ydrasil

For timing I am using a stopwatch, there is no other choice that is as accurate. As I did mentioned when you originally asked this, I didn't time inbetween tasks. This is because inbetween tasks I was inputting the data which I had just collected. Of course it is standardized for every task. As for rare drops, I also mentioned this when I posted this the first time round when you asked. At the moment they are left as they are as they are generally not to far off what is commonly perceived as the drop rate. They might be slightly higher (or in some cases lower) but overall reasonably close. So for these major details I supposedly missed, I find it odd that I have answered these questions so many times before. Any other questions now? At Gargoyles yes the space is cramped, but that doesn't make a combat familiar not worth using. At Black Demons especially I have no idea how you can say it is cramped. There is more than enough space for a combat familiar to attack, not to mention if done a certain way you can limit/exclude it from 'dancing' with the Demon. This situation is even more noticeable now with the Demons in Taverly now dropping charms. Much more room, multicombat, what reason to not use it now? You still claim they do no significant good, yet my results say otherwise, or do you just plan on ignoring those? Yes, the cannon part is nothing but opinionated and contains nothing factual. You keep forgetting that a familiar only can attack one NPC at a time. Hence, if it is always attacking at least one NPC, it is being used to its full effect. Specifically due to the cannon, you are being attacked by alot of Dagannoths simultaneously, this only casuses the familiar to be continuously attacking. Your statement just after this only emphasises your subjectivity. "if I can do a dagganoth task in 20 minutes, the XP from a familiar is a lot smaller then, say, a 45 minute task." You seem to be purposely twisting the way you convey this idea to try and show that a familiar is not worth it. Of course what you say is true, but that is irrelevant. it is quite obvious that in a shorter amount of time the familiar will not do as much damage, but that is irrelevant, and you know it (if you didn't actually know this, then everything you have said on this matter is essentially invalid). What I am referring to is quite simple. On the same NPC, whether in 20 minute time span of a 20 hour time span, it will still attack and do damage at the same ratio. I have no way to explain it any clearer, other than to furthur reinforce it with an example: In 20 minutes a Geyser Titan gets you 4,000 experience. In 45 minutes a Geyser Titan gets you 9,000 experience. Of course you got less experience in a shorter amount of time, but you still experience at the same rate, and that is all that is important. How does using prayer imply it is a pain? As you have mentioned you use a Unicorn, which also implies I can do it the same way if I wished. Yet I choose not to. As for the pots, that isn't an issue. There is only one task that ever have to take two trips to complete, and that is Skeletal Wyverns, and that also depends on task number. Again, i'll also mention that taverly dungeon can be used as an alternative as those graphical types of Demons drop charms now, so that point is irrelevant. Nechryaels are easy to do without a Unicorn. I have never once used one there and have always completed the task in one trip. While it may make it harder, it does not instantly make it hard. As in it does not jump from an easy task to a hard task, what about the inbetween parts? Again i'll mention that if you can do a task surviving on only food and a SGS (Excalibur works also), or using prayer, then why would you give up the extra benefit of a combat familiar? There are actually very few tasks that require a healing familiar or a BOB. Skeletal Wyverns is one, Mithril dragons is another (but can be done without anyway due to small task number), Scabarites (and again, due to the speed of the task can also be done without, a combat familiar is much better here). That is all I can think of that really needs a Unicorn. There are others, but those are single combat, just as the Mithril Dragons and Skeletal Wyverns. So really there is only one task where you really have to choose and that is for Scabarites.

Ah ok. Now that makes even less sense to me though. What does how much area the familiar take up have to do with anything? Not to mention they both take up 4 anyway (unless I am not remembering correctly). While is is true at chaos tunnels, even in full worlds you can them faster than the next one spawns, that does not make a combat familiar worthless. Faster kills means overall it will spawn again sooner than without a familiar. I know that isn't phrased the best as the spawn time is essentially a constant. An example of what I mean is without a familiar you kill in 20 seconds, in then respawns in say 30. With a familiar you kill in 15 and it respawns in 30. So while it takes the same time to respawn, you are still going to be getting experience at a faster rate, and as such a combat familiar is always worth using (especially seeing as the cost of a pouch is so small, it would be foolish not to utilize them). With the 50k melee experience, compfreak847 is referring to the fact that melee requires two skills to train compared to Magic having only one (Attack+Strength vs Magic). I guess it is also possible to argue it is three skills, as the majority of players train Defence via melee.

First of all, I have to add this: Yah someone thinks what I say matters :lol: . Please explain what you mean by details and how they are cryptic (maybe you don't know what cryptic actually means?). You also imply that I posted all that and left without adding anything to it. All someone has to do is look back to that page and the next and can see that is not the case. You asked a few questions, which I answered (not to mention your replies indicated that you didn't actually read what I posted properly). After it was just that you couldn't 'swallow' the rates I was showing. Finally for the last nail in the coffin you posted this on the next page (which shows you understood it, so it wasn't cryptic. Also note that you never asked for anymore information on my rates after this point, so what were these so called details that were missing that were not missing the first time?): I have mentioned every task I do and don't do, I mention which tasks I use which prayer on, I mention which tasks I use a cannon on, I have also shown that my rates are pretty accurate averages from the amount of time each was assigned. Hundreds of tasks would be more accurate, but you could hardly say the rates supplied are out by much. I mentioned in words what I am averaging overall for each skill, and the table shows the same thing, but more information of each task individually. So what detail am I missing? Every quesion you previously asked I had answered, so obviously I wasn't missing the detail then. The only things I can think of is the outfit I wear (which I posted many many times earlier in the thread). I don't see what you mean by charms being compared to Waterfiends, (as in which part you are specifically referring to in my post). In another thread of yours you posted in general guides on bursting Rock Lobsters I responded there and showed my numbers which was that barrage is more efficient than burst. I also posted barrage in comparison to Waterfiends, and that Waterfiends is more efficient. You find combat familiars almost worthless, but your reasons are opinionated and untrue in most cases. Such as saying on tasks with a cannon they are especially worthless due to the cannon. The familiar only has to be attacking one NPC and they immediately being used to their full potential. It doesn't matter if the cannon is attacking and killing 10 others, and that you are killing them also, the familiar can only attack one at a time and it does that all the time. The most simple way to explain they aren't worthless is that on tasks where you can get by without needing to bank for more food, why would you not utilize the faster experience gained by having a combat familiar. I fail to see how Black Demons are a huge pain with prayer. Your are forced to use it or go on the west side of the chaos tunnels.... wait what?!?! It is a pain to use prayer because you will have to use it!?!!?! Z0MG!!! I have no idea how that applies to Bloodvelds either. With Gargoyles, I don't use proselyte, that is more than likely your problem. On a tasks of these you should only wear proselyte if you are using piety, and if thats the case the +25% Defence more than compensates in my experience. As for what I wear, it is simple really and only changes slightly depending on task. Bandos armour, Fire Cape, Slayer Helm, Dragon Boots, Fury, Whip, Rune Defender, Berserker Ring, "Barrows" Gloves. That is my standard outfit. If I am fighting Dragons, the Defender switches to a DFS. If it is a task of Gargoyles or Waterfiends, I swap to a Saradomin Sword, and with Waterfiends I also swap to Karil's armour. On tasks where I have a protection prayer on all the time I have prayer bonus increasing armour on (but not always). Such as Proselyte top and bottom for Black Demons, Proselyte top and Zamorak Robe Bottoms for Spiritual Mages. At Mithril Dragons I use piety and protection prayer but I use my standard outfit still, same as at Wyverns. You reasoning for not using a combat familiar at Nechryaels, is that you couldn't see yourself doing it? What does that really mean? That you have grown accustomed to the Unicorn and don't want to swap to a combat familiar? I have more than enough Hitpoints from sources other than a Unicorn to sustain me the entire task, so why would I give up the increased experience of my Geyser Titan? Abyssal Demons you can use either a Bunyip or Unicorn, either will suffice, I already mentioned this. Suqahs are indeed fast but that does not make a combat familiar worthless. Even if what you say is true about the respawns being the limiting factor. That means the time from this task comes from waiting for spawns correct? Since that cannot be changed, why not increase the rate at which you can kill Suqahs to make the task even faster? Come on, seriously, your reasoning for not using a combat familiar on almost any task is based on fallacies. They are shown wrong by simple observation of using a combat familiar. Unicorn requires a pouch and scrolls, maybe 2 pouches depending on task length. This means it will only take up one or two spaces (as you summon one of them at the start of task opening the inven space). A Geyser Titan requires a pouch (which you summon at the start of a task), and as such used up no inventory space on task. How on earth do you work out a Geyser requires more? You only ever need the one pouch (except on longer tasks of Mages when it may die, and in that case inventory space is not an issue). So that point is... pointless.

Oh this is almost painful. The amount of stupid posts that have built up is what I am talking about. What is also noticeable is people still think Armoured Zombies are incontravertibly faster. Just to recap this is from where I replied with information about tasks I logged rates for: [hide=Quote] [/hide] Also here was the picture I posted: [hide=Picture][/hide] There have been many people saying it is worse money, experience and charms. Why people say charms I have absolutely no idea, 9k Summoning experience worth of charms per hour at Armoured Zombies.... you're right! That is so unbeatable. The 31.2k I get from doing Slayer is entirely irrelevant (even at lower levels it is still high). When Slaying efficiently, it is more combat experience per hour, and even more overall experience per hour. The profit is about 80k at the most less than Zombies per hour. For the difference between Magic and Melee experience, i'm not sure what compfreak847 identifies by his definition of 'hard'. The difference is 50k experience compared to Magic's 126k (that is what I was getting Barraging Rock Lobsters). However there is also the difference in profit of 190k for melee (compfreak's rate) and -972k for Magic (approx). For the record, charms don't cancel out the cost of Barraging in my opinion. There is no set worth for charms, there is an approximate cost but that is all and that is dependant on method. The point is, going simply by experience and profit, unless you make over about 1.6mil per hour, the melee experience gained at Zombies is more efficient to get than the Magic experience at Lobsters. As for familiars, these are of course worth using. The argument that you don't get a Wolpertinger till the last few levels doesn't really work. You gain Summoning and Slayer experience at essentially the same rate, hence gettting 92 at the same time. Still halfway to 99. Up until then there are other combat familiars worth using. Also to compfreak847, your listing of the only tasks they can be used on is (in my opinion) pathetic. Not for the amount, but that you actually believe that combat familiars are not worth using. Going through the list of tasks, you say a Macaw is best for Spectres. If I wanted I could bank midway through the task to drop off herbs (and with slayer ring it doesn't take that long really), I prefer to simply do it in one trip for the faster experience. That doesn't make either way necessarily better as i'm not sure how much experience was from my familiar or how much of an impact a macaw has. Abyssal Demons you can't use a combat familiar at anyway so a Unicorn is the best option although not entirely needed. With Black Demons in Chaos tunnels I get about 10k experience directly from my Geyser Titan. With the fix of drop rates of charms for the other graphical types of them, Taverly is now an option to kill them at. This will make the Geyser have a greater effect and hence even more experience. Black Dragons I get 11.2k from the Geyser. Bloodvelds I don't know the amount, but that doesn't mean it is worthless. You say it is outshone by the cannon, but that does not mean that a familiar can no longer help. Not to mention no other type of familiar can help, what better choice than the help of a familiar? Dagannoths, again I do not know, and again the same reasoning as for Bloodvelds. It will have a pretty decent effect considering you are always being attacked, hence it is always attacking. Length of task is irrelevant as it will still correlate into a sizeable xp/h. I personally don't use them at Dust Devils, but that a Geyser will get about 10k experience (from Zarfot's guide). Fire Giants I am not sure on. Atm I cannon them in the Waterfall so no combat familiar. However using one in the chaos tunnels will get slower experience, unless maybe if you have a Iron/Steel Titan. At Gargoyles I don't see how you can believe that you need a Unicorn. Using a Unicorn I rarely need to use the scrolls to heal, a small amount of food and a SGS suffices. Mith Dragons aren't multi. Nechryaels are a great task to use a combat familiar on, I get about 11.2k with my Geyser. At Scabarites, a task can easily be done with only food, so a Geyser will help alot. Wyverns aren't multi and at Spiritual Mages I get about 7.8k with a Geyser. Suqahs are good for it also and Waterfiends aren't multi. Every task not mentioned I don't do.

I am certain that drop rate is higher than 1/700, it is somewhere around 1/400 to 1/450. Since it is a rate of 65k melee xp/h, that means you get 108.3 kills per hour, which is approximately 1/4 of a Whip every hour. Only taking that into account results in about 375k profit per hour, however the other drops are not worthless. On Slayer I get over 150k per hour from all drops exlcuding the Whip, so the average rate for off Slayer will be slightly less, around 125k. So it is about 500k profit per hour for camping Abyssal Demons. While you get about 35 crimsons per hour camping, you will get about 17 gold, 5 green and 2 blue charms. This is about 17k Summoning experience, maybe less depending on what you are able to make. If you add up all the experience gained, you get roughly (65,000+21,666+17,000) 103.7k experience. Armoured Zombies is (103,000+34,333+9000) 146.3k experience per hour (according to compfreak847, also the 9k is for experience form the charms). Also profit rates would be 500k and 190k respectively. In short, for Abyssal Demons to gain the same amount of experience as Armoured Zombies would in one hour, would take approximately 1.41 hours. In that amount of time you would gain 705.4k profit. Armoured Zombies now has 0.41 hours to make back the 895.4k (705.4+190). This requires about 2.18mil per hour to be made. After all that, what does it show? Absolutely nothing :lol: . This thread was intended to show that Slayer "sucks" for combat experience by showing a method that is considered to be more efficient (and at my Slayer rates, Slayer wins). It isn't a comparison of a whole skill to one monster exactly, it is a comparison of the rate of combat experience gotten in each. P.S For picking up any drop (charms or otherwise), if timed right you lose no time at all.

Here, 3rd Paragraph: Also I'll post a picture of the summarised section of my results: [hide=Slayer Table][/hide] Each cell is an average for the amount of samples (tasks) indicated on the right. I admit my Abyssal Demons rate might be slightly high as well as my Spiritual Mages. The Demons used to be about about 150k profit per hour, but I have since gotten 4 Whip drops from the 1,470 kills on task. With the Mages, On my first task of 133 I got 3 Dragons boots, and on the 3rd task I got one. Also, here is an ample of what I put in for each task (image is a little small for some reason, still big enough to read it though): [hide=Example][/hide]

I read the first two sentences and was like :wall: . I mentioned the melee experience per hour I was getting in that post. Just like before I had mentioned the tasks I cannoned and you asked about that also. I didn't work out the average rate I get each charm either (although I could if I wanted). I simply totalled the amount of Summoning experience those charms would give me and converted to an hourly rate. Using my average of 406.4 per crimson would infer I am getting 147.7 crimsons worth per hour, not getting 147 actual crimson charms though. I don't see how you find it "difficult to swallow". I am averaging 168 kills per hour. I use Karils top and bottom, Slayer Helm, Fury, Fire Cape, Berserker Ring, Dragon Boots, "Barrows" Gloves and a Saradomin Sword. I also use my Saradomin Godsword for specials. I don't include banking time, as I can't time that whilst logging the data from each task. I do that in between tasks and that is far from instantaneous to do. Also with Scabarites, this is one of the best possible tasks you can get. It is possible to get up to the rate of 60k Slayer experience per hour, I am only getting 49k (but I don't use a combat familiar, I use a unicorn... although really I should switch to a Geyser as I can easily take enough food per task and it would increase my rate), I am getting 62.7k Summoning experience per hour in charms, 73.2k Range, 57.7k melee and 19.2k Hitpoints. An overall experience of 261.5k per hour, beaten only by Dagannoths. I am however losing 510.7k per hour on this task. So you should consider doing them. I am unsure what you are trying to get at with when you mention piety. "The level of a task really shouldn't affect the XP boost gotten with piety" - This means? The bit after it also makes no sense what so ever. What the level of the task (no idea what level you are referring to, maybe Slayer, but makes even less sense) has to do with experience rates, I am unsure. This last bit "because accuracy and strength are both being boosted, defence level of the respective monster does not change the outcome." So because you have an increased chance to hit, as well as the ability to hit higher, and since the defence of the NPC doesn't change... that must mean that piety doesn't help? I must be missing something because I am so lost with what you are trying to convey. I remember seeing you slaying Nicrune007 only yesterday (I think?). So good luck with that : .

I mentioned I only used a cannon on 6 tasks, they are listed in the second paragraph. Tha average rate for Range is across all tasks as per hour. For example (all for Range), I am getting 73k per hour at Aberrant Spectres, 10k at Black Demons, 119.2k at Dagannoths, 0 for 6 tasks. So it is across all of them. I mentioned that my Summoning rate will be slightly higher compared to others since I am using my average (mentioned above). Even without it would still be quite high. I don't see how it is unrealistic either. Out of all the tasks I do, only one does not give charms (Spiritual Mages). Suqahs give the next lowest amount of about 6.5k. Then it continues up to 60k from Waterfiends and 62.7k at Scabarites. With the melee experience, it has little to do with better prayers. Piety is only used on 3 tasks. Mithil Dragons where the experience rate is only 38k per hour anyway, Skeletal Wyverns for 73k per hour, it would provide a good boost here. Finally it is used on Waterfiends, and I get 86.8k experience on them. Overall, those 3 tasks I piety on compared to superhuman strength provides a boost to the overall average, but nothing overly significant. It simply means the rate was always understated as 65k. Also a final note, the averages are of course based on you having an equal chance to get every task. Although I myself don't believe that to be quite true and that there must be something that affects it. Since we can't know the rate each task is given, I have simply used equal opportunity.

I actually want to change the numbers I discussed earlier in this thread. Most of them were just guesses really than real rates. I have been doing Slayer recently and have logged all of the 72 tasks I have done so far. As a sidenote, I also went from 84 Slayer to 87, will ahve 88 soon : . I also level'd Attacl/Strength/Defence/Range up by one. I have blocked Hellhounds, Greater Demons, Iron and Steel Dragons, and I cancel Warped Terrorbirds, Goraks and Kalphites. The blocked tasks give low experience rates (although Iron Dragons are faster than Skeletal Wyverns, and all are faster than Mithril Dragons), Terrorbirds are great experience, but I just don't like them. Goraks also good experience but no good drops or charms, and Kalphites are always packed in my experience. Also note I use superhuman strength as a minimum on every task, on some tasks I instead used piety. Those tasks are Waterfiends, Skeletal Wyverns and Mithril Dragons (although I did use it on one task of Abyssal Demons, and still profited). I use a cannon on only 6 tasks, these are; Aberrant Spectres, Bloodvelds, Dagannoths, Fire Giants, Scabarites and Suqahs. Also note that my rates are gotten from having done 3-9 tasks for each NPC except for Fire Giants where I only have the one. The rates I have been getting far exceed what I had originally said. I had originally said that the rate for Slayer per hour was about 22.5k. Over the course of these 72 tasks, I have been averaging 30.8k per hour. For melee experience per hour I originally stated it was 65k (although at the time i said I believed it was higher), I am currently averaging 75.6k per hour. Hitpoints branchs off of that and I am getting 26.7k per hour. I said Range was 12.5k (for no other reason than it combining with 65k melee experience to add up to 22.5k Slayer xp/h), I am currently averaging 30.5k per hour. All of that experience comes from either my cannon, or Geyser Titan. Finally, I originally said Summoning was about 18k per hour, I am currently averaging 31.3k per hour. It will be lower for some people as I am using the average experience for me for crimson charms (i.e from 89-99 Summoning, which is about 406.4 per crimson). That all adds up to 194.9k Overall experience per hour, or 164.1k if you exclude Slayer (for whatever reason). I also am currently making a profit of 12.5k per hour (I am so rich! :lol: ). However, the average time per task for me is 34:40 approximately. This means I am completeing 1.73 tasks per hour, for 41.6 Slayer points per hour, for 1.2 Slayer Dart Packages, for 93.5k per hour. That all adds up to making 106k per hour of profit. This profit can be increased in certain areas for a reduction in experience. For example, instead of killing Fire Giants in the Waterfall with a cannon, you could use a combat familiar in the Chaos Tunnels. That would make that task profit and hence increase the average profit rate. Also, while I am not entirely sure on this since I am not 90+ Slayer, Dark Beasts might profit and also result in a higher profit. Also according to Zarfot's guide it gets 32.6k Slayer experience per hour, so it results in a higher average experience per hour. Using these numbers compared to what you say the rate is at Armoured Zombies (103k melee experience per hour and 190k profit, I used 9k per hour for Summoning experience also), we can see what is needed for Slayer to be more efficient. Making a comparison with only combat experience (i.e no Slayer experience) the comparison is 146.3k experience with 190k profit to 164.1k experience and 106k profit. This makes the profit required for Slayer to be efficient to be 776.7k per hour. So already it is possible for Slayer to be more efficient. If you value Slayer experience (and in my opinion, I see no reason why wouldn't), then the comparison is essentially the same but with 194.9k experience per hour with Slayer. This makes the profit required for Slayer to be more efficient as 337k. That amount is easily attainable. In short, how can Slayer 'suck' for combat experience if it averages 17.7k more combat experience per hour than Armoured Zombies. Not to mention that you get a decent amount of profit and the Slayer experience you get also.

Now we're getting somewhere. The mage is NOT using melee equipment. The reason he isn't is because (1) Melee armor subtracts from magic attack bonuses (2) Wearing melee weapons means that the mage isn't actually a mage, but is a meleer. The warrior IS using ranged armor, because for some absurd reason Jagex decided it likes melee better and that ranged armor wouldn't subtract from melee attack bonuses, after all. A sad attempt at balance, on Jagex's part. You are trying to argue that the Mage suddenly is no longer a mage because they can attack with the whip? That by equipping a a Whip they become a meleer, but in magic robes. If as you have mentioned many times that class is dictated by damage dealt, the Mage can still use magic, regardless of what weapon is equipped. The truth is they are hybriding. The same is said for the Warrior who uses Range armour. What dictates what you are is both weapon and armour. The easiest way to explain this to you is that the armour has a requirement in the type of combat it is used primarily for. Example being Ahrim's requires 70 Magic, Black Dragon hide requires 70 Range.

You're not talking about Dust Devils are you? Dust Devils are pretty weak to slash attacks. Armored zombies are even weaker, with the +25% attack and +20% strength advantage you will hit much more. Piety gives +20% Attack, +23% Strength and +25% Defence. You've mixed them up a few times : . Also, the advantage you are trying to give piety isn't as high as you have been stating. it is +20% Attack difference, but only +13% to Strength. I went over this in comparison to Zombie Monkies, and I can only assume it is the same case for this. The reason you have a high hit rate on Armoured Zombies is due to piety. On Dust Devils, I was hitting about 95% of the time (or something close to that number, can't remember exactly, but it was in the video I posted many pages back). Keep in mind that wasn't with piety, using piety on the Zombie Monkies resulted in something like a 90% hit rate. So even with the +20% to Attack, you were hitting less often. This is most likely the case with Armoured Zombies.

I couldn't find the page again where the first part of the quote came from, but this is how it progressed: how do u get 300k loot on a waterfiends taks? i usualy waste money on the ppots :? Loot... not counting how much i lost from pots etc... There was this furthur down the page: how do u get 300k loot on a waterfiends taks? i usualy waste money on the ppots :? At a max of 200 assigned per task making 1.5k cash per waterfiend isn't possible. These were the points I was responding to. As the original quote says, it was 300k in loot. Loot is what the drops received are worth, not profit. In the second part of quotes shows where pureprayer says it is impossible. That was the entire point of my post. I wasn't trying to argue the overall profit rates. On another note, just had a task of 184 Dust Devils. I surprised myself with the rate I was getting. Was only using superhuman strength, and no combat familiar. Completed in 42:16 minutes which makes the rate of experience 110.1k.

No, no, no. You missed the entire point of why I posted that information. A few pages back (can't remember who) mentioned it was 300k per hour. It was mentioned the fact that supplies wasn't counted in, and the same person who originally posted said that was the case. So that person was talking about net gain to get 300k, which is what I was backing up. As for profit, I have mentioned in both previous posts. The profit that I was getting is 170k.

I wasn't missing the factor of the Slayer Helm. I mentioned the fact that I was on Slayer and I also then dropped the rate by 10%. Maybe you are right though, maybe that wasn't enough. As for the experience, I also mentioned it may or may not still be worth "depending on how you value experience". So I wasn't missing either factor. Having lowered the rate by 10% got the rates in my previous post. If I lower the rate by 18.5%, This brings it down to 110 crimson per hour, with a profit of 138.5k. I'll ignore Bursting, It isn't even in the running as it is less efficient than Barraging. For Barraging to be more efficient requires to make about 1.32mil per hour. If you lower the rate by 25.9%, that means you get 100 crimsons per hour with a profit of about 126k. For Barraging to be more efficient requires you make about 1.12mil per hour. So unless you are saying the Slayer Helm increased speed by over 26% (which I doubt it even did close to that), the for most players, Barraging isn't the most efficient way. Also, for the experience. It is about 126,500 Magic experience per hour Barraging while getting 67,500 Hitpoints experience from what I have done. With Waterfiends (reducing the rate I got on Slayer by 18.5%), you are getting about 70.4k melee experience and 23.4k Hitpoints experience.

Making 300k per hour isn't unrealistic. Considering I made a net gain for up to 336k on one trip, and yes, that was with piety. I don't see how the Slayer Helm is changing the numbers... This was for the money made on Slayer is it not? So a Slayer helm is better than no Slayer Helm. You must be doing something wrong (like not picking up all good drops) to only end up with the outcome of 'lucky to break even.' Also to y_guy_4_life, you might not have understood properly. The average net gain was over 300k, but that is not profit. I specifically stated that. The average profit is much lower at about 170k (might be lower or higher, when I get more tasks of Waterfiends i'll get a better average).

Just to add something here, someone mentioned a few pages back about Waterfiends making 300k per hour. Many people disagreed and essentially said that wasn't possible. Having been doing Slayer recently, using piety on tasks, I want to point out that making 300k is quite possible. My net gain from Waterfiends per hour ranges from 260-336k per hour, averaging at 308k. So yes, this is quite possibly the case. If I had used only superhuman strength compared to piety, my net gain from drops would be less due to less kills per hour. Keep in mind that this was net gain, not profit. My profit with piety is actually about 170k per hour. With superhuman strength, I am unsure if it would be higher or lower. You would receive less money per hour from drops, but you spend less on supplies. Either way, you are getting quite a decent amount from them :thumbsup: .

Although this is sort of a continuation of being off-topic as previous replies, i'll post it here anyway. I used to think Barraging/Bursting was the fastest and most efficient way to get charms. I've no doubt that it is still fastest, but I now believe it to be less efficient when compared to Waterfiends (for most if not all people, depending on value of experience in their method of obtaining money). I used to use the comparison that Waterfiends broke even, and that you got 100 crimsons per hour at them. During Slayer recently, I have been getting them at a rate of about 135 per hour, whilst my profit ranged from 122-200k (averaging 170k). While I admit it won't be exact, I lowered the charms received by 10% as well as profit (about 120 crimsons and 153k profit). Using that as a comparison to Bursting, it requires you make about 2.47mil per hour to be more efficient. Comparing to Barraging it requires you make 1.57mil per hour to be more efficient. So it is unlikely for most players for Bursting/Barraging to actually be more efficient.

Thread is still going :lol: . This has got to be the longest (non-sticky) thread in the rants forum by now. Just to back-up what compfreak847 said, if all experience is counted in, yes you do get more experience per hour than the Zombies. You also get less profit (exact amount difference is too hard to determine). However, only counting Combat experience, you do get less with Slayer when compared to Zombies (I think it was about 19k less to combat with Slayer). However, I wouldn't say that it sucks. It is a far better option than nearly every other way in the game as it has a higher combat experience rate and reasonable profit. The only method that has any counter to this is the Armoured Zombies. It is my opinion that if you count the Zombies as the best way, then Slayer is the second best way. While TheDayRsDied may not have read everything entirely, not everything in the post was false either. The point is, Slayer and Armoured Zombies are the two best ways to train in the game (in my opinion). As for which is better comes down to the individual person.

While I agree some players might that get that rate, some get higher. I get a noticeable amount higher, and from Zarfot's results he got in the order of 160k (overall) or so per hour. As for it being argument closed, i'll sum it up as: End of thread and win-win? That is awesome :thumbsup: .

I'll be honest, i'm not so sure it was a misinterpretation. You were right that it was the Summoning experience per hour, but you compared it wrong, which made me think you misinterpretted and hence made me misinterpret... if that makes sense :lol: . You compared getting 86k (although it rounds to 87k) to the number you had of 101k. That 101k is the amount of experience per hour you are getting for Magic, whereas the 86k was from my numbers for Summoning experience per hour. It made me think that you thought the 86k was for Magic, as you compared it to the Magic rate you had, and I replied as such. So you did get it right that it was the Summoning experience, but you compared it to magic, which is wrong. The proper comparison is this (all rates are based on an hourly basis): Ice Burst...........................................Ice Burst 7 Lobster Area.....................................9 Lobster Area 74k Magic experience.............................70k Magic experience* 74k Summoning experience......................70k Summoning experience 898k Cost...........................................729k Cost Ice Barrage........................................Ice Barrage 7 Lobster Area.....................................9 Lobster Area 101k Magic experience...........................127k Magic experience X Summoning experience~........................87k Summoning experience 1,378k Cost.........................................930k Cost ~I put X amount because you never gave an amount. *I don't actually know the value of experience per hour while using Ice burst at the 9 Lobster area. I used the ratio you got at the 7 and gave it to the 9 by doing the following working: 74,180 Magic experience per hour at 7 Lobster spot (approximately). 42,180 Magic experience per hour from damage (take of 32k from the amount of casts 800*40). 42,180 * 9/7 = 54,231 (gets the approximate experience from damage you would killing 9 at a time compared to 7). 54,231 * 650/800 = 44,063 (650 casts per hour compared to 800) 44,063 + 26,000 = 70,063 (adding on experience from the actualy casts 650*40) Essentially the same experience per hour, the only difference being this is cheaper experience. You use 150 less casts but because you are attacking 9 compared to 7 you get more experience from doing damage and hence that outcome. Also, I know about the 7 lobster area, that is the one I used originally. Just to clarify, I wasn't intending to to actually show you are wrong or anything. I just felt since I also know a decent amount on this subject that I could add to it is all : . [side note] Ooh ooh, my turn for a side note 8-) . Only famous person I met there was Zezima. As you can also see, I use math alot (here and in many other threads I have posted in). I just find math to have a certain quality to it that I enjoy. Some say it makes me sound like a nerd or something :geek: , but I don't mind. There are people who find math beautiful (or something like that), I don't like it in that way though. I just enjoy the aspect of the logical and rational reasoning that you go through to get the desired answer. Hence why I post alot of math and such in my posts : . Anyway, there is my side note [/side note]

It is true though. I won't deny (nor have I done so) that Armoured Zombies are more combat experience per hour then Slayer. That doesn't instantly mean Slayer sucks though. Slayer gets more overall experience per hour but less combat compared to Armoured Zombies. Unless I am mistaken, the original idea in this thread was you ranting about how others suggest players to train Slayer for combat experience, and that you made this thread trying to say Slayer wasn't the best way, is that not correct? You tried to give evidence to this by comparing it to Zombie Monkies which was later proven to be inefficient. Zombie Monkies gave more combat experience as well as overall experience per hour (1.6k difference). However it was at the loss of 245k per hour. Put simply, i've not been trying to argue that Slayer gives more combat experience per hour. I have been trying to show that it is still great experience and that you had been purposely understating Slayer to prove your point (which if you look back was the intial reasoning behind my first post - Started post on page 6 by the way). The difference is with Slayer you get about 120k combat experience per hour and 22.5k slayer experience per hour, with Armoured Zombies you get up to 136k combat/overall experience per hour (numbers I have got).

I don't recall saying or showing it was 86k xp/h barraging. I mentioned in was about 126k. I average about 540 casts per hour and about 235 or so experience per cast. That means 28,080 of that experience is coming simply from casting the spell. This means 49,410 damage is being done per hour approximately. That is an average of 91.5 a cast, which is 10.2 per Lobster per cast. I'm not sure how this changes anything with the Waterfiends. I am also unsure about you saying they cannot be compared because the figures are different. Yours is based on the 7 spot, mine on the 9 spot. I wasn't comparing them exactly, just showing the threshold for barrage to be more efficient than burst, which I got to be 102k. Logically, that means to me it is 102k on top of what bursting requires, and yet when compared to Waterfiends it contradicts that. It requires about 210k less per hour to be more efficient. This means bursting is more expensive than barraging (in the sense that it doesn't save enough time to be worth it). Rounding up might have been more practical, but I just did the equation of sum to infinity for a geometric series. The formula is Sum(infinity) = a/(1-r). This only works for series where |r| < 1. In this case r is 0.7, and a is 1. It shows that for every shard you buy, you can get the equivalent of 3 1/3 shards out of it when traded in an infinite number of times. This essentially just shows what you posted above (total shards*0.3). Say over the course to 99 Summoning you need 5,000,000 shards, that means you need to buy a minimum of 1,500,000 shards. Since it is impossible to trade them in an infinite number of times, it is really slightly higher. So it is really better off using a number of about 0.32-0.35. Yes that sometimes happens, the easiest way to rectify being simply do not use a full world. There is no need to be one as the faster spawns do not help significantly at all. Even if it does come up, there is still a way to stop taking damage, or being hit even. You pick up the drops first, then there is slight alcove on the opposite side of the turn. Standing there means it cannot reach you and no other Lobster will try and attack either. Out of curiosity, do you lure all 7 in that area or just 6? Doing 6 requires only 2 steps where doing all 7 requires 3-4 steps to do it best. That was the case for me anyway.

That is a reasonable way to sum it up. However think of it this way (using same example with Whip that people have been using, but different view). You buy the Whip for 40 mil, hence you were willing to pay that much (maybe even higher), hence you value you it as at least 40 mil. It drops to 2 mil. Your point is the cash value of this item has dropped 38 mil which is true enough. If the player sells it for 2mil, yes they lost money. However, ask yourself, why did they sell it for 2mil? Was it because that is the current price now? No it can't be, because if that was the case they would have sold it earlier for more money. They sold it because to them it lost value. The use of the item for them is only worth 2 mil. So in that respect, yes it has dropped. Really nothing changed as to what you were saying, I just think it seems slightly different (but that might just be me : ). In my case with the Saradomin Godsword I have, is it really fair to say I lost cash value on it? I got it for free (essentially) and never intended to sell. Anything I sell it for is still profit. Yes I could have got 67mil more for it than I could now, but then I would not of had the item for the time frame that I had it. Don't get me wrong, I do agree with what you are saying, I just think of it from a different perspective.

That is true to an extent. It is also about how you value total experience and total level, not just Slayer. Since overall you get more total experience per hour with Slayer, you also get more total levels per hour (not really per hour, but you get the idea, I am talking of the average) compared to Armoured Zombies.

Well at least it shows SS is better after all, however the Scimitar wasn't in this place. You would also find over the course of time you would have to spend more to keep your Hitpoints up with the TokTz-Xil-Ak combination. Perhaps you could do more tests on different NPCs? That is true. It is spelt "artifact" but pronouced as "artefact". Although I have seen it spelt like artefact many times, but I believe the main way is the former.