Ignorance or Racism?

[ctp080188]

I just want to start this topic with a story, sorry if it is a long read. My good friend Edward and I were discussing the future of our University's Afro-Caribbean Society (ACS) and him being a very outspoken individual proposed a few things to me as to reasons why our society could not do the same things as other societies. Or appear not to do the same things as other societies.. Now our society proclaimed to introduce a night at our Student Union Bar that dedicated a whole night to Hip Hop, RnB, Bashment, Grime and Funky House music. We put this idea to the event managers and they turned it down, even though it had been planned out thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for why they turned it down? Because unfortunately this type of music attracts large groups of boys and after copious amounts of alcohol, promotes fighting and just unnecessary violence. Although not all the time, but there is a much higher risk of this behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward's reasoning for why they turned it down? They do not like the Afro-Caribbean race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now I told him I thought it was a silly thing to say, and he is not Ali G and it is not "cuz he iz black". But he then announced to me that the following Monday the International Society had planned a night that had only consisted of RnB and Hip Hop, yet they could hold their night. We attended the night and it was nonetheless a good night and no fighting ensued.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thus concluded his arguement. I seriously can't be bothered to argue with him half the time because he's just one of those people that do not know when to close their mouths. And I left it at that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Today I was speaking to him and he told me how he met someone that thought the only island with black people on it was Jamaica. He finished with the sentence "People are just ignorant". I told him that when I was younger I used to think all people with brown colouring to their skin were from India, that Pakistan and Bangladesh were all in India. He laughed, but at the time I knew no one of this background and ok maybe my geography skills lacked, but how else am I supposed to know or tell the difference if I have no one to learn from? He told me he understood where I was coming from but people should learn these things themselves. Bah like I'm going to go home and search pictures of Indians and Bengalis to learn the difference. I suppose he meant just be more aware, but I became more aware without learning myself, just moving school provided me with that education.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if someone has no knowledge of a race and naturally assumes things learnt from TV are true then this to him would be misconstrued as racism. So for example if someone called him Jamaican when he is quite clearly Ghanaian, he would take offense to this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The next story happened when talking about ACS again. The Society had organised a party in a local club and me, Edward and some other friends were helping give out flyers to promote it. I decided I wanted to go home and upon saying this, Edward told me I had to help finish. I had work to do and told him this, and then said to him out of jest "Well only a fourth of me is dedicated to this society seeing as I am only fourth Caribbean". Hence came his next lecture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward: "You do know, anyone can join the society, it was just founded by an Afro-Caribbean guy."

 

 

 

Me: "So why is it called Afro-Caribbean Society, surely that is an indicator of who is to join."

 

 

 

Edward: "It doesn't matter about the name."

 

 

 

Me: "So would you join the Jazz Society without expecting people who like jazz?"

 

 

 

Edward: "That's music, this society is for anyone who is interested in the types of events we hold."

 

 

 

Me: "So in the society, how many people are not from that origin?"

 

 

 

Edward: "Only a handful, but that makes no difference, I would join Chinese Society if I was interested. It's just other races are scared of black people because of our behaviour in the past years. I would not feel scared to join a large group of White English people, yet they would be afraid of a group black people. I feel stereotyped for just standing there, someone once said to me when with a group of friends - control your people, as if for one we were all from the same country and two, we were some alien object.

 

 

 

Me: Well yeah that was kinda rude but still...

 

 

 

Edward: "When I am in Africa I am a Kofi, a Ghanaian, when I am in England, I am a black man."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I'm really sorry that was so long, it's just bugging me. I know this is one example of one guy, but I know many people who talk like this, seemingly having a chip on their shoulder they won't let drop. He takes people's ignorance as a form of racism and it causes offence to him, yet he won't understand if people have not been exposed to this they would know no better. And I feel he is in turn just as ignorant as they are for not understanding their background as they have not understood his. This maybe due to people in the past discriminating against him, so now believes everyone is discriminating him on terms of colour, but I know myself and almost every one of my friends has been a victim of this and yet will not hold it against people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now to be honest I think Edward takes things out of proportion, and reads in between invisible lines. My arguement I guess is that some people perceive ignorance as racism, but then is it? Are they the same thing or different things? Some things are said spitefully, such as racial slurs which no doubt would definately be considered racist. But consider someone with a lack of knowledge who then makes a judgement according to race, which could be perceived as rude and racist, but does their lack of knowledge excuse them from this?

[Locke]

I would argue, and I think most people would agree with me, that all forms of racism and prejudice are manifested from some form of ignorance. But to submit that it as an excuse is preposterous.

[ctp080188]

So for example, when I was 14 and I thought every person with brown skin was Indian, that was racist, despite me never having actually had any Asian friends or having none at my school? No harm was intended by it, even if it caused mild offence, and lack of knowledge would mean I didn't know that could even be understood as racist. So is racism just a perception of others? Isn't taking offence to that one person's comment just as bad as the person giving it, considering either side do not understand each other?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if anyone understands me, lol I'm baffling myself.

[Locke]

So for example, when I was 14 and I thought every person with brown skin was Indian, that was racist, despite me never having actually had any Asian friends or having none at my school? No harm was intended by it, even if it caused mild offence, and lack of knowledge would mean I didn't know that could even be understood as racist. So is racism just a perception of others? Isn't taking offence to that one person's comment just as bad as the person giving it, considering either side do not understand each other?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if anyone understands me, lol I'm baffling myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how thinking someone is another race because of skin color is racism. Are you making negative assumptions, or assumptions (negative or positive) about their character or personality by believing they are a race they aren't?

[ctp080188]

 

So for example, when I was 14 and I thought every person with brown skin was Indian, that was racist, despite me never having actually had any Asian friends or having none at my school? No harm was intended by it, even if it caused mild offence, and lack of knowledge would mean I didn't know that could even be understood as racist. So is racism just a perception of others? Isn't taking offence to that one person's comment just as bad as the person giving it, considering either side do not understand each other?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know if anyone understands me, lol I'm baffling myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see how thinking someone is another race because of skin color is racism. Are you making negative assumptions, or assumptions (negative or positive) about their character or personality by believing they are a race they aren't?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

See this is what I mean, I would take no offence at someone guessing my race because I am mixed it is difficult to tell anyways. But my friends take offence to someone saying to them oh I thought the only Caribbean island with black people on was Jamaica, so when you said you were Caribbean I thought you were Jamaican. So even though they did not mean offence, their ignorance offended someone due to their lack of knowledge, and in accordance to the nature of race, is this racism or ignorance? I am not necessarily talking about the assumptions made, just the initial thought. I just remember going to a friend of mine's house who happened to be Bengali, and I asked her mum when she would next be going back to visit her family in India, and if they rode elephants, and she had words with my own mum about it, saying how ignorant and racist I was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, I'm beginning to wonder what I'm talking about now, I apologise if it makes no sense, but I am trying my hardest to put into words what is manifesting in my head!

[Locke]

I understand what you're saying. I don't believe that guessing someone's race due to their skin color is racism. Racism is when you assume that they are a certain way because of their race. Simply guessing their race isn't racism because you aren't associated any type of character trait or stereotype with them.

[Satenza]

Racism is discriminating against others because you think your or another race is superior to them. Thinking someone is indian because they have brown skin isn't racism. People try to define everything related to color as racism. For example "Can i have black coffee?" "Racist!". Which is sad to say actually does go on in this world. Mostly down to poltical correctness which is now at an all time high because of freedom groups protesting about things like this. When in actual fact what they have done is push it too the extreme and is taking away freedom to say things which have no racial intention.

[Bubsa]

We put this idea to the event managers and they turned it down, even though it had been planned out thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for why they turned it down? Because unfortunately this type of music attracts large groups of boys and after copious amounts of alcohol, promotes fighting and just unnecessary violence. Although not all the time, but there is a much higher risk of this behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward's reasoning for why they turned it down? They do not like the Afro-Caribbean race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you bother to get the union's reasoning for turning it down?

[WeeBoab]

"When I am in Africa I am a Kofi, a Ghanaian, when I am in England, I am a black man."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thats like... deep

[warri0r45]

My arguement I guess is that some people perceive ignorance as racism, but then is it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ignorance does not equal racism, as racisms suggests some sort of hate (brought on by the precursor of fear, but that's another issue). In my opinion, it is the mixture of ignorance and intolerance that breeds racism. Perhaps you could explain to your friend that just because people may not be totally aware of his culture, dosen't mean that they won't tolerate or accept him.

[mad4u689]

Racism and ignorance are very intricately tied together. Nowadays, most people are racist in some way (and most people are racist in some way - including myself, most likely) have the best intentions. They sincerely want to be good people. However, ignorance causes them to think things and make assumptions that just aren't true, and causes unintentional racism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Intolerance is not necessary for racism (though, arguably, racism is a form of oppression, and prejudice + power is necessary for it to be termed thus - however, I won't get into the politics of it.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The best thing to do is try to educate yourself. That doesn't mean you have to join the ACS if you don't have a special interest in it - but attending their events is a good start. Also, ask your friend why he isn't interested in joining the Chinese society. My guess is that it's because he feels a positive push towards his identity (Afro-Caribbean), but has no real passion or connection for a culture that is foreign to him. He probably doesn't know much about Chinese culture. I'd suggest he attend some of their events, and maybe educate himself, too :D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I meant about power relates to Edward's comment that "I would not feel scared to join a large group of White English people." That's probably because he has to face that every day - I am not judged every time I'm in a group because I'm white; rather, I just blend in. He probably gets judged every time. You should try to understand why that experience is difficult for him, and why he can be frustrated with ignorance and racism.

[warri0r45]

Racism and ignorance are very intricately tied together. Nowadays, most people are racist in some way (and most people are racist in some way - including myself, most likely) have the best intentions. They sincerely want to be good people. However, ignorance causes them to think things and make assumptions that just aren't true, and causes unintentional racism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Intolerance is not necessary for racism (though, arguably, racism is a form of oppression, and prejudice + power is necessary for it to be termed thus - however, I won't get into the politics of it.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most people are ignorant and stereotypical of some cultures today, granted, but ignorance and stereotyping because you know no better is not racism to me. Racism is more of an active thing than an inactive thing and is epitomised best by organisations such as the KKK etc. These people actively hate and are intolerant (a key factor of being a racist in my opinion) towards other races.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose if I were to take both of our opinions on board, you could designate active or passive racism. Active being based dominantly on intolerance and prejudice and passive being based more on stereotypes and ignorance.

[Mercifull]

Even Ghandi was a racist! Mad kinda hit the nail on the head there.

[warri0r45]

Even Ghandi was a racist! Mad kinda hit the nail on the head there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mind explaining? My knowlege on the life and times of Ghandi is minimal. It just seems odd to me to label such an influential person as a racist.

[ctp080188]

 

We put this idea to the event managers and they turned it down, even though it had been planned out thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for why they turned it down? Because unfortunately this type of music attracts large groups of boys and after copious amounts of alcohol, promotes fighting and just unnecessary violence. Although not all the time, but there is a much higher risk of this behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward's reasoning for why they turned it down? They do not like the Afro-Caribbean race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you bother to get the union's reasoning for turning it down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course we asked them, they said they didn't want an "Urban Music Night" and said they had to go and meet someone else, and left us there to ponder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand all of the points you have said, it is all very true in terms of it is not really a form of racism. But my new point is, lol sorry... if someone not familiar with another's culture made a comment on someone else's, and that person took offence to it, as would many from the same origin, would that have a impact on whether you would consider it to be "racist"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But then I guess the person that took offence is also ignorant to the other person's background and is kinda hypocritical... Ugh my brain is in a mess.

[Mercifull]

While campaigning for rights for Indian people against oppressors, and rightfully so, it was at the expense of blacks, which was not so great. He did a lot of good stuff but it was for his personal agenda.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Theres a lot of information on google of criticisms of Ghandi if you search.

[Bubsa]

 

 

We put this idea to the event managers and they turned it down, even though it had been planned out thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for why they turned it down? Because unfortunately this type of music attracts large groups of boys and after copious amounts of alcohol, promotes fighting and just unnecessary violence. Although not all the time, but there is a much higher risk of this behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward's reasoning for why they turned it down? They do not like the Afro-Caribbean race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you bother to get the union's reasoning for turning it down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course we asked them, they said they didn't want an "Urban Music Night" and said they had to go and meet someone else, and left us there to ponder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you see, you asked them but you didn't get the answer. I find it unreasonable for you not to get a valid excuse, but even more unreasonable for your party to speculate without having any pretences to base upon. That's really how racial prejudice begins.

[ctp080188]

 

 

 

We put this idea to the event managers and they turned it down, even though it had been planned out thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for why they turned it down? Because unfortunately this type of music attracts large groups of boys and after copious amounts of alcohol, promotes fighting and just unnecessary violence. Although not all the time, but there is a much higher risk of this behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward's reasoning for why they turned it down? They do not like the Afro-Caribbean race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you bother to get the union's reasoning for turning it down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course we asked them, they said they didn't want an "Urban Music Night" and said they had to go and meet someone else, and left us there to ponder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you see, you asked them but you didn't get the answer. I find it unreasonable for you not to get a valid excuse, but even more unreasonable for your party to speculate without having any pretences to base upon. That's really how racial prejudice begins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we did not get an answer after asking, what else are we going to? Of course we are going to think between us what the reasoning for it is if we were not provided with one, we were both irritated at not being able to organise it, and that they had blown us off with no reason. I know for one I'm not going to sit there and just live with it, there has to be some reason for it, questioning what that reason could be does not seem in any way unreasonable to me.

[Antrune]

Stop making topics in which lefties can hop on their high horse and attept to live in an ideal world.

[Bubsa]

 

 

 

 

We put this idea to the event managers and they turned it down, even though it had been planned out thoroughly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My reasoning for why they turned it down? Because unfortunately this type of music attracts large groups of boys and after copious amounts of alcohol, promotes fighting and just unnecessary violence. Although not all the time, but there is a much higher risk of this behaviour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edward's reasoning for why they turned it down? They do not like the Afro-Caribbean race.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you bother to get the union's reasoning for turning it down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course we asked them, they said they didn't want an "Urban Music Night" and said they had to go and meet someone else, and left us there to ponder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, you see, you asked them but you didn't get the answer. I find it unreasonable for you not to get a valid excuse, but even more unreasonable for your party to speculate without having any pretences to base upon. That's really how racial prejudice begins.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we did not get an answer after asking, what else are we going to? Of course we are going to think between us what the reasoning for it is if we were not provided with one, we were both irritated at not being able to organise it, and that they had blown us off with no reason. I know for one I'm not going to sit there and just live with it, there has to be some reason for it, questioning what that reason could be does not seem in any way unreasonable to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what you're doing. You didn't get an answer, so you just stop and try to come up with deranged justifications between you over a matter that could be so simple as funding, organisation or what have you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead of being an idol mind and speculating, get back on your trolley and re-propose your event until you get what you wanted. Whether that's the event to take place or the crazy reason why it won't take place you're constituting, I don't know.

[ctp080188]

No you don't understand, this was at the beginning of term, we have since then proposed a number of different nights, asked if we can have some of our society's DJ's Dj at some of the nights, propose a radio show. All of which have been declined. I only gave one example to just simply give an example. At the end of the day we have to hold our events in a local club because the student union bar refuses to support us, and have provided no reason to do so. What else do you expect me to do?

[pault]

The difference between ignorance and racism is that ignorance is not knowing about different races and their cultures, racism is making prejuidicial thoughts or statements or actions based upon that ignorance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, if a very sheltered young (let's say, eight years old) white kid asks the first black dude he meets on the street "What part of Africa are you from?" he's just uneducated and ignorant, not racist. But if he says "Go back to Africa, [bleep]." then he's racist.

[Bubsa]

No you don't understand, this was at the beginning of term, we have since then proposed a number of different nights, asked if we can have some of our society's DJ's Dj at some of the nights, propose a radio show. All of which have been declined. I only gave one example to just simply give an example. At the end of the day we have to hold our events in a local club because the student union bar refuses to support us, and have provided no reason to do so. What else do you expect me to do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah right mate. I understand your concern now. Sorry about the mishap there. I thought it was an isolated incident, but with many examples it is quite confusing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you thought about going to higher powers to complain about the shoddy student union? It might be folorn, granted it is here at King's College London, with the largest, most useless student union in the country, but if you get a large enough congingent you might be able to get some results.

[ctp080188]

 

No you don't understand, this was at the beginning of term, we have since then proposed a number of different nights, asked if we can have some of our society's DJ's Dj at some of the nights, propose a radio show. All of which have been declined. I only gave one example to just simply give an example. At the end of the day we have to hold our events in a local club because the student union bar refuses to support us, and have provided no reason to do so. What else do you expect me to do?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah right mate. I understand your concern now. Sorry about the mishap there. I thought it was an isolated incident, but with many examples it is quite confusing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you thought about going to higher powers to complain about the shoddy student union? It might be folorn, granted it is here at King's College London, with the largest, most useless student union in the country, but if you get a large enough congingent you might be able to get some results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry I did not make that clear, just can't come out with the right words at the right times me lol. I have suggested to the president of the society that we try and get something sorted, find out why we have been declined and given no viable reason, but our president is just not serious, and hardly a committed member at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I work at my student union bar which you would have thought would make things like this easier, but no. And now the manager of the bar is thinking of banning people from our society to get permission to enter the SU bar, because the club we hold our events at, he has something against, and because he found a flyer for one inside the student union bar, he now thinks that's reason to ban all the committee members. But this is a whole other issue, one I do not really know how to solve, it's difficult to think of reasons why they treat our society in this way. I look at other societies and none of them have any trouble at all, they are educated people just like ourselves and are able to hold nights of a similar quota to ours, yet they do not have all this stupidness from the managers. If I had the president of the society on my side then I may have more success, but the only thing she cares about is being able to write "I was president of ACS" on her CV. We were thinking of usurping her but looking at the current system, we'd probably be banned from the society or something stupid. Gah I could go on about this for days, so I'll end it here, lol.