ydrasil

Anything can be made to sound better when you exaggerate its bonuses. It is not twice the cash by using this method, it works out to approximately 10k more per hour at Armoured Zombies. Yes it is more experience.... but only in combat. Overall it is less experience per hour than Slayer. The experience from Slayer is simply spread over more skills, but in the end it is more efficient to do Slayer. You need to actually classify what you believe the term 'best' means. Do you mean purely in the amount of combat experience per hour? Do you mean the most efficient means of gaining combat experience? It comes down to how each person defines best for them. You mentioned that Slayer as a skill doesn't suck, why doesn't it? Why do you personally enjoy it? Your main argument now is simply that as a means to only train combat, Slayer is not the best way. This would infer that your definition of best is fastest, as you sacrifice efficiency at Armoured Zombies when compared to Slayer. You can't say Slayer as a means to train combat is bad when (according to you) there is only one better method. The basis of this thread was originally on Zombie Monkies, which was the fastest way to get combat experience. It was proven inefficient when compared to Slayer, unless you make over 25mil per hour. Armoured Zombies is still debatable but you exaggerate its bonuses. Slayer provides so many extra bonuses in addition to its combat experience. That is the reason why people suggest this as the reason you train combat. In the end, it is the best (to me, not necessarily to everyone) way to train, as it is the most efficient. Armoured Zombies require the following levels: Level 51 Agility Level 51 Hunter Level 54 Smithing Level 59 Mining Level 40 Ranged Level 42 Thieving Level 40 Crafting Level 59 Magic Level 35 Runecrafting Level 25 Farming It requires the following Quests: Defender of Varrock Shield of Arrav The Knight's Sword Romeo and Juliet Demon Slayer Temple of Ikov The Family Crest What Lies Below Garden of Tranquillity Creature of Fenkenstrain Priest In Peril The Restless Ghost There is also the need to be able to kill a variety of different NPCs. Those quests take a while to complete also. Aviansies require the following Quests: Troll Stronghold (only needs to be started but not completed) Death Plateau You need the following levels: Level 15 Agility (for Troll Stronghold) Either Level 60 Strength/Agility (to be able to get to Godwars) Specifically that isn't alot of requirements, but there is still some. The ability to teleport to Trollheim is very useful when going to Godwars. To use this it requires the following Quests to be completed: Eadgar's Ruse Druidic Ritual Troll Stronghold Death Plateau Also the levels: Level 31 Herblore P.S. You should alter the first post in this thread. As we all know no-one is going to read the whole thing, most will only read the first post/page and last few pages.

The only time in which it would be good to use this combination is if you do not have access to the Dragon Scimitar, even then it is debatable. A test I performed on Moss Giants showed Dragon Scimitar was still faster experience. If you don't have access to the Scimitar, you could spend a few hours to make the money to buy a Whip. The controlled option is overall the most efficient way to gain experience. While it isn't directly to Strength, it is overall a more efficient way to train Strength.

I'd love to have a luck based method in which to make money from skilling. Many people who have responded seem to miss the point of what Nuke is trying to get across. As No_99_Melee said: This is because you are under the assumption that it would be implemented like already existing methods. If it were to be brought in on par with how items are "farmed" from monsters, then it would be a worthwhile update. Nuke's example on 1st page, post 11 shows it quite well with the Anthracite. An example of this already in game is the Sceptre's from Pyramid Plunder. You are by no means guaranteed to get a staff but there is a chance you might. Also I think higher level chests have higher chances? Not entirely sure on that. There is a slight risk to it, but that is really next to nothing.

The video also shows a measure of proof of them not being overpowered. Yes you were frozen through protect prayer, as can be seen it doesn't last long at all. You even showed how easy it was to escape from. At about 1:42, you start running away from it, you get hit by a mage spell at about 1:46 (keep in mind that shot was fired at 1:43 and it took time to reach you). However, after that, you didn't get attacked by it again. So in about 5 seconds you had escaped from it. All that had to be done was to log out. Is a Player who is trying to kill you, going to let you get away that easily? Revenants can't run, they have no logical thought process, they can't predict what you will do, they have little to no chance of killing you. If they manage to use a magic attack 3-4 times in a row, and each hits and does alot of damage, then sure, you will die. You however have a small chance to be fronzen, by running away you will be out of its range within seconds, you have the ability to hide from it. I'll put it simply, their attacks are stronger than what another players are, but that doesn't make them overpowered when they lack advantages in so many areas.

When put that way it does seem to look as if training each seperately is better if only slightly. Something not being taken into account is the weapon. Using a whip, you gain X amount of Attack experience then you get X amount of Defence experience. You then have to swap to a different weapon to get that X amount for Strength, in a longer time period. The whip in just about every case is the fastest way to train, and the best way to use the Whip is on controlled. So you have to weigh up the bonus of getting an Attack and Defence level, then followed by slower Strength experience, or you could simply use controlled getting it all at the fastest rate. Does the bonus of getting those 2 levels earlier outweigh the loss in speed by using a slower xp/h weapon than the whip?

There was a post about this a while back in the General Discussion forum. I will admit that it can be a good training weapon, but you are overstating how good. I only performed the one test, on a secluded monster with low defence, and the Dragon Scimitar had more experience per hour than the Toktz-Xil-Ak (Split Sword). In these test with each weapon set I had the following: Dragon Scimitar: Strength Bonus: +112 Slash Attack Bonus: +109 Crush Defence Bonus: +283 TokTz-Xil-Ak: Strength Bonus: +94 Stab Attack Bonus: +70 Crush Defence Bonus: +248 Lower Strength Bonus with the Obsidian weapon, but the Necklace does make it able to hit higher. However in practice I only ever hit higher than the Scimitar twice. With the Dragon Scimitar I got 75,324 experience per hour and with the TokTz-Xil-Ak I got 74,160. The difference is small in the short term. In the long term, the decreased defence bonuses will result in an increased loss in damage, food, and hence money. The lower prayer bonus will consume more Prayer per hour and result in a higher cost also. So it is costing you extra in supplies for less experience per hour in this case. Finally one last thing. It is a fallacy to say what each method costs. If you buy the item, after you are done using it, it can be sold again. It is effectively a neutral cost. You could argue the price will drop, it could also be argued that it could go up and you will make money.

They are not. Your misconception is most likely due to the attack animation. The animation for the Scimitar appears slower when compared to a Whip, but the damage 'splats' are the exact same amount of time apart.

I believe what he is trying to say, is that if there is a noticeable difference between attack styles, that infers the NPC has a high Defence and should not be used to train on or such. Whips/Daggers/Scimitars are all the exact same speed. The knowledge base is correct in this respect.

That is true, but I have no idea how to change the numbers to accurately reflect this. While in the early years the amount of people getting say 99 Strength would be less than 1,000 (not based on any facts though), and in the past year up to maybe 14k. The amount of players getting 99 in a skill will increase exponentially. Also if you take into account about it being members or not, is also a factor but one that cannot be accounted for. At a rough guess, were the f2p/p2p part be added in, it would make the number 1 skill either Runecrafting or Mining. You would immediately think it is Runecrafting, however the difference between f2p and p2p isn't only number of players, but also the difference in training. Also, mining has been out for a longer period of time (not that much longer, but still longer). So just because a skill is members only, doesn't change how difficult it is, only changing the amount of players able to get it. That was the point of my list, it wasn't to show difficulty, but the least earned capes over timed. That will usually have some reflection to 'hardness' also. Another vital factor that i've not seen anyone bring up, is the definition of hard. Different people find different things hard. Someone may find Construction hard, simply because it is expensive and they cannot afford it. Someone may find Runecrafting hard as it is a very precise skill and requires attention. Someone may find Fishing hard because there is little to keep you entertained (boredom).

When you divide each number by the time it has been out for, you get a better idea of how often someone gets that skill to 99. By the way, your list is missing out number 17, you forgot the Woodcutting skill. Strength - 61,746 Cooking - 56,298 Fletching - 54,591 Attack - 47,582 Hitpoints - 38,415 Defence - 31,958 Ranged - 24,737 Woodcutting - 22,806 Magic - 22,107 Firemaking - 17,552 Fishing - 11,177 Thieving - 6,761 Prayer - 6,693 Crafting - 3,741 Smithing - 2,490 Mining - 1,718 Herblore - 1,557 10th July 2002 I think, I got from earliest update in news archive. Hunter - 6,211 21st November 2006 Slayer - 2,732 26th January 2005 Farming - 2,503 11th July 2005 Agility - 1,927 12th December 2002 Runecraft - 1,224 Unsure, around 17th February 2004 I think Construction - 970 31st May 2006 Summoning - 812 15th January 2008 When these are divided by the amount of years the skill has been out for, you get: 24)Strength - 9664.361063 23)Cooking - 8827.302744 22)Fletching - 8544.4747 21)Attack - 7447.439966 20)Hitpoints - 6012.639365 19)Defence - 5002.002573 18)Ranged - 3871.786021 17)Woodcutting - 3569.549743 16)Magic - 3460.143654 15)Hunter - 3006.651194 14)Firemaking - 2747.204117 13)Fishing - 1749.401801 12)Thieving - 1058.218268 11)Prayer - 1047.575043 10)Summoning - 846.8 9)Farming - 729.7084665 8)Slayer - 703.2299013 7)Crafting - 585.5338765 6)Smithing - 389.7298456 5)Construction - 381.5193966 4)Agility - 320.7273142 3)Mining - 268.8979417 2)Runecrafting - 253.6967632 1)Herblore - 243.698542 Now the numbers are not exact, as more people will have gotten them to 99 recently and I didn't bother to include the extra day from the leap year/s. However, this guives a very good indiction regardless. Keep in mind, this doesn't show how hard the skill is, instead it shows the average players per year who get it to 99. That can be influenced by many factors including time it would take to get 99, cost and liking of this skill.

You can't specifically say if melee or Range experience is more important. You are thinking about it in the wrong perspective. Yes you do get less Range experience compared to melee. But the difference was from about 56k Range to 77k melee (not sure if right, didn't go back to check numbers). Melee needs to get more experience than Range. You'll ask why, but the answer is simple, melee involves Attack, Strength and also Defence really (the average player will train Defence with melee rather than via Mage or Range). So melee needs 3x the experience as what Range gets. However, there is also the matter of your current stats. If you already have say 95 in Attack/Strength/Defence and only 80 in Range, you do need to focus on Range more. However that can be done whilst on Slayer. There are certain tasks that can be Ranged instead of melee'd, and in some cases the experience rate is only slightly lower. Fire Giants is a prime example of this. Range will get you 31.6-33k Slayer experience per hour and Melee will get 33-35k Slayer experience per hour. You can sacrifice some Summoning experience to get alot faster experience at Black Demons. It is only 22-24.3k Slayer xp/h when meleeing in the chaos tunnels, but it is up to 38.5-39.2k Slayer xp/h to use Range and a cannon in Taverly Dungeon. You keep over exaggerating these things. Unless you get more than 13mil Slayer experience, the average player will never even get 30 tasks of Mithril Dragons. Over the Course of 5.6million experience to Slayer, Zarfot did 318 tasks, 12 of which were Mithril Dragons. That means approximately it was assigned once every 467k experience. for 30 tasks, that means you need around 14mil Slayer experience. Of course this is not exact, but it is a good average. I've already shown about the total experience. Zombie Monkies was less than 2k extra experience per hour at the cost of 245k per hour. That isn't worth it. Armoured Zombies gives less total experience per hour, and the profit is only about 10k higher than Slayer. Slayer is still more efficient. Of course there are also Skills that can be raised faster, but that doesn't mean Slayer should not be raised. That is so contradictory. You may kill them 'thousands' of times, but you would kill Armoured Zombies 'tens of thousands' of times. Thats more repetitive is it not? With how your post is phrased, it infers that it doesn't have variety which makes it bad. So why would armoured Zombies be better in that respect? As for much less experience, I have already shown that Slayer is already fast total experience when compated to the Armoured Zombies. I am pretty sure everyone is awre that the prices will drop. However, you are thinking long-term. From the time a new item is released it will be sought after by alot of people. For that time period, alot of money can be made by the Slayer who already has the ability to kill the new monster that drops the item. Lets look at your examples then. Dark Bow, yes it is cheap now, but how much was it during the first week? Dragon Boots, cheap now yes, but they were selling for over 5mil early on, for a drop that is 1/125 (reasonably common) that is alot of money to be made. I don't see the point in why you even mentioned the others as it has little to do with Slayer. You also say Whips dropped, if I remember correctly the first Whip was sold for 26mil, it was also stable around the 14mil mark for a long time also. @homowz You should put those stat bars in your signature. At the moment you are just copy+pasting them to the bottom of your post. At the top of the page, you chould click "User Control Panel". When that comes up go to the options side bar and click "Profile", then click "Ediyt Signature".

False. When I saw this, I couldn't think of a word to properly describe it. So instead tell me then, is it possible to get kill 5 Spiritual Mages and got Dragon Boots on every kill?

It isn't quite fair to say that the Dragon Boots are luck based without also saying the same for Aviansies. The drops may be more common, but it is still luck based. The only way to remove luck from being a deceiding factor is to quite simply do things that do not require luck (like NPC trading). It is possible to kill 84 Aviansies and get no Addy bars, it is also possible to kill 5 Spiritual Mages and get Dragon Boots on every kill (I made it 84 and 5 as the chances of both happening are almost exactly the same, approximately once every 30-31 billion :lol: ). I also do not find how you can say the advantage over Aviansies is negligible. The profit rate is expected to be the exact same at a drop rate of 1/160. You are now saying it is about 1/130, so the profit is better. Also there is more experience gained from the Mages. At that drop rate and 230 kills per hour, the rate is around 500k, a 100k bonus. You also get about 39k extra experience per hour. Also, with what you have said earlier you say you lose out on melee experience by using a cannon. So would it not be prudent to regain melee experience, instead of getting more Range? As for it lessening, by looking at its GE graph it is true they are dropping, at the moment by less than 3k or so a day. However if you look at it in the long term, its prices keep rising and falling. They may even change to rising soon, you can tell this by looking at the daily line and the 5-day average line. Now yes, it is about 20% of the experience to 99, but I went through this two posts ago. Again you mention it is inefficient. Compared to Zombie Monkies, unless you make 25mil an hour, Slayer is more efficient. Compared to Armoured Zombies, unless you make over 660k Slayer isn't worth it. However, that number was based on your rates, and compared to generally what other people have been getting, your numbers are not the average. The profit per hour was about 30k lower than what you stated, and the experience rate lower by 5-15k. By excluding the lower experience rate and getting what you have said, but using the average profit of 145k that many people have gotten (evidence in the links I posted originally), if you make over 165k per hour, Slayer is more efficient. So Slayer is essentially the most efficient way to train at the moment.

Clearly you do not pay enough attention then. I'll quote why this is the case: Please explain to me where I have said that the rate of just over 600k was the average? This quote of what I said specifically shows that the average expected is to be lower. The point of what I posted wasn't to get the exact average, but to prove it was higher than you claimed. You posted that once the money spent on supplies was counted, that you would average less than 400k per hour. I showed that the drops (excluding Dragon Boots) pay for the supplies and even make extra. So it essentially comes down to any Dragon Boots revceived is 100% profit. You say your drop rate is about 160, and that is 230 kills per hour using melee. Guess how much that is per hour. 230/160*278,266 = 400,007.375. That is almostly exactly 400k profit per hour, and don't forget that you get more experience per hour here than at Aviansies. A combat familiar should always be used. If the only difference between us was the use of one and 20 kills, then it is definately worth using. 20 kills is worth 20/125*278,266 = 44,523. So unless the pouch costs more than that, it is worth using. Now this is one of the reasons it is hard to take you seriously, and it really annoys me as you have done it throughout this thread. I said the drop rate was around 1/125, you then argued that was wrong and that it is lower drop rate. I show the results of a test I performed, you infer it is inaccurate (by saying you can't extrapolate, even though I specifically stated it was lower). Then you now say the drop rate is 1/125, but it is said in a way as if you were right all along. If it was so generally accepted as you say, why was I wrong when I stated it originally?

It is hard to put down the drop rate, but from what I have seen, it is closer to 125. That doesn't mean I am correct, but what I believe it to be. I also believe you purposely lied to make your point.... 200 kills per hour is reasonable. I did a test to see how many I could kill, repotting every 10 minutes and I had protect from mage and superhuman strength on the entire time. My prayer bonus was +22 by the way. I used my Geyser Titan as the timer, but it died just before the hour ended. Here is what I got: The first picture shows me Summoning the Titan. In the second picture, the red bar you see is from the Geyser Titan dieing. I took 2 Pure sets and 10 Potions with me. The third picture shows my ending inventory. I also just noticed I accidentally saved the last 2 images as jpeg instead of png #-o , Oh well. In 55.5 minutes approximately, I killed 230 Spiritual Mages that is 248.6, which rounds off to 249 per hour. In my previous post, I said the kill rate was about 250, so I was very close : . Also, I logged out at one point during the test, if I hadn't wasted that extra 10 seconds waiting to log out, I might even have got one more kill in. That would make me rate of 250 dead on. Instead of showing what I spent on supplies and then showing at per hour, I'll go straight to per hour. That is: 1 Geyser Titan - 3,753.5 9 Prayer Potions - 77,331.9 Pure Set - 5,703 Total - 86,788.4 From the drops received, I gained: 4 Law runes - 1,204 6 Blood runes - 1,650 51 Chaos runes - 4,590 164 Water runes - 2,624 30 Mind runes - 270 48 Astral runes - 7,248 49 Fire runes - 441 219 Air runes - 2,847 120 Nature runes - 28,080 24 Death runes - 6,768 207 Pure Essence - 29,394 Total - 85,116 Total when compensated for 1 hour - 92,017.3 So, for you to say the cost of supplies brings it down, you are mistaken. Those little drops pay for the supplies used and even make money. Keep in mind I also got 2 Dragon Boots, worth 556,532 for the both. That means I made the equivalent of 606,885.1 gp/h. It will be slightly less on average as the drop rate is about 1/125. The drop rate for my test was at 1/115, and I got the boots on kills 40 and 99. The point is, after testing, it is shown that Spiritual Mages are even more worth it than I had originally thought. Since this entire thread is based on efficiency and Slayer, it is fine to say that they are in this for the long term experience. Due to that, 83 Slayer isn't really all that high compared to the rest of the way to 99. So it would be fine to say this is the money maker in my opinion. However, I am also not going to say you have to do this. The calculations to determine which is more efficient is not only pertinent to the one money making method. It doesn't matter how you make it, as long as you do. That is the point i've being trying to make.

Compfreak847 posted just before me. I was previewing this post and it said there was a new reply :lol: . So i'll add in my response here. Sorry for not being clear. It is neither of the things you have stated however. It is because not every task is worth 15 points. Over the course of 50 tasks, you will receive 15 points from 45 tasks, you will receive 75 points from 4 tasks, and 225 points from 1. This means in total you would get 1,200 points, which averages out to 24 per task. I had got the number 60k from when I had shown this many pages ago at those prices. The prices at the moment are: Mind rune - 9, and Death rune - 282. This means that a Slayer Dart package is currently worth 79,500. 24/35*79,500 = 54,514.3 That shows per task what you earn on average from the Slayer points. Since every task takes under an hour (except for about 5 or so that don't, but if their task number is low enough it takes under an hour also). So the money from Slayer points is guaranteed to be higher per hour than the 54.5k. I hope that cleared it up. You blocked Waterfiends, but that doesn't mean everyone will. They have a decent experience rate and the task results in an ample amount of charms and one I wouldn't suggest anyone to block. The reason I did not include the time taken to earn the money back from the cannon as that is not part of Slayer. The rate at which you are getting Slayer experience is increased. Unless I am mistaken (which I hope to god I'm not, and in that case that no-one else does this), once you complete a task using a cannon, do you go and get another task? Or go to earn back the money? The money can be made prior to even starting Slayer without the intention to even do Slayer, so there are some cases where the time spent to earn the money isn't needed at all. By that I mean, someone may have gotten to 99 Runecrafting making only Nature runes and made alot of money. They hadn't intended on doing Slayer, but since they have the money, they think why not? Not the best example really as it would infer their earning rate is alot higher than 400k and a cannon is even more so worth using than before. The flaw here is that you still believe the money has to be made by Aviansies. I have said so many times that it is foolish to think that the majority or average player will do this. There is a guide on these forums that describes how to make money by NPC trading, a fair few of those methods would make alot more than Aviansies, one method was even up to 720k profit per hour, but not anymore unfortunately. You can make up to 593k from Arnold at Piscatoris General Store. Up to 605k from Canifis Cloth Store, up to 799k from Pirate clothing. Up to 690k for Ogre Cloths. Seeing how a wide variety of people have access to it and how easy it is to do, would it not be fair to say that this would be the better money making option? By killing Spiritual Mages for Dragon Boots you are making money and also regaining melee experience. From what I have seen and others have also, the drop rate is about 1/100 to 1/125. It is quite possible to average 2 per hour without doing Slayer, that is 557k profit per hour, better than Aviansies. Since this thread is about Slayer, what better way to make money than from a Slayer monster? I'm not 100% sure on the kill rate w/o Slayer Helm, but you are likely to be getting around 75k melee experience per hour or more. According to how you worked it out, i'll follow the same process: In 48.24 minutes without a cannon you get 118,453.1 experience. It will cost 68,176 in supplies, and you will make about 53,776 from drops. That requires approximately 1.55 minutes to make back the lost money, and you also gain 2,585 experience. In 24.3 minutes with a cannon you get 76,789.1 experience. it will cost 201,132 in supplies and you will make about 53,776 (profit would remain the same). That requires approximately 15.87 minutes to make back the lost money, and you also gain 26,455.3 experience. This leaves us with a comparison of: No cannon - 49.79 minutes to get 121,038.1 experience at no cost. Cannon - 40.17 minutes to get 103,244.4 experience at no cost. Also note, in that extra time difference between the skills, you could earn a furthur 89,305 gp and 16,033.3 experience. This brings the cannon up to 119,277.7 experience, only 1,760.4 experience less in the same time frame. However, you will also gain an additional 89,305gp. By using this as your money maker, a cannon is worth using. It was even worth using before. Keep in mind that if you do not use a cannon on Slayer, you would have melee stats at 99 with alot of experience past it and not have 99 Range. It is better off having all at 99.

It is a long post, but I have tried to make everything as clear as I can and to add in all the relevant information. I don't see how you can say that after everything was mentioned about it. Cannon does use up money, but it isn't the drops that pays for it. The extra time pays for it, and the drops are still seperate. Although, even if you made slightly less than what was required for a cannon to be efficient, there is still hope. There is the money saved on supplies, this is something not often considered and will add up over time. There is the fact that you would receive the exact same value of drops, but in a shorter amount of time, this increases the profit per hour while doing Slayer. At Aberrant Spectres, i've always melee'd and used a cannon in the well, and i've never run out of energy. While it may not be the best, the spot where I set up my cannon is extremely good and hits a wide variety of them per rotation. The idea is to be efficient, what does this mean? It means if a cannon is shooting at a Spectre 2-3 times rotation, it will die quite quickly. Hence, the better option is to purposely go for the ones that do not get hit as often. There are a few spawns that once hit, and depending where you are standing will move to attack you. The cannon can no longer hit them. These specific ones are a high priority in which to melee. As I recall stating, Zarfot's rates are ot the asolute. Using the same cannon spot in his guide lower stats, I managed to get a slightly higher experience rate, from 45k in his guide, to 47.5k I was getting. So in short, if you had to resort to Range, maybe you should rethink your cannon position and how you prioritise which spectre you attack. I have tested Bloodvelds. I tested them back when I was still posting actually. When I was getting around to posting the results, that was when the thread was dieing, so I left it. My tests do show some very interesting conclusions in my opinion. I would simply showed the spreadsheet I had put all the information in, but I hadn't set it out well. There are cells all over the place with many different numbers (I still understand it though :thumbsup: ). I recorded experience gain, Supplies used, Drops gained - which include charms as well as the other drops. The tests were based on 54 minutes, the time in which a Unicorn will last (although I never actually needed the Unicorn). I used protect from melee the whole time in both tests, as well as superhuman strength. I repotted every 10 minutes. That was everything I can remember that I did at the moment. Now on to the results, I'll show what I got without a cannon first. [hide=Bloodveld Numbers received]Amount of Bloodvelds killed - 179 Attack experience gained - 86,106 Hitpoints experience gained - 28,510 Range experience gained - 0 Time taken - 54 minutes Prayer Potions used - 8.75 Pure sets used - 1.5 Cannonballs used - 0 Gold charms received - 14 Green charms received - 61 Crimson charms received - 11 Blue charms received - 3 Summoning experience gained from charms - 17,081.6 Value of drops received - 60,196 Ideally each number needs to be divided by 0.9 to get the rate per hour, as this was based on only 54 minutes. The only exception is for the pure sets which would still remain at 1.5 consumed, even still, the difference would have been minimal. So by altering each number to be one hour, you get: Amount of Bloodvelds killed - 199.3 Attack experience gained - 95,673.3 Hitpoints experience gained - 31,677.8 Range experience gained - 0 Time taken - 60 minutes Prayer Potions used - 9.72 Pure sets used - 1.5 Cannonballs used - 0 Gold charms received - 15.6 Green charms received - 67.8 Crimson charms received - 12.2 Blue charms received - 3.3 Summoning experience gained from charms - 18,979.6 Value of drops received - 66,884.4 Now onto what I got with a cannon: Amount of Bloodvelds killed - 355 Attack experience gained - 67,852 Hitpoints experience gained - 22,601 Range experience gained - 51,292 Time taken - 54 minutes Prayer Potions used - 8.75 Pure sets used - 1.5 Cannonballs used - 2,014 Gold charms received - 34 Green charms received - 111 Crimson charms received - 11 Blue charms received - 6 Summoning experience gained from charms - 28,871.2 Value of drops received - 104,798 When changed to one hour taken, you get: Amount of Bloodvelds killed - 394.5 Attack experience gained - 75,391.1 Hitpoints experience gained - 25,112.2 Range experience gained - 56,991.1 Time taken - 60 minutes Prayer Potions used - 9.72 Pure sets used - 1.5 Cannonballs used - 2,237.8 Gold charms received - 37.8 Green charms received - 123.3 Crimson charms received - 12.2 Blue charms received - 6.7 Summoning experience gained from charms - 32,079.1 Value of drops received - 116,442.2[/hide] From this, some conclusions can already be reached. Qeltar, who has higher stats, and you said being a well known player for being efficient (yet oddly enough believed him not to be efficient here anyway) did average far lower than I did, both with and without a cannon. The only real difference in spped between us was the use of superhuman strength, but that cannot compensate for the increase of 92 kills in an hour. This was also not even on Slayer, so there was no Slayer Helmet used. The kill rate for Slayer would be even higher than what I have now. This also shows that is actually a great place to train, even better than Zombie Monkies I believe . The kill rate would be furthur increased with the implementation of a combat familiar. This could be expected to bring in 5-10k experience, but I am unsure. Even without the added experience per hour from a familiar, this achieves an overall experience per hour of 146,330.7. In this case, we are not even using piety, only superhuman strength. Were I to use that, the cost would be the same per hour as Zombie Monkies. However, due to drops received, would still be cheaper by at least 70k. So..... that is more experience per hour than Zombie Monkies, and you lose alot less per hour than Zombie Monkies. So before Armoured Zombies, Zombie Monkies were never the best place to train : . Now lets get on to the calculations to determine efficiency. 199 kills per hour with no cannon. 395 kills per hour with a cannon. A cannon consumes 2,238 cannonballs per hour costing 411,792 (184 each). By using a cannon, 199 can be killed in only 30.23 minutes. In that time you would only use up 1127.5 cannonballs costing 207,460. You now have 29.77 minutes to make back that money. That is the equivalent of making 418,095 per hour. Now at first glance, with a money making rate of only 400k per hour, that doesn't seem worth it. However, by adding in all the money saved because the task was done in less time, does make it worth it. Amount of Prayer Potions saved - 4.82 Amount of Pure Sets saved - 0.75 Amount saved on Prayer Potions - 38,294 Amount saved on Pure Sets - 3,809 Amount saved overall - 42,103 This brings down the required money per hour needing to be made to only 375,992, which is worth it at a money earning rate of 400k per hour. However, there is technically more money that is saved. Since you kill the exact same amount of Bloodvelds, but faster with a cannon, the profit rate per hour is increased whilst doing Slayer. It would be brought up to the rate of money from drops you would have received had you down the whole hour with a cannon. In this case, that is 116,442 gp you are earning per hour. That means you are actually saving an extra 49,558 per hour. This brings the hourly rate need to only 326,434. We are still not done yet : . Due to the increased rate at which you kill them, you are expected to do on average more tasks per hour. This means the money made per hour from Slayer points is also increased. Using the median amount of Bloodvelds assigned (164.5) and comparing the two methods will show us the increased money earned for this task. Time to complete a task of 164.5 without a cannon is 49.6 minutes. That means on average you will complete 1.21 tasks of these per hour. That means per hour you are getting 29 Slayer points. These points are worth 0.83 of a Slayer Dart package, which are currently worth 79,500. This means you are making 65,947.4 per hour. Time to complete a task of 164.5 with a cannon is 25 minutes. That means on average you will complete 2.4 tasks of these per hour. That means per hour you are getting 57.6 Slayer points. These points are worth 1.65 of a Slayer Dart package, which are currently worth 79,500. This means you are making 130,900.6 per hour. That is an increase of 64,953.2 per hour. This brings the overall required rate to only 261,480.8. So is a cannon worth using on this particular task? The answer is of course yes. Something quite important to point out now, is that in all of the previous calculations that were done for the cannon, none were done to this full extent. Later on I had shown what the money saved on supplies was, but I did not factor in the increased profit rate from drops or the increase rate you make money from the Slayer points. Had this been done, I believe even the Skeletal Wyverns would have been brought under 400k per hour being required. This makes every single task that I gave examples to, worth using a cannon on. The last parts of what I quoted are quite confusing. This part in particular - "To be specific, .89 to 1 would make for 13.2k melee XP, not 11, but my melee XP was slightly less then 14.9 for summoning." I understand where the 13.2k number came from (yet still it was supposed to be 13.3k as 0.89*14.9 = 13.261, that rounds up), yet why did you say it was 13.2k melee xp not 11? Also, why was the melee xp slightly less than 14.9? The 14.9k was the amount of Slayer experience you said that a person could average (which I still after all this time ,find quite laughable that you still think that), and not the melee experience. Oddly enough, if you erase your typo's, we see that you have contradicted yourself, or maybe it was correcting, I do not know. The reason for this was the 11k was the number you stated as being the Summoning experience per hour from Slayer. You are now saying it is 13.2k (what I assumed you were supposed to be saying anyway, as those numbers weren't for melee). Furthur contradicting is that you also said it was 41 crimsons per hour for 14.9k Slayer experience which is 14,350 Summoning experience. You also say I claimed that the cannon times include the time taken to earn the money. Please show me were I said that if it isn't too hard. Finally about the amount assigned on average, it is hard to say an average, or even that what you have said is correct. It would make sense that the amount assigned is random, in which case the mean should be equal to the median. However, Slayer and Combat may have an effect and you will average slightly higher than the median. Nothing is known for certain. Also you say because your task numbers were higher, you would get more melee experience.... Had you been using a cannon on the task, that would also be the case, as is also more Range experience. So I am not quite sure what you were trying to point out.

It is hard to compare, as there is also something you are forgetting. By using the cannon (for now, exclude the cost of the cannonballs), on the same task, you are expected to receive the exact same sort of drops. The only difference is that it is gained in a shorter time frame. This increases the profit per hour over 75k. Since it also speeds up tasks, it also increases the rate at which you make money from the Slayer points. If you look in the hide in my previous post, the second quote provided is what i'll be referring to. You said; "Slayer = 41 crimson charms per hour, 75k profit, 59.7k melee XP, 19.9k HP XP, 14.9k Slayer XP per hour." That 75k profit (as well as other rates) was based on a 14.9k Slayer xp/h. Keeping to that ratio, if you got up to 22.5k Slayer xp/h, the profit would be 113.3k per hour. You say you could not efficiently melee them while using a cannon at Aberrant Spectres. The idea of being efficient is not to be efficient in just one area and excluding the rest. Doing so makes it so that you actually aren't being efficient. Hence the idea isn't just to efficiently melee, but simply kill. While melee is a part of that, so is the cannon. By saying that they are spread it is being biased in this case. Would they not be just as spread out were you to simply melee them? The cannon numbers, while worked out by me, they are not mine. Those were worked out using the rates supplied by Qeltar only. Also, while I was looking through the replies yesterday searching for those quotes I did notice something. While you did argue that the rates were wrong, you never actually showed were there was a mistake. An example was from the Kalphites. It had been per hour you use about 1530 cannonballs at a cost of 290k. Doing 182(?) of them took less time, and hence used less cannonballs. That means the cost of using the cannon on this task was not 290k. Yet you argued that the rate was over 400k, at around 600k, because you thought it still cost 290k to complete the task. So that is one case were you argued by your misunderstanding. I explained again above why the rate you got for Bloodvelds was not to be used. If you want to work out the difference between a Cannon (called C for now) and no Cannon on a task, you cannot compare W + C to D + 0C (I added a 0 in front of the second C to show that no cannon was used). You are bringing in another variable that cannot be accounted for and hence your rate received was invalid. I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer. For you to compare it with Dharoks, Dharoks would also have to of been used on the test with a cannon. According to Qeltar it was 55 more kills per hour with Dharoks. That means at a rough estimation, the kill count for Dharoks with a cannon comapred to Whip and cannon should be about 55 kills higher. Since it would slow you down by a bit to use cannon, i'll assume it is 50 kills. That makes it 162 kills without cannon and 362 with. This means it is approximately 262k per hour for a cannon to be worth using. Obviously that is not true. The ratio of Summoning:Slayer experience at 11k per hour would be 0.74:1. Yet you specifically said earlier on the ratio was 0.89:1. This is further shown by referring to the second quote in my hade tag in my previous post. "Slayer = 41 crimson charms per hour, 75k profit, 59.7k melee XP, 19.9k HP XP, 14.9k Slayer XP per hour." 41 crimson charms gives about 14,350 Summoning experience (average 350 each). So by your own words it contradicts you. Also using that same ratio, for 22.5k Slayer xp, that makes the Summoning experience 21.7k per hour. Yet also notice, that your ratio used is 0.96:1. Now I read your entire post, and I still cannot understand where you are getting 135k profit per hour. There is no way that you are completing 2-3 tasks in an hour, at least I don't believe so. Maybe I am just inefficient but I take at around an hour and a half to do 180+ bloodvelds, and that is WITH potting, no praying though. So how is adding 60k to the already a fore mentioned 75k even plausible? Maybe I am just soo oblivious to what everyone else does when slaying, however, I doubt it. I do believe cannons speed up dagg and kalphite tasks at LEAST by double the amount, but I am yet to see anyone use a cannon at bloodvelds, Abby Specs and Wyverns, in-fact I am yet to see a cannon anywhere but kalphites and daggs.. and I do not believe the profit made back is enough to pay for the cannon, nor for the 2x or 3x more you would of spent without one. I just don't see it. I find it hard to believe you read my entire post and then came to that conclusion. Your response quite clearly dictates your misinterpretation. The 75k profit came from what you were making per hour from the drops received, and nothing else. The extra 60k came from the Slayer points. That number was based on completing one task per hour, not 2 or 3. However, my point was that since nearly every task can be completed in under an hour (exceptions include Abyssal Demons, Black Demons, Dark Beasts, Skeletal Wyverns, Waterfiends and maybe more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head - all of these are dependant on task number also and won't always take over an hour) the rate was actually higher than 60k per hour. Even though it is guaranteed to be higher, I can't be certain to what extent. That is why adding 60k to the 75k is plausible. You have made another slight mistake. The cannon isn't being repaid solely on drops. It is being repaid due to how fast the task is being completed compared to without. Like at Kalphites, you kill them at approximately twice the rate as you would without a cannon. Now because you saved that time, some of that time can then be used to repay what the cannon cost. It requires the player to be able to make above a certain amount of money for it to be more efficient, for Kalphites if you make over 290k per hour, a cannon is worth using. Hopefully that cleared up why a cannon is used. No need to exaggerate. At current prices 400k is 2,174 cannonballs. For a task that takes well under an hour that makes your number incredibly unlikely. Can be assigned 130-199, the median is 164.5. At the average experience of 186 to Slayer for Bloodvelds, that is 30,597 experience per task. 2,174 cannonballs at average experience of 25 per cannonball is 54,350 experience - 27,175 damage. That measn to use up that amount per task, that per task you would only do 3,422 damage with melee which is only 13,688 melee experience. That quite clearly shows you do not not spend 400k let alone more than that per task of Bloodvelds.

You are being contradictory. You say that you cannot make 135k per hour, if you read my reasoning, those are your numbers. Even more contradictory really, is that your numbers are based off of a lower killing rate. It is hard to explain without examples, so I looked it up. I started at page 15, hit ctrl+f, typed in 75k, and searched through each page. The reason why I did this is because I knew that you were the one who mentioned the 75k profit. Here is what I found: [hide=Quotes showing proof of what was said]Page 17, Post 8: Page 17, Post 9: Page 17, Post 12: Page 17, Post 12: The next one is a reply I made to you at one point. You then replied to it, and agreed with it. Page 18, Post 3: Page 21, Post 13: [/hide] In all the quotes most of it isn't about the profit. However in each quote, you specifically mention the rate being 75k per hour. If you look at the 2nd last quote I supplied, you and everyone else can see that you agreed that the rate gets at least a 60k increase on top of the 75k. That is a 135k profit per hour being made. Using Zarfot's rate at which he gained experience and how many tasks, he was averaging approximately a bit over 80k. That brings the profit up to 155k. So all that is left, is your belief a cannon is not worth using. While I do not wish to redo the calculations again, I will post the results that were gotten from using Qeltar's rates. Kalphites - Taken from page 15 If you make over 298k per hour, a cannon is worth using. Aberrant Spectres - Taken from page 15 If you make over 393k per hour, a cannon is worth using. Skeletal Wyverns - Taken from page 15 If you make over 431k per hour, a cannon is worth using. Level 90 Dagannoths in Waterbirth Dungeon - Taken from page 15, but altered to exclude the mistake If you make over 406k per hour, a cannon is worth using. Bloodvelds - Taken from page 15 If you make over 169k per hour, a cannon is worth using. Those are all the ones I could be bothered to find. In every case, a value was never placed on the Range experience gained from the cannon. If that were to be calculated in, the amount needing to be made would be lower. Also, you would save money on supplies because the task would be completed quicker. I found out that it was about 19k saved on Skeletal Wyverns, which brings it down to 412k being needed. Due to money saved on supplies only 364,251 is needed for a cannon to be worth using on Aberrant Spectres. 382,379 is needed for the Dagannoths, 136,945 is needed for the Bloodvelds. So in every case there, a cannon was worth using, except for maybe the Wyverns. The value of Range experience may bring it under 400k, it may not, that is dependant on the player, and cannot be calculated. In short, it is personal preference for Wyverns. Also just to cover something else. You compared using a Whip with a cannon, to Dharoks and no cannon. These cannot be compared to determine if a cannon is efficient to be used on Bloodvelds, a point which you seemed unwilling to accept. The only way to determine this is for the only difference in the tests to be the use of a cannon or not. Otherwise you bring in another factor that affects kill rate, which makes the comparison invalid. Even still, you worked it out to being 350k approximately being required. This amount is lowered also due to the money saved on supplies.

Just to start my post off, the reason I stopped replying before was because the thread was dieing so I just though I might as well let it. I have no intention of going back to debating over every calculation done previously in the post. It was a long while ago and I can't remember most of it. That said, there are some things I want to point out in regards to some of the more recent replies. I plan to make 70b from killing chickens for life. The rates are hard, colf, and have been tested. There is no way you could make money faster than normal training. Your response to Lep's post was idiotic. Who said Lep made money faster by using Slayer? What do you consider "normal training"? I remember reading Lep's Slayer guide (http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=180&t=748331) and from this you can see why Lep made so much. Although technically not, it just looks like more money was made. The average money made based on drops for every player is essentially the exact same. The difference is how they choose to train, which cuts into that money, and hence lowering profits. Lep sacrificed a great deal of speed in order to spend as little money as possible. An example is what Lep takes to Abyssal Demons according to the guide; A Slayer Gem, 1 Super set, and 24 Pineapple Pizza. As can be clearly seen, there is very little in the way of speed increase. The time at which an average player being efficient would pot is once every 10 minutes, making a super set only last 40 minutes. In Lep's case, there will be little to no bonus for approximately half of the task depending on the amount to kill. This inventory is the same in most cases also. There are many more reason why the speed is slow, but you get the idea. The profit Lep has made (150mil appararently), would be approximately twice as much as someone who used up money to gain faster experience. The rate at which Lep would be getting experience compared to such a person is unknown, but half would be a decent estimation. I don't think you can honestly expect people to read every single reply in this thread, or any thread for that matter which has a large amount of posts. All the information that a responder should need is more often than not on the first post in the thread and the last few pages. This allows them to understand what the thread is about and what the current discussion is at the moment and how their reply should be framed. There is however a flaw here. The first post in this thread has out-dated information. An example is where it still says Zombie Monkies is only a loss 40k, it was determined pages back this was a great deal higher. There is something I want to go over just so that everyone else can see without having to search through the thread. At the moment I am trying to recall the experience gained per hour for Slayer that I stated earlier on in this thread. I believe it was 22.5k Slayer xp/h, 65k melee xp/h, which means it is 12.5k Range xp/h, Therefore 21,666.7 Hitpoints xp/h, and I think the average Summoning experience per hour was calculated to be around 20.25k (since it was a 0.9:1 sum/slay xp ratio). That all adds up to 141.9k Experience per hour. As for Zombie Monkies, that was simply 100k melee xp/h, 33.3k Hitpoints xp/h and 10k experience per hour from a familiar helping. That was an easy 143.3k xp/h. You mentioned a few times that Slayer would be 75k profit per hour. I remember then adding on to that the average money received per task (Slayer points) as being worth about 60k. Since nearly every single task can be completed in under an hour, it would average out to completing more than 1 task per hour. This means it is actually slightly more added on than 60k, but we'll stick with 60k. This brings it up to 135k+ profit per hour on average. So for one hour of Slayer you get 141.9k overall experience and make 135k. For Zombie Monkies to get that much experience, it would take 59.4 minutes. In that time at Monkies, you would lose 108.9k in supplies and miss out on the 135k from Slayer. This means that because you went for the faster experience over Slayer, you lose out on 243.9k per hour. For Monkies to be more efficient, you have 0.6 minutes to make back that 243.9k. That works out to being the equivalent of 24,967.5k per hour, effectively 25mil per hour. Since it is impossible to average that high per hour, Monkies are not more efficient That being shown, there is still the matter of Armoured Zombies. You've stated that they are 100k melee xp per hour and 175k profit per hour. This means overall you would get 133.3k xp/h when you calculate in the Hitpoints. So now, Slayer gets more experience per hour than this method. One hour of Armoured Zombies gets 133.3k overall experience and 175k profit. For Slayer to get that much experience, it would take 56.4 minutes. In that time at Zombies, you would be losing out on the additional profit gained of 40k per hour. For Slayer to be more efficient, you have 3.6 minutes to make back that 40k. That works out to being the equivalent of 660k required. At making 400k per hour, Slayer supposedly isn't worth it. However really, the difference is minimal, and I am sure more people would hate having to effectively re-train their melee skills to 99 again to get 99 Slayer. Even still, there are some more issues. Now i'll go through the main reason why this number isn't quite correct. The biggest reason is simply that your rates supplied aren't correct from what I have seen and others have tested. Here are links to 2 guides on these forums for these (I swear there was a 3rd, but could not find it): Armoured Zombies Guide 1 Armoured Zombies Guide 2 The first guide is pretty bad in the explanation in my opinion however, reading through the replies is quite helpful in getting an idea of many peoples rates. The second guide is quite indepth and includes experience rates and money. From the second guide, the average money per hour is said to be about 145k per hour (not entirely sure if that was money from drops or the profit, I think profit). Also in the second guide, these were the rates provided: Bandos with gear exp per hour (average) 85K Full Void Knight with gear exp per hour (average) 95K (+) Proselyte with gear exp per hour (average) 85K That obviously doesn't include Hitpoints, and more than likely is without Summoning (I am unsure if your numbers were with or not also). I remember reading a post someone saying it was about 10k Summoning experience per hours worth. That means using void you would get 95k+10k+31.7k = 136.7k per hour. In short, it was a slightly higher experience rate than you gave but lower profit. Not completely sure about the experience rate still as in that thread many people seemed to think it wouldn't be a 10k increase compared to Bandos or Proselyte, also not sure about the Summoning rate. Rather than showing all the steps for the calculations i'll just say what it came out to, which was 272.9k. If you can make over that, Slayer is more efficient. So for everyone still saying Slayer is bad, well.... that is up to you. However, you can't say the reason for it being bad is because it is inefficient : .

This is also what I have assumed to be the case. There is also on occasion where you will hit 1 0 and that is all. You only get 2 hits, but believe it or not, it makes sense. Myweponsg00d's explanation to how the special works explains why this happens. This is due because on the first hit, you hit a 1. From my experience the 2nd hit can still hit reasonably high, but it of course can never equal or exceed the first hit. Meaning in this case, that it cannot equal or exceed 1, meaning it has to hit 0. Due to the nature of this, the last two hits don't show as it would be pointless to show (25% of 0 or 200% of 0 is still 0). So hitting a 1 for your first damage is actually worse than a 0 :lol: . My claws : .

Just felt I should reply to this. I had the exact same problem, but for longer than 6 months. While I did change my isp, that wasn't the problem. The wires that were connected to our house for the phone line were actually damaged. Got that fixed and now it doesn't drop out like it used to : . With the idea however, I do think it has alot of potential. The only thing is you would be introducing a whole range of new items all at once. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but it would be interesting to see the outcome.

I have always hated Smithing, even though money isn;t an issue, it is just so boring. I'd rathre do this; :wall: then keep going with Smithing past 80 (which is what I am aiming for). I was planning on raising Slayer after a few of my other goals.

Got level 78 Smithing and 2k Total now :

I brought up the ROW as with the Berserker Ring, or even the Warrior, you would get a slightly higher rate per hour. A ROW doesn't affect that but it does have an effect on the profit per hour. I brought up the DFS for tasks where you have to kill Dragons. Baby Black Dragons, while they do not have a firebreath attack, the Green Dragon in the vicinity does. For Mithril Dragons, the extra +7 Strength bonus helps and the Defence bonuses are invaluable. Whether you decide to use protect from melee or magic, this shield will provied better Defences in either aspect. Also at Skeletal Wyverns, not only is the Strength bonus helpful but also the Defence bonuses. I do not use any protect prayers at Wyverns even though both Qeltar and Zarfot do. Piety here combined with the Defences also me to comlpete the task in one trip depending on its size. The multicombat at Nechryaels and Dust Devils provides more of a bonus than you think. You do not need to wait until the one you are attacking is dead for you to move on the next. Like you mentioned before, if you think it is dead and run off to the next. In the Slayer Tower you would lose time, in the Chaos Tunnels you do not. Same principle as with Dust Devils. At Dust Devils when on Slayer I do not use piety or void and I get 100 crimsons per hour, which is about 110 with gold, green and blue calculated in. So unless the Slayer helm and +10% Strength prayer increases the kill rate by 33% (125 compared to 94, 94 was for the same weapon), which could be the case, but if it isn't, then he simply isn't going as well as he could be. This applies to every other task really where he isn't going as well as can be done. Yes you will also note how much melee experience you get. The point is you do not need to have it on a Slayer task. Wear the same equipment in both cases, but on one test use a cannon. That is all that is required. Huh? Did I not mention I haven't tested how many cannonballs are used per hour? Also, what were my "assume ones"? When I said 80k in Chaos Tunnels and 100k with Range? Those were not made up. I get just a bit over 80k melee experience on average in the Chaos Tunnels while on Slayer. I got the the rate via Range in Taverly Dungeon from Zarfot's guide. No it does not. Did I not just actually mention this before? The supplies used to actually train Summoning costs about 80mil from 1-99. The time it takes to train the kill that much is less than 13 hours. Any extra cost you are adding is due to how you are collecting charms. If you are training Slayer, then you are training Slayer, the charms are bonus drops that add no time to you training Slayer. Therefore you are essentially getting them using up no time yourself in this case. The amount of 33% was an assumption. Made up numbers and errors? Yes. Why do you now persist in lying about it too? Using 2.7k cannonballs per hour at Black Demons, and where did that number come from? You said I mentioned it, even looking through what I said, I see no mention of anything relating to the amount used per hour. The same with 2.3k at Hellhounds. The amount of damage dealt by cannon and by yourself? You made those up too. So now we even have furthur evidence of you making up numbers. I cannot do the calculations at the moment as I have not tested them. I've not been on Runescape in ages as a matter of fact, i've been to busy with school lately to use up too much time playing Runescape. Real calculations? Like the made up ones with Black Demons and Hellhounds you just did? I'd hardly call those "real". I have through and shown the cannon is worth it so many times, it is not my fault that you are unable to comprehend that. The method of showing it was very clear and easily set out for you to follow. The fact that you think the can be compared means you have no idea how to do this. Who says the melee experience is 50% of the total? Have you actually tested this? Do you actually know this? Or did you make this number up too? They cannot be compared. You are purposely skewing the results to without a cannon, so how is that a fair test? You give it alot of additional bonuses, but only to the test without a cannon. It is like getting two level 138's to fight (or any levels for that matter), but one of them can't use any armour or weapons. How is that a fair fight? If you want to use the Slayer Helm and prayer, you also have to use it on the test with a cannon. Otherwise, simply do not use it for either. Amazingly, I have already done the calculations without using the Slayer Helm or prayer on either and shown Kalphites to be more efficient with a cannon. Maybe they forgot? There has been one person that has asked what 287 meant and then remember it was to show if you had read that section. Why would he need to read every single reply? If he had read every single one and then posted exactly the same thing, would you believe him then? You may get at your levels 59.7k, I cannot argue that. At my levels I get over 65k. I also average over 20k Slayer experience per hour, you can only get 14.9k. Just because you cannot, that does not mean that nobody can. I do not even pay 100% attention either, there is no such thing as 100% attention. It isn't simply a matter of maxing out. Total levels and experience are used at evey level, not just at 2376 total. As for saying only 83 Players have maxed out, you have to remember that it takes a long time to do that. Everyone puts a different amount of effort into reaching those goals. Total levels are shown in highscores, so yes other people can look at it. There is no sacrifice to train it, unless they are training at your rate. I personally feel that if you can only get that much experience from Slayer at that level, everythin else you are getting is also very questionable. Tell me, what is the point in training Woodcutting or Firemaking? Woodcutting can't be for money, there are better ways to make money elsewhere. Firemaking can't be for money either. There is no point in getting money via Aviansies or Godwars either. You can merchant for money and that requires no levels. Total levels and experience possibly? You've inferred that you believe them to be useless. So it comes down to fun. Every single skill in this game has no purpose what so ever except fun. You should not argue about a person's choice to train a skill.