ydrasil

I was not flaming in either of the previous posts where you have accused me of it. I wasdoing nothing more than pointing out that you have misunderstood or misinterpretted my posts more and more in comparison to earlier in the thread. But there is no universal value for experience, so how can it be added? Having been given the rate you get at Armoured Zombies of about 103k per hour and 190k profit, this can be broken down into 103k to melee, 34.3k to Hitpoints and about 9k to Summoning. For Slayer it is 195k experience per hour with 107k profit per hour. This is broken down into 75.5k to melee, 30.5k to Hitpoints, 26.7k to Range, 31.3k to Summoniong, and 30.8k to Slayer. If a player is given this information, they can determine themselves which method they would rather use. There is no need to add in a value of experience. It is up to the player to decide if they would rather get less combat experience per hour but nearly all of it being melee and Hitpoints (Summoning gain there is very small), or if they would rather get more combat experience per hour, but across all combat skills (except Prayer and Magic) whilst also gaining Slayer experience. That's odd, I was thinking the same thing. You have not posted any calculations that prove a cannon is inefficient. Not to mention you are not being consistent. I know that a cannon is efficient at 400k per hour. However, you should know for sure that at say 600k per hour, a cannon would of course be efficient. Since you are the maximum rate for Armoured Zombies (99 stats) and using a lower money making rate. You have already established in other threads that Green Dragons at your stats is over 600k profit per hour. As I have mentioned before, you need to be consistent. Either use 600k (minimum) as the profit rate, or lower the rate at Armoured Zombies to fit in with someone who only gets 400k an hour. To reiterate, the reason why it should be higher is simply by following your intial reasoning. You had said Aviansies was the lowest common denominator. However, we know that someone with 99 stats can get 600k+ profit an hour easily by using Green Dragons. So we know that their minimum profit has to be at least 600k. I did say combat training. Range and Hitpoints are COMBAT skills, and by training them, you are training combat. I know it is hard for you to understand and that it makes no sense, but that's just how it is.... [idiotic argument]Oh but wait. I thought you said COMBAT training, not melee training. Perhaps you should rephrase everything you have said about Armoured Zombies to indicate that you didn't plan on training combat. [/idiotic argument] I have read all of your replies and I have responded to them. I was using your logic (so of course it must be right!). You have provided no facts with your claim that my rates are apparently wrong, with your logic that makes it an opinion with no proof meaning it is irrelevant. See how that works? You expect everyone to provide factual evidence (which I do) yet you never provide any yourself. Didn't we establish that you would get my banking times after you give me your results? I still don't have your results, so you don't get my banking times yet. By real numbers for +10% prayer you mean? I always use +10% prayer as a minimum on every task. Since a cannon is efficient, removing it would be inefficient, so it stays. So yes, all of my rates have been supplied using efficient methods. You just refuse to accept the fact that Armoured Zombies is slower combat experience. Ok lets re-read your post: Omg amazing proof! Those calculations are amazing! I bet they can all kinds of things! Like be invisible and pretend like they don't exist also! All anyone has to do is use piety, if it provides more than a 12% boost, then you are wrong (can't be a maximum if you can get higher). Skeletal Wyverns is about the best possible task to use piety on and you will get a significant boost in experience. Note: Do not say earlier in the thread. That just isn't going to cut it anymore as you use it as an excuse to not have to provide rates or calculations (as nearly all of the times what you say is in the thread isn't there). Oh, did I say or infer that? Nor have I lied earlier inthe thread (not that I can remember anyway). If you are referring to the Slayer rate I said earlier in the thread, you would see that.... You know what, i'm not going to bother explaining it. Go back and read my reply, I even posted it again not that long ago. It will show that I was never lying about that rate. I also noticed you ignored the thread I directed you to on the rsof. If you actually wanted proof that Slayer was better, than that thread is all that is needed. You posts indicate that you had read that thread before making this one. That means you already knew and know Slayer is better, and you onyl did this for the argu...deba... whinging involved.

There was no flaming in that quote. Everything I said was based on observable facts in comparison to the rest of the thread. In general your replies are getting worse in that they are less thought out and you constantly misunderstanding and misinterpretting what I have posted. I personally do not see why you are saying that I don't understand your posts or that I do not respond them. I have responded to every single one and understood nearly all of it (I'd say all, but i'm sure I have made some errors at some point). Also unless I am not reading this right, you have contradicted yourself once again. You state the only universal factor is time. You also agree that each player has a different value of experience (while there is some who would have the same value, the chances are minimal). So you essentially agree with everything I was just trying to convey and disagreed with your intial statement. This is because if you believe the only universal factor is time and value's differ across players, than that means it would be incorrect to add in a set value of experience to apply to everyone. I have been with the thread the entire time. I have read every single post you have made (as ewll as everyone elses). I also know what I have posted. I know that you never proved a cannon inefficient, and I know that I calculated that is is more efficient. Those are all facts, anyone that looks back will see that this is true. Also back when the cannon's efficiency was being debated, how come you never posted your results for your supposed 80 hours of testing? One would think that would be the most logical time to bring them up, because if they showed a cannon was inefficient then of course you would want to show you are right. If the showed a cannon was efficient than that is good also as you have said you wanted a reverse argument. However that is not the case. I am pretty sure you just made up the fact that it was a reverse argument as every single post of yours throughout the thread indicates it wasn't. Oh right, because I was clearly flaming there. All I said was that you have contradicted yourself throughout the thread - an observable fact. Feel free to point out where I also did not understand your posts instead of purposely going off on a tangent to avoid the issue brought up. #-o :wall: :wall: :wall: You have got to be kidding me. When did I ever mention training melee or magic there? Have I ever inferred either? My quote was nothing more than saying using chinchompas there is the fastest combat experience. This is an undeniable fact (unless there is a way to get over 430k combat experience per hour in the game that I do not know about). Since no other method of training in the game exceeds that amount of combat experience gained, that means that this method is the fastest combat experience in the game. Why are you even arguing this? I bring up a small fact, in parenthesis, and you blow it out of proportion just so you can start another argument (which furthur adds to my point that this thread here is only so you can have an argument). That is really odd. That table I posted included rates of experience and profit for each task. As you say, those numbers are facts not opinions. So according to you, people can only "believe" or "think" Slayer is better if they have facts. Those facts have been supplied and show Slayer is better. However I shall now use your logic. I have provided facts/rates and done calculations to show they are correct. You have only just now claimed that they are false. You have not given any rates/calculations/evidence/proof that my rates are incorrect. That makes your claim an opinion. Since this opinion has no basis, your opinion in this matter is irrelevant. Refer to my response after the second quote I have of you. I have supplied rates, you have not. Since you have not supplied rates, your opinion is irrelevant. Wow this logic of yours is working good now. Thats odd, I ignored it by responding to it you say? You'll find my rates and calculations of Slayer earlier in the thread. I have posted a table of my rates many times throughout the thread, you have responded to it many times. So yes, you have my rates. Don't come up with some bs reasoning that I have apparently not posted them. Go back and read your post to which I responded to. Then explain to be how the only possible way that your post can be interpretted is that it was sarcasm. Since you seem incapable of going back to read what was posted earlier in the thread (which is odd as you go against your advice where you tell others to go back and read), here is what I responded to: Of course your right. It is so clear to me now. Of course it was sarcasm. I mean, there's no possible way that post could be interpretted to not be sarcasm, right? It works both ways (mainly my way, as you are inferred it can only be interpretted as sarcasm, which is not the case). Show me the calculations and rates where you proved that true. Whoops you can't. Your opinion is irrelevant as that is made up and has nothing to back it up. Piety can have greater than a 12% effect. Also, feel free to show me how my rates can lie. If you are talking about my rates as a whole (and I assume you would be), then explain to me why this thread on rsof "98-99-703-58532304" agrees with me and even has higher rates. My "testing methodology" is accurate and my methods are based on efficiency. So no, my rates are correct. Unfortunately I was responding to this earlier and ran out of time. I was going to save what I had typed up but somehow I accidentally close the tab and lost it all :( . So I lost many of the great points I had brought up.

Seriously, your replys have been getting worse and worse. You continually misunderstand what I am saying and come to illogical conclusions. As I have said over and over, to add in the value of experience would be incorrect as that value does not apply to everyone or even the majority, same reasoning with profit rates. What you are unable to comprehend is that the rate is essentially a ratio. For that amount of combat experience you get that much profit. The player can then determine for themself how to value that experience in comparison to another method. This is the point I have been making all along. To reiterate: There is no universal value of experience. By suppling the rates obtained each individual player can use these rates and assign their own values and from that determine what method is worth more to utilise. However, since a cannon is efficient, it increases the overall efficiency of Slayer. The point I was making (look at the last paragraph of the response), i'll restate as you again seem unable to comprehend it. You have said you are an efficient Slayer, I showed you aren't. Simple as that. Essentially all of your first is irrelevant as of now. It contains nothing but outdated information that has never been updated. That point asside, you are ignoring the point. This quote traces back to your definition of of how to determine the best method to use. Read back and you will see that this is the case. Your definition was: All I did in the response was show that this was impossible to do. I pointed out either you actually believed this defintion and it was wrong, or you made a mistake when you were trying to type it up. I can only come to the conclusion that you actually believe it to be true since you are trying to defend it so much. In which case that definition is wrong. You have done nothing to show it isn't. Right. So I show a direct contradiction in your posts and you do nothing to show otherwise. Just like you have done so throughout the thread. Are you seriously going to be this stupid? Do you honestly agree with what you just typed here? When I have ever said or inferred that you can train melee with chinchompas? You will not find a quote that says this because I have never said or inferred this. Lets see what are the combat skills. There is Attack, Strength, Defence, Range, Magic, Hitpoints, Prayer and Summoning. Now lets see, going on what I actually said (you know... what was actually said.... not made up): Now lets see, what skills are trained by using chinchompas here. Well there is Range and Hitpoints. Now let us just look back to which ones are combat skills. Yep, these are combat skills. So yes, chinchompas are the fastest "combat" experience (just so there is no room for misunderstanding). What about every post where I have given you the benefit of the doubt that you had some form of intelligence. How about you show me where I am using a "wrong method". You have never mentioned this before. What sort of "incorrect testing methodology" are you sujesting I employed? The only that applies to testing is knowing the start and finish experience, and the time it took to gain that experience (which I got by using a stopwatch). So tell me that test is incorrect? There is nothing wrong with it. You just can't face the facts that Slayer is better, so you have to resort to making up arguments to prove your point. Nope. I can't miss what was nbever there to begin with. This is first time you have ever said you had performed 80 hours of testing with a cannon, which oddly enough absolutely no-one can find. So either tell me the post numbers where you show your rates for a cannon, or concede that actually made this up as well. Besides this is nothing out of the ordinary. You have made up rates throughout the thread. First post saying Zombie Monkies is only 40k loss per hour, you also say Slayer is only 50k per hour and that is what is generally obtained. Just like you saying Slayer profits at most 50k per hour, or 10k per hour with piety. All of those are made up. Oh i'm sorry. Of course because I didn't post in this response that experience from a cannon is equal to twice the damage done. Or that experience from using melee is 4x damage to the melee skills and 1.3x the damage to Hitpoints. According to you, just because I didn't post these numbers in my responses, that makes my post a made up generalization? Of course you must be right.... seriously, you aren't that stupid are you? Had you continued reading my post, I posted an example of where this applies (cannoning Dagannoths). So you ignore the main section of my post and bring up something I already know, you're a genious. You will average the exact same drops from a certain number of a NPC (a Slayer task) regardless of how it is completed. Meaning the only thing that changes is the time it was obtained in. Lets go back to using Dagannoths to show this. For my rate with a cannon I get 69.6k Slayer experience per hour and 49.2 Summoning experience per hour worth in charms. A ratio of 1.415:1. Using the above rate of 100k melee experience per hour with no cannon (it wouldn't really go up that much, but it proves my point), you would get 25k Slayer experience per hour. Meaning you would only get 17.7k Summoning experience using the same ratio. So because you don't use a cannon, you lose out on 31.5k Summoning experience per hour. That is what I said earlier. You don't get sarcasm do you? What he said is an exact parallel to what you are saying, and in your response you proved our point. You would rather be given the information straight up, than look through the help & advice forum. Yet you would propose that only you are allowed to do this? As you refuse to post the results and say to find it buried within 74 pages of forum text (which I am 99.99% sure are not even there - no such thing as 100% sure). That is wrong. Piety is more efficient provided you can make enough profit per hour, so what toadalmighty said is relevant. Piety when used in certain places can boost your experience rate by alot. For example, at Skeletal Wyverns. On the basis that Qeltar was being efficient (even though he really isn't), compared to my rate I am getting a bit over twice as many kills per hour. It is a 35k experience increase.

So according to you, I should drop a valid argument just because it opposes what you believe? The value of experience cannot be calculated and adding in to be taken as fact for the entire population of runescape. Gp is the base line from which all comparisons are made. However it is true that people might value it differently. How you value experience is with respect to gp. How you value gp will be wiith respect to.... what? Gp is the basis from which all comparisons are made in this case. Also, the value of money can be considered relative. A level 3's equipment costs alot less than that a 138 might use. This means that the 1k will supply a greater percentage of the required money to buy armour when compared to a 138. However this is flawed slightly, as combat level isn't what you should be referring to. It should simply be considered a new player compared to an experienced player. That has to be one of the most pointless things you have said thus far. Nothing happens instantly (as in no time - 0 time), which means time is a variable for everything in existence. So it isn't an assumption, it is a fact. Your idea of value is still flawed. You are comparing an item to experience gained (apples and oranges). If it was a comparison of experience to experience, then that argument could apply. Meaning if someone valued Construction experience to be very high and combat experience to be very little or worthless to them, then yes, training Construction can be considered superior to Armoured Zombies. That isn't what we are discussing though and you have purposely ignored the basis of my post. I showed that you are being inefficient when it comes to training Slayer, that is all. It is quite simple. For you personally, it is more efficient to use a cannon than to not use one. Since you do not use one, you are being as efficient as you can be. That you need to resort to making up facts should show how desperate you are to be right. I have never said (specifically or otherwise) that a cannon is inefficient at 400k profit per hour. My calculations showed a cannon being worth using, not the opposite. To be honest, saying it is a general rate is just a way for you to dismiss anything higher as invalid. Can you tell be without a doubt, 100% true, what is "generally obtained"? No you cannot. You cannot even make any sort of accurate estimate to what is "generally obtained". Since that is the case, the logical choice is to compare similar players rates for the different methods. Hell, what you say here even contradicts your other posts (once again). Are you going to try and say that 103k melee experience is what is "generally obtained"? As well as the profit rate of 190k? You have never been consistent with this throughout the thread. The most logical choice is to compare maximum rates, or at the very least people with same stats. That way it can be seen as a ratio and makes levels irrelevant as it scales up/down accordingly. So that technically means my rates should not be getting compared to the 103k rate for Armoured Zombies that you get, because my rate is too low. This only goes to show that I have lower stats and yet get superior rates, making Slayer jump even furthur in front than what it already is. Oh i'm sorry, I was under the impression that you had said the key words you used were "combat training", which were nowhere to be found. If you looked back at the posts (like you so often suggest but you never seem to follow your own advice) you'll notice this specific quote traces back to how you determine what is the best method. To which I responded and showed that your definition was incorrect, and I showed how I came to that conclusion. You that responded by trying to say I had apparently missed the key words "combat training", yet simply looking back at your posts proves that was an excuse (very bad one also). I mean come on, you made a mistake when you typed it and changed the meaning (referring to original respone to determine best method), or you actually meant it, and that definition cannot be correct as it is impossible to do so. That is all there was to it. That was point #-o . I was saying there is no difference for me when between casual slaying and testing it. I talk to friends during both cases and pay the same amount of attention in both cases. The only difference is that there is a stopwatch counting in one and not the other..... which was my point from the beginning. As long as you finally show me your rates that would be fine. Do you see where he posted "lolz cannon is faster ur nub lulz"? Or anything resembling that type of immaturity that would be present in that sort of thoughtless response? The quote you responded to wasn't even referring to Morningrise333's post anyway. It was showing a direct contradiction in your posts. Oh i'm sorry, I should have said combat rates instead of melee rates when referring to chinchompas. Wait... what's this? "fastest combat experience per hour is using Chinchompas at Ape Atoll" Wow, turns out I never said melee experience! I had said 'combat' experience all along..... so err, what was your point again? I was doing nothing but pointing out that the fastest combat experience in game was by use chinchompas in Ape Atoll dungeon (unless there is a method of getting over about 430k combat experience in the game that I have forgotten/didn't know about). We weren't discussing Slayer experience either. I also stated that Slayer resulted in more combat experience per hour than Armoured Zombies and also got about 31k Slayer experience. Wow, this is new. After about 2 and a half months since I posted these rates you only now say you think they are incorrect or that I am lieing. This is just so funny for so many reasons. Not once have you ever mentioned anything wrong with my rates earlier. I even found the opposite of you saying they are incorrect in a few posts: The last quote is more indirect. If you actually believed them to be incorrect or that I was lying, one would think that be a "main point" wouldn't you think? So no, you have never said or inferred that you believed the were tested incorrectly or that I am lying. You only bring this up now as you know they are correct but you simply want to be right. This also brings me back to a point I mentioned a while ago. This thread is not continuing for the purpose of the thread anymore. Only to satisfy your want of a debate. This is evidenced where you (only recently) said this thread was intended as a reverse arugment, yet your posts from earlier in the thread indicate otherwise (not to mention the idea of a reverse argument is pretty stupid in the first place). So saying that is what you intended all along is absolute bs. If you really wanted it to be a reverse argument to show Slayer is better, then why make up so many bs excuses? "Omg omg omg... that post shows Slayer is better... what to do, what to do, what to do... I know! I'll ignore it for now." About two and a half months later. "Omg omg omg... he brought up the table that showed Slayer is better again...what to do, what to do, what to do... I know! I'll ignore the experience rates for now and make up lame reasons why the profit rate is off. I'll then eventually say he is lying! Or maybe that it was an incorrect test! Or maybe even both!!! Yea that is sure to work." Yes I understand that is a bit immature, but it gets my point across. if you really wanted a reverse argument to show Slayer is better, then why do you dismiss all evidence that points to Slayer being better? You know... where you just said my rates are lies or incorrect. Not to mention my rates given are lower than what is possible, as evidenced by Zarfot's guide. His guide alone shows Slayer is superior, but that seems irrelevant to you. You've performed 80 hours of testing with a cannon? That's the first i've ever heard you mention that. Considering you have never given your results for such a test, and one would think that you might use those results back when the cannon was being discussed. No-one is denying that per damage, you get less experience from a cannon compared to melee. The melee experience overall does not drop that much and you gain alot of Range experience and faster experience in other skills as a result. Reloading a cannon takes no time, it can be done in between hits. Picking up drops does not use up alot of time either. You aren't fully considering the factor of time. You are basing this on per kills rather than per time frame. For any given time frame, the amount of experience you are getting per hour is much higher than what is gotten without a cannon. For example at Dagannoths, I am still getting 70.8k melee experience per hour. Yes if there wasn't a cannon I would get more melee experience (how much exactly, I do not know). However while I lose some melee experience, I have gained 119.2k Range xp/h, increased Slayer xp/h, increased Summoning xp/h and overall higher xp/h. Assuming for now that had you not used a cannon that you would get 100k melee xp/h, an increase of about 30k. Assume compfreak847 actually does value melee experience 3 times more valuable than Range. Also assume that an other increased rates of experience aren't there at the moment. On that basis alone a cannon is worth more experience. As 3 times more valuable experience for melee is an effective 90k less for melee per hour, But you get 119.2k Range instead. Add in all the other additional experience and it only gets better. That is only true if you consider what was posted in the first post to be true. He has never updated that post to account for new information presented so that portion of the post has never changed for the life of this thread. In my experience however, I get more combat experience per hour compared to Armoured Zombies + the Slayer experience, for a slight reduction in profit which is worth it to me. So overall, Slayer is a good way to train combat and for those who train it efficiently it is the best way overall to train combat. Also I can't believe I had overlooked this before, but responding to Italian5kamikaze made me think of it. In all previous calculations for determining if a cannon is efficient, the increased rate of experience for Summoning was never taken into account. This only adds to it making it even more efficient than it already way.

This is basically all opinion here. You (only you) might value Melee experience 3 times as valuable compared to Range, that does not mean everyone, the average person, or even anyone else does. Assuming I understand you correctly with the rates however, you are saying that a cannon lowers your melee xp/h rate and increase the Ranged xp/h? Feel free to explain to be how those points you mentioned earlier (there were 7 of them) apply to those rates? Your first point was less experience per hit, that is accounted for already. That is what comprises the rate, and overall you get more experience per hour. Point 2 was about picking up drops, already accounted for when you tested the rate. Point 3 has the same reasoning as 2. Point 4 was stupid and has no affect on anything what so ever. Point 5 was costs, which is already accounted in with the profit rate. Point 6 was costs related to cannon usagae. In general cannon will save on supplies not cost more, so this point is backwards. Finally spawn times, same reasoning as points 2 and 3. I'll say again. Yes those points are what influence the hourly rate. No calculations need to be done on the rate to adjust for those though as they have been adjusted for already during the test. So again, when it comes to getting the rate of experience, those points are irrelevant in that no calculations need to be be done to adjust for them as they are already including. Way to miss the point. What other players get is irrelevant here. I wasn't talking about or referring to them. It was purely about you. You claim you can get up to 825k on Aviansies and 1m at GWD. If that is true (i'm not trying to argue if it is or not, just showing the point), you are currently using inefficient methods in which to train Slayer. Ignore everyone else, I am talking about you here. Again you bring up the value of experience, what you do not understand is that it cannot be calculated. The part in quoatation marks is pointless also as I have never said that or anything along those lines. You cannot add in a value of experience into the calculations here because it differs for every person. That is what you seem unable to comprehend. In reverse, why is so difficult for you? The only reason you have given for not wanting to post them is simply because that would give others less reason to read the entire thread? I can tell you right now, at the moment essentially no-one is going to read through the entire thread just to post a response. Did I say everyone? Have I ever inferred everyone? That response you quoted of mine came directly from your confusion of my apparent inconsistency. I replied (I have to go through it again because you seem to have misunderstood) back saying that I had never agreed a cannon was inefficient, so that part of your response is irrelevant. It was also the basis of that response, so the entire thing was irrelevant. Explain to me why I should not use a cannon considering it is efficient to use one at 400k and I can easily make over double that? What logical reason would I have to give up that efficiency? Since I am sure you can do the same money-wise, what logical reason do you have to not use a cannon? It is actually quite odd when you think about it. Your rate for Armoured Zombies comes from maxxed stats. Your maxed stats rate for Green Dragons is also 600k (around that anyway). I am sure there are many other things that maxed stats allows you get even higher profit rates. Do you see the dilemma here? You use the rate of experience for someone with maxed stats, but the profit rates of someone in the 80s (at a guess). So really it comes down to either the profit rate for someone who can get 103k per hour at Armoured Zombies is at least 600k per hour, or the profit rate is 400k per hour and they get about 80k per hour at Armoured Zombies. That is an inconsistency, what I had posted was not. Damn, I must have gone blind. I just couldn't seem to see the key words "combat training" anywhere at all. Also a quick note; Summoning experience is combat experience, just thought you should know. Either way, I know what combat experience over time is. I was pointing out your definiton of "efficient" was wrong, or at the very least you didn't type what you actually trying to convey. I should have expanded on what I meant. Your post was a response to where I said you are not efficient, you said - "When casual slaying, not testing. There's a difference." From this it is interpretted you are efficient while testing, not while casually slaying. In other words, you are only efficient when testing. I was pointing out (maybe not in the best way) that my casual slaying is the exact same methods and attention as testing. Meaning I am always efficient, not only when testing. Finally we are getting somewhere. If you do message them to me I won't post them on the thread, but I will refer to them (obviously). Refer to this quote of yours: Specifcally the bolded section. So by simply reading the thread, that means they agree with your rates? (I won't go into the lack of your rates) These 2 quotes are contradicting each other. You say not everyone agrees with your rates and then say if they have read the thread they agree with them. It is not the fastest (fastest combat experience per hour is using Chinchompas at Ape Atoll) combat experience in the game. But in my experience it is faster than Armoured Zombies, this is backed up with 'numerical facts'. About 20k combat experience faster, and then an additional 31k experience on top of that for Slayer.

I'm gone for like 2 days and I miss a heap of discussion. Had no internet for past couple days -.- . Am now on adsl2+ (didn't get as fast a connection I was hoping for, but still much better) so my net is faster and more downloads :thumbsup: . Most of the responses I don't feel I need to respond to as Morningrise333 covered them quite well. They are considered, but are irrelevant. That is my point. In performing the tests for the average rate of experience, those factors are already assounted for and boost/reduce your average rate accordingly. Sure you can mention they are there, but to reiterate - they are irrelevant. :wall: We went through this earlier in the thread. There is no set amount for the value of experience. Everyone values experience in each skill differently, so you cannot add in the value of experience here. The smiley also refers to you mentioning the 400k again. I wasn't doing that for everyone else, that was specifically for you. I was showing that you are inefficient. As you have posted in many other threads, you claim you can get up to 825k from Aviansies, 600k (I think it was) from Green Dragons and also 1mil or so from Godwars (all on an hourly basis). Not to mention I am sure you have other money making methods. Since you make that much, you are being inefficient for not utilising the cannon. Yet over and over you have tried to claim you are an efficient Slayer, this shows you are not. That is what I was trying to convey. But I have no recollection of you posting your rates and you refuse to post them again or tell me where to find them (saying middle of the thread or page 15-50 or whatever else like that, is not telling me exactly where). The fact that you have said you would do a comparison between mine and yours had indicated you had the rates. You claimed you lost them on your computer. However since (i'm assuming here) you would have known that before you posted that you would compare, that can only mean you knew where to find them. Since that is the case, it should not be this hard for you to tell me exactly where they are. More bs excuses to be honest. I'm not telling you what you meant. I am saying there is no logical way you could have come to the conclusion that I don't use protection prayers. There was also no logical reasoning to any of the conclusions you came to regarding this matter. It might just be me, but "You never said you always used prayers for brews" doesn't sound right to me. If what you were trying to say is that I never said that I used brews when I used protection prayers, than you are wrong. I specifically stated the conditions under which I would use Zamorak Brews. That condition was that if I was using a protection prayer and taking no damage that I would then use them. Everytime that condition is met, I used Zamorak Brews. Why is that so hard to understand. The last part is where you again (I can't believe you can be this ignornant here) show you do not understand what I posted, did not actually read my post, or are a complete moron. You went under the assumption that I did not use a cannon there? Explain to me how you came to this conclusion. Especially consdering in the very same post I brought up the Zamorak Brews, I had posted this; "Tasks Cannoned - Aberrant Spectres, Bloodvelds, Dagannoths, Fire Giants, Scabarites and Suqahs." That means I told you I used a cannon there, and then you followed up by later coming to the conlusion that I do not? What possible explanation can you have for that? Errr what? Where was my information inconcsistent. I never agreed a cannon was inefficient. You will never find a post where I say that because I have never agreed to that (how can you be this ignorant?). I have always used a cannon and always will because it is more efficient to use one, simple as that. Which is why it is included in my equipment.... I mean... using a cannon falls under what equipment I use right? :roll: The only "version" you need to believe is the only "version" that was presented to you. That version is that a cannon is more efficient than no cannon. Not to mention those calculations were based on only 400k profit per hour being possible. I get far more than that, making a cannon much more efficient that what it already was.... and you expect me to not use a cannon because you are under the delusion it is inefficient? How arrogant is that? I would have said that title is also wrong because you have provided no such analysis. Well since you can only get Slayer experience by doing Slayer (at a reasonably rate), the overall best experience (across all skills) means that one method has to include getting Slayer experience. Also it might be just me, but that defintion seemed a bit confusing. You can't equalize every rate except time simultaneously. By that I mean each method will have a set profit (whether negative or postive) per experience point for that skill. The current debate shows this clearly. Armoured Zombies (your rate): 146.3k experience per hour. 190k profit. = 1.299gp profit per experience Slayer (my current average rate): 195k experience per hour (I think it was, haven't gone back to check). 105k profit. = 0.538gp profit per experience. That is overall experience by the way. The point being that if you balnce the experience rates, the profit rates will not be equal. So you aren't equalizing all rates except time. So your definiton is wrong in that respect. Unless of course I am misunderstanding what you posted. So you are inferring that my personal rate can only be gotten because I am testing? The test is based on how I "casually" train Slayer, so that is irrelevant. At the very least you could message us the results and we won't repost them in the thread if you are that worried about it. I need your numbers to fully compare where you are going wrong (might sound a bit arrogant but you can't deny you seem to go far slower than what I do). That is beyond stupid. So if they have read the thread that must mean they agreed with your rates? And yet anyone who reads the thread will not find your rates for experience. How odd is that?

D Jay99, I posted a table of the summary of my results for the average experience rates as well as profit rates that I am getting for Slayer. At the moment compfreak847 seems to be thinking up any excuse he can to try invalidate them. Although the only things he has come up with so far is directly related to profit rather than the rate of experience. So the rate of experience is correct, and it far exceeds that of Armoured Zombies. Also don't get me wrong, I know more tests would provide more accurate results, but the rates are quite accurate and profit rates are reasonably accurate as evidenced by calculating it. I have also suggested again recently (I did so ages ago also but to no avail) that the first post should be updated to include such things. It would allow for other people to read and also make informed posts as it is nothing short of foolish to expect them to read the entire thread (as compfreak847 refuses to argue over rates with someone who hasn't read it all, and as such leaves very few people who are "allowed" you could say). Here is the table if you're interested: [hide=Table][/hide]

You have made a mistake. The part that you quoted in your response, to which I then replied to your response was not what was quoted above. Maybe not explained the best, but go back and you should understand. He posted something, you quoted that and responded to it. I quoted your response here, and responded to that. You now bring up a different quote which was not what this was based on. The quote was this: He specifically states a few posts up. The only one I brought up was about Bloodvelds as that was the only one I tested myself personally (as Qeltars rates cannot be truly trusted as efficient). So from that it can be deduced he was referring to the Bloodveld part. The point isn't that they have to be considered. In testing all of these factors are essentially accounted for and they already boost/lower the rate. Meaning, you don't perform a test which results in X experience for Y time using a certain method (for example using a cannon, as that is what we are talking about), and then follow up that tested by changing those figures to account for those points you mentioned above. That should make sense to you. If it is already in the test, no need to do it twice. From this, what I am trying to convey is that all of those factors were accounted for already in the testing of experience per hour for a given method. So out of all those points you mentioned, only one applies, and that was cost. Combine that with time to determine which is more efficient. I don't see what was difficult to understand. I was not referring to your mousing clicking speed and such, that was clreay indicated I thought. It was quite obvious I was referring to the methods utilised as in the quote it says: One would think from that I am referring to methods. This was directly brought up as you now say you do not use a cannon on Aberrant Spectres, which is inefficient (especially considering I am sure you can make over 400k an hour as you claim you can get 825k at Aviansies). Now I don't have a number for how many cannonballs I use per hour on average for Spectres, but that doesn't matter for now. Referring to your response that you get 19.8k Slayer experience per hour, and using my result of 43k (in my table I posted), we should see which is more efficient. It would take me 27.63 minutes to get the same amount of Slayer experience. This leaves 32.37 minutes to make back what is lost due to a cannon (only the cost of cannonballs). We don't know the amount of cannonballs, but we can work in reverse. If it were to be more efficient to use a cannon at only 400k, then for the 27.63 minutes I can use a maximum of 215,814gp worth of cannonballs in that time. Based on the price of 188 each, that is 1,148. That extrapolates to 2,493 per hour. So if I were to use that many cannonballs an hour, it would make a cannon inefficent at 400k an hour. Using the same process, at 500k an hour I would have to of used 3,116 cannonballs an hour. Using the same process, at 600k an hour I would have to of used 3,740 cannonballs an hour. I can assure you I do not use over 3k an hour so at 500k you can be assured it is more efficient at that point. I am unsure for the rate of 400k. However, since we can assume you make more than that, a cannon is more efficient for you to use. This all shows that you are using an inefficient method for Slayer. Well I think you have purposely mislead me. I was under the impression that you were talking about a 10% change from the average (which can go both ways to a total of 20% spread). Now you indicate here that you were talking about a 10% difference in the minimum and maximum. The average would have to be somewhere in the middle meaning it is only about a 5% deviation. That is not something I disagree with. A 10% deviation from the average was what I was disagreeing with. All of this was based on a misunderstanding it seems as I agree a 5% deviation is acceptable. So we don't have a similar argument as we already are, I won't go in to whether it was my fault or yours, as it doesn't really matter in the long run. That chart was compiled entirely from Qeltars beastiary. As I have said, I agree with the calculations but disagree with the numbers utilised. This is evidenced where I have lower stats and yet achieve a kill rate of approximately 97 higher per hour on Bloodvelds. I have never said the first 40 pages was about nothing either. Many other things were also discussed besides that intial assumption. That is your problem. We are not using the same methods. I am utilising what I have calculated to be the most efficient methods to train Slayer where you do not (as shown above for Aberrant Spectres). I am not denying if the everything else the exact same except for the player themselves, then yes there would be no difference in actual average. This does not apply however when different methods are utilised. I was making a joke geez. Of course I understood what was implied, I was joking about the irony that was there. You should just admit you were wrong so we can move on. There is no justification you can give to the contrary because there is no other way that it can be interpretted. The example was an example of what I do. That post came 2 (or 3?) after the intial post where I mentioned Zamorak Brews. In that post, it was specifically stated that when I personally do not take damage due to a Protection Prayer, I use Zamorak Brews. That exmaple is a perfect indication of that. Why would I post that, give an example that shows exactly what I am talking about and even saying that is what I do, and then somehow illogically imply that I do not use a protection prayer personally. Your reasoning has no logical or factual basis. You seem to be wanting this to keep going for no other reason than you not wanting to admit you are wrong. As above, what you say here is incorrect. The information provided can only be incorporated to represent one logical method. Saying that isn't true is a lie. I told you my constants when doing Slayer (with regards to outfit), meaning these never change. I then told you my standard outfit. The standard is only changed when a specific criteria that was stipulated is met (although I did find one [technically two maybe, it was on the same thing] error when I read through again, I also use DFS on Scabarites for the Defense. Also on Baby Black Dragons as there is a Green Dragon present, should have been quite obvious I would). All of these together shows you know my exact outfit for each task. I tell you tasks I cannoned. If not on one of thoses tasks I clearly am not going to use a cannon no am I? I tell you the prayers used and when. Superhuman strength as a minimum implies it is either always used, or something better is (never something worse). I then say which tasks the minimum is not used, and tell you what it is changed to (although I missed one task, Piety is also used on Scabarites). I move on to the different protection prayers, where I mention each type of prayer. So now you always know what prayers I will be using. Moving onto potions now (I also found a slight error, nothing major though - when I said I always repot ever 10 minutes isn't quite true. If for example on Dagannoths the task goes for 15 minutes, I am going to use 2 doses of super set anyway. Instead of repotting at 10 minutes, I repot halfway through which results in a [slightly] higher rate of experience for no loss what so ever). It is explained where I use each type of potion. Sorry for the few errors however, nothing major though. So from that you have all the information that is required. So an exmaple is in order to prove my point. Lets says I do Scabarites as a task. Lets follow the information now given. Equipment - Constants go on. Scabarites falls under where I use a DFS which is the only change to the Standard outfit. So that means you know what I wear for this task (standard outfit but DFS instead of Defender). Cannon - It is said I use a cannon so I do (that was hard). Prayers - Superhuman strength as a minimum, but this falls under one of the tasks I use piety on, so that is used instead. It then says protect from Range is used for this task (prayers sued are piety and protect from range). Potions - Start off from Super Sets as a minimum. I am using a protection prayer, so that means I should use Brew/Super Strength and no Defence right? Not quite. I am still taking damage (as there are mages, rangers and meleers in the cavern). So therefore I stick to a Super Set. Prayer potions are used to restore prayer. The task is short so I won't need to summon a second familiar, so no need for a super restore. Tell me now what method do you think I use from that information? Ooooh I know, I must be using Blood rush while lugging a cannon around in my inventory... no thats not it. Lets see, I have a cannon, so that means I'll be using a cannon. I am wielding a Whip, so logically I am going to be using melee also (as furthur evidenced by the piety being used and the potions). So the method must be I am using a cannon whilst also meleeing! Since each one of these guys only use one type of attack, and yet I am still taking damage, it must also be a multicombat zone! See how easy that is? Nothing short of obvious in my opinion. Familiars weren't mentioned here, but I have said that many times before. If you don't know what I will use, then look back through my posts and you will find out. Used this rate earlier in my post. I also don't care about your "informal" rates. They aren't relevant in my opinion. So that would mean every single way to train combat throughout the entire game "sucks" except one? That is what you have inferred. Not to mention in the context of everything that has been posted, "sucks" is too subjective. Not quite what I meant with best but that is my fault I guess. I meant as in how would determine what is best? What do you define as a superior method? Using your definiton of efficient, then you are not "highly" efficient" when it comes to Slayer as you have inferred (as shown above). I don't skew my results like that. Nor am I going to bother editing or cropping them. I'll just posted exactly what is recorded, which ranges from me using about 10-30 seconds before I start attacking to when I stop the video after one of the NPCs is killed (not as in only one NPC total, but just when the test has gone on for a while I stop it when one of them dies). Every one so far has been within a few thousand experience of the average posted in the table, which as I have said, is more than acceptable. So yes I will post videos because they are relevant and shows an approximate rate that I attain. Although in 2 of them so far you will have to trust me as you can't count the number of kills easily. Those 2 are Aberrant Spectres, where I worked out how many I killed by using a Slayer gem and Dagannoths where my tasks was for 144 of them, I recorded the whole task.

He was obviously referring to where I showed a cannon is worth using at Bloodvelds. I had also shown earlier in the thread for Aberrant Spectres but I do not know what the end result was. Even so, I believe that number was basesd upon Qeltar's numbers, who is incredicbly inefficient. 1. Experience loss was not a factor as I recall. While the damage from a cannon resulted in less experience, due to its speed you were getting more experience overall per hour. 2. The only task I can think of where this could happen is Aberrant Spectres, and that doesn't even happen all the time. Fire giants are in the small room in the Waterfall (7 of them), Bloodvelds all die within a few squares of the cannon. Dagannoths can be killed from far out, but nearly all are killed within a small radius of the cannon (about 7 or so steps), but that is almost irrelevant as you can be almost guaranteed there will be a Dagannoth to hit on the way to the drop. Scabarites has a more open sort of area and a bigger spread of where the NPCs are, but there is always a Scabarite close enough to kill to where the drops are. Finally Suqahs, about 90-95% of them die within 2 steps of the cannon. The cannon will ocassionally kill one quite far away. However, since Suqahs generally do not even have that good of drops (including charms that only drop about 3% of the time for each colour), I never run over to see what it is let alone pick it up. So #2 is not an issue. 3. Essentially the same reasoning as above. Aberrant Spectres being the only task that this might be a problem on. Generally the distance to the next one is not that far, and since the rate with a cannon is just under 45k Slayer experience per hour with a cannon, I believe we can assume that it is negligible. 4. What does not using a cannon on other tasks have to do with speed? Reading what is in the brackets infers you meant not other tasks, but simply the banking time. However, there is no loss in speed for simply carrying a cannon nor banking one. When I get to the bank I hit the bank all button. So there is no loss for banking, no loss for getting a new task (NPC Contact), nor running to the next one. 5. Cost is a factor, correct. 6. Not true (for me anyway). On every task where I use a cannon I would already be using prayer, or in the case of Dagannoths and Fire Giants, no (protect) prayer is used anyway. So that being the case, using a cannon saves money on supplies, not the reverse. 7. Spawn time issues are essentially irrelevant. Just because you have to wait for spawns (only task I can think of is Kalphites, which I cancel anyway) does not make a cannon not worth it. You are killing the Kalphites much faster and overall getting a much faster experience rate. Now this is where I have to disagree. You are utilising inefficient methods for Slayer and resulting in a much lower rate of experience. How can you really say you being efficient if you utilise inefficient methods? Your speeds at the Abyss are irrelevant. They have no bearing on how you perform on Slayer. Hypothetically, lets say you are right and that a cannon was not worth using at 400k (in no way am I implying you are correct, I still know you are not), it was apparently accordig to you, only out by a little bit. Are you trying to say that you cannot make over 400k per hour? I have seen you in Help and Advice forum saying you can get 825k at Aviansies. That means for you, to not be using a cannon is inefficient. So no, you are not "highly" efficient as you would claim. I was pointing out that a 10% difference at Armoured Zombies is to big just to be a factor of the randomness of hits. 10 minutes is not too short for a test. It gets you a very reasonable approximation of the hourly rate. This holds true for that "complex" NPC you mentioned as I have tested that for just under 10 minutes and got within 1.5k slayer experience difference from the average rate in the table I posted. That is more than acceptable considering it is an average after all. Nor would I ever suggest to kill Kree for 5 minutes and determine a kill rate. I would suggest at least half an hour for a test in that respect. Do not misunderstand me, I know longer tests and more tests provide more accurate results. The whole idea of doing it for shorter times is to get a reasonable approximation, which is what it accomplishes. I have been through this thread the whole time, so yes I have read all of your posts (many of them multiple times when referencing them and such). That is how I know as a fact you have never given your rates for each task (experience and profit). This is furthur evidenced when you just posted how you killed Aberrant Spectres. Not I or anyone else knew you being that inefficent by not utilising the cannon. The reason why we did not know is because you have never posted that before. This is a fact. Considering I believe that would fall under "details" that should have been in the thread earlier. You are also now tyring to say banking times were "hammered out" earlier in the thread. Tell me the post number of where this is, or at the very least a page number of where the final rate for banking is. Anything less and it only goes to show that is also not in the thread. Considering if it was, you would not be constantly going on about what mine are (as you always believe you are correct, so therefore yours must be, and anything I give would have to be incorrect, right?). Err... "stuipd" isn't a typo? Which you have now done 2 posts in a row. Unless I have forgotten how to spell that word recently or that is a typo. Please do not try and say your posts made sense in the context of my post. Everything you have posted with regards to the Zamorak Brew does nothing but indicate otherwise. You have over and over misunderstood everything that was presented. Unlike you, I do not always believe it falls into the category of composers or responders fault. It is capable of being either as well as both simultaneously. I am talking about in this specific case, it is the responders fault. How could you (or anyone for that matter) interpret "An example is Aberrant Spectres. With protect from Magic on, you take no damage." this any other way than that I use a Protection Prayer and take no damage? Explain that to me. You specifcally stated you had no idea I used it, and every post on this matter has stated that I was using a protection prayer and in one case inferred that I was. Explain that to me then. What do you mean the keyword "if"? I think you are referring to where I posted this "If I am not taking damage due to a protection prayer" But I am not 100% sure. That was taken from my original response to what potions I used. So I don't see what bearing the word "if" has to try and prove your point. Again... I have always stated what methods I use to do each task. Hell, that is pretty much apparent when I tell what my outfit is for that task. What were you expecting? When I said I wear Karils and a Saradomin Sword to Waterfiends, do you think my method is use the sword or to use Ice Barrage on them? The equipment used, potions/prayers used and whether or not I cannon gives all the information needed to know what method I use. If you can honestly not work it out from that information, it falls back to above section on being idiotic. All that information was given (again) on page 68. Another question, how logn does the task take you to complete on average? Also from that, what is your average Slayer experience per hour rate? (You know, because you have never given us this rate) Feel free to explain to me how your post can be taken in other way than it being responded to as "now" and nothing given any indication to the opposite. I've got better ones. Define "Sucks". Define "Best". Hell, even determine "efficient". When I said reasonably close, it was because the rates I was getting from the test was within a few thousand experience to what the average rate in my table is. Once I have gotten videos for each task (or most at least because some may take longer before I receive), I will upload them so that you can see. I won't do it today though. I swap over to my adsl2+ internet tomorrow and download and upload speed will increase significantly. So I will do it any time after then.

If you are being sincere when you strongly disagree... then the only reason Slayer mighr be bad is because you are bad at doing Slayer (with respect to experience rates). There was never a "proven" method of adjusting his rates for Slayer. There was you saying that are correct, but there was evidence to back up that claim. The only way to see if the adjustment is correct is for Qeltar himself to use the exact same method and equipment (only difference would it would be on Slayer using a Slayer Helm and using +10% strength prayer). That is the only real way to do it because everyone has different reaction times and attention spans. Also my current personal rate for Suqahs is 44.2k to Slayer (although up to around 50k is possible). Not only that, but I have gone that bad in any task even if you multiply his numbers by 1.15. I know that, I only said that it was my belief that combat level and Slayer level affects the frequency of tasks. I don't think I've ever hard a large difference in testing but I can't be 100% sure. The point is, a 10% drop at Armoured Zombies is huge, something must have changed. No, of course I completely missed the word about. That is clearly why I looked a couple pages before and after, you know, because I didn't know it was "about" page 36. I know for a fact that you have never given your rates for each task (experience and profit rates for each). Here's the kicker. You say I have "never" given detail with my results and that you have. The only thing I am apparently missing was the banking times. If that is the case, it can be deduced that you have those rates yourself. So what are banking times then? *Laughs at the irony in the first sentence* (Yes I know it is a typo) Your responses to every single part on the section of Zamorak Brews does nothing but indicate you have misunderstood over and over. Then you tried to blame me for that. It was not a cover up, just calling it as I see it, your responses to that section was nothing short of idiotic. You can sit there and post ""your an idiot because you misread my post"" all day long if you want, the difference is you would be lieing. *Laughs at the irony with the last 2 sentences* The last 2 sentences indicated that you once again misunderstood my post. I posted this "Any lack of clarity in this case is directly your fault, as the posts were full of clarity." It clearly says "in this case". Now please explain to me how this means it is always your fault? I have never said it is either always the composers fault or the responders fault. I was pointing out in this case it was the responders fault because there wasn't exactly much room for misinterpretation. This is also where you effectively admit you misunderstood. Hell it isn't really a misunderstanding really, as there is no way it can be taken any other way. I'll quote exactly what I said: And now you are going to say you had no idea I used Protect from Magic? Lets also look at a couple of my earlier posts: Every single time it was indicated there was no damage being taken. 2/3 directly say I am using it, and the 3rd infers it. Also, feel free to explain how a Unicorn will provide ample healing when I am being attacked by up to around 7 Aberrant Spectres at any one point in time. In case you do not understand why, I use a cannon in the Pollnivneach (think I spelt wrong) well. Also, just out of curiosity, how many healing aura scrolls would you go through per task on average? So by not being nitpicky your response started with "Assuming you meant now, and that would indeed be an interesting quote". The rest of the post did not indicate that it based on "no". The very next part of the quote is "- except that it was certainly not the end of our debate, and my numbers WERE based on testing" You went straight from assuming it is "now" to saying it was not the end of the debate. That is referring to when that number was brought up earlier in the thread. I have been recording some vid's of different tests ranging from about 7 minutes to 11 or so. every single one has been reasonably close to my hourly rate. So far I have done it for Waterfiends, Bloodvelds, Gargoyles, Skeletal Wyverns and Fire Giants. I performed 2 tests for both Gargoyles and Fire Giants to try different methods.

"Some" are off? They are all way below what is possible. Not one of them is even close to a proper average rate. If you actually looked at your table there is a specific portion there that says "+15% for Prayer\Mask" - "1.15". To which you then multiplied the previous number buy. So you had already attempted to adjust for for those bonuses (incorrectly in my opinion as the exact amount of effect they have is undetermined). I mentioned this ages ago when I posted my results that the rate at which you get each task is unknown. I also said that because it is unknown I based my averages upon equal opportunity. I believe it to be dependant on Slayer and Combat level. When Zarfot went got an additonal 13.8m Slayer experience after 99, his most common task was Dark Beasts. He received them I think 33 times compared to the next lowest being in the low 20s I think. This makes sense as he already had 99 Slayer and 126 combat (which went up to 138 throughout this), so it is understandable the "hardest" assignment he would be given most often. Or something to that effect. 10% is a huge difference that can't be pinned that to length of the test, especially when you see 10% off for a 60 minute test. If you are getting 10% less experience at say Armoured Zombies, I can tell you that won't be due to it being a 60 minute test, but the mistakes you will have made during the test. A shorter test will not be 100% accurate, but it allows for the amount of mistakes to be severely lessened as you do not have to concentrate for as long. My point was if it started on page 15, how come there was no rates given on page 15? I know for a fact you have never posted a table of similiar purpose to what I have, that details experience rates and profit rates for every task. I also went back to page 36 hit "ctrl+f" and typed in your name. If they were apparently finalized, it would be in one of your posts correct? Anyway, on page 36 you only made one post that had 2 lines of text in it, so not page 36. I checked page 37, in your first post you say you get a little over 20k slayer xp per hour, but the rest of the post indicates that this posts tone was sarcastic. Next post was essentially only one line of text, nope not on page 37. Let's try 38. First post of yours on this page has no rates in it. Ahh here we are, your next post has a rate in it. However you post "~50k?" for profit so it is unlikely you are actually sure about this rate. The rest of the posts were just on herbs runs and such. Back to page 34, then checking 35 and that will sum up for being about 36 wouldn't you think? First post says you say it is about 65k with constant attention. I think it is fair to say that in this post I am responding to (on page 69) that you have indicated that it shown to be 75k. So therefore this can't be it either. Nothing else on this page, one more to go. Finally we have another rate! "65k melee\80k profit vs. 103k melee\190k profit?" Well it isn't 75k either, so that can't be it. Next post was a response to Waterfiends, saying it maxes at 60k with piety. Nothing else about a rate here. So if it apparently got finalized around page 36 to be 75k? why is it not within those 5 pages I checked? Now I will ask again (7th time?). Where are your rates located (you know, for every task, like all the detail you expect everyone else to have)? I want a Post Number not a random page number and saying it is about there. Wait so let me get this straight. I incontravertibly proved that I understood your posts and that you clearly had no clue about what I had posted, and in doing so I have only just finalyl understood you? Seriously what the hell. Your response hear again indicates you did not understand my response (don't come up with some bs that I can't underrstand yours - if there is any reason why I can't understand it would be me wondering how you can be this stupid, not the post itself). So according to you, for Zamorak Brews to work, the NPC has to have a low offense? Please explain to me how that is relevant when they cannot, i'll repeat cannot deal damage to you? At Aberrant Spectres by using Protect from Magic prayer, you cannot be hit by them. So why would they need to have a low offense? Zamorak Brews provide an additional 2 Attack Levels throughout the entire task (provided you pot at the same time as you would with a super attack, which I do). It also restores some prayer at the same time so yes, using a Zamorak Brew and a Super Strength is better than a Super Attack and Super Strength on these types of tasks. Oh please, you are going to try and put the blame on me? The lack of understanding is purely on your behalf. I have no idea how you could not understand what I was explaining. The example I posted should have cleared any possibility for a misunderstanding, but somehow you managed to miss the point entirely. That was 4 times in a row I have said that you are not taking damage, so therefore the Hitpoints loss and Defence reduction from the Brew is irrelevant. This makes for the 5th explantion, all of which have no room for misunderstanding. Feel free to also show me where I have not understood your posts here? I have understood everyone of them, but your point is invalid as I have shown 5 times now. Any lack of clarity in this case is directly your fault, as the posts were full of clarity. Don't believe me? Go quote every single one of my 4 (now 5) explanations to someone and tell them it is to explain why a Zamorak Brew should be used in place of a Super Attack. Then come back and tell us if they understood it. Your post was based on a misunderstanding, as it was "no" not "now". Your post was based on it being "now" and hence it was not worth responding the rest of it. The quote was not plucked out of context, I believe the meaning of it was quite clear that you went under the assumption that it was "now". That may be the case, but a 10 minute test is not going to give incorrect results now is it? Not to mention there is no 100% correct answer. It is an approximation of the average rate, and this is what the test would provide. I am not denying longer tests are more accurate, I am just disagreeing with your reasoning behind 10 minutes being worthless when it most certainly isn't. A 10% variance in a 1 hour test is due to the tester. You obviously had to of made some significant errors to lose out on approximately 10k experience (assuming you are referring to Armoured Zombies). If in a 10 minute test you kill 40 of a certain NPC, it stands to reason that in 60 minutes you will kill approximately 6x that amount at 240. If instead the rate for another 1 hour test was 250 kills per hour, than a 10 kill difference is a pretty small difference (4%).

That is the first time you have given a page number, and you claim it stretches from there till 40 something. The only rate you gave for Slayer on this page was 14.9k which is your rate. That was your attempt at calculating it from Qeltars numbers. Here is the original link to the picture of the table used: http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/5144/graphqe2.jpg I found a fair few errors with it and you admit you skewed the results lower. After a couple changes you got it to being 59.6k after being "adjusted" for Slayer, which I never agreed with. You cannot fully adjust those results as we never knew the extent of which the superhuman strength and Slayer helm increases the experience. Either way, all of those numbers were from Qeltars database and were not your own. Even still, you purposely took the rates from the lower end when 2 were given and took the rate for without a cannon with a rate for a cannon was provided. All of which is entirely irrelevant considering how bad his rates are in the first place. There was nothing else on that page mentioning a rate for Slayer. So if it didn't start on page 15, where is it? So i'll ask again, where can your rates be found? Not from Qeltar's database, where are yours? This time I want post numbers of your posts that actually include your rates. Post number is easily found by counting down to what post on that page, and adding it to the last number in the address bar. Then direct me to the post numbers where you show yours rates with detail. Umm what? That test was conducted with a SGS. Don't come up with bs that it would elimate the cost of prayer, it doesn't. If it is within 50k less than 400k is it still more efficient, and is not statistically insignificant. That is just another excuse you are using to try and prove your point. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thank you for proving my point! I understood what you were saying, you clearly did not understand what I was saying in both of my posts. You have just said here that Brews reduce Hitpoints and Defence as if that is a problem. That they can only be used on tasks that have low offense. Do you see the problem yet? Your an idiot if you still don't. You say I don;t understand, yet you have conclusively proven yet again that you do not. Shall I quote my post and prove it? Here it is: All of these prove my point. I am not taking damage from the NPC so therefore the damage received from the Zamorak Brew is irrelevant. I am not taking damage from the NPC so therefore the Defence reduction received from the Zamorak Brew is irrelevant. Do you understand now? So please stop accusing me of misunderstanding when I haven't and you have over and over. I have to restate it in a different manner as you seem unable to comprehend it in the previous manners used. The fact that you asked this question proves once again how little you pay attention. As I have said over and over, the only thing that was made up was the Slayer rate which at the time I had believed is easily possible. At the time I had also stated that I believed higher was possible (and indeed it as as evidenced over and over). I never said any other rate was made up, the reason why is because none of the other rates were made up? Do you understand now? Yet I have never seen your rates, and you just showed how contradictory you are: Does that not mean you knew I responded all along? And that you made up the fact that I did not? Test is better than no test is it not, therefore a test is not worse than useless. 10 minutes allows for a reasonably accurate rate that can extrapolated to an hour. It would not be out by more than 5% either way. I also never suggested that all tasks could be completed in 10 minutes (although Scabarites can depending on task number). In either case, 10 minutes was only an example. Still have no idea where your rates are exactly so I won't add my banking times yet.

Didn't I just ask you to stop making excuses? If they are really there, tell me exactly where to find it, I will then re-read the background parts to relate. There is no valid excuse you can give as to why not. You really need to stop saying I provided no information with my rates. I gave a plethora of information, most of which you didn't even read (as was evidenced earlier where I showed you hadn't read it). The only information that you accused me over and over of not giving was banking times, which I didn't have. So yes they are helpful, but you continue to make up excuses and act as if mine are invalid (when we all know they are not). If I ever agreed upon it was only due to you being too stubborn to change it. Zammy Mages are better than Saradomin Mages as they are closer together (and boosts KC by 60 apparently). It does not reduce the experience per hour however. Killing 240 Sara Mages is the equivalent of 272 Zamorak Mages, and yet since I get 300 it shows that Zamorak Mages are much more efficient. "Claim" is the wrong word. That word infers that I have no proof or evidence, and yet I do. I have posted it many times throughout the thread, how about you look for it and you will see I am correct. The ones near Kril are the closest spawns I know of. There are 3 spawns all within I think about 6 steps of each other (as in the furthest 2 are that many spaces apart with one inbetween them). They have very low Defence which only adds to the killing speed. Why don't you actually test it yourself instead of making 'claims' that mine are wrong. The point I am showing is that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the results with them when I posted them. That means at that point in time, Slayer was shown to be incontravertibly (one would think as there was nothing wrong) more efficient than Armoured Zombies. Using current prices means it is 578.56k profit per hour. There is also the reverse for other tasks. Over the course of the 3 tasks of Nechryaels I have done, my Rune Boot drop is currently 1/242.5 (as I had only received 2). I think we can all agree that the drop rate of these boots is closer to 1/125 which means the profit rate in the table is lower than expected. Lower by approximately 40k. I had purposely lowered my Black Dragon rate also. That profit rate is based on once my inven fills up I no longer pick up the Green Dragonhide/Bones (I kill it inbetweent he spawns of the Baby Blacks, my Geyser also does a good job on them). If I were to bank I would lose a fraction of the experience rates, but the profit rate would jump enormously. Either way, the higher profit on the Mages essentially compensates for these things (undercompensates really as the rate would increase by well over 100k). Qeltars have been shown over and over to be much lower than what is easily possible to attain. For example his rate for Bloodvelds of 107 per hour compared to me getting 199 (the 199 wasn't on Slayer either). His rate for Saradomin Mages is only 169, when even you say you get 240 (his were off Slayer, but that is a huge difference). For Zamorak Mages he gets only 190, a Slayer Helm will not cause a 110 drop. Skeletal Wyverns he only gets 41, I get just over double that. Abyssal Demons (on Slayer) he gets 112, I get 143. Black Demons he gets 98 (off Slayer), I get 147 (on Slayer). Are you noticing a pattern here? Shall I continue? I remember someone saying this in the thread, it was along the lines of "Qeltars rates go over a mile but are only an inch deep". So while he may have tested alot of different NPCs, the amount of testing on each is too small. As for yours, I do not know what is wrong with them as I have yet to see yours. I also do not skew my results to prove my point, I am perfectly capable of doing so without skewing them (as evidenced by my current Slayer rates). :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I went back and read my test, just goes to show you didn't or have "accidentally" forgotten it. You never conclusively proved that a cannon was inefficient. The test showed that I got 199 kills per hour without a cannon and 395 with. Almost doubling the speed. The cannonballs used was 2,238. With a cannon to get 99 kills only takes just under 30 minutes and uses 1,127 cannonballs in that time. They currently being worth 188 means for a cannon to be efficient requires you make over 427k. However that is not all. Because with a cannon the task does not last an hour you save money on supplies. Back when I posted this it was worth approximately 42k saved bringing it down to 385k being required. There is also the fact that you would get the exact same amount of drops, but half the time frame, thereby doubling the money gained from drops on an hourly basis. It was about 50k I posted, and we are now down to 335k. Finally you complete the task quicker, and hence more money is gained due to faster accumulation of Slayer points. While I am not sure if I agree with how I did it back then, it will still reduce the profit rate being required by even more. So yes, a cannon is more efficient than no cannon on Bloodvelds as long as you make over 335k per hour. you never actually disproved this. You complained that I apparently forgot that I would get less experience, which I than proceeded to prove overall on an hourly basis you get more experience per hour. That was the only NPC I actually tested myself, and to be honet, none of Qeltars rates can really be utilised for comparison as we know his rates are so far off. Someone can't read... I use Zamorak Brews and Super Strengths. So the Strength boost remains the same and you get 2 extra Attack Levels. As I also explained, the Defence drop and Hitpoints damage is irrelevant. An example is Aberrant Spectres. With protect from Magic on, you take no damage. Hence damage and defence from the brew is irrelevant (you heal naturally). There is also the small prayer restoration. So you just proved how much you don't pay attention. Again you show how little you pay attention. Did I say I made up every rate? No I did not. I stated and I have never said differently that the rate for Slayer I gave earlier in the thread was based on this two intial assumtpions. So either pay attention and stop making up bs to try and prove your point. It is also more evidence that you need to make up things in order to prove a point. That is definately an odd way to show you weren't assuming "now" isn't it? Also, to what are you referring to when you say I should respond to that post. I did respond to it. I know what is in the thread, I know you didn't prove them inefficient. If you really did, how about you direct me to where your proof can be found? I am not looking for something that isn't there. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: It was your idea. I agree to go with your idea and all of sudden nope, not going to happen? I have released everything I have. Nemo Dat Quod Non Habet - One cannot give what one does not have. So since that is the case, how is it a refusal? This is just another lousy excuse. All that is needed for the test is we go to a NPC where there is more than enough spawns to support 2 people with no slowing in the rate and start. The test doesn't have to go for that only, approximately 10 minutes would suffice (a test of that size is not going to be out my much). As it happens, I was on Runescape just now and I tested the Banking times, and I will supply them to you. However, I will not supply them until your first either post your rates or direct me to where they can be found exactly (do not say earlier in thread as that does not count). P.S The title has always been wrong in my opinion.

I asked you before to stop making up excuses. You quite simply refuse to post it, and the reason now is because i'll complain? Do you understand how little sense that makes? So because I am asking for it, i'll complain when I finally have it. The only thing I am complaining about is you making up excuses to get out of posting it. Those calculations are correct, but your numbers themselves are wrong. 1/125 comapred to 1/120 is such a small difference that I don't see why you bother complaining about it and need to make up reasons (such as it was agreed upon) just so that you can use it. 240 is quite simply terrible. I could get approximately 250 kills per hour without Slayer. 300 Kills per hour is my rate that I get, it is also the rate that Zarfot gets as shown in his guide. Just because you seem unable to get it, does not make it so for everyone else. I use the 3 spawns outside the Zamorak General chamber. You also ignore the fact that at the time of posting the boots were a different price. When I posted it with the boots at 278k, the average rate I was getting was only about 10-20k higher than if the drop profit was calculated. You can also stop complaining about me not giving banking times as I do not have them. This comes to mind: Nemo dat quod non habet. Think what you will. I know what I have posted in this thread and I did show it was efficient for a cannon if you could only make 400k per hour. Considering my profit per hour is much higher it is even more efficient. So there is no excuse for not using it. Also, those calculations themselves were correct but as you would know if you looked back, I never fully agreed with the numbers. I test I did myself proved as much. I did a test comparing Bloodvelds with and without a cannon. The results showed 3 things: 1. Qeltar (who according to you supposedly has a great testing methodology) was so far off the mark with what can be achieved. I got a pretty significant increase in kills per hour (just under 200 kills per hour). 2. It also showed (this was before the release of Armoured Zombies) that Zombie Monkies were inferior to Bloodvelds in every way. As I was getting 95.7k melee experience per hour only using superhuman strength compared to piety (the Monkies were only 100k). 3. It showed that it was more efficient to use a cannon with a profit rate of only 400k. Yes I do. Zamorak Brews are the better than Super Attack if you are not taking damage in those cases. You get an additional 2 Attack levels and it also restores a small amount of prayer. Oh please. I had never said or inferred that the rate I gave on page 8 was my actual rate. You are suggesting I am not allowed to reference something that is true but you are allowed to reference things that are not even there? That's absurd. The rates I gave regarding the Spiritual Mages is my rate (not just mine either, check Zarfot's guide again). In my experience (and according to Zarfot, who gained his rate over 13.8m Slayer experience), it appears closer to 1/125. The main problem however is you are unwilling to accept that you can't seem able to get 300 kills per hour, but that others can. When did I ever give another answer that wasn't saying I did not have them seperated? Geez. Oh right I understand. You knew it was a typo, but you based your response as if it wasn't. It is all so clear to me now. That is because the methods in this thread aren't efficient (well technically they are, the reason I say they aren't is because you are under the belief that your conclusion towards the cannon and such are correct.... when they aren't). A cannon is efficient, moreso for higher profit making. Considering you have mentioned that high levels should not have a problem making money (you have said this numerous times in other threads). The point is every method I use for training Slayer ingame is among the most efficient ways. I'm not going to not use a cannon because you are under the delusion that it isn't worth using at 400k. Especically considering it is worth it and I make well over 400k an hour. I'll be on Runescape today so if you add me then I have no objections to testing.

Then do me coutesy of reposting them, as I just mentioned. That is at least the 5th time I have asked you to repost them and you have yet to do so. It is not that difficult a request is it? Where did you prove it would have a drastic effect? I showed via drop rate of boots and kill rate that at the time of posting, it was the same result as I had. There was maybe a 10-20k increase over what was claculated, anything but significant. Oh please, everyone who has read the read (most notably should be you) that all of those questions have been answered (my banking times are not given and I have already stipulated that I do not have them, that is an answer). In my post where I introduced the tested results I explained these things, not to mention throughout the entire thread that I have always had the same answers to those questions. But just for sake so you can't make up a bs excuse again, here they are (Why I should even bother I don't know, if anything I should tell you I have posted them [which I have] and tell you to look for them just as you continue to do so. Your memory is either that terrible [in which case your certainty that you have posted your rates isn't a certainty] or you a purposely being an... well I let you think of some words that fit here.): Summons used - In multicombat zones I always use a Geyser Titan. In non multicombat zones I use a Unicorn. The one exception is Scabarites which is multi where I had utilised a Unicorn, I have since switched to the Geyser. Tasks Cannoned - Aberrant Spectres, Bloodvelds, Dagannoths, Fire Giants, Scabarites and Suqahs. I have not yet deceided whether or not to swap to using a Geyser Titan in the Chaos Tunnels for Fire Giants (slower, unsure by how much but has more profit, but not many cannonballs are really used anyway). Specific Outfits - Slayer Helm, Fire Cape, Amulet of Fury, Berserker Ring, "Barrows" Gloves, Dragon Boots are the constants that do not change. For my standard outfit I use Bandos Chestplate and Tassets, with a Abyssal Whip and Rune Defender. If I have Skeletal Wyverns or Mithril Dragons the Defender changes to a Dragonfire Shield, also for Miths I switch to a Leaf-Bladed Sword (better than Whip for this task). If I have Gargoyles, I use a Saradomin Sword, same as with Waterfiends but I use Karils for them. I use Proselyte on tasks where I am using constant protect prayers (except Wyverns and Miths). On Spiritual Mages I use Zamorak Robe Legs instead of Proselyte. Finally I always use a Saradomin Godsword for specials, except on Miths where I use a DDS. Prayers - Superhuman is used as a minimum on every task except for three. On those three I use piety, those tasks are Waterfiends, Mithril Dragons and Skeletal Wyverns. Protect from Magic is used on Spiritual Mages, Suqahs and Mithril Dragons. Protect from Melee is used on Black Demons, Bloodvelds and Skeletal Wyverns. Protect from Range is used on Scabarites. Potions - No matter what I use, I re-pot every 10 minutes. Super Sets are used always. If I am not taking damage due to a protection prayer, I do not use Super Defence. If that is the case, I also use Zamorak Brews. Prayer Potions are used to restore prayer and very rarely I might have 1 Super Restore with me (to restore prayer in place of 1 Prayer Potion, but to also restore Summoning so if my familiar runs out I can summon another). I should not have to answer these questions again. Oh please give it up, it wasn't adjusted downwards to please me. The kill rate that I get is around 300 per hour, just because you seem unable to get this, does not mean other cannot. I ahve always said the drop rate is about 1/125, it is clsoe to that in Zarfot's guide I believe. Only goes to show you must have 'accidentally' (by that I mean purposely) missed my table I posted. Not to mention Zarfot also gains over 30k per hour. Please explain how a drop of 8k is typical? Typical of who? Chatting results in no time lost. I ahve always talked to my friends whilsts slaying and it has never caused a drop of 1k, let alone 8k. What would you be in away from the computer in the first place? Yet I have stated over and over (which you cannot seem to comprehend), that I did not log the amount of every single type of drop I received. I logged the profit of each trip. This argument on your side is petty. It is essentially "Did you log every drop received?" I answer "No" You respond by saying "Did you log every drop received?". Do you see the problem? It was a typo, it was meant to be "no" not "now". Again I ask "What numbers?" The number were based on those two intial assumptions which are inferred in that post if you understand it. Your replies thus far indicate you aren't as efficient as you would have everyone believe. In this post you mention you have never heard of anyone getting over 19k Slayer experience per hour, that is pretty much proof to this fact. I have shown my rates already. I am not able to do this as you would suggest. Uni restarts for me next Monday, and that continues on for the next 7 weeks to when I then have a 4 week break between sessions. While I can be on during those times, I would prefer to complete and revise my Uni work as it is more important to me at the moment. I could do it within the next few days possibly however.

This has just about hit pointless. Your rates are never mentioned in this thread. You refuse to post them here to show us what your rates are, and as such the only possible conclusion is that you do not have them. Don't come up with some bs excuse about not "spoon-feeding" the other people (or whatever it was you said). I have been with this thread the entire time, the least you could do is to post them now (or repost if you are correct, but I doubt). Also, do not make up things (again) about what I did or did not say. The results you posted from Qeltar's database were his results alone. I found that in the thread and saw the picture of the table again as well as my response. If you did the same you would realise I never agreed with the numbers, but I did agree the calculations themselves were correct. Now what does that mean? It means that the calculation was correct (such as 100*X=100X), but the numbers were not (meaning the number represented by X is incorrect). I had answere all the questions you asked. You keep mentioning that I hadn't seperated the drops. I have proved that for Abyssal Demons and Spiritual Mages that there would be no change if I did. None of the other tasks have rare drops with that large of a significance. Still the point is, that only applies to profit. You cannot deny that the experience rates are correct. They incontravertibly prove that you get more combat experience (and overall) when compared to Armoured Zombies. Therefore Slayer does not 'suck'. This means if your point all along was for the reverse argument, then that condition has been met and the thread was actually finished about 2 months ago. See above, already proven it is not needed to seperate. Either you are an idiot or blind. I have mentioned banking times many times. I have said over and over that I have not timed it (zomg!!!! that's mentioning it!!!!!!!.... :roll: had to add that). How can I add something which I do not have.... oooh ooh I know, I know, i'll make it up like you so often do. And yet, I proved I could get a kill rate of 300 earlier in the thread. The drop rate is between 1/100 and 1/150, I used the median of 1/125. So yes that was all correct. yet we have never heard anyone with maxed melee stats also get this rate. Explain to me what you could possible do in your "laid-back" state that drops the Slayer experience per hour from 30.8k to 11.25k. That is a 63% drop. Again, I have shown it is not needed in this case. Seriously now, are you that stupid. I am pretty sure I even explained when I first posted it that I only gave the total profit. I am not playing or acting dumb in any way. Go to page 8, 18th post. Here, i'll even quote it for you: See how I said "believed" and how I brought up the 65k? It infers that there was now testing. See how that works?

As I has mentioned months ago when I first suggested that as a possible rate I explained that it was not actually tested on. It was based on the assumption of 22.5k Slayer experience per hour and 65k melee experience per hour, from that it was determined to be 12.5k Ranged and 21.7k Hitpoints. Your rates were based on testing? You have never once posted your rates, so either post them now or stop saying you have. The only thing that comes close was at one point (in the middle of the thread I might add, so this was after my proposed rate), that you decided to log data for a tasks. The only result you came back was a picture of an excel spreadsheet for Greater Demons. You did that only once (or was it twice for the Greaters? Unsure). One task is not an average for Slayer (those are your words which you have replied to many people). So that means that one task of Greater Demons only is invalid. Yah for the smiley :roll: . Not once have you mentioned that rate of 75k. The easiest way I can prove that at the moment would be to point out if that were the case, why would the debate have continued on as only 65k instead of 75k? Even furthur showing your hypocrisy (and arrogance), where is the detail that others must submit but you do not supply for yours? I have tested my rates, there are no mistakes and they come with a fairly high degree of accuracy. So I do have numbers to argue with. You need to stop saying that I just "threw it out there", as that was not the case (all the evidence I posted earlier supports this). That column is the average profit per hour across every task I had done for that specific NPC. Those numbers are the drop profits so seriously, what the hell is the problem? You ask for drop profits, they are given, but since they are given, they are wrong? Yea ok... I wouldn't exactly call Crystal Keys rare, maybe uncommon. The rate for Spiritual Mages I posted was 685k I think. Based on a drop rate of 1/125 and the kill rate of 300, you would expect to get 2.4 Dragon Boots per hour. That correlates to a 571.2k net gain on simply the Boots alone. As I recall, the other drops cover the cost of supplies and profit slightly (about 10k I think it was). That means it would be approximately 581k profit per hour, about a 100k difference. However, this number isn't quite right. The Boots had dropped in price and at the time of my posting were 278k I believe. Using that number and adding the additional 10k is a profit of 677.2k, so my number wasn't exactly inaccurate when I posted it. What other tasks are supposedly being thrown off by 'rare' drops? Unlike what you may think, I am not that stupid (couldn't think of a better way to put that). I knew you were referring to the first post. You had mentioned that you still maintain the belief that 45k per hour is the standard. An opinion only exists because the person who came up with it had a reason to come to that conclusion. An opinion is nothing more than someones interpretation of results, two people can see the exact same data and yet come to different conclusions. There is always a reason for why they come to those conclusions. Although to be honest, I don't recall seeing where I posted that I needed you to justify your opinions. As for facts, let me quote someone who you hold an immeasurable amount of respect for (was thinking of a different word but it just wouldn't quite come to me): In case you have not realised, that quote is from you. So according to this it can only be interpretted as any facts I provide need to be justified, any you provide (although you have yet to give any towards a Slayer rate) need no justification and are automatically correct. That is arrogance and hypocrisy. Also, don't tell me to go back and read your posts. I have read all of them and always base my reply off what you post. You however quite often misinterpret and do not properly read my posts. Like on page 53 when I posted my results of my test and you asked a question in which the answer was clearly indicated already. You then asked another question which was also already indicated (you even said you looked back through my post twice and never found it, clearly you either lied, or simply and more likely do not always read my posts). Finally, after all this time, you still have not posted your results for Slayer. If you lost it as you say, do not keep saying you can compare them to mine when yours do not exist. If they are in this thread as you say, find them and you can direct me to where they are. I cannot prove they are not in the thread to you, I can prove it to myself by looking throug it (by I already know they are not there). The only way you can prove it to yourself is to look through the thread and find them yourself if they are there. If they are not (which is the case), it only goes to show that I was right all along that they were never there and that you have never once posted your results in the thread. To reiterate, look through the thread and find the results if they are there.

No calculations were not based off of testing. I never claimed that that was my actual rate or that I had tested it. As you would suggest, how about you go back and actually read my posts (it should be in the earlier posts of mine, possible page 6-10 maybe, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you). I have mentioned dozens of times throughout the thread that it was never my actual rate and have also said I believed my actual rate would be higher. The fact that you are even arguing about the rates I posted that were tested is odd. Tested rates > made-up rates are they not? You said so yourself (somewhere on one of pages between 54-59 or so I think) that while profit cannot be accurately gained from a small amount of tasks, but a reasonably accurate rate for the experience can be gotten from a smaller number of tests. Mine range from 1 for Fire Giants, 3 is the next lowest, all the way up to 9 for Abyssal Demons. So of course these rates are pretty accurate. You say you used your rates in conjuction with qeltar's to come up with something, that was however never agreed upon. One reason, you have yet to actually give your rates. Not to mention qeltar's rates are so incredibly far off from accurate (one test of up to one hour, some as short as 30 minutes, using inefficient methods with inferior equipment - so bad I could probably 'not pay attention', receive a 60% drop in experience and still get a better rate :lol: ). Oh please, you need to stop making excuses. There is no actual requirement for an argument, evidence (data) is certainly advantageous however. Also feel free to show were I haved "whined" about the difference in totals. You seem to be using any excuse you can think of to get out of actually going into the difference. Even still, lets go through what you said I was missing: The picture of the table I posted is a listing of rates from each task. Same table, right-most column. Which I have mentioned several times I have not done. This is the only real thing I am missing, even still not even you can deny the rate still far exceeds Armoured Zombies. Which I have already shown are not that inaccurate. Calculating the average money based on the drop rate of Whips with the kill rate per hour resulting in the same profit per hour as my current profit being proposed in the table. That is all that I have apparently missed. Two of them I have provided so those are irrelevant. One of I have already shown is almost irrelevant (might be off slightly in the profit, but so far it seems to difference is minimal). Finally, the last is banking times. They would reduce rates, but nothing significant enough to lose out on about 50k experience to make it lower than Armoured Zombies. Read the following quotes: You say you have them so therefore a comparison can be made. You then say you lost them when you reformatted (you are some type of IT professional - remember you saying a few times, it seems unlikely you would forget to back-up the information on your computer). You aren't so much as "admitting" it, but those quotes more than qualify that you were indeed lieing or at the very least purposely misleading me. Also as I have mentioned, your rates cannot be found earlier in the thread as you never posted them earlier in the thread. You seem adamant they are there, so why don't you find them and direct me to them (as I mentioned, I will not be looking for something that is not there). The only things I can think of now are these assortment of smileys; :? :x :roll: :wall: #-o :^o :shame: -.- Should be pretty obvious how each of these apply. You are doing nothing but being hypocritcal and a liar. No need to justify? Yet you expect everyone else to justify theirs? Arrogance if I do say so myself. Where are your rates in the first place? Where is your detail? Where are your explanations? You want a factual debate, but will not use facts because what.... they are beneath you to do so? Zierro's post (the quote from bobthesock and what Zierro said also) explain very well the attitude you have at the moment.

There were many calculations done but not tests. All those calculations were based on those numbers which had no real basis to them. I don't see how you can't understand what I am talking about here. The intial comparison was Zombie Monkies to Slayer, It was compared to Slayer as having gotten that 141.7k per hour overall experience. Calculations =/= testing is what I am trying to get at. Then you continue to ignore my posts, as I did answer every question. Listing of rates... is that table not the average rate for each task that I have been getting? I made up that table with the intent of it being an average so that is not a problem. Average profit's were given, and yes I did mention more testing would provide a more accurate average. However as I have shown with the example of Abyssal Demons that my profit compared to calculating the profit based on drop rate and kills per hour is pretty much identical. I have mentioned several times that I had not timed banking inbetween tasks as that was when I inputted the data I had just accumulated. Did you not read through all of my previous post? I stressed this point that you kept asking for it and my continuing replies that it had not been done. So no, I did not just throw out a "total XP number and expect to debate that". How on earth you can even say that after all the evidence I gave in the previous post, which does not nothing but show you are wrong in this respect is beyond me. You didn't even ask any questions here. So you admit you have been lieing? How did you expect to make a comparison if there is nothing to compare it to? How about you look for them for once. I know for a fact they are not there so I have no intention of wasting my time looking. The only thing you have posted that even comes close was a picture of a table compiled from Qeltar's database. Those are not your rates and it has already been clearly established that Qeltar's rates lack an ideal degree of accuracy. So no, you never posted your rates and if this is how you are going to keep thinking of it, I can only surmise you don't actually have any results and by saying it was already posted you can get away with not posting anything. 45k is anything but standard. We have yet to see anyone who has agreed with that rate, and since that is the case how can it be a standard? There is no way to fully define what is meant by not paying attention. I am fairly certain that if I were to "not pay attention" that my rate would not drop by 18.3k Slayer experience, which is a 60% drop. I cannot think of anything that would cause a drop of that magnitude (and no, "not paying attention" is not a reason that can be used, it is too open ended and provides no insight). However, as I have also mentioned, the rate you have given for Armoured Zombies is a max (of which we also have yet to hear of anyone else who has attained that rate). With Slayer, the rate I am getting is not a max. This only makes Slayer even better in comparison to Armoured Zombies than what it already is.

This one happened a while ago and I missed the starting part of the conversation. It started out me being at Blue Dragons using my Crystal bow. The other guy was upset that I was too fast or something which meant I must have no life. Can't remember his combat level but it was below 111 as he couldn't one-click them. I admit I sort of kept him going, but it was funny : . Edit: It came out a bit fuzzy, not sure why.

Note this is a long post, I tried to gather as much evidence as I could to prove my point. I have no problem debating, but I would prefer the debate remained about things that actually happened. There was no considerable amount of time invested by you, me or anyone for that matter for the rate that was being described in my post. That rate I made up on the spot somewhere wihin the first 20 pages I believe it was. It was nothing more than an assumption of getting 22.5k Slayer experience per hour while also getting 65k melee experience per hour (that is all). The next assumption was that the remaining Slayer experience was to Range (from a cannon), that makes 6.25k Skayer experience is gained via a cannon resulting in 12.5k Range experience per hour. The amount of Summoning experience was determined by using a ratio of about 0.9:1 of sum:slay experience, resulting in 20k. That gets 141.7k overal experience approximately. Those were all based on those 2 intial assumptions, there was no testing. You tested Armoured Zombies and got the rate of 103k, not Slayer. As I mentioned a few times already, you have yet to provide your numbers for Slayer. Not once throughout the entire thread have you posted them. The second part of that quote is almost funny, except that it shows you purposely ignore results (which is ironic as you wanted proof Slayer is better, those rates show it is better, and yet the thread continues - gives credence to my belief the thread is only continuing for the purpose of a debate rather than the topic itself). The table of rates I posted was not randomly compiled as you suggest. That you can even say there was no explanation or details is beyond ridiculous. When I posted it the first time, you asked questions about it I answered. Later on I mentioned my table of results, and you know what you posted? Pretty much just "All you've done since then is randomly thrown total XP numbers into the thread every now and then with no explanation or details." So I asked what was it that I had supposedly not explained the first time (even though I did answer all your questions). I proceeded to answer those and yet, apparently I have not given one detail or explantion on them? *Points to post in italics in the parenthesis above* I deceided to search for my name after the post where you had quoted me from. Two pages later I brought up the different and tested rates: [hide=My Quote] [/hide] That was the first time I had brought them up, I don't see how you can say there is no detail or explanation. I explained which prayer I used as well as which tasks where I used a cannon. I mentioned which tasks I cancelled/skipped. I even went through the difference in the rates between the made up ones and these tested ones, I even explained how I worked out the Summoning rate. This brings me to your reply to it, which only goes to show you didn't even properly read my post: [hide=Your Reply] [/hide] You actually asked what tasks I used a cannon on. I mentioned that in the second paragraph. You even say the combat rates are "more in line" which only seems to infer there was nothing wrong with that aspect of it. It was explained in my response. Your next response was similiar in such a way that you asked something that I had already mentioned in my original post. Finally after I actually posted a picture of the table you responded with: How can this be taken in any other way but that you agree with the results (except the profit)? You never asked for any more details or explanations about what I posted then. Anyway, the next time I posted was on page 49 to reiterate what I has posted before so that others may see. Want me to remind of you of what your reply was? Here it is: [hide=Your Reply] [/hide] See the dilemma here? Waiting for details.... to what questions? If there were missing details you would have asked the first time round, but did not (note that the questions you asked the first time round had nothing to do with details or such, they had already been answered). my reply to that went over all this also. It isn't till your next post you actually ask for details in which I hadn't already shown. The questions were: [hide=Details] [/hide] Even still parts of these questions were already answered. Either way, I answered them in my next post. Your next questions were: [hide=Questions] [/hide] I answered these also. My response answered the specific part about the drop rate and profit to what I believe was more than adequate. However i'll add more detail here. Assuming a 1/425 drop rate of a Whip, I am killing about 143 per hour. That is approximately 0.336 Whips per hour, which translates to 504.7k per hour (with Whips at 1.5m exact, not sure of exact price as I have not logged onto rs to check the ge, and the ge database on the main page only says 1.5). Add on to that the value of the other drops which ranges from 150-225k in my experience makes the profit rate I was getting pretty close. Your response simply stated "You stated that you had added in the banking\task obtaining\running times; I was interested in what numbers you had used." (there was more in the post, but this was the only part that applied to this part of the discussion). I didn't respond to that because I believed I had explained it as best I could. I had never stated, inferred or any other word you can think of that applies, that I had added in the banking time. I had mentioned this exact point so many times and if it didn't sink in then. Either way, you made no more posts relating to my rates. Back to the first quote I started off replying to, I believe I was up to here: Post my details.... As I have proven just now. I answered all the details you had asked about. However this is where it got me interested "and I'll start comparing to mine". Please do! You have yet to show what your rates are, I have already shown and backed up every single rate I have posted. You seem to be unable or unwilling to post yours. So in short, post your results then. This is where you are wrong, they have read the first post. In a thread this size the most you could expect a person to read through is the first post (possibly the whole page) and the last page (and possibly a few pages preceeding that one). Since the thread gets longer, those posts will no long get read at the back (which is now part of the middle). The only constant is the first post/page. That is what must be updated then. many of the replies have been about saying Slayer is not 50k/h which I am sure you agree with is not the case. So get rid of that and update it to what you actually think the rate is.

There inlies your problem. You should know well enough by now that those numbers were not even based on tests, those came from somwhere within the first 20 pages and were made up on the spot as I recall. Also remember at the time they were made up I had always said I believed it was much higher (and indeed it is). I had since tested and logged many tasks which I posted on this thread. There was a drastic increase in experience and those are the number I am using. I do not agree with that statement of mine and you are foolish to think that I do and to purposely ignore the updated information. You are quoting something of mine 24 pages ago, over 2 months ago. It would be the same as if I now went on and on about comparing it to Zombie Monkies. You believed what you had posted back then. Me doing that, and what you are doing now is exactly the same thing. I no longer agree with that statement I had made (and I am pretty sure you don;t believe Zombie Monkies are better than Slayer, I would hope not anyway). To summarise that, I never simply started spouting random numbers and using them. I tested my numbers and posted them here many times. The rates I am using and sticking with are 195k experience per hour with approximately 107k profit per hour (or slightly higher). That is the whole point of updating the first post. In doing so people won't simply barge in and renew obvious points because those points are no longer there. P.S. I was about to begin posting again because I have a bit of a holiday at the moment from Uni :

I didn't misinterpret. "Best" is a subjective term. You saying that Slayer is not the best experience may be the case for you, but not for everyone. If it is simply a matter of efficiency comparing only profit per hour and experience per hour, then I don't recall Armoured Zombies being shown to be more efficient anywhere. More importantly you mention the rates. I asked a question and received no answer. What are the rates for Slayer you are using for comparison? (In bold so you don't miss it). As I mentioned before, you haven't actually supplied any rates for the overall rate of Slayer. The main argument has changed a few times throughout the thread. It was originally about Zombie Monkies, which was proven worse. It only continued due to the release of Armoured Zombies, which in my opinion I have proven worse also. I get approximately 194,793 overall experience per hour whilst doing Slayer (164,023 of which is purely combat experience). I also get approximately 106,656gp profit per hour (although this is still lower than expected, needs more testing). These rates are not even the maximum. I am not at maximum stats, I don't use piety on all tasks, I am not 99 Summoning and do not have access to the best fighting familiars, I even cancel a couple tasks which if done would raise my experience rate as it far exceeds the average. The rate it is being compared to for Armoured Zombies is the max, that rate cannot get any better. Clearly we have not reached an agreement after all. If we had you would already realise Armoured Zombies is inferior to Slayer. I know the rates I have been using, and have stated them many times. You have not stated what your personal rates are nor even mentioned the rate you are using as comparison. I've mentioned before, you really should update the first post. I'm not talking adding in every detail throughout the thread. Simply slight changes to allow others to be able to provide valuable input. A couple examples of some easy to see changes is to remove all the information about Zombie Monkies and replace it with Armoured Zombies. Update the experience rates you have been using for Slayer as comparison. You could possibly clarify the argument you are trying to make also. These small but important changes might take 5-10 minutes (more depending on how much information you wish to add), but allows for more people to get up to speed and allow the debate to continue. P.S You got my name wrong again #-o :lol:

There have been many replies since I last posted, and more than a few annoy me considerably. Most of those come from either compfreak847 or pureprayer. The reason why is along the same lines for both. Many replies that compfreak847 has made over the past few pages are essentially about the rates. Whenever someone posted their rates (while I admit not comprehensive are still valid) you have mentioned a fair few times something to this effect: This part is incredibly flawed in such a way that you are grouping all the people together. By saying "upset", you would be meaing to disprove the current rates given (or something to that effect)? Here in lies the problem, that is impossible. You propose someone should do "hundreds or thousands of hours" of testing in order to simultaneously disprove you, me, Qeltar and Zarfot. Please tell me i'm not the only one that can see the flaw here. If he were to disprove your rates, that more or less means it proves mine. The flaw is you have grouped together under the false pretence that they are the same. It comes down to I have shown my side which shows Slayer as good. Zarfot and Qeltar aren't arguing their point, but Zarfot's guide shows that Slayer is good. Then there is you. This brings me to my next point. You have also mentioned many times something to this effect: Now I am not so sure we were posting in the same thread. I don't recall it ever being proven worse. More to the point, you have never even showed us your rates. I mean detailed rates which you expect everyone else to give but have not done so yourself. Just so there is no misunderstanding here, you say it was proven worse. Worse compared to what? Armoured Zombies? Sure you have given a rate there (which I have to point out is essentially a max, whereas the rates I have supplied for Slayer are still a fair bit from max), but what are you even comparing it to? Obviously not the rates I have supplied, otherwise you would realise the Slayer is more efficient than Zombies. That brings up this point: Is this not a matter of interpretation? You require facts and yet you supply this phrase which is purely subjective in nature. How do you define 'best'? Is what is best for you best for someone else also? There are really only 3 key elements for determining what is best however, how much of each element taken into account goes according to the person. The elements are simply fun, profit and experience (simple enough). As such, there can never be a 'delusion' that Slayer is best. It may be best for some and not others (I fall into Slayer is best for me category). While pureprayer did post this, it isn't so much the person that is the problem. It is the type of response indicated here. Pureprayer has been posting in this thread for a long time now and yet still manages to skip over any and all 'facts'. "Bad xp/money" is subjective and not factual (the word bad is the subjective part). The next part of the quote... I can't seem to think of the right word for it, but it does show pureprayer is being (in at least some way) sycophantic. I say this because he is under the "delusion" (here is where that word goes : ) that compfreak847 has never been proven wrong in this thread. That is utter nonsense. The next part of the quote is quite contradictory. Like I asked compfreak847, i'll ask you. What are your rates for Slayer? Or at the very least what do you think they are (incase you haven't tested it)? In other words, what is the rate you are using to compare Slayer to the rest? Finally, i'll bring up my opinion here. Overall from the posts I have read, I can only surmise this thread is a fake (i'll explain). I've noticed it for some time but i'll explain why now. I believe the true purpose of this thread was never that Slayer was good or bad, but actually just compfreak847 wanting a debate (as everyone knows he likes them). The reason I bring this up? Over and over so many facts have been supplied to disprove the original sentiment that Slayer sucks based on the premise that it is bad experience (which is subjective anyway). Compfreak847 has also posted that this was intended as a reverse arugment. Meaning that he said it was bad in order for others to prove it was better. It has been shown to be an efficient means of raising combat whilst gaining profit many times. Zarfot's guide also shows without a doubt (one would think) that Slayer is anything but bad. That is how I got to the conclusion that thread only really exists in order satiate compfreak847's want of a debate. P.S The reason I haven't posted much or been on Runescape is because I am going to Uni now. What little time I do have free I prefer to do other things. P.P.S. I have debated with you for that amny pages now, the least you could do is learn to spell my name correctly. It isn't that difficult.

Morningrise333 made a great response but there is a few things I would like to add. Just as you accused him of making up numbers, how are doing anything different here? Have you actually every tested a comabt familiar? 3k boosts.... clearly you haven't. About Kalphites, I mentioned a similar example about Black Demons on the previous page. Yes spawn speed is a limiting factor, but faster kills will make the overall experience gained per hour greater than without a familiar. Also where was a combat familiar ever proven to have an unnoticeable affect for Spiritual Mages? You are being so incredibly subjective trying to force your opinions as facts. Your responses quite clearly indicate you have not tested them if you believe that is the rates. The Geyser Titan was getting me about 8k Range experience per hour in addition to what I was getting from meleeing. That is still a noticeable affect, and that is where a combat familiar has the least effect if anything. Black Demons, where did the extra 40k cost of prayer potions come from? Doing a task faster = less prayer used = less prayer pots used = money saved, not expended. I was getting about 12k increase in those supposedly cramped spaces, and again I'll mention that taverly dungeon is not cramped at all. Your argument here is flawed so much. Faster kills means a quicker death.... you are calling that a bad thing? It is an increase in experience that you can not get without the use of a combat familiar. It seems I was confused about Taverly :lol: , my mistake. I haven't logged in for a while and I had been thinking about ti on the basis that a cannon can be used there, but that was with Range so it acts like a multicombat zone. Ignore everything I said about Taverly dungeon then. Even still, your point is still flawed. I am referring to - "My point about faster tasks makes perfect sense, as more time will be spent on non-summon tasks and less on summon tasks." That is true in part and flase in the other. Less time will be spent on tasks with a familair, that is correct. That does not make a task where you cannot use a familiar longer than it otherwise would have been though. There was 9 tasks used for Abyssal Demons not 2 or 3, and as I mentioned the drop rate isn't that far off what is commonly perceived as the drop rate. Please show me where I ahve ever said or inferred that I would always get a Whip every task or 2 every task. Note that if I had, the profit rate would be higher than what it is, making it so there is no-way I could believe that to be the case if it hasn't happened like that yet... You seem to be also under the assumption that the profit at Abyssal Demons comes only from the Whips. I was averaging around 200k per hour on tasks which I did not get a Whip on. "Since you added in the timings afterward, what are your times for banking\receiving each tasks?" What do mean by saying I added in the timings afterwards? I never excluded them. Now I have to add this :wall: . How many times I have already mentioned (hell I even said so in my post when I resonded to your questions) that I have not timed the part inbetween tasks? You can't be serious in asking that over and over when I have consistently responded to the question that I have not done it as I cannot whilst inputting the data from the task. You summon will essentially always teleport to the same spot when you press call. Now when a person with intelligence notices this, they can purposely make it so it teleports in a more desireable position by altering where you character is. That was such a difficult concept wasn't it? Please explain how melee experience is 3x more valuable? I could have sworn around page 20 or something that we noticed you didn't understand what is meant by the value of experience (when we were talking about Range). If you use an efficiency calculation, melee is more efficient to get than Magic, so easy Magic experience is the better option. As Morningrise333 said, are you agreeing with us? This part - "your spending less time on a task where you have a combat familiar." Seriously, that is whole point! :wall: :wall: How do think this applies to anything bbut faster epxerience? Oh I know! Faster kills must mean that you are getting slower experience, why have I never seen this till now. Seriously though, you can't actually be trying to use that to prove your point can you? P.S Excessive use of the 'frustrated' smiley due your illogical responses.