ydrasil

Turns out its my own misinterpretation :( . I mean I knew what the XPH stood for, but I was reading it wrong. For example in cell A15, I read it as "experience per burst". When I got to cell A21 I was reading it the same way, which was "experience per hour per burst", which made no sense to me :lol: . The second "per" should have been "for" and then it makes sense to me. If that is the case, it's based on 800 casts an hour and the number in the cell is meant to be 74k instead of just 74. Since that is the case, I don't know if you have tested it but I think there might be slight mistake. You used the same amount of casts per hour with burst as with barrage. In my experience you end up using less casts of barrage per hour. I based my working on per hour, rather than per 1k casts. With the "Total" for what the pouches are worth, I used a more exact number for the cost of shards. Trading shards in you always get 70% back. That means if you traded them in an infinite number of times it becomes 7.5gp each shard (providing you bought for 25 each). Of course you can't do it that many times as the restrictions for amount of shards used per pouch and you can't receive fractions of shards (like 0.3 shards). I'll post pictures of the spreadsheet working I used: It is showing up a bit bluryy/fuzzy for me, then I realised I had saved as .bmp. So I resaved as .png but this one still looks bad. The second picture is fine however, might take a while till it updates to being clear (have had this problem before). Providing I made no mistakes, and I am pretty sure I did not (feel free to point out any if you see them), then the difference is smaller here. This would mean barrage requires 102k extra on top of if bursting is worth it. I also didn't bother with the experience per hour, but in case you are wondering, it is about 126,900 Magic experience per hour barraging. Now to me, this number seems more realistic, but wait till you see the next part :lol: . I then compared them to Waterfiends: Now either I made a mistake, which I am pretty sure I didn't, or burst isn't cheaper after all. So for me, that means barraging is worth it, but bursting is not when compared to Waterfiends (well it might still be worth it, but why bother when you have barrage?). When using the 9 Lobster spot, you shouldn't use familiars in my opinion. The lures do take longer, but that is really the only thing. The reason for that is because actually killing them will take essentially the exact same time. That is because what you hit on one lobster is irrelevant to what you hit on another, hence you average the same time to kill all, maybe slightly more due to slight increase in error from the 9 compared to 7. During the first part of luring I don't put prayer on (run up to the ladder and back). I flick it on for a moment as I pass by them heading down (that is if I can be bothered to flick it on then off instead of leaving on). I then turn it back on just as you hit the bottom where the last 2 Lobsters are. Duck into the alcove then run back, while running back I turn prayer off. So the prayer usage isn't that great really and no real need for proselyte. Trapping the level 90 Dagannoths isn't that hard really. As for it being a pain to pick up drops? I think you are trapping them in the wrong area. Where I trap them, their drops appear on a spot where the other Lobsters don't become agressive to you and won't jump up from their rock form. I have a picture of it somewhere i'll post it here. Not the best picture to show, but it was the one I used when I was showing the new Ice Barrage animation that comes up half the time. You are correct, it isn't as relaxing as the 7 Lobster spot and it is more dangerous. However, you spend less per charm at the 9 Lobster spot compared to the 7 spot. In the 7 spot, I don't lure all 7 also, only 6. Lures are alot faster and you get about 750 casts and hour for about 150 crimsons. At the 9 spot you use 650 casts for about 145 crimsons per hour. Slightly less per hour but cheaper. I don't know about barraging in the 7 spot spot though so I have no comparison.

Cost and value are the same thing in RS. An item's value is determined by the amount of GP\money attached to it, irregardless of the money you bought it for. Therefore, if that items value goes down, you have lost money. It does not matter how much you have earned with it. Many people are saying things along this line, but you mentioned it specifically so I qouted you. Put simply, this is wrong. Cost and value are not always the same thing, I tried to show you this with experience for skills in your rant but you never did manage to grasp it (although it is slightly different for skills). You may buy item X for 1mil, that does not mean you value it at 1mil though. Value is determined by how much you'd be willing to pay, not necessarily how much you do pay. Say you buy an item for 1mil, later it drops to 500k, does that mean you value that item to be worth 1mil? It may cost that, but that doesn't make its value. I have an example of this from my experience. Of the three Saradomin Hilts I have gotten solo, I only sold two of them (one for 107m and the other for 45m). The first hilt I got I never sold, it was worth 112m average price on GE at the time. To me it was not worth selling. I personally valued it higher than what was in the GE. Does that mean if in the GE it was worth 400mil that I would have sold? Not necessarily. So at its current price of 45m average, does that mean it lost value? More specifically it has dropped 67mil since I got it, does that mean I lost 67mil? You could argue my banks net value dropped by that much, but that doesn't make a good argument. I never had any intention of selling it, and I consider it priceless. I hope that got my point across. I believe this is the point Pureprayer is trying to get across. Your value of an item does not change simply because the price dropped/rose.

I believe you are referring to Inuashakent, and I believe Inu is correct. I don't see what you mean by not using any "real argument", because I don't know what a false argument is :? . You said the lowered accuracy is negligible and Inuashakent mentioned that they would have to have the defence of Chickens for that to be the case. While maybe not the best way to explain it, it is quite valid. Regardless of defence level, even on something as basic as a chicken, you will still hit less accurately. This being less noticeable on Chickens however. Most NPCs trained on and killed on a regular basis do not have such low defence, therefore making the loss in accuacy a noticeable loss. You mention theory and practice, please enlighten us to what theory this is? No theory can give you an accurate comparison unless you know the effects of each difference in question (how much the attack bonus makes a difference, same with defence bonuses). As for practice, fell free to show us the practice. Screenshots of max hits gives no indication. Performing tests is the only way. I also don't see how the SS has alot of disadvantages. As for how you responded to the SS being more expensive, you answered that yourself. This applies in all cases really. Every item can always be resold, and hence it should never be seen as a "cost" unless it is never intended to be sold. It might be two-handed, but that doesn;t instantly make it bad. "Less damage" comes down to what context you are using. It is a lower max true, but it is higher accuracy. This accuracy outweighs the slightly lower max hit and as such results in more experience per hour. This means that per hour it is "more damage". The loss in shield slot is bad, but not in all cases. A Whip and Defender has more attack and Defence bonuses than the SS, but the SS does more damage per hour on gargoyles on the crush setting. Most people do not kill dragons on a regular basis, but yes it is a loss. The SS overall is in my opinion better than the TokTz-Xil-Ak. You say you won't argue with Inu anymore on the basis of no real arguments. Inu has brought up valid questions and responses. The fact that you stop responding to valid points does give an indication that Inu is right. You keep saying in practice it is oh so good, and that is supposed to be 100% true. Show tests then. As has been said, this is less of a guide and more along the lines of simply telling people these items exists and hit this high. Your are being hypocritical here also. You refuse to provide tests and hence have nothing to defend your point. Yet you also say that Inuashakent supposedly has nothing to defend his point. This is the same as you. I have performed a test, while only one, from it there was more experience per hour with a Dragon Scimitar the the TokTz-Xil-Ak.

I read through, and from what I understand you are trying to show if barrage is worth it in comparison to burst. I'll be honest and say I have no idea what the "XPH\Burst" and the "CPH\burst" (and for barrage) are for. However, to me your end result seemed too high to be correct. Unless I got this wrong, you are showing that for barrage ro be worth it in comparison to burst you need to be able to make 422.4k per hour. That would logically mean 422.4k on top of what was required for burst to be worth it. Anyway, since to me it seemed wrong I went through and did it myself and got different numbers. My numbers were based on the 9 Lobster spot as I have more experience there but even still, there was a sizeable difference. I then introduced Waterfiends and that made my own numbers seem odd :? . So before I show what I did, I was just wondering if you could clarify what you are showing.

I don't see how I missed "your" point. I was the one that mentioned melee takes longer overall to get up than Range. What I was pointing out is that for the bulk of tasks, it is more efficient to melee than to Range, and as such you are guaranteed to get 99 in both melee skills as well as Defence. This means any extra experience you give to those skills means you lose out on the Range experience as depending on how you do each task, you may or may not get to 99 Range. I don't see the relevance of what you are trying to get across, but that just might be me misunderstanding still :? . As for the messaging, you need to stop overstating things like this. Being absorbed in a chat holds true whether you stop for less than a second to click another NPC or not. I constantly message people, but I type fast enough between each NPC that there is really no loss in typing speed. Chatting to friends outside of Runescape is only slightly different. The only difference being you need to open another window to type the message, and that window does not take up the whole screen. This means you can still see what is going on with your character. As for talking to alot of people, are you going to try to convince me that every single time you are doing Slayer you are talking to that many people? That every single time you are online you are talking to that many people? Let alone trying to convince anyone that the average person will do the same thing on an average basis? Now i'm lost. Where did the "extra 3 hours" come from? Or 12m for that matter? Maybe you misunderstood where I mentioned it changes from 14k to 11k crimsons when the other charms are counted in. I can't remember exact numbers, could be from 3,000-3,999 of a difference, that is more than 3 hours. Its from 21-28 hours saved from including the other charms. The 11k needed takes 76 hours to get. As for maxed melees... I have no idea what you are talking about? Which rate/s have I gotten with max melees... without having any melee skills at max? The average player does not have 91 Runecrafting or 90 Mining. Even most higher level players do not. Spirit mages are around 60k xp and 300k+ profit per hour. I'm not sure about abyssal demons but I've heard they're pretty good too. Maybe you should crunch the numbers like you did with the fighter torso. 287 That's averages for what I get with moderate attention, most tasks earn very little or actually lose money. If you want some number crunching look at the last 31 pages of this thread :-w This just shows my point that you need to update your first post. As has been shown over and over, 50k/h is far too low to be the average, it is more along the lines of a minimum. It is the same with profit, as it has been shown to be 135k per hour or higher. I don't see how you can still argue that you shouldn't update it. You especially can't expect everyone to read every single page of this thread, that is beyond idiocy to expect such a thing. All of your XP arguments have been hashed out in the previous 1,200 pages of replys ;) I have just one comment on the black demons: it's certainly not 100k range XP. Experiments\Yaks are, at most, 65k XP\hour - monsters with 1 defence that you don't have to bank on or get as a task, without time to get there factored in. Besides, Avansies\Chins are 160k range XP\hour, free :P Some of his arguments were false, and the others were based on the fun factor, yet again. This also shows your unwillingness to see when you are wrong, or at least show that you are being arrogant enough to believe you are always right. You gave no evidence, absolutely nothing to back you up and yet you believe you are 100% (100% because of how it is phrased) correct. The part I am referring to is "it's certainly not 100k range XP." This is where you are wrong. I'll explain why when I get to responding to Inuashakent's reply. You again bring it back to what is within the previous pages. How can you criticize someone's reply because they did not read it all. Again further reasoning for you to update the first post. Also just for the record, those "XP arguments" have been mentioned yes. However, while I have shown that they are wrong, you still do not believe that to be the case. All this does is furthur show you are incorrect in your rates currently supplied in the first post. As for his arguments being false? Or the 'fun factor' being the main point behind that post is an incorrect assumption. I'll go through each part and show why. First section has no "false statements" nor did they mention fun. Second line says that the rate of 50k is unfair, that is true. As has been shown, the average is far higher. The same is for ranged, Range is good to use on Slayer, just not all of them. So again that part is true. Third paragrah is also correct. The Abyssal Whip in nearly every case results in the best experience per hour. Since it has no agressive option using controlled is the most efficient way to train. Again with the Range, you may not get 99 over the course of 99 Slayer. Hence why you Range the tasks that are good to use Range on. I see no false aspects to this section. Fourth Paragraph brings up Black Demons (and is also the response to compfreak847 above). Compfreak847 did nothing but simply state 100k cannot be attained. With Range and a cannon you get up to 250 kills per hour which is 39,250 Slayer experience. This means the experience received ranges anywhere from 78,500 to 157,000 (former being all damage done with cannon and latter being all with Range weapon). The best way I can think of to prove 100k is possible is to try and show it is almost inconceivable to not get it. I'll do this by solving it with algebra, using the following formula: 628X + 314Y = 100,000 X represents the amount of kills by your weapon. Y represents the amount of kills by your cannon. The 628 is the amount of experience given by a kill with your weapon. The 314 is the amount of experience given by a kill with your cannon. To solve this simultaneously, we need a second equation. This equation is: X + Y = 250 Y = 250 - X This is because the amount the add up to is 250, which is the amount of kills we will have. It is rearranged to have the second line. Substituting into equation 1, and then solving gives: 628X + 314(250 - X) = 100,000 628X + 78,500 - 314X = 100,000 314X = 100,000 - 78,500 314X = 21,500 X = 68.47 Therefore Y = 181.53 Those are the values required to get 100k Range experience. The only way to get less, is for you to get less than 68.47 kills with your weapon. Keep in mind that many kills gives 43k experience (hence cannon given 57k). So unless you are saying it is impossible to get 43k experience from ranging, using Range potions and Eagle Eye prayer... there is no way to get less than 100k experience. I am unaware that the working out is simple, but I wanted to show without a doubt it is easy to get over 100k experience. Againa still on the fourth paragraph, but with the Fire Giants. It is true that it is slightly slower to Range than melee, but that was said. The difference is about 1-2k Slayer experience less per hour, which is minimal really. Fifth paragraph is based on melee experience per hour. While I will admit not all tasks are 80k or over in experience, Reded did not give a false statement as it shown by the next sentence. To furthur back that point is the Slayer experience rate for Iron Dragons. They give 19k per hour, which is 76k melee experience per hour. Skeletal Wyverns are 18k Slayer experience per hour and hence 72k melee experience per hour. Greater Demons are 19k Slayer experience per hour and hence 76k melee experience per hour. Other than Mithril and Steel Dragons, these are the slowest Slayer experience tasks there are. Steel Dragons also being 14k Slayer and hence 56k melee experience per hour, still over 50k. The sixth paragrapgh ties into the fifth which I responded to just above. The only notable thing here is the first mention of fun. Seventh paragraph has your first false statement, but it is almost negligible. It was only false by saying it is pointless, as it is about efficiency, which isn't pointless. Saying they would much rather have variety compared to the more repetitive Zombies is about fun, but something alot of people can relate to. Saying it didn't take that long long and plenty of cash is also not false. Final paragraph now. I can't comment on the 96 Summoning section because I don't know about them. Last line isn't false either. So I don't see how you can simply ignore what was said by Reded. Only one part I see is false, but that could be put down to a simple misundertsanding, and while there was the sense of fun involved, that wasn't the only thing in that post.

I can see your point, but I still think the levels of 90-99 Slayer is worth more then combat experience after 99. Yes Zombie Monkies give more combat experience per hour, but they are under no circumstances better. You go on about efficiency, the negligible experience increase at the Monkies is not worth the loss of 245k per hour. I'm not quite sure you know what significant means. 10 seconds loss out of 3600 anything but significant. Say on a task of Dust Devils where you get 108k melee experience per hour. That 10 seconds would results in the loss of approximately 300 experience. Do not forget that is under the assumption that your character isn't attacking anything for that period of time. Also there might be a misunderstanding about the word "large". Turning private chat off gets a large increase? That is incredibly doubtful. While you are typing, that doesn't mean your character stops what it is doing. It continues to attack. Even if the NPCs are unagressive, it quite easily possible to stop typing for 2 seconds and click a new NPC and then continue typing. Again this is brought back to efficiency. If you actually receive a "large" loss from simply talking to friends, I would state that it clearly shows how inefficient you are. I must be having trouble understanding what it is you are saying about the experience outside of Slayer. Unless you are not referring to it in the way I described in my previous post. I'll bring it back to efficiency, using only your numbers given, I can prove how you contradicted yourself and that you are wrong here. Range as you say gets 160k experience per hour at 0 cost? You then Say melee gets 103k experience at 190k profit. For Range to get the same amount of experience as melee takes only 38.625 minutes. You therefore have 21.375 minutes to make back the 190k. 190,000/0.35625 = 533,333.3gp. Since according to you this rate cannot be attained by the average person, doesn't that make it less efficient to get range compared to melee? More importantly, there is another aspect you have forgotten. Melee has two skills to raise (Attack and Strength), as well as Defence really since nearly all players train their Defence with melee. Does that not infer that Melee experience is also more important than Range? 850k/h is possible, but that does not make it fair. As far as I know, the average player cannot attain those rates. If you read through the thread I have not been talking about me. I already know that every aspect of Slayer is better than other methods and I use prayer during tasks as well as a cannon as it is more efficient for me to use it than not. I also have over 91 Runecrafting, but that is also not the only method I can use to make money. No point telling me the average player does not have maxed melees, you'll never find me saying they do. I have been arguing that point throughout the thread actually. If you read through my calculations you'll find the 200 "crimsons worth" is not needed. I had already incorporated that in. I used the average crimson to be worth 350 experience. For every one of those you get, on average you get 0.5 gold, 0.2 green, and about 0.034 blue (hard to put a number on blue). I incorporated that in to make the average experience per crimson charm to be about 457, 107 higher. That is why it said it required over 14k crimsons to get that much experience, and then the amount dropped to 11k. The other charms are worth approximately 3k crimsons.

Low defence doesn't make the Sword better. You are still going to be hitting more often with the Scimitar. Not all monsters with high defence are weak to stab either. Another thing to say is that it isn't all about the max hit. Hitting higher doesn't help if your chances of actually hitting to begin with are low. You shouldn't discount the Whip either, it is actually more efficient to train Strength that way, same with Attack and Defence. Instead of taking a round about guess that you finish faster, actually time it and gain rates. As some mentioned earlier, your "guide" is nothing but saying that the weapon exists and you believe it is good. You have given no evidence to this and expect just because it can hit higher that it is better. In my experience Dragon Scimitar gets 20k more experience per hour on average compared to the TokTs-Xil-Ak. What makes that statement any less true that what you have said? (For the record it isn't true :lol: ). Perform controlled tests and then determine the outcome, you can't do it the other way around. As for the Infernal Mages, Duradel sed to assign them, ages ago. They haven't been there for ages so Lapolak has no chance to have assigned you them. Even if they were still no the list you would be even more worse off. The loss of 35 magic defence will result in receiving much more damage from them, and is not worth using.

Your calculations make no sense. I understand what you were trying to do sort of, but you did it wrong. You can't work it out with a set gp/h already in mind, more specifically not 850k/h. The average player cannot attain that rate. After reading what I wrote, how can you say it is 40 hours for the charms? You will average 145 per hour. So to get the 11.2k charms will take 76.73 hours. You cannot guess a number and expect it to be taken as fact. It was almost the double the time you guessed of 40 hours. The loss was calculated to be 46.3m on the bursts, and Slayer was originally about 5.8mil ahead, so that is also added on. The calculations I did show the threshold of when it becomes better. The 135k/h number is the number I have been using. That number was also from using a cannon, and according to compfreak847, without a cannon he believes the profit is higher. So essentially it is higher than 135k. The number was attained by averaging 75k/h from drops you get from each NPC. Since nearly every task takes under an hour to complete (there are a few that take longer, but only in high enough numbers), you will average more than 1 task an hour. That means you get slightly over 24 slayer points per hour worth. A Slayer Dart package costs 35 points and is worth about 77,000gp at the moment (it was higher at the time when this was first worked out). That means one task is worth about 52,800gp currently, irrespective of drops. It is essentially 60k+ per hour on top of the average profit from drops. As for the time between tasks, it isn't as much as you would think. Oops again :-# . Forgot to take over the Summoning experience from the Zombies. There is still a bit chunk of experience there though. As for the experience, what is better between these 2 options; rank or rank and levels. Dark Beasts may not be best to fight after tasks, but that doesn't mean they should be excluded either. If no-one fought them out of tasks there would be very few Dark Bows in comparison to what there are now. You really should update the 1st post, even you are getting confused with what you are trying to argue :lol: . Weren't we talking about Armoured Zombies not Zombie Monkies? Well originally what you say does seem correct, you are forgetting an important aspect. That 65k number was based as an average for someone using a cannon. Without a cannon all the experience from Slayer would go to melee. As you have said, the melee experience without a cannon is higher than with on an hourly basis. So essentially the rate is higher than 65k anyway. I put the lower rate as 50-55k, which is barely anything to be arguing about anyway. I got the 57.5k as it was halfway between 50 and 65k (although the average should be higher really as more time is spent at higher levels compared to low, same for the Zombies, this way it is the same for both at least). You musn't have understood me then. I know that Range can be trained outside of Slayer faster than melee, but that is irrelevant. If you read the example you would see why. Saying "I hope you can see that 160k XP with 0 loss > ~50k? (not sure, never tried to range slayer)" is pointless. Of course that is higher, but it doesn't matter. You are also only guessing the amount of Range experience here. There are certain tasks that when ranged are faster than using melee, and one that is essentially the same. What is the point of getting 99 Slayer but not having your combat stats already at 99? Is it better to have say 15m in Attack/Strength/Defence but only 10m in Range or better to have all at 99? If during Slayer you use Range on some tasks, you will actually get 99 Slayer faster than simply meleeing. You are also ensuring you get all stats to 99. The example showed this, i'll show it but with numbers (numbers are fictional): You spend 1000 hours getting 99 Slayer, you get melee and Range stats to 99. You spend 1100 hours getting 99 Slayer, you get melee stats to 99 and Range to 95. You then spend an extra 20 hours getting Range to 99. You spent an extra 120 hours to get Slayer to 99 because you melee'd every task. This works out slower overall and you had to spend extra time getting Range to 99. That is the point I am making. It results in overall faster Slayer experience and all stats are at 99. Therefore is it not also possible to get a snack during Slayer (without losing 20k experience)? The cannon argument ended because you were too stubborn to acknowledge when you are wrong. I have yet to see you actually show where it is inefficient, you did nothing but simply say it is inefficient. You really should look back over your posts, because you are supplying incorrect information because you have forgotten what was said. It wasn't proven inefficient at all. Yes it is utterly impossible to put a time on how long it takes. It is however absolutely ridiculous to assume it is hard or will take up any significant amount of time. The only way for it to be hard is if the NPCs actually switched places every so often... since they don't, it isn't exactly hard. As was mentioned the armour choices are small, with no other way to say this the player would have to be incredibly stupid to not be able to remember what they took last time. This is because even if they managed to forget, it is essentially common sense on what to take. It is like suggesting someone doing their second task of Bloodvelds will take standard armour there instead of armour with magic defence. The only thing maybe slightly hard is the inventory, but that is about minimal. Kalphites poison, take a super-antipoison. It is multicombat, take a cannon and possibly a combat familiar. They don't have a magic based attack, they aren't strong enough to require protect from melee prayer, must be standard armour then. It is simple. I don't play in fullscreen mode (haven't bothered to get used to it), I have public chat on as well as private, but I don't use any clan chats anyway (this has been gone through before anyway, that has literally no chance of slowing a player down anyway). What other activities in RL do you do that would slow down your rate so much? Most of all, don't bother trying to cover up your mistakes. That 50k when you suggested was not based of average players attention. You had stated that was at max stats with 100% attention and that the player would have to be lucky to get that. Anything that could somehow lower the rate by 20k on Slayer will have an effect on Armoured Zombies regardless of what you think. ISP is called Netspace, I live in Australia by the way.

Oops, I forgot about the money. It isn't 37.5mil though. That would only be the case if the Armoued Zombies really were 190k on average (which there is only one person who I have ever seen say this rate, and he is known to overstate rates and make up numbers to try and prove his point). However, still assuming Zombies are 190k, Slayer is 135k. 378.8 hours at Armoured Zombies is 71.972mil gained. 576.4 hours of Slayer is 77.814mil gained. Using the average of 350 experience per crimson, it requires 14,529 crimson charms worth to make up the lost Summoning experience. On average for every 1 Crimson charm gained at Rock Lobsters you get 0.5 Gold. On average for every 1 Crimson charm gained at Rock Lobsters you get 0.25 Green. On average for every 1 Crimson charm gained at Rock Lobsters you get 0.034 Blue. That is what I get in my experience approximately. That means getting 1 crimson charms is approximately worth 350+(0.5*86)+(0.25*150)+(0.034*780) = 457.02 rounded off to 457. This means you need to get about 11,127 crimson charms (in doing so the other charms make up for the rest of experience to get the same). You get about 140-150 crimsons per hour, using 650 casts per hour, at the 9 Lobster area. One cast costs about 928 at current prices. This means on average you are spending 4,160 per crimson charm (supplies irrelevant as other drops pay for them). That means to get that amount of charms at that price costs 46,287,892gp. Add to that the extra money from what Slayer would have got is 52,129,892gp. Also note that it would take approximately 76.73 hours to complete those bursts. That means you have approximately 120.87 hours remaining. If you can make over 431,289 per hour consistently then in the same time frame, you have made the same amount of money, melee experience, summoning experience. You get Magic experience from the bursts and Slayer experience from the Slayer. So which is worth more to you, Magic or Slayer experience? It is mroe to do with the unwillingness to spend ages waiting for the page to load at dial-up speed. Some cases it has taken over 5 minutes to fully load, others can be alot less. Regardless it is still alot slower with the normal speed I have. It had nothing to do with "numbers being negotiated", that is furthur shown where I adressed them in my post. I have yet to see where it was proven inefficient. You hvae done nothing but constantly state that over and over. How about you actually show where? Or better yet, post a quote here. With no other way to say this, you clearly aren't as intelligent as you claim if you believe this. I never mentioned to put every scrap of information in. I said to update it. You could start by getting rid of the Zombie Monkies from the 1st post which has quite clearly been shown to be in no way worth doing. There is still some posts that have mentioned them, and are unaware that it has moved beyond that. You could update the rates to what is currently being used. But no... you're right... that is way too much information to add. If you do update it, you need to stop over/under exaggerating the rates and such to try and prove your point. In other words stating rates which make your method seem better than it really is. Where did that number of 80+ come from? Oh... you made that number up also, nevermind then. You can't predict when someone will have something memorized. Are you actually going to try and tell me and everyone else that remembering what to take to each task is hard or takes a long time to remember? There really is so little difference across the bulk of tasks. Every task in a different location, you've got to be kidding me. You are now going to try and say that after you do task X at location X, that you instantly forget where it is? Example below: *Gets a task of Gargoyles* "Where do I find those?" *Looks up where they are* "Ahh, Chaos Tunnels* *Completes tasks and gets a new one. New task is Bloodvelds* "Where do I find those?" *Looks up where they are* "Hmm, I haven't done that quest yet, so i'll go to the Slayer Tower" *Completes tasks and gets a new one. New task is Gargoyles* "Where do I find those?" That is essentially what you are suggesting. I don't think you'll convince anyone that you can so easily forget where they are. You mention various ways to get there... that is irrelevant really. Person X will use the same method to get there as before unless they are presented with a better method. The different types of armour used across all tasks are really only; Karils, Proselyte, Bandos (keep in mind Karils can be substituted for Black d'hide, Bandos for Barrows, Proselyte to Initate/Monk, this is just personally what I use), Dragonfire shield/Anti Dragon Shield, Defender, Zamorak Robe Bottom. That is all that is needed for every task essentially. Of course there are other armour slots, but those do not change over tasks. There is different weapons; Abyssal Whip, Saradomin Sword (for when the crush style outperforms Whip), Godsword (same reason SS and can be used as speccing weapon), Dragon Dagger (p++) (or similar speccing weapon). There is nothing hard to remember. There is essentially 3 different armour types to use. One that requires magic defence/range bonus, another that requires prolonged use of prayer, and another that is just standard. The only reason for the SS compared to the Whip is for on tasks where the enemy has a noticeable weakness to crush (Gargoyles and Waterfiends). The Dragonfire shield/Anti Dragon Shield is for tasks where you fight Dragons (that was a hard guess : ), a Rune Defender is best used on every other task. Don't bother trying to mention 100% attention any more. There is no such thing as 100% attention to begin with. The rates I supplied do not require the "100% attention" you keep saying. As has been stated, Melee experience isn't always better than Range experience. The ability to get more Range than melee experience outside of Slayer is irrelevant. Say it takes X time to get 99 Slayer and you get 99 in melee skills but only 95 in Range. Another person takes X time to get 99 Slayer and they got 99 in melee and Range skills because they balanced out their experience gain. So it comes down to you have to spend extra time to get it to 99 after Slayer, and unless i'm mistaken, is inefficient? Don't try and say using Range gets you less experience per hour, it doesn't, as I have shown ain my previous post. "Your 65k number"... that is comical. Your first post says otherwise. You said the experience rate is 50k MAX at MAX stats and that requires you to be lucky (although where luck comes in I am unsure). I proved you wrong in this respect. I was the one who suggested the average of 65k per hour, stating at the time that I actually get higher. So the 65k was never for maxed stats, and you were not the one who came up with the number. This reply you posted even shows how biased you were. "so using 65k as the average for slayer and 75k as the average for armored zombies is worthless"... please show where I used those as the averages. As for how it showed you were biased? I gave a range of rates which you would get over the course of about 80 stats to 99. That was for both methods. You state here that I used the minimum for the Armoured Zombies and the maximum for Slayer. As quite clearly the the post of mine you quoted shows, I did not. You purposely state it wrong (it could be accidentally, but that would infer you didn't read it all... which if anything is worse), and then expect what you say as evidence that it is worthless? If I had done that, then maybe it would be worthless, but since we know I didn't, it musn't be. I don't see where the Summoning experience is off. I originally asked you what it would be per hour, you said around 8k I think. My tests showed it was about 8k at the rate I was getting. As was shown much earlier on, Slayer is 18k or so, and I dropped that to 13.75k as an average. So unless the rate of Summoning experience at armoured Zombies is 16k, I am sure this also shows you purposely making up results in order to be right... or you simply never read what I wrote. How you normally play Runescape does not mean every plays it the same as you. Getting a snack... I don't know what you be eating if you did that for Slayer, is it not fair to assume the same for Armoured Zombies? Hence also meaning the rate there is dropped? Starting a virus scan... yep, same can be said for Armoured Zombies. Oh wait, everything you stated can be stated for Armoured Zombies. You can't state it has no affect on Armoured Zombies, but that there is a 31% reduction on Slayer... if that isn't biased i'm not sure what is. The 16.2mil loss came from the Summoning experience and Slayer experience. Technically every skill is worthless however, before 99 you gain ranks and levels with experience as well as increased bonus from that skill (in the case of combat skills), after 99 you only gain rank. So experience before 99 is logically less worthless, if that makes sense.

This is wrong. Even if one of these NPCs is weaker to stab than slash, it isn't by alot in this case (except for metal dragons). However, while it may be weaker to that type, the added bonus of a much higher attack bonus outweighs that. Compare the TokTz-Xil-Ak to the Dragon Scimitar. The Scimitar has a +39 Attack bonus over the Obsidian Weapon. That outweighs the lower defence to stab unless their is a great difference in the defence. An example is say one NPC has an effective defence bonus of +100 slash and +90 Stab. Sure it is weaker to stab, but the Dragon Scimitar will have a higher experience rate due to its higher bonus. Your defence bonuses are down by +33 in stab and slash and +35 in the other defence bonuses. Over time that will result in more damage being done to you and cost more money. Don't forget the +2 prayer difference either. If you include the difference in attack bonus, defence bonus, and prayer bonus, even a Dragon Scimitar will result in cheaper training, with a higher experience rate. I posted something similar to this in a thread in General Discussion. It was to determine the threshold for when the +2 prayer bonus outweighs the increased cost of the item (in that case it was a fire cape). I'll work it out for this case here (and afterwards you'll see why this comparison is important). In order for the +2 prayer bonus to be worth it, you need to save 2.4mil on using Prayer in the future with the Fury (difference in price between the two setups). Assuming the average player has 70 Prayer, a Prayer potion will restore 96 points at the cost of 8,214. So the Fury needs to save approximately 28,050 prayer points, which is about 292 Prayer potions worth. A +2 Prayer bonus makes 1 Prayer point last about 0.07 seconds longer, but we'll round it off to 0.1. So for every 10 prayer points used 1 extra point is saved, meaning in total you will need to use 280,497 prayer points to be worth it. So if in the future you plan on using over 2,922 prayer potions, the Fury and Dragon Scimitar combination is worth it. If over the course of everything you do, if you ever use more than that many prayer potions, then by that aspect alone the additonal cost of the Fury is made up and anything after is profit. Yes that is alot of prayer potions though, but that is just one aspect of why it is worse. The lowered defence will result in an increased cost of food and such and waste time for any additonal bank trips caused by this. That is also based on you getting an equal amount of experience per hour with each set up. The Scimitar will have a higher rate than the TotTz-Xil-Ak. You listed 16 tasks, one of which Duradel doesn't even assign (Infernal Mages). Most of those tasks you are better off which a higher attack and/or defence bonus.

Havent been able to post much since I somehow managed to go over the download limit for the month. Highest Ive ever used a month was about 9.6GB, usually using about 7.5 or so. Somehow managed to go over 15 already, no idea how. So it has dropped to dial-up speed, so incredibly slow -.- . Anyway, continuing from my last post. Ill put this as easy as I can to contradict your belief here. You say they are not worth picking up as you lose hits in order to do so. Please therefore explain to me how with my (as you have said many times) significantly lower stats and also wasting time by picking up these drops, that I am able to get a greater amount of kills per hour in comparison to you (who as you have stated, does not waste time picking those drops up and has better stats)? Keep in mind you were the one who stated it was 550k per hour originally. I have yet to see where the cannon was proven inefficient. If no cannon was used on Slayer, it would increase the melee experience per hour would it not (hence also Hitpoints)? So you would therefore not lose much experience in not using a cannon, but I have no results for this. I would approximate maybe 15k or so. That is based on 70k melee experience per hour, which is 23.3k Hitpoints and 17.5k Slayer. Using that ratio it would drop to about 14k Summoning experience also. That is about 124.8k experience compared to the Monkies 143.3k. Monkies lose about 110k per hour and Slayer (as you say would have a higher profit if no cannon was used) would have a positive amount of money, but well stick with 135k anyway (same as with cannon). That still means you need to be able to make over 1.9mil per hour for the Monkies to be better than Slayer. So Slayer is still more efficient unless this number is reached. The last section shows how unbelievable your rates really are. 65k melee (thats melee not combat) experience an hour, but 45k for informal training? What is classified as informal training? Please explain how some difference here would result in a 20k drop, it just seems impossible unless you are purposely not doing Slayer. Informal in this context means relaxed and casual. That infers you were not being casual in the first place (considering you are playing a game for fun, I would already assume it is to some extent relaxed). What would honestly be the difference? Talking to friends? Well geez, you already do that whilst being formal. There is no way that could reduce the rate by 20k, let alone even 1k if anything. I dont really see anyway that it would drop the rate so much. This was after it was suggested to use NPC contact. There is no reason to alch the drops while on the task as compared to off. It is just as easy to bank the items to alch later. I addressed this above. The difference here is you stipulated that is requires 100% attention and a lot of practice to get this rate. I wont deny there is practice, but that is minimal. What is there to learn really? Drinking potions and such in between hits? That would affect the powertraining more than Slayer. Learning what to take to each task? Unless you have the inability to convert short-term memories to long-term there is no reason for this to be hard. The outfit is basically the same across all task, which some small changes across different NPCs. Just got Abyssal Demons? Take the standard outfit. Just got Black Dragons? Swap the Rune Defender to a Dragonfire Shield or Anti-Dragon shield and you are set. Got Bloodvelds? Swap to Karils/Dragonhide and back to Rune Defender and your set. If you kill the ones in multi, then instead get Proselyte in comparison to Karils, also bring a cannon and cannonballs. Where is the difficulty? I often do not pay as much attention as I could on tasks but I still get higher rates than you suggest. The mistake here is your use of the word "combat". That is the melee experience, only one part of combat. Based on what I have seen (and the majority of other people) is Armoured Zombies is 80-100k experience per hour depending on stats. Ill base it on my observations of 95k. That means you get 95k melee experience, 31.7k Hitpoints and from the charms about 8k. That is a total of 134.7k "combat" experience per hour. For Slayer Ill again use the number I have stated in this thread over and over (note that I actually get higher but this is the number I have been using). You get 65k melee experience per hour, 21.7k Hitpoints, 12.5k Range, 18k Summoning experience. That is 117.17 "combat" experience per hour. Using the exact numbers, that is a difference of 17.5k in favor of the Armoured Zombies. However, what hasnt been included is the Slayer experience, while not a combat skill it is directly related to combat as there is no other way to efficiently train it. Add this in and there is a 5k difference in favor of Slayer. I just wanted to clear that up. Im not going to tell you how to train Slayer, but if you are after efficient experience you are better off skipping Steel Dragons. Doing Iron is debatable (with melee that is). Mithril Dragons give the lowest Slayer experience in game, but they are a fun task, takes minimal time and isnt a very common task. So not one to be blocked. Steels however are more common, are very slow experience (about 14k Slayer experience per hour). Irons are about 19k per hour to Slayer, or about 21k with the Dragon Slayer gloves (though I personally dont find the time to get the gloves worth it, it may be for others). They are a reasonable task to do if you use melee and piety though combined with the Slayer Helm. Mage just isnt efficient to use on any task when compared to melee or Range. The chance of making money from Slayer is actually quite high, and it isnt all about the drops. This is due to the Slayer points on average will get you 60k or more per hour in top of what you earn from drops. I know you meant ranks but there is a flaw in the argument. It isnt about getting the fastest experience, it is about being efficient. That is why it is not worth getting the combat skills to 99 beforehand (except for Prayer). Say you use Armoured Zombies to get, you will get more "combat" experience per hour and hence get them to 99 first, but you sacrifice the Slayer experience. From say about 80-99 you would range from maybe 70k-75k at 80 to 100k at 99 per hour (I got the 75k as an estimate as someone told me they got about 85k per hour with stats at 88). On Slayer you might get at 80 50-55k up to 65k (and higher) at 99 (no idea at 80 stats really, and 65k is the number I have been using, though as stated it is higher for me, also that rate is based on using a cannon, without a cannon the rate is higher for melee). Using 87.5k as an average for Zombies and 57.5k for Slayer Ill show the difference. Also note for now I am excluding the Range experience. Ill also add in the Summoning experience (using 7.5k per hour for Zombies and 15k for Slayer as an average). I changed my mind, but Ill add it here. Instead the number for Summoning on Slayer will be about 13.75k (making the ratio about 0.95:1). This is due to at 15k you would have got more Summoning experience than Slayer, so I lowered the rate. Zombies It would take 126.3 hours to get one melee skill to 99. Therefore taking about 378.8 hours to get all three to 99. You would gain about 2,841,008 Summoning experience. Slayer I would take about 192.1 hours to get one melee skill to 99. Therefore taking about 576.4 hours to get all three to 99. You would also gain in the process, 8,286,272.25 Slayer experience. You would gain about 7,926,000 Summoning experience. Hitpoints experience would be the same for both options. So you are losing out on 16.2mil experience for a gain of 197.6 hours. Using Waterfiends, to get that amount of experience (using 100 crimsons worth of charms per hour at 0 cost, not sure on profit but it doesnt matter) would take about 226.5 hours. Without even bothering to do more calculations Slayer is already better off. Well unless you value Slayer experience as a negative (which makes no sense seeing as it would provide no negative to your account), Slayer is better in that respect. Kind of a long response to such a small section :lol: . He isnt ranting for it to be changed. It is about people suggesting other people to train it. I personally think that if an update occurred to give it more experience (for example, on Slayer you get 1.5x the experience as you would without, so 6x per damage, 3x for cannon and 2x per damage for Hitpoints, also increase the experience to Slayer) while increasing the experience output, would ruin the skill. Nearly everyone would be doing Slayer making every single spot overcrowded. The only other way to really increase the experience is to add more NPCs to the list that have a very high experience rate, this increases the average experience rate. As I have stated before, there are tasks worth ranging. Ranging Fire Giants is 2k or less Slayer experience per hour compared to melee. However, if your stats were uneven to begin with (Im talking long term here), it is better off to get Range experience so that all your combat stats are at 99 before you get 99 Slayer. Ranging Black Demons can be over 10k faster Slayer experience per hour, however you will get less charms (for some reason only a certain graphical type of them drops charms, which just seems like a bug to me). Ranging Hellhounds is better than meleeing them. Even though I personally dont do this task, Range is the better option here. Dont mention your first post to be honest. There is so many mistakes in it and it is so far behind in information that it almost isnt worth reading at all. This is proven by your last sentence As I stated, almost all of my unbers and methods have been updated and determined precisely since then. Almost all number and methods? Doesnt that therefore mean your first post is useless until updated? I have suggested many times for you to update it. I have said so throughout the thread, not just recently. To even suggest someone should have to read through every page to find one specific piece of information is so far beyond stupid I cant think of a proper way to explain how bad it is. I can even relate it to overall efficiency to prove that it should be updated. It would take ages for a person to read through this entire thread before making a response, for example Ill say 10 hours (its a lot of writing). So for each person that reads through it, it takes 10 hours. If you did this and updated the first post it would takes 10 hours or less (less due to you already knowing most of what was said). This would make all future people not have to read through the thread. You could say that it is taken out of your time, but is <10 hours better than n amount of people times 10 hours? You would gain better responses to your thread as they have more information. You wouldnt have to effectively ignore what someone says every time a new post is made without consulting every other page. This would overall be better for the entire thread would it not?

Those are not the only drops worth picking up. They may be the drops that add up the most, but the others also add up. If you had looked back to page 22 you would see that, instead i'll post the drops I got here: That was in the course of 55.5 minutes, hence why it is 92k for the hour. So yes, the drops pay for the supplies used. Armoured Zombies have already been shown to be less experience, I don't see why you can't understand that. As also the cannon has been shown to be worth it. As for the Zombie Monkies it was worked out to be about 1.6k more experience per hour than Slayer. However, to get that extra experience you were losing out on about 245k per hour. If you make well over 20m an hour Zombie Monkies are better, since that is impossible on a consistent basis, there is no possible way for them to be better.

There is a thread exactly like this in the Debate Club forum. There isn't really any discussion value here in my opinion.

Does no-one read my posts? :cry: It works the same way for Strength level as the bonus.

I believe the point is that if even something as simple as the Adamant Chainbody is better than a Torso, then clearly the Torse is far from being good.

The 550k was your number. You posted that number in this thread only 1 or 2 (maybe 3) pages back. I also tested them (back on page 22) and I worked out the rate. 48k for pots? I calculated the supplies to be about an 87k loss. That must mean that spiritual mages are even worse though right? No, because you ignored their drops. Their drops other than Dragon Boots repay the cost of supplies and even make a little extra profit. That essentially means any Dragon Doots received is pure profit. The kill rate was slightly higher and you are essentially guaranteed an average of over 100k more here than Aviansies whilst also gaining more combat experience. Isn't this entire thread about combat experience? I however haven't stated that my average is the average for everyone. Also as I have shown, you get less experience at Armoured Zombies then on Slayer, and the money i'm still unsure about. The entire premise for which this thread was creating was in the comparison to Zombie Monkies. I proved without a doubt that there is no way that they are better than doing Slayer. Also note all the mistakes in the first post. The only reason this is still going is because Armoured Zombies were released. The rates for them need extensive testing before a conclusion can really be reached as they are so close. Even if for arguments sake that Armoured Zombies work out better, and from what I have seen, the difference would still be negligible. That means there is only one possible option in the game better than Slayer. How does that make Slayer so bad when it would make Slayer second best by a mere fraction? NPC contact (as TheDayRsDied suggested) or Karamja Gloves 3 are two great options to get the task and consume little time. Figuring out how and where? How is that hard? They don't move around to a different place every few tasks, you will kill them the same way you have done so in the past. There really isn't much in the way of 'specific' supplies, and the ones that are do not cost much. As has been stated, how is gaining approximately 135k+ per hour a waste of money...? Gaining money is a waste... oh noes my Runecrafting level is ruined now.... ok sure. Also the experience is good and above average when everything is taken into account. It works out to about 141.7k or so overall experience per hour. 85 Slayer also is not that high. The number itself might be, but the experience required to get to 85 is relatively small in the long run.

There is something I want to correct. Many people keep stating this and not one person has gotten it right yet. It is when people say "the +4 strength bonus doesn't always increase your max hit, therefore it provides no advantage", or something to that effect. It is true that on average to increase your max hit by one, requires about +5 or +6 or about that. Does that make the +4 worthless? No it does not. Here is an example, say you have X Strength level and +120 strength bonus, your max hit is exactly 40.0. If you use a Torso (this works with all other strength bonus increasing items also), it becomes +124. In game, the highest damage 'splat' you will ever see is still 40 however, your max hit is not 40. Your max hit is 40.8 or something to that effect (always rounds down on Runescape when it is combat). So what does this mean? Since the when you hit (not a 0), the damage can range from 1-40, you have essentially one chance to hit that 40. This is due to how the combat system works, it is random what you hit to an extent, with your average hit being about half. With 40.8, you have a higher chance to hit 40 (although a small increase). This also means that on average you will be hitting higher, regardless of if it actually increases the damage by 1. Note that I still think Torso isn't worth getting just for training, I am simply correcting everyone's mistake.

Not quite : . If you wanted to train Slayer to 99 using piety, you would use more than amount of Prayer potions easily enough. There are many cases in which use alot of Prayer that would help in this respect, while it may take a while, for alot of people it is most likely worth using.

I was just stating that Slayer isn't as hard as you make it out to be (hundreds of hours to learn how to do Slayer, if that were true by the time you know how to do it you have it at 99). You can't really compare difficulty as not everyone finds the same things hard. About the cannon, I explained why I hadn't posted. Oddly enough, no-one else posted during that time, funny isn't it? I showed from tests and Qeltar's data that it was. Another point to bring up is 83 Slayer in the long run won;t take that long to get and results in 550k per hour profit on average. Using that as the money maker would more than make the cannon worth it considering it was worth it at only 400k. Even though you somehow disagree with it not being worth it at 400k, what reason is there for 550k?

Thats true. The gloves are the best for that armour slot, and the torso is far from it. Even so, the point still stands. Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you've said about the torso, but that same logic applies to this and many other items. Thats the point though! As I said there are some worth doing in that they provide enough of an advantage that the time spent to get this advantage is worth it. In most cases however it is not. I just think that if you are going to make the same argument against torso, it also needs to be done for other items. If you read my post you'll see I said I always do quests regardless of the bonus. My point was if you make this argument against the Torso, it is only fair you do the same for many other items. With the fire cape, say the average person takes 3 attempts to get it, each try takes 1.5 hours, so hence 6 hours to get it. You also get 180k Range experience (I don't know really, but someone else mentioned 60k an attempt). The spend maybe 1million on supplies used. Now the question is, are the bonuses of the cape worth what you used up. You could get the same amount of Range experience at Aviansies in about 4.5 hours and get 1.8mil profit. So it isn't worth it for the Range experience, it must be the bonuses. The attack bonuses will increase experience rates, but by essentially nothing noticeable. The +1 bonus will essentially have no effect. It has +2 better defence bonuses compared to the next best cape (Obsidian in this case, everyone has access to it and it costs a bit over 200k), but that is not really noticeable. Next is the bonus to Strength. Strength clearly isn't worth it considering the torso's strength isn't either. So finally the prayer bonus. Having bought an Obsidian cape and done 4.5 hours at Aviansies you would be up by 2.6million. In order for the +2 prayer bonus to be worth it, you need to save 2.6mil on using Prayer in the future with the cape. Assuming the average player has 70 Prayer, a Prayer potion will restore 96 points at the cost of 8,332. So the Fire cape needs to save approximately 29,957 prayer points, which is about 312 Prayer potions. A +2 Prayer bonus makes 1 Prayer point last about 0.07 seconds longer, but we'll round it off to 0.1. So for every 10 prayer points used 1 extra point is saved, meaning in total you will need to use 299,570 prayer points to be worth it. So if in the future you plan on using over 3,121 prayer potions, the Fire cape is worth getting. I confused my self so badly near the end :? , but I think I got it right still. Feel free to check for any errors.

You missed the main point I was making. Is the average player going to have 99 combat stats? The obvious answer is no, therefore your average rate is not the average rate for the average player. I don't see why that was so difficult to understand. As for "telling" me what they are... in your first post didn't you also tell everyone that the Monkies were only 40k loss per hour? That wasn't a "general guesstimate" was it? As for the picking up drops with how you described, that has a higher chance of losing more experience per hour than clicking on the Zombie. Why you may ask? Because your basing it on their hits, not yours. You might be just about to hit after they hit you, but because of doing it the way you described, you miss out on a hit as auto-retaliate has to wait until it hits you again. The way to lose the least amount is to click on them between your hits. With the section where I referred to easiness, I was not talking about the Monkies. As for you stating it takes hours to learn about the cannon, it is far from difficult. If the NPC is 2 steps away and 1 step in a perpendicular direction in any way, it will double fire (a L shape, like a Knights jump in chess). If the NPC takes up more than one sqare, it goes on which square its drop appears on. As for luring with the cannon? there is no need to. Most tasks you set up the cannon, you stand next to it. You don't have to move, the cannon lures them to you. All up, Slayer does not require hundreads of hours of strategy. He didn't prove a cannon was worth using for the record. I proved it was, and he just ignored what I said and kept saying it wasn't worth it. I don't want to go through it again however, if you want to see it, it is from about page 14 or so onwards.

I agree with both sides of this particular point. Yes there are some rewards that are great and cannot be gotten other ways to compensate. However, ReapMe is correct still. Say a quests gives experience, yes its great, however, in the time it takes to do the quest, you could have gotten that experience and more. In most cases the experience rewards from quests are not enough to compensate. Quests are more often than not inefficient. I do quests because I like them, I don't care about the rewards. I find them fun and always do them without a guide. The same argument that compfreak847 is making can be applied to items such as the barrows gloves. Are you going to tell me that in the time it takes to get 175QP, have the necessary stats and complete the quest that it is worth using? Compare it to a Regeneration Bracelet. Lower in attack bonuses by on 4 (3 for magic), lower in defence bonuses by 6 (3 for magic), lower in strength by 5, and it costs less than 400k. Its ability to double regeneration of Hitpoints more than compensates for the small decrease in defence. It is almost the exact same argument as with the Torso. However this one provides experience bonuses and takes alot more time to get. In that time you could easily make all the experience you get from rewards and then a plethora of combat experience that trumps the "Barrows" Gloves unless you plan on doing combat for over a couple thousand hours.

I don't see how my setup was "terrible". The only difference is prayer bonus and strength bonus (also defence, but the Bunyip compensates enough that it is irrelevant). At my Prayer level (75), it would take 2.61 minutes to drain all of the prayer using Bandos. With Proselyte it would take 3.33 minutes. That would result in about 5 extra trips to recharge prayer per hour. That would incur a small loss going up the ladder, recgarging and back down takes very little time. About 5 seconds, or 10 if slow. I would also be killing at a faster rate, nothing overly significant though. If anything I would have lost less than 1k experience by using Bandos. That is far from "terrible". You misread what I posted then. I did not "notice" any loss in speed with another person there, so that didn't need to be said. As I said, with one other person there there are more than enough Zombie spawns so that I am always in combat (as was the other person) with extra spawns to spare. The only loss of speed that may have been incurred was a chance of an increased distance between Zombies. However, the distance would be so minimal that the loss in time would be little to none. You also misread why I was clicking on the Zombie. The only reason for slower experience was the 3rd person showing up. There were not enough spawns to sustain 3 people, but there is more than enough for 2 people. The main problem with clicking them is that after you kill one and click another, your character runs towards it but gets attacked by another one instead. This results in a loss in hits. In this respect I let auto-retaliate do the job. When I pick up the drops I am already in combat, and I pick up the drops between Whip hits, I then click to attack the Zombie so no loss of speed is incurred. Only sometimes did I accidentally click the wrong one, yes it would have lowered the experience rate, but it would have been a very small loss. I already said more tests would be better, but one hour is a reasonable approximation. This applies to the experience rates and also the profit (although not quite as much on the profit). As for the lower stats, I could have sworn we went through this pages back with Zombie Monkies. Your stats are not that much higher (although more so now than it was before) that the loss in speed won't be significant. Keep in mind, the average player does not have near or at 99 combat stats. So the point of stating 100k as the average isn't accurate, as I said in my previous post. The point is, while these are a good alternative, it is too close to tell which is more efficient without extensive testing. The experience rate for the average player will be less than on Slayer, the profit could be lower or higher. Also, the person who was there with me at the time I asked what he was getting. He said with his stats all at 85 that he got about 86k experience per hour and about 100k profit. He was using proselyte armour, but a DFS instead of a Rune Defender. Going back to one of your original arguments of why Slayer is bad, is saying Zombie Monkies were far easier than doing Slayer. At Armoured Zombies, potting every 5 minutes, recharging prayer, and the "knack for timing picking up with auto retaliate" requires far more attention than Slayer. So Slayer is easier.

Charms weren't a moot point. On Slayer the average was about 17-18k xp/h. I went to Armoured Zombies and did two one hour tests (more would be better, but 1 will show a reasonable approximation). One test was with full Void armour (melee helm), and the 2nd was with Bandos armour. The reason for the different armour was just in case one was better or not. I used a Unicorn instead of a Bunyip, only reason is I prefer it and I wanted to see how much damage I was actually taking. I repotted every 5 mins (everytime my stats dropped to 109, they pot to 114), I had piety on the whole time also, and I used dds specs when I could, I was also using controlled attack style. With Void I got 93,787 xp, with Bandos I got 93,347. Some reasons why I might not have gotten higher, there was someone else there at the time, however I always had a Zombie to attack so essentially little to no loss in experience. On the test with Bandos, a few times within the hour a 3rd person showed up which did slow down the experience rate, they didn't stay for long each time. After picking up some drops, I sometimes clicked to attack the wrong Zombie whcih caused me to miss out on a hit with Whip, overall a small loss. I used 3 super sets in both tests, that costs 14,721. With Void I used 32 scrolls to heal with the Unicorn and 14 with Bandos. A Bunyip can heal 480 per hour, so I could have used a Bunyip to keep my Hitpoints up safely. Since thats the case you can assume I used a Bunyip (they're cheaper, and more people have access to them), which costs about 2,486 per hour. With Void I gained 141,211 in drops, with Bandos I got 123,913. Taking off supplies used, I gained 124,004 with Void and 106,706 with Bandos, that averages out to about 115,355 per hour. Also with the charms, I gained about 6,134 with Void and 10,882 with Bandos, averaging out to 8,508 per hour. If as you say you get just over 100k xp/h (i'll just round off to 100k), then I can use the ratio of my xp:gp to make it 100k xp. This increases the average profit to about 124,496 profit per hour. This would also mean the Summoning experience is about 9,093 per hour. Unless i've done something extremely wrong (feel free to point out if you see an error) then the amount of experience per hour is about equal to Slayer. However the profit is less. Keep in mind, while you may get 100k per hour, I only got about 94k. The 'average' player isn't always going to get the max amount of experience. Even using those numbers, the Zombies gets about 726 more experience per hour at the cost of 10,504 gp+ (as the profit was 135k+ for Slayer as I showed on the prvious page, or 2 pages back, can't remember). So for Zombies to be worth it, you have to be able to make about 2,060,665 per hour. While the idea of this is correct, if by "good" they mean "efficient" then Slayer is your best bet. Compfreak has listed 2 methods which he said were better, not many. After testing, the Monkies were proven worse, and Armoured Zombies appear to be worse than Slayer after testing. More testing is needed to get more accurate results. P.S. I was right about the first post before as shown with sonicwarrior's reply. He referred to the Monkies, which by now we all know is worse than Slayer by a great deal.

From the guide I referred to (which I posted this about 2 pages back I think), it was about 95k melee experience on average per hour. That gains you about 31.7k Hitpoints experience which is 126.7k experience per hour. I'm not sure on how much Summoning experience you would average from the charm drops however, but it would have to be a decent amount to get more experience than Slayer. Slayer was worked out to be about 141.7k experience per hour, counting in Slayer, melee, Range, Hitpoints and Summoning experience. Slayer also was worked out to be 135k profit per hour and higher. That is up to 15k less experience per hour by doing the Zombies. Also, the average profit rate given was 145k per hour. On the previous page (I think), you say the money made per hour from Spiritual mages was 550k. Since this thread is about Slayer you could assume that the average player doing Slayer would use this as a money maker (unless they had a better one). For the loss in experience at Armoured Zombies to be worth it, you would need to make at least 193,222 profit per hour from Armoured Zombie to be worth it. At 190k, the profit required for Slayer to be more efficient is 519,567 per hour. I am pretty sure the average player will not average 190k profit per hour from the Armoured Zombies, or any player for that matter. The problem is I need to add in the experience from the Summoning charms, but I don't know how much that is. I think I see what you mean, you thought I was saying they didn't require any levels period. I was simply referring to his theory that slayer 'provides access' to specific monsters, and introduces them to get you training - I was demonstrating that slayer had nothing to do with those two monsters. That was my mistake then, that was how I interpretted what you said. He could argue that Spiritual Mages make you go there, but by the time your at that level, i'm sure the player would already know about the Aviansies.