ydrasil

Ahh so I didn't get it quite right, my mistake. Even still, I'd like to think the example I provided is still relevant to this, thought not as much now I'll admit. However, I do understand what your point is. Some people try to use any excuse available to try and shift the blame from themselves. Anyway, that was really the only point I was going to bring up and for the record I am pro-choice.

This is mainly directed at Zierro, but anyone can reply to it. I understand that you do advocate pro-choice, but that it is your opinion that you believe they should have the baby. The reasoning you gave was that they are responsible for it because they knew in advance (whether protection was used or not) that this was a possible outcome. Stop me if I've interpreted wrongly. However, I'm going to take it to an extreme example. Say a couple has been together for many years and over the course of their relationship have had say 10 children (whether protection was used or not when any were conceived isn't relevant). However they realise that they cannot afford to have another baby nor do they wish to even if they could afford it. Obviously by this time in a relationship sex is an integral part so simply them never having sex again isn't an option. They become incredibly paranoid about not having a baby so they go to an extreme in preventive measures (abstinence isn't really an option of course). They use multiple contraceptives to prevent pregnancy including condoms, spermicide, diaphragm, vasectomy, tubal ligation, IUS, IUD, coitus interruptus (withdrawl), NFP, morning-after pill as well as any other forms on contraceptives that can be used without interfering with the others. After all this effort and against all odds, they manage to conceive another child. Now if I interpreted your opinion correctly (and I believe I have), then it would mean you think they should have the baby because even though protection was used they knew it was a possibility and are therefore responsible for it. So in this instance, do you agree with the opinion that they should have the baby for the reason stated? (Yes I know you are for the pro-choice, but I am asking for you opinion of what they should do.

Nope. I'll give you a hint with this one. The first line gets you one word, the second line gets you another word. The third line tells you what to do, and fourth describes the final answer. But maybe I've said too much :-# . Try not to think about them too hard either, the answer is usually quite easy.

[hide=]Die? Not sure why I put the extra d in there.[/hide] Correct :thumbsup: . There is still 2 more left to answer: [hide=3]I am the weakest thing alive, Yet dauntless with the strong I strive; Defenceless and exposed I lie, Yet old and young to serve me fly. I beat my mother, scorn my sire, Would smile though cities were on fire: Wrong is to me the same as right, I sinned before I saw the light. My past distress affects me not, I nothing dread my future lot; Whateer I wish to do I dare, And leave to others all my care. I prize not honours, wealth, or birth, Not greatest glories of the earth; And I, of all on mortal ground, Alone am independent found. Exempt from envy and from pride, All that I want is soon supplied, Unmoved by others weal or woe, Without a rival or a foe. And by the wisest and the best My state has been accounted blest; For Christians most advanced must be In many things most like me.[/hide] [hide=5]My first can dim the suns meridian ray, In hardest Iron my second eat away; My third indulged will have their powers combined, To cloud the judgement, and corrode the mind.[/hide] I'll admit the 5th one is harder than the rest (well in my opinion anyway). Good luck : .

@Zierro - #1 is correct, #5 is not.

@mmmcannibalism - Nope @penguingeek3 - You got #2 correct. #4 is wrong, but it is very close.

Not exactly like the riddles already present, but have fun with these ones: [hide=1]Alike in mountain or in cell, In country or in town I dwell. My lodging may be large or small, Or may be nothing but a wall. When let alone, reserved and mute I shun appearance and dispute, And all intruders I defy Who would on my recesses pry. For at my voice, as if spell-bound, Your steps are rooted to the ground. I choose your place, my word is law, And if you pass it, or withdraw, I vanish as by magic, till You keep your distance and stand still. This done, it yet remains with you To lead, I only take the cue; This deference I always pay, Yours is the time, though mine the way. I never speak, as many do, Before I have been spoken to: But then I follow like a shot, And give as good as I have got. All tongues I speak, and use in these Whatever dialect you please; All sounds I utter, deep or shrill, A mimic of unequalled skill; Can yelp, and low, and bark, and growl, Like pistol crack, like thunder rowl. But one idea to obtain From me you would expect in vain. For though my talk is often terse, I neither reason nor converse. The chief attainment which I reach Is great precision in my speech. Whatever I have got to say, I give it vent without delay; Yet never have been known to make In word or letter one mistake; And if I tell what proves untrue, The fault is not in me but in you. My voice is either low or high As suits the place and company, And always pitched to answer best The tone in which I am addrest. Although reserved I keep me post Amidst the clamours of a host; Whose fire, however sharp or thick, Will meet rejoinder just as quick: For, be their number small or great, I never suffer a defeat, I never weary, never fly, And always have the last reply; Remaining when the fight is done, Just where it found me when begun.[/hide] [hide=2]In height and depth, in heaven and hell, In ocean and in earth I dwell; The first of each, the last of one, And yet I can be found in none. Though evil must with me begin, I am in error, not in sin. The first enterprise to lead, I never fail in strength or speed, Yet, always found in bed, and weak, I cannot stand alone, or speak. The end at once of peace and strife, And present both in death and life, My common help to foe and friend. To silence and to speech I lend; And still an equal place I have Both in the cradle and the grave, And space must terminate with me.[/hide] [hide=3]I am the weakest thing alive, Yet dauntless with the strong I strive; Defenceless and exposed I lie, Yet old and young to serve me fly. I beat my mother, scorn my sire, Would smile though cities were on fire: Wrong is to me the same as right, I sinned before I saw the light. My past distress affects me not, I nothing dread my future lot; Whateer I wish to do I dare, And leave to others all my care. I prize not honours, wealth, or birth, Not greatest glories of the earth; And I, of all on mortal ground, Alone am independent found. Exempt from envy and from pride, All that I want is soon supplied, Unmoved by others weal or woe, Without a rival or a foe. And by the wisest and the best My state has been accounted blest; For Christians most advanced must be In many things most like me.[/hide] [hide=4]My first and last in dungeon deep And desolate their places keep, And, though exempt from chain and bar, In the extremes of durance are. In middle of the air and skies, Centred in bliss, my second lies, Yet, never freed from whip and sting, Exists in pain and suffering. All these my three, first, second, third, One short but monitory word, Men do in every place and way, At every age, and every day.[/hide] [hide=5]My first can dim the suns meridian ray, In hardest Iron my second eat away; My third indulged will have their powers combined, To cloud the judgement, and corrode the mind.[/hide]

There is alot to consider than simply stating you want profit and experience. Would you be more inclined to make money and the expense of experience, or the converse? Would you prefer to try and get the best of both worlds with decent rates in each? Not only that, there is also how you value the experience you will obtain. By experience are you only referring to Attack/Strength/Defence? Or does that include the other combat skills (namely Range and Summoning as prayer isn't really an option, combat methods for training Magic aren't worth doing and Hitpoints comes from the training so that doesn't matter)? There is also the matter of how you prefer to train. Really your best options in my opinion would be: Green Dragons These can make from 400-600k an hour depending on your kill rate and I am unsure on the experience but I think it is around 40k with deviation on either side. Charms are minimal but you will get a few. Spiritual Mages These are akin to Green Dragons but you can't kill them yet. In case you decide to train Slayer to get these I'll add the information. These can range from about 520-610k per hour (based on current prices at the moment and a 250 kill rate with drop rate from 1/115 to 1/135 although some people might say differently about the drop rate, either way it is just an approximation). Unfortunately this is more luck based compared to Green Dragons. You could have a dramatic increase or decrease (you will never loss money per hour as the runes will cover supplies and a bit extra, essentially any boots are profit). You gain about 75k experience per hour. So on average they are better than Green Dragons but more luck based and you might not like this option. Also no charms. Armoured Zombies I don't know the actual rate per hour for profit as I haven't done enough extensive testing. It is up to 103k experience per hour, but you will average lower. The profit from what I have done is about 140-150k an hour but others say it is higher or lower so don't take my word for this. You also get about 9k or so Summoning experience worth of charms per hour. Slayer Methods vary greatly so there is no real exact average I can give that you will necessarily get. Personally I get about 195k experience per hour (just under 31k of which is to Slayer) and the rest ranges over all combat skills except Magic and Prayer. I also get about 110k profit per hour. I use a cannon and I also use Superhuman strength on every task except 3 which I use Piety. You can alter methods to increase the profit rate per hour by sacrificing experience and conversely the experience rate can be increased (not by a whole lot but enough to make a difference) at the loss of some profit. There are other methods that can be done, but these are among the best from the top off my head (with the best being Slayer in my opinion). Note that those rates are based on my stats but they aren't alot higher than yours. So you can get slightly lower but similar.

I was about to show the exact same thing but without the complex numbers. Your way works just the same though : :

[hide=General Questions]1. At my stats, what is the general points/hour at SC? How many SC tools is that? 2. Can someone confirm/repute my income/hour at Light Temple rune mines?[/hide] 1) As others have mentioned, games take about 12 or so minutes in a non-combat SC clan. With the 2 min waiting period it is 14 mins. So you get 4.29 games done an hour average 23 points a game, which is about 4.93 Morphic tools an hour. 2) Can't mine so can't help here, sorry. [hide=Magic]To my understanding, there are 3 viable ways to do this: String Amulet, Diamond Bolts, and Rock Lobsters. 1. What is the best thing to use for string amulet? How fast does it buy? 2. How well to unenchanted/enchanted diamond bolts buy/sell? 3. How much would each of these cost, what is their xp/hour, and what price should I buy my equipment at? 4. Is there anything I am overlooking?[/hide] 1) Gold amulets are best and they can be sold to a NPC after Summers End. You will still incur a loss. Not too sure on the buying rate. 2) Enchanted sell quite easily, not too sure on unenchanted. 3) Have never tested, so I can't help you out on the experience rates at the moment. As for what price, try and buy as low as possible : . Although in most cases if you want to get them at all (Gold amulets) you will need to buy for max. 4) Superheating gold ore. Can be quite expensive but you get a fairly decent Magic and Smithing experience rate. It is about 95k Magic and 101.3k Smithing (trying to remember off the top of my head) experience per hour. It costs about 950k or so an hour. May or may not be worth depending on how you value the Smithing and Magic experience. [hide=Crafting]I'm most confused on this front. It seems to me the best way to do this are green dragonhide bodies. 1. Am I right? 2. What is the cost and xp per hour? 3. Should I use the SC needle? 4. Are there any methods I am overlooking?[/hide] 1) Generally yes you are right that Green Dragonhide bodies are best. But Blue ones might be better. 2) For Green; 260k experience per hour at a loss of 1.27Mil per hour (based on current GE prices). For Blue; 294k experience per hour at a loss of 1.68Mil per hour (based on current GE prices). At those rates and prices, it is more efficient to stick to Green (unless your Rune mining jumps to over 1.8mil profit per hour ;) ) 3) The tool lasts for about 43,900 experience, a bonus of 21,950. It also halves the cost of the experience. At an hourly rate using the needles, you will gain 118,174 Crafting experience per hour at a loss of 288,447gp per hour. So if you can make over 527k an hour (which via Rune mining you can), it is more efficient to not use the needles. 4) Not that I can think of. [hide=Hitpoints]1. PC or SW? 2. Xp/hour of each? 3. If SW, what role should I play to maximize my xp? 4. Is there anything I am overlooking?[/hide] 1) Soul Wars will get you the faster Hitpoints experience. 2) Not 100% sure on rates. 3) The only way to maximise the experience is to win every game and that during the game you do a lot of damage to gain additional experience. 4) Put simply, I would say do not do either. You are eventually going to get Attack/Strength/Range to 99 correct? In doing so Hitpoints will get to 99 anyway, so do not bother focusing on just Hitpoints. That is just my opinion though. [hide=Range]1. Simply put, can I afford to chincompa to 99? That's the only method I am going to consider. I'd rather slay using ranged than any of the other methods.[/hide] 1) I am not too familiar with the methods for this. I would advise you look at the guide by Chenjs2 in the Archive of Wisdom. That will contain all the rates you will need. [hide=Prayer]1. I doubt I have the money, but I know I can make enough. So what is currently the most efficient bone? 2. I have my own Gilded Altar, should I go there using Slayer Ring (polly house) or house tabs? House tabs cost I think 600gp, while slayer rings are 20gp per tele.[/hide] 1) Dragon Bones are most efficient. 2) You would have to weigh up whether the extra ~7 seconds and the saving of 580gp is worth the one extra bone. The extra effect of the one bone would be minimal really, and the money saved is also minimal. For nothing more than simple ease, I would stick to the house tabs. Something you may not have seen is the way to speed up the training (works with cooking and other similar offer-all skills). After doing offer-all/5/10, wait until the second bone gets used and then use another bone on the altar and also offer-all/5/10. The first 2 get used much quicker than the rest. So for no extra cost, you can speed up the training. There is a guide in the General Guide section on it, it has been known about for a long time though. [hide=Summoning]1. I'd probably do Waterfiends, unless cannoning Black Demons is better for charms. So simple question, are Waterfiends better or worse than BD? 2. How long would the entire process take, from charm gathering to making the last pouch? (In hours). How much would it cost?[/hide] 1) Cannoning Black Demons is less efficient. 2) It depends entirely on your set up and your kill rates. The time for making the pouches is negligible in comparison to the collecting. I am unsure on the rate, but on Slayer I get about 60k Summoning experience per hour. It would be slightly less whilst not on Slayer, so you are looking at maybe 50k (assuming a 10% reduction in experience, and lowering the average experience per charm as my average is higher due to an already higher level). Since you need approximately 12mil experience, it would take about 240 hours to get the required charms and maybe 15 or so hours to use them. As for cost, I am not entirely sure. It will be subsidised slightly due to money made at Waterfiends however. Although have said to Burst/Barrage Rock Lobsters, it is better that you do not. It is actually more efficient to get the charms from Waterfiends. I used to think the opposite, but upon testing and seeing that Waterfiends make 150k (or so I think it was) profit an hour compared to original comparison of break even, I have calculated Waterfiends more efficient. [hide=Construction]1. I shall be making Oak Dungeon Doors, this is the best option, right? 2. What is the cost and xp per hour?[/hide] 1) Oak Dungeon Doors are indeed the fastest option (with Oak Planks). As for best, I am not entirely sure, but I would believe so. 2) It is possible to average about 290k experience per hour, which incurs a loss of 2.1mil an hour. I won't bother re doing the calculations here, but using the Morphic Hammer is more efficient than not using one for Construction. [hide=Agility]1. I will be at AA until 80, then I'll be at Doresh'kaan. Is this the best plan, or am I overlooking something? 2. What is the xp per hour at each location, on average? 3. About how much will I spend on Super Energies? I will not go to the Salt Water Spa, and to my knowledge I do not think I can bring a Terrorbird to either course.[/hide] 1) That is about right, however many say it may be best to stay at Ape Atoll until 85 before switching. 2) I think the Ape Atoll rate caps at about 52k experience per hour or so. The Dorgesh-Kaan goes up to about 58k or so. 3) You will use about 2k or a bit more Super Energies at the Dorgesh-Kaan course over the course of 85-99. Not sure about how many from 72-85 at Ape Atoll. All up I can guarantee it will be less then 3k. [hide=Smithing]1. SC hammer, correct? 2. For me, what is the best gameplan? I probably won't smith plates since they lose too much. So what's the best thing to smith? I was thinking addy bolts...[/hide] 1) Correct, assuming you are making things and not Superheating. 2) As mentioned with Magic, Superheating Gold Ores is one option as it will train both but with a large loss. If not, Addy Bolts up till 88 and then Adamant Plates is the about the best option. [hide=Herby]1. I notice that Zamorak Brews are extremely cheap herby xp. How well to they sell? How well to the ingredients buy? 2. If they aren't a viable option, how much will 99 herby cost me using the most efficient method?[/hide] 1) Can't really help much here other than to say due to a recent patch they did become more valuable (can no longer accidentally kill you by taking away your last Hitpoint). 2) You can put herbs into vials at a rate of about 3,360 per hour and put seconds into that at a rate of about 2,290 per hour. An average of 2,825 potions per hour. You can probably work out the most efficient one from that. Hope I helped.

At 65 you can use the Summer one. I believe it can gain the equivalent of just under 150k Thieving experience per hour if you make no mistakes and are going as fast as possible. Things like bandits might still be faster even if you have to heal more often, I am unsure exactly.

I don't see how that number could make sense... it is impossible. How fast you can kill General Graardor in this case is entirely irrelevant. Now I am not 100% sure on the spawn times for him (it also fluctuates depending on number of people on the server), but I know Commander Zilyana takes a bit under 2 minutes or so to spawn. Using that as a basis, we can assume Graardor takes at least 90 seconds to spawn each kill. There is 86,400 seconds in a day, which is 86,400 per server. With 81 (might have miscounted, but should be close) members servers, that is 6,998,400 seconds per day across all servers where Graardor can be killed. Getting 100,000 kills a day would require that on each server he be killed on average every 69.984 seconds (including spawn time) Since it takes 90 seconds to spawn, 100,000 is impossible. Add in that per server Graardor won't be getting killed all the time, not all worlds are lootshare so some worlds may not be in use. For those who solo/duo or such, the kill rate would be a lot less compared to a larger team. It comes down to averaging over two minutes per kill and not all servers being used. So it would be maybe 50,000 or less kills a day. Of all of those kills, only a fraction of the bones would end up getting banked anyway.

In my opinion, doing quests without guides is much more gratifying. When the quest "Darkness of Hallowvale" was released, both my friend and I were online (we both enjoy quests without guides). The quest had alot of puzzles I enjoyed it alot. What even added more to the gratification was that we were among the first people to finish that quest (across all servers I mean), as we were the first people to finish the quest on that world way before anyone else did :lol: . So, we did the quest the instant it was released, we had no help from anyone else other than each other and it was one of the best quests I have done. If I had waited a few days for a guide, then just went through it step by step, there is no possible way I would have had as much fun.

Barrows from scratch took me 1:27:25 (hours:minutes:seconds). Took a few pictures along the way: [hide=Pictures] [/hide] The last two might appear out of order, but they aren't. I left the chest and went back to safespot Verac. Kept stuffing up and ended up with very little Hitpoints :lol: . What a lousy reward for all that effort :( .

The 268k for Dagannoths incorporates all the experience other than Slayer. The cannon gets a tremendous amount of experience here, you still get a large amount of melee experience and hence Hitpoints. There is also the bonus from using a combat familiar, also the amount of Summoning experience gained from charms is quite substantial. I don't have exact numbers at the moment as they are on another computer but you can find a listing of my rates in a table on a few pages in the thread. Page 43 I know has it on it, there are others but 43 is the one I can remember. You can't add 15k to the Armoured Zombies for the combat familiar either. It is single way combat, so they can't be used to attack and increase the rate of experience. I am also not sure where you got the rate of 107k from but I have never said that using a cannon will average that much. Although off the top of my head I think of the tasks I cannon only one task gets over that amount, which is Dagannoths.

Your logic is good, but I might not have said this as best I could. All of those rates were combat experience per hour, not just melee. With the comparison between the different headgear and amulet, while not 100% sure, they should be pretty much equal. It comes down to the Armoured Zombies having an additional 4.95% boost to Attack and Strength. Although whether that rounds up or down I am not entirely sure (many things round down even at a number such as that in Runescape). However Slayer has the +10 to Attack bonuses and the +5 bonus to Strength. While we can't know for sure which is better, if one is better it would be by an insignificant amount. So the best option is just to consider them equal. Just to add. Out of all the Slayer tasks, only one beats Armoured Zombies on a purely melee xp/h basis. That task is Dust Devils. Also, all of my rates are based on using Superhuman Strength instead of piety except on three tasks. The three tasks I use piety on are Waterfiends, Skeletal Wyverns and Scabarites (on Scabarites mainly for the defence bonus as the cannon does most of the work : ). Yay someone finally cleared this up. I never bothered to work out if the familiars give Hitpoints experience also. Good to know though :thumbsup: . On tasks where I use a combat familiar, I get about 8-15k I think it is depending on task. Although as an average over all tasks it would be less. With the Cannon, experience given to Range is 2x damage done. No Hitpoints experience is gained.

I said it takes a bit over 3 hours, which is just under 33k Slayer experience an hour. My average is about 30.8k Slayer experience per (without banking times added in yet). Yes I do have higher stats than the average player, but the point is that it is possible (and higher than mine even). Of all the tasks I do ranging from the slowest (Mithril Dragons) up to the fastest (Dagannoths), that is the average I get. Not every task will get me this of course, it is quite possible for me to get only about 9.4k Slayer experience an hour (all Mithril Dragons) up to approximately 70k. Overall as an average is what is important. That may be your rate, but that will not be the rate for everyone else. The same applies to my own rate. I was just simply stating a fact that is is possible to get that much experience as an average in a little over 3 hours. I wasn't intending to start an argument, just stating a fact. Also just to point out, Slayer is the slowest skill in the game on its own. Every other skill is capable of getting more per hour than Slayer. However Slayer has the advantage of it training other skills so overall it is a very high experience per hour. Ignoring that for the moment, the maximum average experience per hour you can get is just over 30k (maybe up to 35k with max stats and absolute highest efficiency). The next slowest would be Runecrafting with the Ourania altar, which exceeds what Slayer can get. Even though the bulk of players will not utilise this all the way to 99. The point is that in comparing max experience per hour obtainable, Slayer is the slowest on a single skill basis. However it gets a huge amount of overall experience per hour. Just thought I should add that :

If you train efficiently, it will take a bit over 3 hours. That isn't really asking for alot.

If by better you mean more combat experience per hour (overall without th Slayer), than there are many which exceed Armoured Zombies. Based on Armoured Zombies giving 146k combat experience per hour, the ones that do give more combat experience per hour are: Aberrant Spectres - 188,794 Black Demons - 160,177 Bloodvelds - 207,386 Dagannoths - 267,999 Dust Devils - 171,487 Fire Giants - 160,239 Nechryaels - 174,995 Scabarites - 212,731 Suqahs - 155,347 Waterfiends - 175,601 Those are all based on my numbers. Of the other 6 I do, one misses out on exceeding it by 4k experience, 3 miss out by about 10k, one by 26k, and the last one by 71k (Mithril Dragons :lol: ).

What did you think the point of the value of experience was? It is not simply a matter of fun. The only possible way I can think of is to give an example where it shows (I would think) what is meant by the value of experience. At Armoured Zombies you get 103k melee experience per hour. However, into what melee skills do you get that experience. They are all equal in how much can be obtained per hour (for arguments sake I am assuming Strength is the same speed as Attack and Defence). What influences a players choice in choosing which one to train? Does every player value the experience in Attack/Strength/Defence to be equal? Or do they prefer one of the other two or two over the other 1? Hopefully that should finally give you some indication of what is meant by the value of experience. I cannot think of any other way to simplify it for you and to be honest, if you haven't understood it by now, there really is no hope for you. An average takes the luck based part into account, it wouldn't be an average otherwise. Honestly, you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole with all this constant contradictions. If what you are saying here is true, than you cannot ever average 1mil an hour. This means any time you have said that is your rate you have lied. Just as you would be lieing to tell other people they can average that much. But clearly we aren't talking about the average player, we are talking about someone with your stats. Only a person with those stats can get the rate of 103k at Armoured Zombies. So it is either someone can get 103k at Armoured zombies whilst also being able to get 825k at Aviansies, or they cannot get 825k at Aviansies and as such cannot get 103k at Armoured Zombies. Anything different is being biased and inconsistent. What does training a "portion" of combat have to do to mean you are not training combat. Lets see if you follow these simple steps: Are Range and Hitpoints Combat skills? Yes What experience do you gain by using chinchompas at Ape Atoll? Ranged and Hitpoints How much experience per hour do you get? 375k+ Is there any other method of combat that results in that much or more experience? No What logical conclusion can be made from that? That using chinchompas at Ape Atoll gets a large amount of combat experience per hour that is unmatched by any other method. As such it is the fastest combat experience in the game. That is all there is to it. So was I. I had never said or inferred that it was the right I achieved. I had always said I believed my rate to be higher, and that proved to be true.... Haven't I said this before? Oh right, I have. You just do not seem to understand it. You have only just given your melee xp/h rates. You have not provided Slayer rates, not provided profit rates, not provided Summoning rates. That means there is no way you can have proved Slayer inefficient. How does that prove it is a 50/50 split? At 0 strength bonus you hit 16, at 65 you hit 32 and at 175 you hit 64. So a 65 strength bonus increase from 0 resulted in rising the rate by 16. A 110 increase on that makes it go up by 32. Is it just me or am I not seeing a 50/50 split here? Thank you for proving my point. You got to the conclusion that it is most likely 278.4... may I ask you came to that conclusion? What evidence do you have to support that claim? You went under the assumption that it would be found between the elements with those atomic numbers? You had to make up 6 extra elements to come to that conclusion. The only information that was given was that a new element was found. No information is given that could even hint at what its atomic weight is. Since no-one else had worked it out or taken a guess, I said some arbitrary number. This makes what I have said the most accurate conclusion regardless of that fact I have no factual basis on which to make that claim. It was a very simple analogy. So according to you, there is a large margin of error for the Summoning experience? Which is specifically listed in the task details? What evidence do you have that the ratio's provided are incorrect? This is my point. You will argue that something is wrong, but you supply no facts or evidence/proof or anything to support your claim. Nothing other than your word that you are right and that the rate is wrong. Maybe you misunderstood what I mean by using the term "know". I used that term because it was proven mathematically that Slayer is more efficient. That is how I know Slayer is more efficient. It was not an opionated argument because it was based on facts and evidence that support my case. All the numerical proof is earlier in the thread which you refuse to look at. I have seen that quote before. That specific quote has been in there since the second thread for that guide. Also note that it was an estimate. Also note that he gets over 30k Slayer experience per hour, as I also do, which shows at that rate more combat experience is gained per hour compared to Armoured Zombies. It being able to be assumed from the rate you provided is irrelevant. The point is you once again lied to try and prove a point of making Morningrise333 look bad. You had specifically said that the rate of 47 minutes had been supplied. You now say it could be assumed from what you gave. That means you never gave the rate and lied that it was there. So the test I did at Bloodvelds that showed a cannon is more efficient you are just simply going to ignore? Yea that will work... Maybe if you believe it for long and hard enough it might come true! Then again, you could simply stop acting like a moron and stop trying to up with some bs that no rates have been provided. I was not asking for the debate now was I. You can't be referring to the debate either as that is impossible. It is impossible, because what you are suggesting is the logic behind your methods came from this debate about your rates. So you never had any logic behind your rates before they were apparently debated with? It comes down to simply why you use what you do at a specific task. Bloodvelds for example: Where do you kill them, and why do you kill them there in comparison to another? Very simple questions. What equipment do you wear and why is that used in comparison to others? What prayers if any are used, and why? What potions if any are used and why (also how often you pot)? For Bloodvelds, do you use a cannon and why? Note every answer for why cannot be simply it is efficient. The only one out of those that might take up a large portion of the text is the why, more specifically to a cannon as that requires evidence. While the others require evidence, they can be shown by simple logic as why it is superior rather than rates that something is exactly 1.0384% better. Such as for you kill Bloodvelds (not Mutated) near the Blood Altar. Why? It is multicombat and allows for use of a combat familar to increase experience. There are other factors such as the times when a NPC is redbarred but doesn't die but you click to attack another. This would have no effect in the experience rates. It is not hundreds of pages, it is simple and logical based arguments. Well there you go. I know Qeltar's rates, I know Zarfot's rates, I know my rates. I do not need them. I asked for nothing more and nothing less than your rates. Specifically only yours as only then can we see where your inefficiency lies. By doing what you have done, those are no longer your rates and we can now not clearly see where you are going wrong. So i'll ask again (this has got to be over the 10th time by now): What are your rates? So you are saying you only do 13 out of a possible 24? Out of the 11 you don't do, 1 you cannot receive, 4 can be blocked and 6 you actually cancel. You are losing out on approximately 40% of your Slayer points which drop your profit rates by a fairly high amount. Well who knows, maybe that is more efficient. You don't do Greater Demons, even though you can get a higher melee xp/h rate than other tasks you do. Mithril Dragons are slower experience, that is true. However, they have a high profit rate per hour and tasks are short. It is much more efficient to kill 4-8 of them and gain a sizeable profit, than to waste 30 points cancelling them. Scabarites are arguable the best Slayer monster. Warped Terrorbirds can give over 35k Slayer experience an hour. Many of the tasks you don't do are more efficient to complete than to cancel. Profit rates and Summoning experience rates cannot be found in the thread. You Slayer rates or melee rates also cannot be found in the thread. The fact that no-one knew you only did 13/24 of Duradels tasks only goes to show you have never indicated as such. Had you truly given rates one would think that others would know this. So don't come up with some bs that they can be found earlier in the thread. Nor the fact that I have to be "spoon-fed". I have read every post in this thread at least twice and some many more. I have never once encounted your rates. You have never posted them, you have never placed them in a comprehensive table. Explain to me how you planned on comparing our rates if you didn't even know what your rates are in the first place? That the rates you Pm'd me were not actually your rates. To be honest, this is getting beyond stupid. You are unable to comprehend simple concepts (value of experience), do nothing but respond that it is earlier in the thread (when so much evidence has shown that such information is not there) and other such things that are just so illogical, that it amazes me you could say that, let alone believe it. I given rates, I ahve shown calculations, I have explained every step of the way, I use logical steps to form a conclusion and all of this has been supplied and you do nothing but simply say "your wrong, i'm right".

Ah so we get back this point all over again. It seems you do not understand what is meat by the value of experience. We went through this ages ago where I explained it, and yet you still have not grasped the concept. Just because a Herblore cape takes longer and costs more to obtain, does not make it more valuable. It is not a matter of how much the skill gains/loses or necessarily the time it takes to gain the experience. A person might train to 99 firemaking (the most useless skill in the game - in my opinion anyway), and that person also trains to say 99 Herblore. From that information alone, can you tell which is more valuable? No you cannot. You can state your own value, but not theirs. This person might hate the Herblore skills and love the Firemaking skill. They could enjoy Firemaking and to them it is the best skill in the game. That means to them, Firemaking is more valuable than Herblore. Value is not so much a set amount, but rather it is relative to the other skills. While a player might be able to say the exact amount they value a skill, they can tell how much they value it with respect to the others. It is seperate to what it costs to obtain the experience. If you don't understand this, then say so. I could try to clarify it, but it really is not that difficult a concept and i'm not sure I can simplify it any more. Half 400k, or half 1mil? To suggest it is only 200k an hour is ridiculous so I am assuming you meant 1mil. That means you are saying it is possible to average 500k an hour. That means the average profit that a player who can also obtain 103k melee experience at Armoured Zombies is at least 500k if not more. So by saying to all those people in H&A forum that 825k is possible, you were lieing? Your posts here and there contradict one another. If what you say here is correct, and that if people used this method, then getting 825k is impossible. That means any time you said Aviansies was 825k to someone in H&A you were leing. If what you said there was true, that means that 8225k is possible for other people. It is one or the other. In doing so, you train combat by gaining combat experience. As such, you gain the fastest combat experience in the game. Why is that hard to understand? If you are referring to the rate proposed around page 12-15 I think it was, had you read what I had posted at all, I never said that it was my rate. I had also always stated that I believed my rate to be higher, and when tested my rate did indeed prove to be higher. What is this evidence of which you speak? I have seen no evidence that shows Armoured Zombies are more efficient than Slayer. There is only you saying it is, with no evidence pointing to it. My response there was directly due to you claiming I do not post evidence to support what I have posted. That I do not explain what I have, that I don't show how I got to the conclusion. That was false and I responded to it as such. What evidence? There is only you claiming that there is evidence to support your claim, but you have posted any such evidence. Either the evidence does not exist or it does, but you are unwilling to post it for whatever reason. If that is the case then it stands to reason that what you say cannot be taken as fact regarding this matter. You saying yours is the most accurate conclusion is not necessarily accurate at all. Lets say for example that a new element is discovered. We know nothing about it other than the fact that it exists. I could then say it has an atomic weight of 278.4. I could then claim it is the most accurate conclusion because there is no evidence the contrary, regardless that I have no evidence to support my claim. That is essentially what you are doing. Where is this large margin of error you say exists? Where did you even get the arbitrary number of 30%? I have been through that thread many times and never seen such a number nor that large a difference in his numbers. Once again you have no evidence to supoort your claim. Profit rates are proportional to experience rates. See what profit you get for a set amount of experience, this number can be adjusted to equal the amount of Slayer experience per hour he gets and the hourly profit rate for a given task. The methods in this thread you have proposed must be used are simply pathetic in my opinion. They are terribly inefficient and I would not use them given a more efficient method. So I will continue to use a cannon because I know for a fact it is more efficient than not to. I will continue to use combat familiars because it is more efficient than not using one. It is that simple. You have not come up with any substantial error in his rates with which you have evidence to back up. Have I ever said otherwise? You have said that the only way to debate without using opinion is to use the maximum rates. I agree with this because these rates can be lowered according to different levels. Yet the moment this happens, you argue that they are too high? All of my rates are lower than the maximum, evidenced by not having maxed stats. So by comparing with similar stats the two different methods, the more efficient one can be determined and it will scale down accordingly to lower levels. It is that simple. I searched for the term "47 min". Surely if you had mentioned that rate before, it would be found in the word document. Only 2 results came up, which was referring to the difference in posting times. So you have never mentioned a rate of 47 minutes before. Your posts indicate you have not properly read that guide, regardless of how many times you say. That thread is all that is truly needed to show Slayer is better, in which case this thread would never have existed. You are too arrogant however to think someone could be getting a better rate than you. You may have esaggerated, but it was not an exaggeration of "his" posting mannerisms. I have read, and you did no such thing. All of those calculations were based on Qeltar's numbers, which on their own are terrible inefficent and lower than the average. Upon my own testing of Bloodvelds, I conclusively proved a cannon efficient at 400k an hour. The only real way to prove it is to perform the test yourself, because Qeltar's numbers are terrible. You have even claimed you performed 80 hours of testing with a cannon. Yet there was no such mention of it earlier in the thread nor any evidence agreeing with that you have done any such test. May I ask how someone of your claimed intelligence can miss the point by this much? The logic behind a method is not hundreds of pages of text. It certainly did not encompass the entirety of the first 40 pages either. You are using this as an excuse (a pathetically bad exucse at that) just so that you will not have to post your methods. If it is as you say that Slayer is inefficient, would that not mean you would have more to gain by posting this and showing once and for all Slayer as inefficient? Yes how could you? At the rate I was killing them, extrapolated to an hour does given an accurate approximation of the rate. As such it was not entirely accurate, it was a few thousand experience below what I normally achieve. This is you once again using any excuse you can think of to keep saying Slayer is inefficient. I've read the message, it was not covered. It specifically says "They were taken from the last iteration of numbers throughout the thread." That means the last numbers you had posted throughout the thread for each NPC is what your rate actually is. Not once where any of the numbers you posted found. I even made a mistake where I said only 2 were not in there. You actually said we had never agreed on Dust Devils and Gargoyles, as well as 2 or 3 others. So out of the 13 you gave, according to you, only 8 or 9 were ever actually within the thread. Does this not conclusively prove that no matter how much anyone looked, no-one would ever find your rates (experience and profit) for every task? The only correct answer is that it does prove that. When I asked for rates, I was expecting all of the rates. Not 8-9 rates of simply melee experience per hour. I wanted (and still do) your Slayer rates per hour as well as the Ranged, Hitpoints, Summoning and Profit. How else can there be a comparison? Now you cannot use the bs excuse that they are in the thread, as it has been conlusively proven they are not. Why is it so difficult to post a table outlining average experience rates for each skill of each NPC and the profit rates that accompany them? When you do that a comparison can finally be made to see why your rate is so much lower.

Where did I suggest that everyone should tell us how much they value experience? The most accurate way is to start off on the basis that all experience is valued equally. If someone else does not value their experience that way, they can assign their own values. That does not mean everyone needs to come on here and post their results. Why is that so difficult? How was I flaming or being an idiot? It was nothing but a logical based argument. If it is not 1mil per hour now, what is the average you can get there? If it is over 400k my point still stands. That is an opinion and not fact. So how can that be proof? The point is if one person can do it, other people can also do it. That means at the moment other players with maxed stats are quite capable of getting your rate of 825k per hour. Range is a combat skill. Hitpoints is a combat skill. By training them you are training combat. Combat includes all of those yes, but that does not mean all of them have to be trained for it to be considered combat training. Again, why is that so difficult for you to understand? I believe you said something like you were testing them in game to ensure accuracy. Something along those lines. What does this have to do with the rate I proposed earlier in the thread? If you had even bothered to read my post or used any sort of logic, you would have seen from the get go, that they were assumptions and not my rates. It is not my fault you were incapable of understanding that, because throughout the entire thread, I have never indicated otherwise. I have always stuck to saying that I believed my rate to be higher than that, and it is. I don't huh? Look above to where I have been mentioning the value of experience. Have I not been consistently and constantly explaining it to you? Hence it is agreeing with what you just quoted, and you saying "Again, you most certainly do not" is nothing but a pathetic attempt to say otherwise. If I am biased to Slayer for any reason it is because I have already shown Slayer is more efficient than Armoured Zombies. It is only a matter of showing you that. Your bias for Armoued Zombies comes from you unwilling to be wrong and adamant that you are correct, when the evidence says otherwise. So because there is no evidence for any way to work it out, that must mean you conclusion, which was also based on no evidence must be correct? You have provided no evidence to back-up your claims. That means everything you just said was opinion. And according to you and using your logic, that just isn't going to cut it. In other words, what you have just said was irrelevant (based on your logic that opinions with no evidence are irrelevant). Do you seriously know what a detail is? He provides much more detail in every aspect of Slayer than you, me or anyone else I know of. Explain to us then, what details is he supposedly missing? His methods are not seperate from what "we" have been using, maybe from what "you" use. I do not follow every method exactly, but most of my methods are based on those presented in his guide. You actually think the Summoning rates very by30-40%? Upon what basis did you come to the conclusion? It cannot be factual as you have no evidence onec again to support your claim. There is alot of details, they are all presented in an orderly fashion and are not difficult to find. However I will say again so you don't miss it. Explain to us then, what details is he supposedly missing? From the get go when I supplied these rates, I explained how I calculated the experience for each charm. It was using the average from my current level up till 99. I also said that my specific rate would not apply to everyone. You are only showing you do not fully read what I have posted. The point is consistency. Someone with my levels will generally have a higher Summoning level than low. As such the rate that I get is accurate based on my levels. Since we are supposed to be comparing max experience rates, my rates are actually lower than the max so I could change to them to be higher to be consistent if you like? Then that means it has nothing whatsoever to do with what you posted. The link in your thread directed me straight to that quote. I was responding to that post in which you mentioned that link, not about the moderators and supposed flame war. Not my fault you were incapable of telling the difference between them (especially considering the post of yours I quoted and responded to). You are also trying to bias other peoples opinions of Morningrise333 to suit you. What you posted in quotation marks was not said, and it only shows you are trying to make him like worse than he is. "It takes me 20 minutes to do a spectres task. How long does it take you, an hour? Two? Read Zarfot's guide. I think you'd really benefit." You will also find you had never mentioned it took 47 minutes to complete the task. You mentioned 45 minutes.... on the next page of the thread. Was he supposed to be psyhic and know that you were going to post that number on the next page? Nor was the cannon ever proven inefficient. I know that as a fact and the replies earlier in this thread support that. And yet a cannon was never proven inefficient. Nor would it be hundreds of pages of text in a word document. You are just looking for any excuse to get out of saying them. There is a mistake there, you used the word "claim". The word claim infers I had no evidence to back up that rate... since I did, it was not a claim. There is evidence of other people attaining and surpassing this rate, I even showed a short vid showing it. It took you 4-5 days for that? Only 13 rates were given. Which you have admitted that 2 were not even present in the thead. That leads to only 11 having been supposedly posted. So you know what I did? Since I have the entire thread in a word document, I hit "ctrl+f" and typed in each of those numbers. Not one of them was found, meaning those rates were never given. Well, fair enough, maybe you gave the rates to the nearest 1,000 experience. So I looked for those too. For the very first one, rounding off to the nearest thousand, I got that rate for that NPC. Sadly, that was a rate I supplied, which came directly from Zarfot's guide. It was never found again to be in reference to that NPC. The 6th NPC I found down the list I found a number for that to nearest thousand. It however was found in the exact same post as the previous one, a rate that I supplied directly from Zarfot's guide. After those two, not once did I find one of those numbers with that NPC. I guess all you did was show that those rates were never posted in the thread. Especially considering to get an average rate to 5 significant figures (6 for one task), and since those numbers weren't in the thread, you had to test every single one of them to get those rates. So I guess now we have undeniable proof that you have never posted your rates in the thread. Anything indicating as such was a lie. Not to mention there was only 11 (13 but two you said were not agreed upon) different NPCs supplied, that would infer that if these numbers came from the thread, that only 11 had been given. This furthur proves that you have never posted all of your averages for each task. Hell, you only gave melee xp/h rates, no Slayer, no summoning, no profit rates. See, didn't even mention the specific rate you gave or to which NPC each were related. Didn't need to show you have lieing all along.

So if we did not agree on that, does that mean you believe there is a universal value of experience for everyone that ever has, will or does play Runescape? People have differing values of experience, that is true. However, provided they have the same/similar levels and use the same method, they will gain the same/similar average experience rate per hour. The most accurate way to compare methods is to let everbody see the rates and assign their own personal value to it. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? So you admit you were lieing when you average 1mil an hour at Godwars? If you aren't lieing, that means anybody with the same stats will average the same rate. Luck-based is factor, but the point of the average is to account for that. Some may make more per hour, some make less, but the average overall will be a set value. In this case it can be considered to be 1mil an hour, I am not entirely sure of the exact average however. So you are saying that out of over a million members, only you and "a couple others" are able to make over 450k an hour? If one person can do it, then another person with the same stats and using the same method can also do it. So in this case that means if you can make up to 825k an hour, using your method with same stats means other people can also get it. Wow, you have got to be kidding me. After all this time you finally agree with me, and you make it out as if I was wrong all along. When have I ever indicated that chinchompas at Ape Atoll give experience in any other skill than Range/Hitpoints? As I have said from the very beginning, and that has not changed, is that doing this will give experience in combat skills. Due to the amount of experience it gives, it is the fastest combat experience in the game. It is not a difficult concept... If I am to understand this correctly. You are trying to ensure accuracy by resting them in game? One would think considering how you refer to them in the past few pages that your rates are 100% correct, which would mean there is no need for testing to ensure accuracy.... I mean, unless the rates you supplied where never accurate in the first place. Every single time I go into posting or arguing about numbers, I always explain how I come to the conclusions I did. I show how I did it and provide information of how it was obtained. If someone disagrees with my rates, they can point out exactly where they believe the error is. If there is indeed an error, I will go back and check it. My rates can be considered factual because no-one has come up with a genuine source of error in my rates. My rates are even backed up by other people gaining equal amounts or exceeding what I get. While it technically is not 100% factual (as nothing ever is), it has a high degree of accuracy. I am not entirely sure why we would need to go in game and slay side by side either. If you are getting less experience, the only possible outcome is that you are using slower methods than myself (can't be due to levels as yours are higher by a small amount). So any differences can be narrowed down to simply the method being utilised. If it is incorrect, how can it truly be the best possible result? You do not know how the combat system works, you do not how much influence an increase of that magnitude will result in. You are guessing with nothing as a factual basis. Nothing resembling details? You have seriously got to be kidding me. With each specific task he details average charm rates, the equipment he uses, the method used to kill them. Before he even goes into that however, he has details on why he uses the equipment he does, the different items he uses, explanations/calculations showing why something is efficient. There is also tables supplying his average Slayer experience rate, his Summoning rate, and approximate banking times. How can that be taken as "nothing resembling details", seriously? There are ways to contact him, so that point is null. Feel free to explain how his numbers are wildy incomplete? They are not broken down into exact average for each combat skill, but that is not needed. The guide is based on training Slayer. Specific combat rates are not entirely needed as you will get every combat stat to 99 by doing Slayer. Also feel free to explain how his methods are inefficient. A cannon is not inefficient, as much as you would like to believe so. Using his methods, it shows that overall Slayer is more efficient than Armoured Zombies. I have not given specific averages for every type of charm on each NPC, how is that relevant. The point is I will continue to average the same amount and gain the same experience for each type of charm. This translates into Summoning experience per hour.... which has been given. How is what I have shown inconsistent or not forthcoming? That rhetorical question was pointless... Also just because I may or may not have been posting at the time, does not mean I was not reading the replies on the thread. The reason why we can't see where you are wrong, as you have not detailed your methods nor even given average experience and profit rates. The only time you have done so was recently give a rough average for Aberrant Spectres, which was only supplied done so because I asked about what you got. I guess that was the point then... You would not look through and find his thread, but you would tell people to find specific rates given randomly over a couple dozen pages? That is odd considering what he proposed you look for was much easier to find. Since everything is relative, if you would not look for something that is easier to find, why would you expect people to look for something that is harder to find. Which translates to at the moment 2 and half months. By that time there would be approximately another 30+ pages on top of that if it continues at the current rate. Eventually they would catch up, but to even suggest one page a day is one of the most stupid things you have said so far. As far as I am concerned, Morningrise333 is not an uninformed idiot and he has been here for much (if not all) of the thread. So those points of not having read your posts is null. Having read that reply, I wouldn't really call that flaming. There was a series of rhetorical questions, of which the purpose is to get his point across they are bad methods. If anything he was simply astounded that after all this time, after you going on and on about being efficient, that you are being that terrible efficient with Slayer. There was not 12 pages of numbers and calculations of how you come to use a Unicorn with Karils for Aberrant Spectres. So don't come up bs excuses. The logic behind specific methods will not take hundreds of pages to explain (considering as far as I know the amount you can post in one page is limitless :lol: ). It comes down to whether that method is more efficient than others. From that it comes down to how you calculated it to be more efficient. There is not hundreds of pages that need to be given to explain such a simple method. Well since I have not seen you numbers I have not agreed with any of them. Much less for Dust Devils. I posted they were over 100k experience per hour (to melee), and you just flat out said it was impossible and never posted your specific rates.

Did we not just establish there is no universal value for experience. That means no universal value can be added as it does not apply to everyone. A simple rate of how much experience per hour and profit rate per hour is all that is needed. This is the only way to compare rates as a whole on the basis that all experience is valued equally. If the values are not equal for any person, they can assign their own values, is not that difficult to understand. You also say you get 825k at Aviansies, would it not be possible to get 600k+ then for another person? You also say you gget 1mil an hour at Godwars, would it not be possible for other people? The point I am making is you are not being consistent. You use the rates a person with 99 stats can get, but use a profit rate lower than what a person with 99 stats can get. If they trying to make money, are they going to purposely only get 400k an hour when they are quite capable of getting more? No they are not. Was I not clear with the idiotic argument I posted? It is an exact parallel to yours and means shows that Armoured Zombies does not train combat. So it can't be used in comparison. But i'll rephrase what you have just said; "Training a combat skill does not count as combat training without factoring is every other type of combat". Other types of combat are irrelvant in the point I was making. I said nothing more or less than the fastest "combat" experience per is using chinchompas at Ape Atoll. I said that because the experience you get by doing this goes towards combat skills. It is not that difficult to understand. I guess it only goes to show that if it has taken this longso far, it would take others much longer as they do not know exactly where to look. As it happens, you would have to of done this anyway, as how else would you have compared rates? If you wanted to see them proven worse, you need only look at rates that can be gotten whilst doing Slayer. Those rates far exceed what is possible at Armoured Zombies. They only proof you have said will suffice is factual proof (not opinions). You have said that these facts are rates and calculations. So please explain to me how someone can show to you that Slayer is better by providing rates, that you now admit will not be enough for you because they exceed yours? For that matter, why should anyone take what your rates are as factual? Oh, so it is a "rough rate" now. I thought it was a maximum before? As said with the Skeletal Wyverns example, the only way to do it in one trip is with piety due to the added bonuses that are vital. If you use a lower stat enhancing prayer, you will be forced to do 2 trips (maybe 3 if the tasks is like 99, but still i'm not sure) and each kill will be far slower. The bank trip alone will result in the loss of about 1-2k Slayer experience, which is about 5.6-11.1% drop from that part alone. Add in the the far slower kills and yes, it will be slower by greater than 12% without piety. I posted it there because if I hadn't you would have posted to read your replies again. So no, it was not in the wrong place. I have posted many rates for many different things, you are going to have to be more specific. "Whinging" - Verb to whinge (third-person singular simple present whinges, present participle whinging or whingeing, simple past and past participle whinged) 1. to complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner Maybe not the best word, but it was the only one I could think of at the time. If you really had read that thread, then why was this thread created? To prove Slayer is better? That is what the thread on the rsof does. Unless I am mistaken, I don't think i've ever seen a post on that rsof thread ever saying that the rates supplied are impossible or anything along those lines. It is on its 4th thread now so alot of people have seen and replied to it, and those rates still stand. Unless you wanted to accuse him of bad methods and bad testing? I've already posted an excel sheet detailing my average rates for each skill as well as overall experience and profit. I have given a plethora of information regarding what I use and the method from those is quite obvious. Last time we tried posting rates a mod came in and deleted the the flaming that resulted? I don't think so. Why would a flame war result from you posting your results? The only thing that will happen is that we will all see where you are going wrong and hopefully be able to work out why your rate is so low. You could always post a link to the page where your rate can be found. You can always indicate what page number (7-36 is not a specific number) they can be found. You could go in more detail and say post number. Not to mention looking through the H&A forum to find what Morningrise333 is suggesting is much easier than finding specific rates throughout this thread (search function).

Mole killed in 22:32 \ Crappy picture but I lost the screenie I took at the time, so I got it from what I had recorded.