand wizard of the KKK was a leading proponent of equality.

[jackattack]

affirmative action is a terrible thing. Someone shouldnt get anything just because there black. the only time its good is if its an poorer person who never had the opportunity to exel and got like a 2.5 being picked over a lazy person who got a 2.8 without trying. this isnt a race thing its a money thing.

[Locke]

 

The hilarious irony of your chosen forum name almost doubled me over with laughter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After all, what's funnier than being lectured on race from someone who names themselves after a major investor in the slave trade through the Royal Africa company that also helped draft the constitution of the carolinas which gave slaveowners absolute power over their slaves?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lmao, good point there. However, I betcha he admires Locke as a philosopher, not a slave trader.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No. Not a good point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, you spent time responding to arguments much weaker than mine, and instead, you make an irrelevant claim about my user name. How about a logical, and intelligent response towards the points I made?

[Jirka333]

Your example from earlier on about the Hispanic being just as qualified as a white person, even though they have a lower GPA and SAT scores is completely irrational. How are they qualified if they have bad grades!?! Maybe grades are more subjective, but standardized tests where everyone is subject to the same standards are as level of a "playing field" as posible.

 

 

 

Also, from a historical perspective, your portrayal of whites as ruthless racist slave owners is quite absurd. Ironically, it wasn't the Europeans who thought of slavery, Africans already had an extensive tradition of slavery long before any Europeans arrived on the continent. Also, Europeans rarley ventured inland to actually capture slaves, they just traded tribes who were happy to capture their neighbors and bring them to coast in exchange for trinkets. On another note, early on, the "playing field" was quite level, nothing was preventing Africans from developing superior weaponry and enslaving whites! It is just how history played out and there is nothing you can do to change it. However, now that we live in a modern society, we should work to respect each other and eliminate racism, as with all other hate, but reverse discrimination is not the way to go. Affirmative Action admits that certain races are inferior to others! It's what's inside your brain what matters, not the color of your skin. And yes, there are some conditions, such as poverty, that inhibit from getting as good of an education as others, but that is a problem that the governments should try to solve. And even then, America is a relatively free country and children can go to any public school the want, if their parents enroll them. If they don't then it's their own fault and nothing can really be done. (There is a big debate about charter schools being elitist in my area) But even then, people can always learn if they really want to; if they're lazy it's their own fault once again. And poverty isn't that big of a factor either, just look at those rappers and NBA players that make a lot more than many white people; even with a huge salary, they choose to remain ignorant and live like a "gangsta'" (I'm sorry, but not killing and raping people is universally regarded as common courtesy, not just the invention of weird white people). This behavior crosses racial lines: white filthy-rich brats going around vandalizing things immitating the "gangsta's" So, white people choose bad role models just as much as black people. People should be offered equal opportunities, but if they choose to not take advantage of them, it's their problem and the other racial group should not be penalized. Even in my school, there are African Americans, and they have the opportunity to take the exact same clases as me, and it's not my fault that they drop out. Of course, that is not to say that there are white dropouts, there are many. Maybe the best solution is to make special schools for stupid/lazy people and force them to be there until they learn the same things as everyone else! Then, no one could complain that some people have more of a chance than others. Of course that would be impossible, because that would be restricting personal freedom to make 40-year-olds to go to school. And, then everyone would have to be as smart as the smartest person on the planet, which is impossible, becuase there will always be relative stupidity. Also, it strikes me as interesting that it is here, in a country that values individual acheivment so much, that Affirmative Action is present, a policy that basically contradicts the notion of free enterprise and that "if you work hard, you can achieve anything". (I don't think it's in many other countries). In short, I believe that we need to eliminate racism through education and understanding, not create more of it with affirmative action.

[chris1216]

Locke, out of everyone who argued against affirmative action, your's was by far the worst and weakest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument, whether you want to admit it or not, is that minorities should act like whites if they want to avoid racism. Not only is that comment ludicrous in whether or not that actually works, it is both racist in its pretense and oppressive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the claim about your user name was irresistible and quite relevant- your admiration for a man like Locke certainly speaks volumes as to your credibility on a topic like this.

[chris1216]

Jirka, affirmative action admits that white privilege is a stark reality in today's society and seeks to amend that problem. It's institutionalized racism that makes the claim that certain races are inferior to others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This whole "gangsters" argument i haven't responded to yet because its so shockingly ignorant that it's hard to be able to put a response into words- it's like trying to argue with someone that says "but pedophilia is a good thing!".....it's hard to come up with anything besides "no, you're very wrong".

[Locke]

Locke, out of everyone who argued against affirmative action, your's was by far the worst and weakest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument, whether you want to admit it or not, is that minorities should act like whites if they want to avoid racism. Not only is that comment ludicrous in whether or not that actually works, it is both racist in its pretense and oppressive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the claim about your user name was irresistible and quite relevant- your admiration for a man like Locke certainly speaks volumes as to your credibility on a topic like this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. Dressing and acting respectable has nothing to do with race. Respond to the point that "chavs" are not just black people in the UK, yet they have the same bad rep because they look like thugs. Respond to the point why people of all races all over the country have a universal respectable way of dressing, no matter where they are. It is not a "white" thing to dress respectable, and you are being racist by suggesting so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. I admire Locke's philosophies. Especially in a culture where racism was not looked down upon, it is ridiculous and close minded to dismiss everything about a person because of a few moral flaws. Does it speak volumes about people who admire Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. for what he did for civil rights, even though he was an adulterer? Your logical is completely irrational, and since you fail to respond directly my points and the examples, it is clear you are grasping for straws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not the only one who sees the problem of the African-American culture as having to do with how people present themselves, and how they are taught to present themselves. This is an interesting book about the same subject written by Juan Williams - he is black by the way. Bill Cosby also Bill Cosby addressed this same problem. Cosby is known as being a great champion of civil rights through his positive portrayal of African-Americans through his comedy and his multiple television shows. His theories were that African-Americans need not only to be seen as respectable people, but also that their race should not be an issue that is talked about on the show - because people would see a respectable African-American family on TV like it was a "normal thing."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "gangster" argument is not weak. When white people come in dressed like gangsters for an interview, the interviewer does not look highly on that. It's not because he's white, its because he is presenting himself in a way that is not respectable. Once again, you fail to address my point. Why is it that in high schools groups of "wiggers" (white people dressed like thugs) are treated in the same negative way as black people dressed like thugs? It is because it is how people present themselves that draws attention to them, not their color.

[Jirka333]

Look, if a black person and a white person with exactly the same grades and SAT scores both applied to a college with affirmative action, the black person would be accepted, because black people, as a race, are too stupid to get an education by any other means, and if there are'nt any African Amercians in the school, it will be viewed as racist. This at least, is the presumption of AA. And besides, if black people are so disheartened by "White Privilege", why don't they just move back to Africa, where no one will judge them by their skin color, and get blown up in one of the civil wars? It's not my fault that rednecks are stupid, I shouldn't be at a disadvantage to applying for college. (when I do apply of course, which will be in some time). And also, prejudice is based on fact: homeless people, mentally ill people, and disfigured people could also argue that they are being discriminated against; predjudice is a self-preservation mechanism, we steer clear of people that we think may harm us. It is up to black people, as a group, are the only ones that can change this, with of course help from the media and government. I think the government has done its part: massive MLK day education inititives (I at least have been learning about civil rights since kindergarten), food stamp programs (only to be used for drugs and weapons), and yes, affirmative action. Clearly, none of these have helped, and it is up to blacks to get their act together and convince their less law-abiding counterparts to stop being that way. Unfortuantely, statistics do show the inordinate proportions of minority criminals, it is only in their power to change that.