ydrasil

I don't see how you can say you haven't made up numbers. The loss at Zombie Monkies was made up, you also argued that 8 crimsons per hour during Slayer was lucky. I might go do some tests anyway. I have already pointed out out why several times. At Abberant Spectres when he uses the cannon, his main weapon is a SGS. That is slower than a Whip+Defender and would have increased the number of kills per hour (therefore also making a cannon even more worth using on them also). While it wouldn't add a significant bonus in the short term, better equipment would save time in the long term. On Gargoyles he doesn't use a Crush weapon, Saradomin Sword and a Godsword is faster than a Whip. At Mithril Dragons he wears Infinity boots while wearing Verac's armour. Since he would either be praying Melee, in which case he shouldn't even be wearing Verac's armour due to the Mage attack, or he could be praying Magic, in which case the additional Magic defence is irrelevant. Also note he doesn't use a DFS, this falls under the equipment section. He also often wears a ROW, this has no bearing on kill rate, and a Berserker Ring is better. In some cases, he kills monsters in the Slayer Tower or another place when there is amuch better option to kill them elsewhere. Like with Nechryaels, in the Chaos Tunnels it is mutlicombat and the spawns are close together, same as with Dust Devils. For Spiritual Mages it is better to wear a Zamorak Robe Bottom, that way you lose no extra attack bonuses for only 1 less prayer bonus. At Suqahs he wears Karils and Verac Helm, taking damage from both the Mage and Melee at higher rates. Best way is to wear melee Defence and use protect from magic prayer. At Warped Terrorbirds using range protect is very helpful. At Waterfiends you mention that you average about 100 crimsons per hour, that is over 100 kills, about 125 or so. Qeltar doesn;t even get 100 kills per hour, so that must mean he isn't being as efficient as he could be. There is many more, but those are some good examples of why he isn't going as good as he could be. So you say the average is 75k from tasks due to drops and such. In that case it is actually at least 57k higher than that. You must also remember that you receive on average 24 points for finishing every task. Those 24 points are worth just over 57k. Since nearly every task takes under an hour to complete, you will get at the very least an extra 60k. That is 135k. Zarfot has a log of the amount of different tasks he received for 5.4m experince after getting to 26.8mil. Assuming he continued to average 26k experience (which is more than likely, as with his methods involving a Steel Titan he has gotten even faster), it would have taken about 207.7 hours. He completed 297 tasks in the time. That is one task every 42 minutes. That means on average due to buying those packs of runes he got an additional 81.6k per hour on top of whatever drops he may have received. This is why your rate of 50k profit per hour was always perceived as too low. I mentioned this during my first few posts on this thread I believe also. Without testing no average can be achieved. You can't mathematically show how much of an effect it will have because we don't know how much of an effect everything else has in the first place. The purpose of what I was saying was to show it from a different perspective. Your Strength only ever comes into play when you hit, therefore the extra bonus is always coming into play when you hit. I'm just to leave this now because I know it cannot be gotten mathematically with what we know and it will have to be tested. That isn't true. It isn't a 15% increase in damage so therefore what you have shown is incorrect. It would be correct if it was a 15% increase in damage however. A 15% Strength increase will result in less than a 15% damage increase meaning it won't be 1.15X I have enver stated it was 26k Slayer experience which is then 104k melee experience. It is 26k Slayer experience though. You keep bringing up it doesn't provide as much experience per hit, while that is true, you are doing alot more hits per hour with a cannon. I'll respond to the inefficient part furthur on. They don't need to be on a Slayer task. As I said which you then argued the same point is that if on Slayer or not has no bearing on the cannon. You really need to stop pushing this. All the tiny things you keep mentioning simply do not provide enough of a benefit for them to be better. There is little room for error at Monkies and you cannot increase it any more. However, at Dust Devils there is room for errors which I do make and yet I get slightly more experience. So i'm not even getting the most amount of experience possible as it is. Also your hits aren't "significantly" higher than mine, your extra Strength levels with piety and the equipment you described hits one higher than me. Though at the same Strength level with the equipment you described the max hit is the same. The next couple of sections are just full of errors and assumptions. The thing is, you are comparing range+cannon the melee. If it was just a comparison of range to range+cannon at Taverly you find the cannon makes it more efficient. "Assuming you can fire 2.7k cannonballs per hour at black demons (I haven't tested, but that's the number you used)" When did I ever say that? I've never given an amount of cannonballs used per hour for Black Demons, that is another made up number based on no testing or anything. Just so you know, meleeing in the Chaos Tunnels is over 80k on Slayer, and Ranging in taverly is about 35k Slayer experience per hour, it results in over 100k Range experience per hour when done correctly. With Hellhounds, where did you get 2.3k cannonballs per hour from? Also note that for a cannon to be as effective as possible at Hellhounds you also need to be ranging. This way the cannon can hit as many targets as possible and increasing experience by as much as possible. If you cannon did kill 66% of the Hellhounds and melee did 34% of the kills (which makes no sense at all as using melee means cannon can only hit one target), how does that change into a 33% reduction in charms. Increased number of kills results in more charms, not less. It is like saying at Fire Giants because I used a cannon it increased the number of kills by 50% but I got 50% less charms than normal. Summoning also does not cost 240m, it only costs 80m. That is a common misconception. The skill itself uses up very little time to train also, approximately 13 hours to get from 1-99 Summoning using only crimsons (2800 per hour with a Kyatt). It is also possible to say that if you train Slayer, getting the charms for Summoning takes up no time. You are there to get Slayer experience, the charms are a bonus at no additional time. A major flaw in your calculations here is you have assumed that you get the same kills per hour with cannon as without. There was too many assumptions, made up numbers and errors here to even begin to think this shows proof one way or the other. Next try you try to do this, make it easier to read. Don't have it in practically one giant paragraph, it is extremely hard to follow in that set out. You keep saying it is 2 experience per damage from a cannonball and 5.3 experience per damage from a Whip. You then try to argue that it will reduce your overall experience. Truthfully, yes and no. For a set amount of kills, the overall experience will be lower. As for per hour, the experience will be higher. It doesn't make your Slayer experience "rise slightly due to faster kills", it increases it by alot in this case. It gets an extra 18.72k Slayer experience per hour, a 114% increase in kills. I'd hardly call that a slight rise because you believe it isn't even possible to get that much experience per hour on average anyway, the use of a cannon adds that much to per hour, more then doubling the rate. Your Hellhound calculations was based on so many assumptions that it shows no proof to either side and to be honest, you wasted your time doing those ones like that. While it may be less overall experience per task, you cannot deny that this task is done in less than half the time. In the same amount of time as without a cannon you would get more overall experience so that factor doesn't matter here. You can't even do the calculations of how much damage is done by cannon and how much by melee without testing either. I can even use the calculations you did on Kalphites to show you are wrong. For a start this is wrong. These two methods cannot be compared, and put simply you are an idiot if you think they can be. Doing it like this you are comparing a Slayer Helm and the use of Prayer to having neither of thoses bonuses and a cannon. It does not show whether or not a cannon is worth using. The only way you could do that is for the kills with cannon, you also increased with the use of a Slayer Helm and Prayer. That makes the only difference in speed the cannon, and you can determine how much faster the task becomes due to the cannon. You didn't factor in the money saved on supplies either. It is about 8,126 saved on supplies if it takes 35 minutes with a cannon. So you say because you used a cannon, you will now only get 64.5k experience instead of 89.8k correct? That 64.5k experience was gained in only 35 minutes compared to 60 though. Thst means in an hour you get 110.6k experience at that rate. So it is a loss of 23% of the experience due to no cannon. So that drops the earning rate required. I mentioned this before, yes it is less overall experience for a set amount of kills. For a set time however, the amount of experience is higher. So the extra time saved allows you to increase the experience earned by an even greater deal of time. The point is, for the same amount of time spent on Slayer, your experience rate is alot higher with a cannon. So because he didn't numbers in his post means he didn't read yours? I believe the rate is actually higher than 65k, I only brought it down to 65k to appease you. That is the point though. Your numbers don't necessarily contradict. That is simply what he gets, you get less. As I have poitned out many times, Qeltars rates were not on Slayer or using prayer and his many disadvantages. You "adjusted" rates might be correct for you, but that is the point, that is for you. Other players are able to get higher. Just because you cannot doesn't mean that nobody can. Also, just because "most RS players" don't pay attnetion according to you, that doesn't mean all do. Who's to say he doesn't record every bit of experience he gains? Who's to say he doesn't pay any attention at all? We can't make those assumptions. Glad to see that someone understands what I was talking about earlier with the value of experience.

Congratz Mic on finally getting maxed total! To think I first met you when you only had 8 skills at 99, and since then you've maxed every other one. No rating is good enough for you : .

This post is one of the wrost you have done. You make up more facts and also says I said things that show your side (when I said nothing of the sort). If you want to retest with just whip, you'll also need to retest the cannon. If you do test it though, how can we trust you weren't purposely being biased? You have made up so many numbers and tried over and over to say I have said things that prove your point (like later down in this post you mention the 65k melee experience per hour, and then alter it to suit you). Seeing as it was shown that they required less than 400k, that means they are more efficient. Answer truthfully. Which one will have a more accurate average, someone who tested while not on Slayer using less efficient methods to which you then "adjusted" to be on Slayer OR someone who has done well over 1,000 hours of Slayer and has 32.4mil Slayer experience and has detailed his methods in which many other people are also able to achieve? If you were to answer truthfully the answer has to be without a doubt the latter. As for you saying you lost money, you are only 77 Slayer, what did you expect? You start receiving better drops from 80 Slayer. Nechryaels drop on average at least 1 pair of Rune Boots a task and many Rune Full Helms over time. At 83 Slayer you get Dragon Boots which are sold for in excess of 300k and are reasonably common. All the drops such as Fire Runes, Mystic pieces, Herbs, Herb Seeds, many different Rune items and other such items all add up over time. I personally had about 1.5mil worth of Rune items all received from Slayer or some clues I did not that long ago. That was only from a few Slayer levels also. The 80k came from comparing Whip to Whip+cannon. You didn't prove them to be 360k for a reason I have stated so many times which you seem unable to comprehend, so i'll not bothre posting it again. If you didn't understand why the first 4 times or so, I don't see what once more will do. I at least try to show where you are wrong, I don't make up number to prove my point. You simply say "Your numbers, again, are so far off that they don't even need to be argued against". That is such a pathetic excuse. It is still true. Strength bonus and level can only have an effect when you hit is what you have said. If you have only level 1 Strength and 70 Attack (just an example), and you hit a 0, what is the difference between that 0 and another hit with a higher Strength level? Strength level/bonus only comes into effect when you hit regardless of the level or bonus at the time. What I am trying to show is that the Strength increase will always be in effect. I'm not saying that it will induce a 15% increase in experience just because of the Strength. I am simply trying to show that it is always in effect. There is no way for you to show that the results are simply halved because they don't always hit. Even if they were 7.5% from Strength and 7.5% from Attack is still a 15% increase. Again you make up a number providing no evidence to it being true. You say the "The effects of the bonuses of slayer helm, very similar to equipment bonus, have been determined to be roughly 50:50". Since when has that ever been determined? Where is there evidence of this? How do you even know how much effect the Attack bonus provides? The answers are; Never, non-existent, and you don't. You come back to you can get a more accurate result by deriving it mathematically compared to testing. I would agree, but that is only if you knew the formula that is sued to determine how you hit. Since we do not know how much effect it has it is just as inaccurate to attempt to do it mathematically by making up formula based on no evidence. That is only true because you seem unable to see when you are wrong. The average Slayer experience is not 15k per hour, this has been shown many times. Zarfot did start at maxed stats and 99 Slayer, but he did get 13.8mil Slayer experience in 530 hours. That is 500 hours for 13mil, due to averaging 26k Slayer experience per hour. A player need not have started at 1 Attack/Strength/Defence when they got 1-99 Slayer either. They may have been like you and believe that is was inefficient when it isn't and have 99 in every other stat but this one (obviously unlikely). The point is, it won't take 900 hours to get 99 Slayer. What is also funny to note is to see you skewing the results again - 13,034,431/15000 = 869 hours. So what was my apparent source of error? So if you significant proof that the numbers are wrong, does that not also mean that the Dharoks numbers are wrong and it is 360k either? That means you have proven nothing either so you need stop saying that. Test it yourself then, or I can instead. If it doesn't die I don't just ignore it, I kill it. Had you even watched the vid, which I am starting to doubt you ever did, you'll see that it is easy to compensate for. Simply because your equipment isn't better as you believe it to be, your stats have a very minimal advantage and Dust Devils are simply a better monster to train on. Is that so hard to understand? However yo are now being hypocritical, you say that you can pick up from at the Zombies with no loss in time. Have I not been saying all this time that the same can be easily done at Dust Devils? Yes the charm drop rate would be alot lower, but you do kill them significantly faster. Just because you can melee them somewhere else easier, doesn't make ranging terrible. The cannon won't add that large of a cost as you seem to think. Telegrabbing charms from Hellhounds was a bad idea anyway. The drop mostly gold so you are not losing out on much experience. If you honestly think the killing speed wouldn't make up for the cost, you are mistaken. What is faster, killing one at a time with no cannon, or attacking as many as you want as if it was multicombat using a cannon? With the Nechryaels, you have never been there. How do you know they are bad? You can hit 9 at a time regardless of what you think, they can summon Death Spawns, which you do also hit, and they have a low Defence. Unlike at Ape Atoll, these also provides you with many crimsons and other charms, as well as a multitude of drops. That cuts the cost down significantly. Now this is where you are wrong, i'll actually show why also rather than simply only saying you are wrong. [hide=Aberrant Spectres]As you can see, without a cannon he gets 182 Kills per hour. With a cannon he gets 390 kills per hour. (Don't say but he is on Slayer, he isn't, why else would he use the Salve?) Using a cannon takes up 2364 cannonballs per hour. With a cannon, it takes 28 minutes to kill the same amount as without. That means in that 28 minutes he used up about 1103.2 cannonballs. That costs about 209,608. You now have 32 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make 393,014 per hour. That means I made a mistake the first time, I know what the mistake was also. I added an extra 2 minutes to the usage of a cannon. I shouldn't have, because that time was already in with the time taken. So that means at 400k per hour, a cannon is owrth using on this task. I've no doubt you'll mention range experience, and that comes down to how you value it. At about 5gp per experience, that means you got 137,875 worth of experience. Even at 3gp each it means you got 82,725. That makes a cannon even more worth it and definitely should be used. Perhaps I find it odd, but why did your number of cannonballs suddenly drop from 1.5k to 1.1k? I realize that you made a mistake in your math, and you were over adjusting for the cannon, but why did the cannonball number suddenly drop, adn why is the damage per cannonball so much higher then our other tests\mathematically proven ones?[/hide] This is when I showed the calculations for the Spectres. I hasn't even included the money saved on supplies or added in the Range experience. Please explain to me how your reply was proof of it being wrong? You mention it dropping from 1.5k to 1.1k but from what I see I never even mentioned anything close to 1.5k, so that only proves you were wrong. You mention damage per cannonball, it wasn't "so much higher as you seem to think. You said it would average 24 Range experience each and I had used 25. Keep in mind I had even added an extra 2 minutes to the time taken when I shouldn't have. I next bring up the calculations here: [hide=Aberrant Spectres]Aberrant Spectres was proven to be 393,014 gp per hour needing to be made for a cannon to be more efficient (so obviosuly that one is below 400k also). Take off the money saved no supplies brings it down to 364,251gp per hour. Say you value Range experience at 4gp each (just over 3.67). Then you also gain 105,888 worth of experience (at 4gp per experience and average 24 experience per cannonball which is 12 damage). That brings it down to 258,363 per hour that need to be made. Worth it? I think so. Unless the 1/2 hour we're calculating with cannon saves us 30k in supplies, I doubt it. Your equations are also quite inconsistent; notice that some of the equations include range XP (such as most of mine, at least the 'final result' ones) while others don't; I think we need to get our numbers straight first anyway, as you continue to insist on using incorrect values.[/hide] You mention unless it really was 30k saved in supplies (which I then proved in my next post and you agreed with) that it was wrong. Since I proved you saved about 30k on supplies that must mean the Spectres are worth it after all. You say I insisted on using incorrect values. There was no incorrect values. They came directly from Qeltar's database, and oddly enough the first time I showed the calculations you never even said the numbers were incorrectly used. So you proved that these were wrong? I might have gone blind because I see nothing in the way of proof here. Level 90 Dagannoths now. I started off with making a mistake which you pointed out, this is it: [hide=Dagannoths]177 kills per hour without a cannon. 280 kills per hour with a cannon. You use up 1,244 cannonball per hour at a cost of 236,360 per hour. 177 Dagannoths will take only 33.2 minutes with a cannon. In that time you will use up 688 cannonballs at a cost of 130,720. You now have 26.8 minutes to gain back that 130,720gp. You need to make 292,520gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. Sevral numbers are off. First of all, your kill rate per hour is 280 with a cannon, so 280/60 = 4.67 kills per minute, right? At that rate, 177 dagannoths divided by 4.67 kills per minute is 38 minutes, not 33. Also, you forgot to include in all of your figures that you were getting 2.67x the XP from melee, but that is (very roughly) made up by the Avansies XP. At 22 minutes to earn 130,720gp, that's 357k per hour - fast approaching our 400k per hour rate. Now take the fact that cannonballs are 192, not 190 each, and that adds another 3k to our total (Nitpicking, I know :lol: ) for 360.2k as the break-even cost of a cannon at daggys. On the good side, his cannonballs are more in line, at 11.6 XP per; slightly lower then my calculated numbers, due to daggys 97 hits vs. my 120 baseline, resulting in more KO hits. So, in conclusion, it would appear that a cannon is worth using for dagganoth tasks - albiet with 40k cheaper then our avansies, it will be saving a couple of minutes out of an hour, with a very small effect on the dagganoth XP, and a virtually unnoticeable effect on our slayer averages overall.[/hide] I then fixed that mistake and got this: [hide=Dagannoths]That is because I made a mistake, i'm not sure how I got 33.2 either :? . 177/280 = 0.632 or 63.2%, that means it is indeed 38 minutes. I'll redo it. So it would take 37.9 minutes to kill 177 of them. That means you use 786 cannonballs in that time at a cost of 149,340gp. You have 22.1 minutes to make back that money. That measn you have to make 405,972 per hour. At an earning rate of 400k per hour that is worth it. You must remember you save money due to less supplies which will bring it under 400k. Forgotten: Adjusting Qeltar's melee rates. 400k per hour is break even, where we neither gain nor lose time by using cannon.[/hide] Yes that was at 405k. I then adjusted it to include money saved on supplies and Range experience getting this: [hide=Dagannoths]Level 90 Dagannoths in Waterbirth Dungeon was proven to be 405,972. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it 382,379. Add on the experience value brings is down to 306,923. Also worth using a cannon on.See abive[/hide] That is some great proof "See abive". You did nothing to prove that these were wrong. With the "see abive" you would have been referring to Skeletal Wyverns, I'll show these ones now. [hide=Skeletal Wyverns]41 Wyverns without a cannon. 53 Wyverns with a cannon. You use up 665 cannonballs per hour at a cost of 126,350. 41 Wyverns would take 46.4 minutes with a cannon. In that time you will only use up 514 cannonballs at a cost of 97,660. You now have 13.6 minutes to make back that money. You need to make about 431,331 per hour for a cannon to be worth it. I'd calculate in how much worth of Ranger experience you would get, but the Wyverns have higher defence. If you still got it at the same rate as previous examples that is 38,550 worth of Range experience, which brings the rate under 400k per hour. At 514 cannonballs to kill 12 200 hp monsters, for a total of 2,400 damage and 4,800 XP, with range XP being valued at 3gp each, that's 15k - enough that cannon doesn't even break EVEN in terms of XP. Good example, though.[/hide] Over 400k yes. I later added in the money saved on supplies: [hide=Skeletal Wyverns]Furthur proof showing how incompetent you are being. Where did 12,200 come from. 53*200 = 10,600. Where did you even get 2,400 damage from? I can't think of any way that you could have got that number. The task with a cannon increases speed by 30% than without. Due to the increased kill rate, you save on supplies. You save 8,887 on Super Restores, 1,824 on Sara Brews, 408 on Super Attacks, 1,940 on Super Strengths, and 5,924 on Pineapple Pizza. That is an overall saving of 19k simply because you kill faster. The only task it makes a difference on would be Bloodvields, where 9k really won't change anything significantly. 2,400 damage is from the extra hits by cannon.[/hide] I admit I didn't understand when you mentioned 12 200. I had thought you meant 12,200 as just the one number. You actually meant 12 Skeletal Wyverns at 200 Hitpoints each. But as is shown, 19k was saved on supplies. Your "proof" of me being wrong was to say only Bloodvelds are worth it. So again, no prrof so far. I next included the Range experience: [hide=Skeletal Wyverns]Skeletal Wyverns was proven to be 431,331. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it about 412k. Say you still average 12 damage a cannonball and value experience at 4gp each. That brings it down to 363k that needs to be made per hour. So yes that one is worth it also. Nope, as your numbers still don't include anything, such as us valueing range XP at 3k from Avansies, nor qeltar's boosted rates from melee, or the actual benefit from the supply reduction.[/hide] You didn't make any sense here to be honest. You say I didn't even include the benefit of of supply reduction, well geez... maybe less supplies = less money spent. I proved it was about 19k saved and that was added in. I lated used your number to calculate the experience you got for Ranged instead: [hide=Skeletal Wyverns]Even if the cannon only did get an extra 2,400 damage resulting in 19.2k worth of Range experience, it still makes Wyverns worth it. It was at 412k being needed with the money saved on supplies 392k or so now needs to be made per hour, making a cannon worth it. 392k means a savings of 1.2 minutes total, boosting our average slayer XP by.. around 100 XP per hour? Is that really worth the extra risk and hassle of a cannon? Does it have any meaningful effect on our calculations? And that doesn't count that you will be getting fewer melee kills, to the tune of 5% per hour, making for slightly less XP overall per kill, and mitigating the minuscule advantage of using a cannon.[/hide] It is still more efficient than without, even though the bonus may be little. Extra risk? you have got to be kidding, if the cannon is set up there is no risk of losing it. You then say you get 5% less melee experience per hour, which would therefore negate you saying it was only 12*200 to Range experience, as you would get slightly more Range experience. Again, you simply state that with no proof. If its true it doesn't matter. You did nothing to prove the calculations were wrong. There was also Kalphites: [hide=Kalphites]162 kills/hour melee only. 320 kills/hour melee with a cannon. You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each). You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes. It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes. You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money. 147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour. Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task. Please explain how this is wrong... I see no mistakes. The cannon speeds up the rate of Slayer experience here by almost exactly 100%, that is twice as fast. Also you metaphor with the fruit is nonsensical. Comparing apples to half apples and half oranges.... err, making a fruit salad? Not the same amount of apples if there is even 1 orange. Say you have 10 apples. Compare that to 10 apples and 3 oranges... same amount of apples I see, except now you have more fruit in total. I do. You are spending 290,700k to save 29.7 minutes.. where did your 147,166 come from? That makes for a total of roughly 600k as the break even point. Oh, and my metaphor apparently was misunderstood, it was an attempt to help you understand - I guess it didn't. Not sure how I can explain it to you now, that's about as simple of terms as I could break it down to...[/hide] This was the first part. Your reply alone means you have no idea. You thought it was spening 290.7k to save 29.7 minutes. 290.7k was for the cannonballs used per hour. I explained all this in my next section: [hide=Kalphites]How didn't you understand this either? "Where did the 147,166 come from?" Umm idk.... might have been that is how you spent on the cannonballs. But no... you're right... that is too obvious and simple. I'll show you again how I got that number: 1,530 cannonballs used per hour which costs 290,700gp per hour. Using a cannon, you complete the Kalphites at almost twice the speed. In other words you saved 29.625 minutes by using up 774 cannonballs which cost 147,167gp (30.375/60 * 290,700). You now have 29.625 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make the eqivalent of 298,059gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. If you value Range experience at 3gp each, you also gained 58,050 worth of Range experience also. Making a cannon even more worth it for someone who makes 400k per hour. 'scuse me? First the 1.5k cannonballs was for the half hour, given the 2.7k you claim are used per hour, now they have suddenly jumped to per hour, making 775 cannonballs? Now, for your 30 minute specters test, we have 3 numbers: 1.5k, the first number you used for # of c balls. 1.1k, the new number you used for # of c balls. And last and least, 775 cannonballs you used for calculating the cost of cannon. What? For what its worth, your 775 cannonballs for 175 kills (slightly reduced melee kills due to cannon) @ 90 hp each = 20.3 damage per cannonball? Something's not right; I think we need a larger sample then 30 minuts of killing; both you and I agree that the damage is 12.1-12.5 per cannonball, far less then that. That's just highlighting the inaccuracy of a 30 minute test.[/hide] You say I claimed to use 2.7k per hour. The closest number to that was 2,364 and that was for Aberrant Spectres. It was always 1.5k per hour for Kalphites, and hence 774 for the time to kill 162. After that you switch to Spectres and say I used 1.5k for them... well nope, that 1.5k was for Kalphites. You also say we need a larger sample than 30 minutes of killing.... which was among the most stupid things you have said. It wasn't based on 30 minutes of killing. Kalphites are very susceptible to the cannon from what I have seen also. This ended up being followed by this: [hide=Kalphites]You really do not read do you? 1.5k.... 2.7k... I never mentioned either of those numbers. I claim? Did I not specifically express I got these rates from Qeltar's Database? Did I not prove I did also by posting a picture straight from it? 1.1k was the new number I used? It was the only number I used. Please actually read before you post. 775? Where did that one come from then? If I had calculated the cost with that number, it would have been 147,250gp for the cannonballs. Amazingly I never mentioned that number either. Excuse me, 774 cannonballs. My bad. See above for the 1.5k. I think I misunderstood the 2.3k; I now see what you mean by your numbers.[/hide] Here you admit to being wrong, and you never tried to show anything wrong with this calculations again. So no proof was provided to them being wrong yet again and my calculations still stand. Finally there is Bloodvelds. I'm not even going to bother showing these ones. You made the mistake of comparing it to Dharoks. Even still, you got them to be efficient. So this shows that Bloodvelds are efficient even when comparing to the wrong one, it is just a matter of how much more efficient it is. Then you are indeed being purposely ignorant. That was only one of them, see for yourself I fail to see how from his post you surmised that he didn't even read the original post. All that was said was didn't want to get into the "minutiae of the argument/discussion". So again you lied to try and prove your point. Next is: While he never said mine were more correct, his numbers are closer to what I have been saying. Hence why I said in my post that there were people who "directly/indirectly" agreed with me. Other people that posted didn't say what they were getting, but they did also disagree with what you were saying.

I've used alot of his numbers. Please be specific. It isn't a matter of Dharoks being more efficient. The calculations are there to show if a cannon is worth using. By comparing Dharoks (which doesn't matter if it is 2% faster or 100% faster) to a Whip with a cannon, you've changed the results and they cannot be compared. The difference has to be whether or not a cannon was used. I don't see why you find that so difficult to understand. I already know that he used no state enhancing prayer. Over the course of all the posts that I have made I have never said otherwise. The reason he used prayer with Dharoks was to keep his Hitpoints lower safely. The Bloodvelds would hit too often otherwise. Qeltar doesn't have rates for Slayer however. 14.9k Isn't what I would call accurate as it was based on killing them without the bonuses from a Slayer Helm, without the bonus of a stat enhancing prayer, and more often than not using low efficiency methods. There are too many factors that you are unable to change the result for to get an accurate average for what you would get on Slayer. You are guessing at how much the Slayer helm increases experience by, you guess how much prayer increases experience by. Combine that with him using less efficient methods and not using a cannon (which regardless of what you think, at 400k per hour it is worth using). You ignored what I said and you say that it is only efficient for Bloodvelds. You got that by comparing it inaccurately and got 350k per hour being required. Is needing less than 300k for the other tasks mean they are sufddenly inefficient? I think not. You didn't understand what I was talking about with the higher money making method. Using an accurate average (which is over 20k Slayer experience per hour), also using a more accurate profit of up to 150k, using more efficient killing methods will boost the overall experience rate so high, that they will only get slightly less experience per hour. However comparing the profit into that makes Monkies far from being more efficient. That is why I said that there is currently no way to average a high enough money maker for Zombie Monkies to be worth it. Would you please stop that, seriously? Using the exact same way to work out if a cannon is more efficient was applied to more than Bloodvelds, and all were proven to be efficient. With Bloodvelds only requiring 80k per hour needing to be made, it is fair to say that a cannon provides more than a "truly tiny, at 5%" increase. Since you seem unwillinging to accept that, I'll ask you to do it. Using the same method, using the numbers Qeltar got, you show me how they were not efficient. Only then can you truly say what you have been repeating and to have others agree (that also requires you do not make up numbers again). You were the one who said all extra kills came specifically from the cannon. Now you are saying otherwise. Unless it is single combat, which is only on one task (Fire Giants), you will still always be hitting with your Whip alongside the cannon. You will still hit just as often and just as high. There may be a slight decrease in overall melee experience, but nothing too significant. I think you are forgetting something. Ignore hitting 100% of 50% of the time, as we don't know the average on each monster. It is impossible to hit 100% of the time anyway. Think about this from a different perspective. Say nothing changes, base stats and the same equipment. On average you hit 70% of the time. Now assume all that changes is the use the +10% Strength prayer. Does that mean it only comes into effect when you hit? Yes and no. While the bonus to Strength has no affect when you don't hit, it always has an affect when you do hit. Everytime you hit, it is in effect every hit. So it is technically in effect 100% of the time, regardless of how often you hit. With attack, we don't know how much effect it has. As we all know Attack level isn't equal to accuracy. You can't say how much effect it will have simply whether you hit or miss. Either way, you can't predict how much effect the bonuses of Slayer Helm will have overall, or the prayer. You need to actually test it, you can't derive it mathematically unless you know specifically the formula that is used when calculating how often you hit or your average hit. I am sure some people have gone from 1-99 Slayer since the release of Summoning. It has been out for almost a year after all, it would be foolish to think no-one has done so. You could try testing it yourself to see the actual number. We actually have not. Not in the real world testing and especically not mathematically. Refer a bit above for my reasoning why. You can't mathematically predict what the change will be because you don't know how much of an effect it has. They are very clsoe together in the Chaos Tunnels, so what are suggesting I notice? Look at my video again. It was never more then a few steps from one to another. Does it matter if it didn't die? If it didn't, it still tries to attack you does it not? That means it will still close and the hitting with a Whip cuases no slow down. I can surmise that you have clearly not been using the Chaos tunnels if you think the drops are up to 15 squares away. You really need to see that video again and you'll see that there is barely any time lost at all. Actually it makes Slayer more efficient. Using the Range/cannon for Black Demons is 75% faster Slayer experience. Getting up to 250 kills per hour. So a 'cannon at black demons comparison' would be very helpful to again show your error. However, as I have stated, Qeltar hasn't done so so I can't use his rates. I can't test myself as you'll either say I am lieing, I am inaccurate, it is impossible for others to do that or whatever other reason you may use. A cannon at Hellhounds does result in faster experience than no cannon. It is in effect a multi combat zone as you are not being attacked. As for chins on Nechryaels, are you not better of using chinchompas on them than training range with them elsewhere? It may not be quite as fast as other methods, but you will receive charms and drops to help cover the cost. With an earning rate of 400k per hour, how is Aberrant Spectres only requiring a rate of 258k inefficient? An earning rate of 307k for Dagannoths is less than 400k. Kalphites at 280k I think it was is less than 400k. How about the people who just posted who said that? Do they just not exist because they only once again prove you were wrong? 3 people posted on this page saying directly or indirectly that my rates are closer to what they average than what you suggest.

Well he used 6 (4) in the hour without a cannon, so it will have been the same amount as with a cannon. So I have to walk you through every single calculation that i've done? I don't see how you can say I haven't shown anything either. I've shown you purposely made the rate for Monkies 2.75x lower than what it should have been. I've shown that a cannon is worth using. I've shown that without using a cannon, Slayer is more efficient than Monkies. You keep saying it is my "original numbers". To what numbers are you referring? It may be tht it isn't correct. However you can't simply say that because one number is alot lower it must be wrong. It may simply be that he really did only get that many kills. You'll have to do a test yourself. You really need to be clearer in what you are saying, "theese ones were dropping much more rapidly". To which ones are you referring. If it was Bloodvelds, he used pots with both Dharoks and Whip. He also didn't use prayer with the Whip, I stated that earlier, and that could be a reason why it slowed down. Even still, you don't get hit that much and eating doesn't slow you down by alot. "Pick on or another method" again, to what one are you referring? A higher money maker doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. If you recall I have stated many times that the average profit is higher than 50k, and up to 150k. I was using your rate of 14.9k, even though you yourself averages 15.7k on the slowest task the average Slayer will do. Also note, that using the +10% prayer and cannon, and better methods for each task, it is easily possible to average over 20k per hour. All that combined means that you will need an even higher method of making money than what is presently available. It is still better is it not? Keep in mind this is just the one task. If you average it out for every task, it will be even furthur under 400k. With Aberrant Spectres it is 258k being needed, 392k for Skeletal Wyverns, 307k for level 90 Dagannoths and 80k for Bloodvelds. That is an average of 259k being needed. According to what you said earlier, you would get the same amount of melee kills per hour and all the extra were done by cannon. So it does nothing but give bonus experience. Oddly enough I know it takes time to set up and reload cannon. I was the one who brought that up afterall. Want to know why that doesn't have to be added in? It is already in. Unless you are suggesting that Qeltar Stopped timing every time he went to reload his cannon, the extra time taken to do that is already included. I already know that about the damage, but what effect does that have on the ratio? We don't know how much Range and melee experience you will get on each task. So we can't predict how much overall experience you are getting. Now it is this type of thing that really is starting to annoy me. I've never once stated that the bonus from a Slayer helm or any prayer will have an effect on the cannon. So what are you doing here. You state something, which I have already said since I first brought this up, and infering that I didn't already know. Then you are going to say that I finally understand? That is complete and utter nonsense. All my calculations showed was that Slayer was more efficient which would have made you wrong. Since it made you wrong, that must mean my calculations were wrong then? I have said many reasons why yours were wrong but you choose to neglect seeing them. An example of this is when I stated that just because you can X amount of Range experience using Chinchompas, how does that make a cannon less efficient for Slayer? The answer is it doesn't ahve any effect, a point which you seemed unable to comprehend. Ok... that makes no sense. Can't use the numbers of the Whip because we are using Dharoks prayer pots? Dharoks wasn't 60% faster either, it was 51%. 8% bonus from Slayer helm? Could have sworn it was 15% to Attack and 15% to Strength. That would only of really had an effect when Summoning was released. It has been out for months now so that isn't an issue anymore. The only time it will be an issue is if someone who hasn't played in however long logs in after all this time with 90 Slayer and decides to get Summoning up via Slayer. Saying that those people are even the minority would be an overstatement. You could also say that experience past 99 is still worth it to those people. Just because there is no more level increases or extra bonuses, doesn't make it useless. I looked at the site, it never even mentioned anything about Suqahs. Nor did it even mention that on some tasks the monster give more Slayer experience than their Hitpoints. But you go ahead and belive that if you want. I have mentioned several problems with your methods and calculations for both Qeltar and you. Qeltar wasn't on Slayer was one method I brought up that is very important, that is a problem. Qeltar doesn't use stat enhancing prayers, also a problem. I have poited out several mistakes in your calculations which you seem unable to comprehend as being wrong. For example where you compared a cannon+Whip to Dharoks at Bloodvelds. I mentioned this earlier in this post. I didn't check to see at what level you get to 98 so I am unsure if it gets you to 98. It would get you to approximately 12.2mil Summoning experience from 1-99 Slayer from 1 Summoning. So that is indeed level 98. Yes I am confident about that also. Please refrain from trying to insult me again also. I stated this pages ago. You only look more foolish the more you press this matter. I never said that. I said that if you want a BOB can be taken if you want more room for drops. I never said that I use one. The only familiars I use are Unicorns and Geyser Titan's, neither of which are BOBs. That means I don't use BOBs. Refer to the Dust Devil vid I posted. See how little time I lost from picking up drops? See how you purposely exaggerated the distance between them? If you had read what I said, you'll also see that I never once inferred that I get to another one, and then inch my way back to the drop. I said "While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies." Read through that logically and what does it tell you? It says that I am already attacking another one before the first one dies. The drop is only 1 square away. WOW!!!!!! That is so hard to move 1 square!!!! So no, I don't "miss quite a few hits" for things you are incapable of doing/understanding. Bronze knifes are a waste of time and will slow down your experience. Amazingly when I do Slayer, I ahev plenty of time to talk to my friends without getting what you have said to be a 50% reduction in speed. It isn't always a bad idea. Ranging on some tasks is faster or only just slow than meleeing. Range+cannon on Black Demons is the fastest way to complete a Black Demon task. Range+cannon is the fastest way to do Hellhounds. Range+Cannon is only slightly slower than melee+cannon in the waterfall area. It is even possible to use chinchompas on Nechryaels. At 400k an hour, a cannon is worth using on every single task I showed. You seem unable to accept that. 302k needing to be made for Dagannoths, sounds worth it to me. Bloodvelds 80, definately worth it. Skeletal Wyverns 392k, still worth it. 258k on Aberrant Spectres, sounds worth it to me. 280k I think it was for Kalphites (and that was without adding in Range experience and money saved on supplies), so yep, those are worth using a cannon on also. So yes a cannon is worth using and it is far from a deadlock as you would call it P.S. For the impossibly higher rates that I apparently get, it seems that is is possible for others to achieve them after all. You weren't wrong again were you? That would be unfortunate.

Did you want me to walk you through every step just so you are capable of understanding, or should I assume you have some kind of intelligence at least? I'll go through every step, you let me know when it becomes too difficult for you ok? 182 kills per hour without a cannon. 390 kills per hour with a cannon. (390-182)/390 = 0.53333 (If I just did 182/390 that shows the percent of how long the task will take with a cannon. Done this way is the time saved, understand?) According to Qeltar, you would normally use: 3 Zamorak Brews (2), which is 1.5 (4) 3 Super Strength (2), which is 1.5 (4) 6 Prayer Potion (4), his numbers said 3 (2), which is wrong. Prayer drains at the same rate. Not too hard so far right? 0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Zamorak Brews 0.533*1.5 = 0.8 Super Strengths 0.533*6 = 3.2 Prayer Potions 0.8*801 = 640.8 0.8*4,072 = 3,257.6 3.2*7,770 = 24,864 640.8 + 3,257.6 + 24,864 = 28,762.4 saved on supplies. Was that so difficult to understand? Was that so incredibly impossible as you stated? What? They don't include anything? I valued Range experience at 4gp each, I stated that did I not? I then used your average of 12 damage per cannonball. "Qeltar's boost rates from melee" are what you did. I'll be honest, from the amount of mistakes you have done, and purposely changing the results to suit you, I don't trust that what you have done is correct. "Zombie Monkies are only a 40k loss per hour" Woops sorry I meant for it to be 2.75x higher than that, what a silly error. I'd rather not have to walk you through the above calculations as I showed above for this one and next ones. I am hoping you are capable of testing them yourself. It really isn't that difficult. You did what now? I recall you swapping it to Dharoks for no logical reason, I don't recall any proof however. I specifically stated that to compare if a cannon is worth using or not, they have to be tested the same way, the only difference being whether a cannon was used or not. So no, I didn't ignore that number, but you clearly ignored what I said. I know that for a fact to, as if you didn't ignore it, you would see it can't be compared to Dharoks. It could be compared to Dharoks if the test with a cannon had also been using Dharoks. Oh I get it now, you mixed up the numbers. That was why it made no sense. You were talking about Kalphites where I said you use 1,530 per hour, but then you said 2.7k per hour. Your numbers were all over the place, how could anyone of been expected to understand what you were trying to show. I'll show you what you said. You say that I said 1.5k was for a half hour. I never said that, I said 1.5k was for the hour, you misinterpretted. I've never mentioned a number close 2.7k. The closest number is 2,364, and that was from Aberrant Spectres. The 774 was what you used to complete the same amount of kalphites as without a cannon taking half the time. Now you say for Aberrant Spectres that I said 1.5k. Umm.... no, that 1.5k was for Kalhpites. I always used the 1.1k as the amount used in same time as without a cannon. So please excuse me for not understanding what you were trying to say because of your inability to understand what I said in the first place. Since when were the pots dropping so much? Task is completed quicker, so of course you don't need to use the same amount, you use less. Look above at the example with Aberrant Spectres. I did neither. I never "agreed" to use Aviansies as the money maker. I used the 400k though as what they make per hour regardless of how it is acquired. That was my point, there is so many ways to make 400k per hour, it is foolish to think everyone or even the average way is Aviansies. I don't see how we need "better" numbers, they are fine as they are. Dharoks is better experience on Bloodvelds, Qeltar's tests show that. Keep in mind he melee'd with a Neitiznot helm So he wasn't actually doing Slayer at the time. Even if the cannon only did get an extra 2,400 damage resulting in 19.2k worth of Range experience, it still makes Wyverns worth it. It was at 412k being needed with the money saved on supplies 392k or so now needs to be made per hour, making a cannon worth it. Simple math then is it? Lets look at this simple math: Aberrant Spectres with a cannon gets you an extra 208 kills per hour. 208/390*100 =53.3% So 53.3% of the possible experience goes to the cannon. In short you get the exact same amount of melee and Hitpoints experience per hour, but you get bonus Range and Slayer experience. 65,520 melee experience. 21,840 Hitpoints experience. 37,440 Range experience. That means the overall result is: 1.86x damage done is to melee. 0.62x damage done is to Hitpoints. 1.07x damage done is to Range. For everyone 1 experience of melee, you get 0.575 experience of Range. The point is, say without a Slayer Helm and prayer you get 10k Slayer experience per hour, and with you get 20k. You are always going to get the same amount of Range experience anyway. So you are saying whether on Slayer on Slayer or not, the bonuses of prayer and Slayer helm have no effect. Ok.... was I not just doing that off a Slayer task? Err... what? Calculated for Kalphites you say, hmm. Then pray tell why you said it was 460k for Bloodvelds? I have already proven it was 169k for Bloodvelds, a far cry from 460k. Even more so once you calculate Range experience in. When did I supposedly switch a number with Kalphies. I never worked out a number to being 460k being needed I believe. Considering I proved Kalphites was 298k without Range being added in to it, where did I get the 460k from Kalhpites from then? Good thing I didn't what? If you are referring to Range experience, you have been the one going on and on about me not having put it in. But apparently, according to what you say, If I do it will skew the results. I already explained why you can't use numbers for Dharoks as a comparison to the cannon at Bloodvelds, a fact which you seem unable or unwilling to grasp. How about you repost what you said, i'd rather not look through 105 pages of text to find one little bit of information. What has training Slayer beyond 99 have to do with altering the average experience per charm? Oh right... For someone who didn't even know that they gave a higher amount of Slayer experience, of course you must be right with how much they give. How silly of me to think otherwise.... They give about 107.5 on average actually, but I rounded it off to 108. It was also 134 kills per hour. An extra 335 Slayer experience per hour with melee only. Using a cannon here however gets you up to 50k Slayer experience per hour though. You'll find I am not the only one who gets those rates. Also note that is only 3 different things you stated (bad at maths I see). You really are a fool aren't you? "But zarfot is a machine or a zombie or whatever, other people aren't so it is impossible" Seriously I think you just can't cope that you are using worse methods or whatever else and that other people can get alot higher experience than you. The only reason for you that "Slayer Sucks" is because you suck at Slaying. Your responses are mostly illogical and are more often than not, made up. And this is coming from you? I am willing to debate over the numbre provided you debate over them rather than trying to make up numbers to try and discredit what I have posted. I have gone through step by step to show how the calculations work, I asked you to see if there were mistakes. You never pointed out the mistakes so I can only assume there weren't any. You seem to be getting less and less intelligent with each post. I've not once switched between those two different rates. I have stuck with 80-99 getting you 96 Summoning. You have been saying it has to be 1-99 or whatever else. So no, I do not have a "nasty habit" of switching between numbers. 13.8mil Slayer to 13mil Summoning experience is equivalent of 80-99 Slayer getting 1-96 Summoning. How is that hard to understand. The time I mentioned 1-99 is when I said that would get you over 96 and get you to the higher 97's or low 98's, or maybe even higher. Please finish what you are saying before posting. That is the second time you have done this during this post. We went through this pages ago. I said I never used a BOB, so therefore there was no switch. I said that if you want, others are able to using one if they want. I said that I presonally do not. You have more than enough room in your inventory even with a BOB, amazingly I mentioned this pages ago also. The delay you say I encounter is non-exsistant. I don't kill a monster, wait for the drop to show, pick it up, and then run to the next. That is a waste of time. While I am killing I move 1-2 steps at a time towards another monster between Whip hits, no time is lost for that. I then attack the monster before the first one even dies. So I am always in combat. So no, there is no time lost fot that.

Funny then how every single test I showed with the cannon I didn't include the Range experience. Add in the Range experience and it becomes more efficient, that is what you have said. Aberrant Spectres was proven to be 393,014 gp per hour needing to be made for a cannon to be more efficient (so obviosuly that one is below 400k also). Take off the money saved no supplies brings it down to 364,251gp per hour. Say you value Range experience at 4gp each (just over 3.67). Then you also gain 105,888 worth of experience (at 4gp per experience and average 24 experience per cannonball which is 12 damage). That brings it down to 258,363 per hour that need to be made. Worth it? I think so. Skeletal Wyverns was proven to be 431,331. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it about 412k. Say you still average 12 damage a cannonball and value experience at 4gp each. That brings it down to 363k that needs to be made per hour. So yes that one is worth it also. Level 90 Dagannoths in Waterbirth Dungeon was proven to be 405,972. Taking off money saved on supplies makes it 382,379. Add on the experience value brings is down to 306,923. Also worth using a cannon on. Bloodvelds was proven to be 168,875 (not your 350k or so, as I mentioned you compared it to the wrong one). Take off money saved on supplies brings it down to 136,945. Add on experience value brings it down to 80,341. Definately worth using I believe. So umm, on what task wasn't the cannon worth it again? You changed my quote and made it say "referring to kalphites". I wasn't referring to Kalphites at all, so it was definately your mistake and not mine. I did talk about them, but that was about 4 posts back or so. Of course you will be meleeing. I have been the one saying all this time you attack alongside the cannon, why would I suddenly change that? Pot rate that Qeltar seems to use is also once every 10 minutes. What 60%? What numbers were supposedly wrong and right? But the money rate isn't in the 600ks it is 400k, so Chinchompas aren't worth it. Changing one 400k per hour method to any other method of obtaining 400k per hour makes how much difference again? All that changes is the experience, but then again some methods of getting money get you no-little experience at all. You read my post, and still think you compared Bloodvelds correctly... maybe there isn't any hope for you after all. You can't compare Dharoks with no cannon to Whip with a cannon, if you are trying to find out if a cannon is worth using. As shown above, you only need to make about 80k or so per hour for a cannon to be worth using at Bloodvelds. After factoring in experience and money saved on supplies, Bloodvelds are 80% more efficient with a cannon than without. Still no idea where the 2,400 comes from. Extra damage from the cannon, what extra damage? 514 cannonballs = approximately 6,168 damage for 12,336 Range experience. Look above, it is worth using. Well that was based on no results what so ever. Do you know what a ratio is? You have assumed that cannon will do half the damage and melee the other half, and you know this how? Oh right, from Qeltars numbers.... which give absolutely no indication of the ratio. He never recorded the melee and Range experience gain, without which a ratio cannot be determined. You would be meleeing also while using a cannon, would you not? Will that not mean it will have the exact same affect on your melee experience? Of course not... because that is like too obvious! It mustn't be right if it is that easy! Pray tell, where did this number come from this time? I proved it was 169k, furthur calculated to be 80k. You compared it to Dharoks (which was wrong), and got it to be 354k. So umm, where did this number come from now? When did I calculate Range experience in with the results 2 posts of mine back? I hadn't put them in. So no, Range experience hadn't even been put in yet. Money saved depends on what you wold have used in the first place. For the results I showed earlier in this post, it was about 20-25k for a few. He wasn't using a Black Mask or +10% strength in either the test with a cannon or without, so that is fine. Dharoks numbers are higher because you kill them faster with Dharoks, kind of obvious I thought, but then, that is when thinking logically. Dharoks is more accurate and hits alot higher than the Whip in this case, but yes it is slowet to attack with. Clearly the accuracy and damage increase more than makes up for that though. I checked myself, it is actually page 80. I read what you said about it, you said that from Qeltar's numbers you got the ratio to be 0.89:1. Many Slayer monsters give more Slayer experience or something even less than their Hitpoints. So you apparently already have the averages... but with the wrong numbers, hence making the averages not so accurate? Still ignoring that I see. I have mentioned several times that while not getting his rates I do get close. In the case of Aberrant Spectres I even got more experience than what his guide said. So yes, those rates are easily obtainable. Last I checked, Zombies aren't real, so they still have a flaw. Actually it is 150k. He said it took him 530 hours. What I find hilarious is that you with only 76 Slayer (not trying to insult) is trying to specifically say what can be made from drops during Slayer. I'm sure someone who has access top all the drops, and got 80m from Slayer over the course of 13.8mil experience will be a much more accurate average than what you believe is or isn't possible... but you know... i'm just thinking logically again. Look above, every single task is worth using a cannon on at only a 400k earning rate. Do you even know why I mentioned 1-2k? It had nothing to do with swapping tasks or going to Spiritual Mages. That was where I was referring to piety at Skeletal Wyverns. You guess 4-5 minutes range. How many Skeletal Wyverns would you think you could kill in that time using piety? At least 5? Up to 10? 5-10 kills in 5 minutes is 1-2k. Since you lose that much time banking, you lose out on that much experience. So that is what I was talking about with Wyverns. 99 Slayer isn't high? 1 Summoning isn't low? What game have you been playing? If you stopped at 99 Slayer, having started at 80, you would get 96 Summoning from level. Is that so difficult to understand? Which calculated numbers are supposedly incorrect? They can't all be wrong, since I calculated the 110k loss at Monkies and you agreed that is correct. My numbers for the cannon were correct. So please actually explain where. I don't think I said 26 difference in strength bonus. I said around 20 or so. See for yourself: A difference of 20 strength bonus. The extra +5% for Salve and +13% from piety is an extra 16 levels. If as you say they are about a 50:50 split in determining how high you hit, I have a better chance of hitting higher in what I use. I can pick up crimsons + drops and lose no time. I can attack the enxt monster without losing time. Potting as you hit results in no time lost. Eating as you hit results in little time lost, but I used a Unicorn to heal, so no time lost. I might rarely miss a Whip hit, but nothing to what you would call "significant".

It is true actually. The cannon speeds the tasks up fast enough so that if you make at least 400k per hour it is more efficient to use a cannon. That's not entirely helpful. I'm trying to show that killing the same one with a cannon is more efficient than without. My working out for the Dagannoth's if you would care to look was on the level 90 Dagannoths already, not the ones in the lighthouse. The only difference was killing them at Waterbirth dungeon for multicombat where a cannon can be used. So no, what Inuashakent didn't really help with the Dagannoths : .

The cannon does depend on the level. Why else would I only get 30.8% of the experience at 0 range compared to 89? I personally wasn't completely sure at first. Inuashakent brought this up in his Slayer guide and I described controlled tests that could be performed to see once and for the answer. He tested and he agrees that level does affect the cannon (he still takes Range pots with him on Slayer tasks where he uses a cannon, I personally do not find them worth taking). Say it is as you say and that is experience, will it be the same on all monsters? Obviously not as with 0's counted in the Defence of the monster plays a significant role. The Range experience isn't even that important when calculating if a cannon is worth it. If it gave no experience, it would still be worth using as it would speed up tasks and you can easily make back enough money within the allotted time. You have got to be kidding, do I seriously have to explain that? Look at the image I posted from Qeltar's database, what does it show? 60 minutes to use up 2,364 cannonballs. Since you would only be using cannon for 28 minutes, it is 1,103 used in that 28 minutes. How did you not know that? Hell, when did I even mention the number of 1.5k? *looks through* Yep, nothing even resembling 1.5k. So was there a mistake in my math? Nope. Did I over adjust? Nope. The amount never dropped, you are still using them up at the rate of 2,364 per hour. Even at 23k per hour as you say, you would still get 76,107gp worth of Range experience in that time (with it valued at 3gp each). I'm sorry, I must be going blind. Where were my numbers changing so much? Also note here where I said you save money on supplies. That means also for the Aberrant spectres, you would save 641 on the Zamorak brews (worth 801 each). You save 4,570 on the Super Strengths (worth 3,667 each), you save 24,758 on prayer potions (7,737 each). Also somehow he used 6 (4) prayer pots without a cannon and 1.5 (4) with a cannon. That doesn't make sense due to prayer would drain at the same rate. You save about 30k all up in supplies due to the task going quicker. A cannon is even more efficient now. I've no need to "drop the numbers" as you are accusing me. You've only made yourself look like a fool by saying that. The amount went from 2,364 to 1,103 because you would only be there 28 minutes compared to 60... wow, that is so difficult to understand! Regardless of earning levels, the time taken and money spent wouldn't have changed, you made a mistake. Wait let me get this straight, you are now saying because I used Qeltar's numbers (from a 60 minutes test, not a 30 minutes. I interpolated the result), that it is inaccurate? The number wouldn't be out by 10-15% also, and if it did. It would just as likely to be 10-15% less experience, making even higher. What real ones? Honestly, a couple posts ago you accuse me of not thinking before I post, and here you are, doing just that! The amount of experience received from the cannon doesn't matter specifically. The cannon is already more efficient before the exprience is even calculated in. So regardless of how much experience you get, it will only become more efficient. Seriously, take your advice and think before you reply. You really do not read do you? 1.5k.... 2.7k... I never mentioned either of those numbers. I claim? Did I not specifically express I got these rates from Qeltar's Database? Did I not prove I did also by posting a picture straight from it? 1.1k was the new number I used? It was the only number I used. Please actually read before you post. 775? Where did that one come from then? If I had calculated the cost with that number, it would have been 147,250gp for the cannonballs. Amazingly I never mentioned that number either. So again, I never mentioned 775 or 175 kills. It was 182 kills. You say I don't understand your calculations, with how you're interpretting mine I doubt you even understand yours at this rate. First of all, it was 182 kills per hour with a cannon. You are not only killing with a cannon, you are also meleeing them. So of course it won't be 182 kills with a cannon. "Something's not right" well geez, that would be you. I find it funny that you are actually trying to say I said that. Of all the numbers you have replied with I think only one was one I actually used, and that was 1.1k cannonballs. So you managed to highlight what inaccuracy, if anything you highlighted your incompetency. Couldn't have anything to do with it being a lousy metaphor though could it? However, now that you actually explain it it does make some sense. Although honestly, with how you said it, did you really think that made it simpler, or more room for incorrect interpretation? Had you actually mentione in the first place what the 'beginning concept' was it would have helped. You say it is impossible to compare chinchompas to Aviansies, why? It comes down to which is more efficient to train on. To get 40k Range experience per hour with 40k profit or 240k Range experience hour at a loss of 480k. As I mentioned in my previous post, Aviansies doesn't have to be your money maker. I personally simply view it as you have to make X amount of money per hour for it to be more efficient, regardless of how you obtain said money. So yes, they can be compared, and no at an earning rate of 400k per hour chinchompas are not worth using. A terrible job? The only thing you responded with were literally made up numbers. You either purposely or accidentally (i'm leaning towards purposely due to how your reply was set out) changed the numbers to try and make mine look wrong. You are only furthur showing that they are right and you can't cope with that for whatever reason. I'll not even go to your issues of inaccuracy, as I doubt you should even be trying to accuse someone of inaccuracy at the moment. It only made you look like a fool. Furthur proof showing how incompetent you are being. Where did 12,200 come from. 53*200 = 10,600. Where did you even get 2,400 damage from? I can't think of any way that you could have got that number. The task with a cannon increases speed by 30% than without. Due to the increased kill rate, you save on supplies. You save 8,887 on Super Restores, 1,824 on Sara Brews, 408 on Super Attacks, 1,940 on Super Strengths, and 5,924 on Pineapple Pizza. That is an overall saving of 19k simply because you kill faster. That is because I made a mistake, i'm not sure how I got 33.2 either :? . 177/280 = 0.632 or 63.2%, that means it is indeed 38 minutes. I'll redo it. So it would take 37.9 minutes to kill 177 of them. That means you use 786 cannonballs in that time at a cost of 149,340gp. You have 22.1 minutes to make back that money. That measn you have to make 405,972 per hour. At an earning rate of 400k per hour that is worth it. You must remember you save money due to less supplies which will bring it under 400k. Why would I be getting 2.67x the melee experience? It doesn't matter how much melee experience you are getting. The cannon is more efficient than without if you make 400k per hour. I have used 190 as the cost of each cannonball as that is what it was when I first started this. An extra 2gp each is so insignificant. At least you do finalyl see that a cannon is worth using. You also can't say it is 11.6 damage per cannonball. You do not know the ratio of whcih you get Range to Melee experience. You guessed. For all we know it could be average of 17.98 per cannonball, but again, we don't know. How are his melee rates now "suspect". You have been saying all this time that your rates and bang on with Qeltar and that he is always right and whatever else. However, now that his numbers show you're wrong... well of course... that must mean his were wrong all along! However this is funny, I never brought up the Slayer Helm. For a start, he hasn't done that as a test so I can't use his numbes. Second, it would be used on both tests would it not? Would it not affect them at a similar/exact same rate? Same is said for prayer. I don't need to factor them in. They would indeed both increase experience per hour, however this simply shows a cannon is worth using. Why use his Dharoks numbers, you can't compare Dharoks to the cannon due to it being different. Although I will concur he relies on food instead of prayer when he melee'd with a cannon. That is still a closer comparison as it was the same attack bonus. However, from seeing those calculations, you are finally understand how to calculate if a cannon is worth. Congratz! However, it can't be compared to Dharoks, and the +10% Strength and Slayer Helm bonuses don't matter. It affects them by the same amount each. Since Bloodvelds are only at a rate of 169k being needed, that more than makes it worth it for that task. Either way, if that is done on every Slayer task it will add up. Zarfot mentioned that before that a simple matter of 3 ticks of the runescape clock on each monster adds up significantly (3 ticks = 1.818 seconds). Actually every single one of those shows cannon was worth it. Bloodvelds only requires 169k to be made per hour also. You ignore so many factors. Those were without Range experience being calculated in (that makes it more efficient), faster kill rate is more money saved on supplies. It adds up, and simply put, a cannon is always worth using. While I admit you are now learning how to show if a cannon is worth it, you need to understand what it can be compared to. The only difference in the above tests was whwther he used a cannon or not. You can't change it to being Whip+cannon being compared to Dharoks, that is wrong. That is where it shows you are doing it wrong. We aren't worried about it being inefficient for Range experience. We are working out if it is efficient for training Slayer... which it is. All tasks I mentioned are worth using a cannon on. "due to your forgetting to factor increased kill speed from black mask\superhuman strength in." If you wore that when not using a cannon, and when using a cannon, what is the difference to how I worked it out? Overall you are going to get more experience, but a cannon is still going to be just as much worth it. At Bloodvelds it increased the speed of kills by 192%. Without a cannon it is 33.6 seconds per kill, with a cannon it is 11.5 seconds per kill. Also three times faster. Please show where I tried to "discredit any sort of calculations". my calculations are not incorrect (except for the one at Dagannoths where I made a slight error, it has now been resolved though). If anything, I don't need to discredit you. Your replies to the Aberrant Spectre section already do that. It came from his thread when he was going for 2,376 total levels. It was even reposted on his Slayer guide at around page 79 I think when someone asked about it. Look for it there. Also note the charms that "you and everyone else" is getting can't be that far off. You said from Qeltar's numbers it was 0.89, Zarfot for 0.94, not that far off it seems. It is true about Babies, and yes most Players do block Iron Dragons. Please explain how 150*99 = 13725. You see, if you do 150*100, all you do is add two 0's to end making it 15k exactly. So if you take off just a merem 150, it becomes 14,850. I also explained where I got the numbers from Suqahs from, which you purposely neglected to see. They have 105 Hitpoints, but they give about 108 Slayer experience each on average. I mentioned (more than twice), that you don't have to gain money via Aviansies. It comes down to if you can make that much money per hour, it is more efficient. Keep in mind I have stated many times that the real rate is actually higher that needs to be made up. Back to insulting someone simply because they get better rates than you? I don't see how talking to friends slows you down by about 50%. Is it hard to type while your avatar is killing a monster? If the monster dies you click to attack another and continue typing. It isn't that hard. Making 80m from 13.8mil Slayer experience while using a cannon and piety sums it all up to be honest. You seem adamant you are right simply because the rate was only 466k. Do you not recall anything i've said at all? You yourself got 15.7k Slayer experience per hour from the slowest task the average Slayer will do. It only gets higher from there, moreso with a cannon. Making up more numbers and saying I said them again are we? When did I mention I could receive Spiritual mages as a task and then get there in under 2 minutes? Please quote where I said that. Oh look you did quote that post *looks through* nope didn't mention anything about banking for a new task, thats odd isn't it? You were the one that said (a couple post back) about the Skeletal Wyverns needing to bank in under 1-2 minutes, or something along those lines. Zarfot started at 99 Slayer and 1 Summoning, that is about as far apart as it gets. He got 0.94 Summoning experience to 1 Slayer. You said that it should have been 0.7 not 0.9 for for the Summoning. You then followed up by saying that you worked it out to being 0.89. Profits incorrect in the first place? That was at 50k profit from Slayer and and 110k loss per hour at Monkies. You yourself said it was 50k profit, that is why I used it (even though I know and believe it to be higher). I worked out the loss of Monkies being 110k per hour, you then agreed with that. So please explain why you are now saying the profits are wrong? Uhh... no. You neglect to read what I posted again. In both methods I have the same max hit. The 13% boost to Strength allows me to hit equal to that of when on Slayer due to inferior equipment. So yes, it comes down to the 2.5% accuracy on Dust Devils. All I can say is idiotic at the least. Did I not mention that I have the same max hit *looks through* So the extra 13% Strength bonus just evens out the loss in equipment. Guess I did. Extra combat time is very minimal. And since I wasn't wrong, that makes it a success. What was your point?

All I am saying that over the course of 1k cannonballs I got just over 25k experience, or simply 25k to round it off. So from that, it shows even when hitting 0's (because it wasn't 1k of actual hits but 1k cannonballs), it averaged at the mid. So how does including 0's, have ko hits throughout the test mean it is wrong? Would that not overall make it more accurate? Something important you are also forgetting, that no amount of maths you can do will show. Level seems to have an effect on the cannon. On the same monster with 0 compared to 89 Range I was averaging 30.8% of the experience. A higher level will make the cannon more accurate, therby even reducing the 0's and increasing overall average experience (although my test with range potion didn't reflect that to well). The number Zarfot uses is 2.5 minutes to use 1k cannonballs. You have doubled that. Also, the time is important. How else can you calculate if the cannon is worth it? The cannon gets you faster experience at the cost of 2.5 minutes per 1k cannonballs and 190k. It doesn't have an affect on the cannons cost, I never said it did, but it does have an affect to show if the cannon is more efficient. My magical figures were from Qeltars Guide, I explained it all step by step. I'll re-do them just for you: [hide=Aberrant Spectres From Qeltar][/hide] I'm using the rates from the one on the left and the one on the right. But before I go into that i'd like you to look at the middle two. Same gear except Helm and Ammy Helm's 15% was getting slightly more kills than the Ammy. Although he doesn't have a Helm of Neitiznot in that outfit, which will speed it up slightly. So it just shows that they are about equal. As you can see, without a cannon he gets 182 Kills per hour. With a cannon he gets 390 kills per hour. (Don't say but he is on Slayer, he isn't, why else would he use the Salve?) Using a cannon takes up 2364 cannonballs per hour. With a cannon, it takes 28 minutes to kill the same amount as without. That means in that 28 minutes he used up about 1103.2 cannonballs. That costs about 209,608. You now have 32 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make 393,014 per hour. That means I made a mistake the first time, I know what the mistake was also. I added an extra 2 minutes to the usage of a cannon. I shouldn't have, because that time was already in with the time taken. So that means at 400k per hour, a cannon is owrth using on this task. I've no doubt you'll mention range experience, and that comes down to how you value it. At about 5gp per experience, that means you got 137,875 worth of experience. Even at 3gp each it means you got 82,725. That makes a cannon even more worth it and definately should be used. So now, please explain how that doesn't make sense? You spent X amount of money to save Y amount of time. If in Y time you can make back that X amount of money, a cannon is worth using. Also another thing I didn't add into the cost. Is that because the task went faster, you used less spplies (i.e. Zamorak Brews, Super Strength and Prayer Potions). There is no need for you to re-do unless you plan on doing them properly. Look above, I went through again with how I got my "magical numbers". However, the numbers I was doing here was to prove how you were again wrong. You yourself had said that Aviansies at 40k per hour and chinchompas are 240k. 40/240 *60 = 10 minutes. You somehow got 8 minutes using that exact same calculation. Doy ou understand that now. So by spending the 80k worth of chinchompas, you saved yourself 50 minutes of time. However, because you didn't use the other method, you are missing out on 400k also. You have 50 minutes to make back that lost money. That is the equivalent of 576k per hour that needs to be made. How is that hard to understand? It is very clear. Spend X amount to save Y time. In doing so you lose out on Z more money. You now have Y time to make back the Y+Z. Simple no? How didn't you understand this either? "Where did the 147,166 come from?" Umm idk.... might have been that is how you spent on the cannonballs. But no... you're right... that is too obvious and simple. I'll show you again how I got that number: 1,530 cannonballs used per hour which costs 290,700gp per hour. Using a cannon, you complete the Kalphites at almost twice the speed. In other words you saved 29.625 minutes by using up 774 cannonballs which cost 147,167gp (30.375/60 * 290,700). You now have 29.625 minutes to make back that money. That means you need to make the eqivalent of 298,059gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. If you value Range experience at 3gp each, you also gained 58,050 worth of Range experience also. Making a cannon even more worth it for someone who makes 400k per hour. I know where you got the 600k from, and that is wrong. If you can't understand that, how can we trust any calculation you do. you spend 290,700 on 1530 cannonballs per hour. However, you were only there for roughly 30 mins. So you spent half that amount. Which also means you have the same amount of time to make back the money which is 290,700. However, the numbers are slightly off halfway, so it is just slightly higher. Your metaphor about the fruit. I wasn't entirely sure about what you were trying to say, but I took a stab at it. But be honest, comparing aples to half apples and half oranges? I took a guess that the apple was range experience from one method and the orange was from another method. So I guessed that if you ranged and used a cannon you would get so much amount of apples and oranges. More fruit in total anyone? Trust me when I say this though, that metaphor which was supposedly to help me understand made less sense than your calculations. Don't try to patronize me either simply because it was a lousy metaphor. Try actually using calculations, those are understandable. So what... you are comparing getting 99 Slayer using only a cannon compared to chinchompas? Explain how it is the cost factor when you won't be there to gain that much Slayer experience via a cannon. I have already determind two task that at whner you make 400k per hour it is worth it for a cannon to be used. It is simple and clear to understand. It proves that the cannon is worth using. Another example perhaps, this time Skeletal Wyverns: [hide=Skeletal Wyverns from Qeltar][/hide] As you can see the only that changed here was a cannon. His rate was increased by about 30% due to a cannon. 41 Wyverns without a cannon. 53 Wyverns with a cannon. You use up 665 cannonballs per hour at a cost of 126,350. 41 Wyverns would take 46.4 minutes with a cannon. In that time you will only use up 514 cannonballs at a cost of 97,660. You now have 13.6 minutes to make back that money. You need to make about 431,331 per hour for a cannon to be worth it. I'd calculate in how much worth of Ranger experience you would get, but the Wyverns have higher defence. If you still got it at the same rate as previous examples that is 38,550 worth of Range experience, which brings the rate under 400k per hour. Another one perhaps, Dagannoths, but you choose to kill the level 90's in Waterbirth Dungeon: [hide=Level 90 Dagannoths from Qeltar][/hide] We will use the middle two, as the only difference in a cannon. 177 kills per hour without a cannon. 280 kills per hour with a cannon. You use up 1,244 cannonball per hour at a cost of 236,360 per hour. 177 Dagannoths will take only 33.2 minutes with a cannon. In that time you will use up 688 cannonballs at a cost of 130,720. You now have 26.8 minutes to gain back that 130,720gp. You need to make 292,520gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. Still not convinced, ok another one. Bloodvelds (unfortunately you decide not to do mutated ones as those are too scary looking): [hide=Bloodvelds from Qeltar][/hide] When he did without a cannon, he did it in the Slayer tower. It would slow down your experience though. 107 kills per hour without a cannon. 312 kills per hour with a cannon. In that time you used up 1,704 cannonballs at a cost of 323,760. 107 Bloodvelds would take 20.6 minutes with a cannon. In that time you would use up 584 cannonballs which costs 110,960. You now have 39.4 minutes to make back that money. You have to be able to make 168,875gp per hour for a cannon to be worth it. I mean seriously. After all those examples, how do you still think a cannon isn't worth using? That isn't the value of experience -.- . Cost over time is simply the cost. I've tried to explain what I mean by value but you don't seem to comprehend what I was implying. Igorning time? When have I ignored time? I have time in every calculation. Refer to above for those calculations... they all have time in it do they not? That wasn't the value of experience, that was the cost. There is a difference. I didn't even value you range experience above and I proved that even with no experience gain a cannon is worth using. But you do gain experience, which only makes it more worth using. The thing is what you are saying does make sense, but you are still wrong. You can't calculate the cost of Slayer experience by comparing a cannon to a completely different method. I do understand what you are trying to do, but you can't work it out like that. Chinchompas cost less per experience right? The cheaper the Range experience gets the more expensive Slayer gets? I don't think so. Either way regardless of any other training method, you are still going to spend the same amount on cannonballs. You are still going to make tasks go upwards of 30% faster. With 400k as your money making method a cannon is worth using. Why would you need to factor at 0's? In doing so your average hit becomes higher. With the test I did, the 0's were counted in, kos were counted in, and I got just over 25k Range experience, just over 12.5 as the average hit with 0s calculated in. Also, your method and mine both are incorrect to an extent. What about the Defence of said monster? You can't get an average hit of a weapon on one monster, and then expect it to be the same on all monsters. Runescape is a math game?!?!?! Why didn't anyone tell me!?!?!?! I did all those mathematical calculations and I didn't even know it was a math game! Oh my God what have I done!?!?!?! Err right.... moving on from that absolutely stupid comment of yours. Yet, he got the ratio of 0.94 over the course of 13.8mil experience. But no... you're right... 13.8mil is hardly a big enough test range.... Ok lets see here. Greater Demons according to Qeltars numbers was 165 kills per hour, at 87 xp a kill, which is 14,335 experience per hour. Suqahs 134 kills per hour at 108 Slayer experience each is about 14,472. They have 105 hitpoints, but give slightly more Slayer experience each. Dark Beasts are slightly slower at his rates (this is a cannonable task though, and since a cannon is worth using....) Warped Terrorbird was 150 hitpoints and 99 kills per hour, that is 14,850 experience. Iron/Steel Dragon and Skeletal Wyverns, the average SLayer has these tasks blocked or will cancel them. Not sure if alot of people skip Mithril ones. His Black Dragons are based on the adults, on babies you will get faster experience. Funnily enough Zarfot's Guide shows Greaters being at max 21k Slayer experience per hour. Abyssal Demons will get up to 4k more experience than that. Gargoyles are also up to 4k higher than Greater Demons. Waterfiends up to 2k higher, Nechryaels up to 3k higher. Then there is things like Terrorbirds are really up to 51k Slayer experience per hour, Suqahs are 50k, Dark Beasts are 36k. Overall only 4 tasks are slower than Greaters, All the metal dragons and Skeletal Wyverns. the average Slayer will skop those (not completely sure on Mithril Dragons). Also who says you have to gain the money at Aviansies? There are other ways of getting 400k money per hour. I showed my calculations again, and I also stated what you would need to value your Range experience at for it to be worth it. 5 isn't an even number : . You can level Aviansies and Zombies just as easily with only 1 hour. since we are also going by per hour, it makes to work it out by per hour. I fail to see how my way was more confusing, if anything it was clearer. Prove your numbers wrong huh? *looks at previous post* Yep already done. Yes it was a typo. 60-43.3 = 16.7. So it was just a little mistake. Even still, my next step was based on 16.7 minutes anyway, so the numbres after that are still right. You keep repeating they make no sense, how do they not. Slayer gets 104k per hour overall experience and 50k profit. Zombie Monkies gets 144k per hour overall and 110k loss. For Zombie Monkies to get the same amount of experience as Slayer takes 43.3 minutes. In 43.3 you lose 79.4k (104/144 *110), add to that the 50k profit you wuld have got from Slayer makes 129.4k. You now have 16.7 minutes to gain that 129.4k for Zombie Monkies to be worth it. That means you need to be able to get 466k per hour. Regardless of how you make it (Aviansies or not), you need to regain that much per hour. If it Aviansies you would be 66k behind. If you value range at only 1.65 each then it will be more efficient. Keep in mind training via chinchompas (you say is the most efficient way) costs 3.67 per experience, which makes the value higher than that. So no, if Aviansies is your way of making money, Slayer is more efficient. I've already what is wrong with your number many times. Other than a typo (which amazingly changed nothing), you've yet to say anything that is wrong with mine. That would be more than likely due to there not being anything wrong. Qeltar's numbers aren't even from Slayer. 100% attention I doubt. Your 100% must be different to other peoples 100% also. Zarfot's numbers, using only superhuman strength can get up to 19k Slayer experience per hour. I've also yet to be "proven wrong" by you. Simpler, that is funny. How is taking out Slayer experience a bettre method? It comes down to Slayer being more efficient as overall you will get slightly less experience per hour, but due to the additional money it is better off. Also note that was done wit 50k profit, the rate is higher than that. The 1-2k is coming from banking. Did I not make that clear? "During the banking time you will lose out on about 1-2k experience per hour." Well it appears I did make it clear. Yes or no, while you leave to go to the bank to restock, and to come back, you are not getting any Slayer experience? The answer is yes. If you could bank in under a minute or two the number wouldn't be that high. This si where you misunderstand the value of experience. Yes it would be 260m for Slayer, however do you know why? 260m is what you would be willing to pay to instantly get the 13mil Slayer experience. Keep in mind 13mil Slayer experience takes about 500 hours (at Zarfot's rate). Meaning if you make over 520k per hour it would be worth spending 260m to instantly get 99 Slayer (but you can't actually buy experience anyway). 300 kills per hour is 90k melee experience per hour (Zamorak Spiritual Mages). Skewing the results on purpose again are we? You yourself are now saying the rate is 0.89 Summoning to 1 Slayer experience. So why did you tell me to change it to 0.7 before? Well since you have admitted the rate is higher, that makes Slayer even more efficient. Is 13.8mil Slayer experience not over 1-99 Slayer? Sure may have started at 99, but that still gives a very good indication. With the ratio being 0.89 it becomes 7.19X = 144,000 for them to be equal in experience per hour. At 14.9k Slayer experience per hour you now get 107k overall experience per hour (extra 3k). I could walk you through the calculations again, but they are the same as above with 107k instead of 104k. It becomes Zombie Monkies are only more efficient if you can make over 503,611. That is 37,611 higher than before. Didn't I explain this before? On Slayer with my equipment and using superhuman strength I can hit up to 45. Using an Unholy Book, Trimmed Cape (like you said I should use), using the Salve Ammy (e), I hit up to 45. So the extra 13% Strength bonus just evens out the loss in equipment. So the point about the Strength difference is null. Why do you keep mentioning the equipment that you use, have already established it ends up being equal or worse for you. Yes lower levels, but hardly enough for a significant difference. With piety, you are still hitting less often also. "+10% strength is a tad worse then +23% strength and +20% attack, no?" Yes it is worse, but Zombie Monkies are worse than Dust Devils. So the Strength is equal, the higher Attack helps, but you are still hitting less often. That is why Dust Devils are better. It isn't really an "attempt" when I suceeded. I showed without a doubt that unless you make over 500k per hour, provided that you are only training at 14.9k Slayer experience per hour, provided you only gain a profit of 50k from Slayer per hour, that Slayer is more efficient. Calculate in the Slayer rate is alot high as is the profit, only makes Slayer more efficient. Oh of course i'll argue about a made up 0.7 rate you told me to use. Then you follow up by saying the rate is 0.89. Right ok, making up numbers again isn't going to help you. I have explained I understand what you were doing at the time, but that it was wrong. You can't determine if a cannon is worth using on Slayr simply because another method gives X amount of experience at Y loss. P.S I checked in a Word doc, this one was 10 pages long :lol:

I think you'll find that wrong. I know him from another sites forums (not a fansite or anything, sort of like a clan/community). He didn't get Summoning the way you explained. [hide=This is how][/hide] It is a bit small, but still readable. People have mentioned someone who got 4mil farming experience in day and he used big abuse or something. I remember someone posting on these forums in Tip.Iters Runescape Events about it, but I couldn't find the topic. With Thief, it is possible to get 10m or so experience in less than an hour and a half. All you need to know is how to do it. People don't get just get these rates on a whim. Alot of planning goes into this.

When did I say ko hits had no effect? I have mentioned many times I don't like when people accuse me of saying things when I didn't. My post you quoted is proof itself that I never said anything about it having no effect. I even specifically mentioned how many there were. Also, how can you be sure the average hit is actually the median? Well that is a mistake. You can't predict how many cannonballs you will use per hour without testing. Nearly every task (where a cannon is applicable) uses over 1k cannonballs, and all those tasks take under an hour to do. Apparently i'm not the only one who misunderstands things (i'll explain this furthur down). You can't be certain that it uses 5 minutes per hour, that is a guess. My maths with the Aberrant Spectres was wildy inaccurate.... perhaps you should actually read them this time. I based what I said on tests (performed by Qeltar, so don't say they are inaccurate). I used Qeltar's numbers, even though mine are higher, I still used his. It did indeed show without a doubt the cost of using a cannon per hour for that task. I know you have stated 400k many times and I knew that, but you haven't said the rate that many which is why I was unsure of the number. However, I would like to point out here that we also see more proof of your mathematical capabilities... Aviansies are 40k per hour you say, and chinchompas are 240k, 40,000/240,000 *60 = 10 minutes, not 8 :o . Also 40,000/240,000 *480,000 = 80,000gp, also not 66k. So that means you have used up 10 minutes to gain the same amount of experience as Aviansies per hour. That leaves 50 minutes to make up the 480k (80k from chinchompas and 400k from Aviansies), that is 576k that needs to be made per hour for chinchompas to be more efficient. With 400k as what the person makes, they are not worth using. Even with your 8 minutes and 66k, that is 537k that needs to be made up. You again come back to comparing the cost of a cannon to chinchompas, how many more time do I have to say it isn't needed? The working out I did can be applied to every other task to determine what amount you need to make back per hour for a cannon to be worth using. How about I show you another task then, Kalphites: 162 kills/hour melee only. 320 kills/hour melee with a cannon. You use up 1530 cannonballs in that time, that costs 290,700 (at 190 each). You would complete the task of 162 Kalphites in 30.3 minutes. It cost you 147,166 in order to save 29.7 minutes. You now have 29.7 minutes to make back that money. 147,166/0.494 = 298,059gp per hour. Since we make 400k per hour, a cannon is worth using for this task. Please explain how this is wrong... I see no mistakes. The cannon speeds up the rate of Slayer experience here by almost exactly 100%, that is twice as fast. Also you metaphor with the fruit is nonsensical. Comparing apples to half apples and half oranges.... err, making a fruit salad? Not the same amount of apples if there is even 1 orange. Say you have 10 apples. Compare that to 10 apples and 3 oranges... same amount of apples I see, except now you have more fruit in total. Luckily enough, as I have been saying all this... you don't do the numbers with only a cannon. Finally you agree with me. What do you mean if anyway? You worked out the cost of getting 99 Slayer using only a cannon before, which was oh so wrong. Now we see you really did miss the point, not me. I wasn't referring to time lost/profit/experience per hour or whatever else you think. I am talking about the value of experience, I explained what I meant... yet you still think I am talking about time lost? Read through that again. You also neglected to answer my question. That question was specifically for you to answer on how much you value the experience. What I said was that if the difference in cost between chinchompas and a cannon is 5.9gp per experience... how on earth does that mean that Slayer costs 5.9gp per experience? That is like saying with Fletching that it costs you 10gp per experince training with magic longs and only 5gp with yew longs... so that means that it costs 5gp each to train Range! (Numbers may not actually be correct, unless I am that good at guessing : ) So tell me, how can you be 100% sure that the average hit is always half the max hit? You didn't by chance guess that did you?... cause you know... that would make all you calculations inaccurate. Please also explain how your little scenario with Whip was anything close to what I posted (you also said the max hit was 22 with a max hit of 44, think you meant average of 22). 1k cannonballs got me that much Range experience, is that not a "hit spread"? How am I arguing the max hit of the cannon anywy, max hit is 30, you won't see me say otherwise. The number is actually 0.94, that was calculated from 13.8mil Slayer experience giving 13mil Summoning experience. The rate for lower levels would be somewhere around 0.8, but i'll put 0.7 anyway. Also, unless I am mistaken, do familiars give Hitpoint experience as well as the target experience? I based my calculations on them not. Using those numbers though i'll show you the calculations again. It becomes 7X = 145,730 X = 20,818 to get the same amount of overall experience per hour. Let us say you get 12.5k Slayer experience per hour. Overall you get 87.5k experience per hour. It would take 36 minutes to gain that much via Zombie Monkies. You have 24 minutes spare to make up 118.64k (68.64k loss at Monkies with only a 50k profit from Slayer). You will have to make, 297k per hour for Monkies to be worth it. I'll explain in the next section why this isn't really right. also. You now Slayer gets approximately 14.9k per hour. So the above test shows the "threshold". Since you now get more experience, that means that Slayer is more efficient after all. Keep in mind you yourself got 15.7k Slayer experience per hour at Greaters. Greaters are about the slowest task that the average Slayer does. So that means the rate is even higher. Even at 14.9k Slayer experience per hour, you would need to make over 466k per hour for Monkies to be more efficient. Also note that 50k isn't correct. The average profit was up to 150k per hour, but I purposely lowered it to 50k to prove a point. At 100k profit per hour from Slayer at 14.9k Slayer experience per hour, you would need to make over 646k per hour for Slayer to be worth it. Hell, lets go up to a rate of 20k Slayer experience per hour (even though the average Slayer will average over that). You'd need to make 5,230k per hour for Monkies to be more efficient (although with my rate at Zilyana that isn't a problem :lol: ). First things first, since we work it by per hour, why do you need to go to 5 hours? 1 hour of slayer 104k experience per hour and 50k (according to your numbers). For Monkies to gain that much would take 43.3 minutes. You now have 26.7 minutes to make back the loss of 129.4k. That means you need to make the equivalent of 466k per hour. You would also gain in that time 14.8k experience from the Aviansies. So unless you value that experience at 66,000/14,800 = 4.5gp each, Slayer is more efficient. The 66k was the additional money that couldn't be made up within the time limit. 14.8k was experience gained with the time limit. Look at my numbers, tell me if you see a mistake. Look above, Slayer is better. Also 'best case' Scenario? That was 14.9k Slayer experience per hour. You get more than that on the slowest Slayer task that the average player will do. Ignore the 5 hours, it is not needed. 1 hour of Slayer is 104k experience and 50k Profit (according to your numbers). For Monkies to gain that much would take 43.3 minutes. You now have 26.7 minutes to make back the loss of 129.4k. That means you need to make the equivalent of 466k per hour. That part was the same as above, as after all nothing in that part changed. Now yes, if you have 91+ runecrafting, then Zombie Monkies are more efficient at that rate. However, I have stated many times that those aren't the rates the average Slayer will train at. You get more than 50k profit per hour and more than 14.9k Slayer experience per hour (you proved the part about the Slayer experience being higher yourself). Also note that in that time you will also gain 7.5k Runecrafting experience. You say if you count Runecrafting experience as valuable as Slayer experience that they can be taken out. Woops. nope they can't. They can only be taken out if you value Runecrafting experience 1.987, or simply twice as much as Slayer experience. I mentioned other factors than simply how often and how high you hit. The Defence bonus here is important. Without it you are guaranteed to have to bank at least once during the task. During the banking time you will lose out on about 1-2k experience per hour. So that means overall you are hitting more often, hitting higher, and on top of that an add on another 1-2k because you did it in one trip. If as you say it will only boost your kill rate by 20% (you mentioned this figure on the second last post, page 14). That means in the time it takes to get say 14k experience without piety, you would get 16.8k with. add on to that about 1.5k (1-2k loss for banking, i'll use 1.5k since it is halfway), that brings it up to 18.3k per hour. 18.3/14 * 100 = 31% increase. Now while that isn't 38%, it is very close. So it is still slightly less efficient, but that tiny extra loss would still be worth it for the increased experience in my opinion. It would be about 483k as the level at which piety becomes worth it for this task. 83k extra for an extra 4.3k experience. So if you value Slayer experience at 19.3 each it is worth using piety. Also note that Dragon Boots are 320.7k at the moment, so if you can kill 151-225 Spiritual Mages per hour (you can do 300 per hour on slayer), and that is at a 1:100 to 1:150 drop rate, then you can make 483k per hour anyway. That might be true if you can't read properly. Have I not mentioned several times now that it was 13.8mil Slayer experience to 13mil Summoning experience? Since when did I "inconstantly flit" around that? Want to know something else also? From Qeltar's numbers you average 35.63 crimsons per hour for 12,685 Summoning experience per hour. From his numbers you got 12.5k Slayer experience, and that was before you fixed up the table. I got 13.2k from his numbers. That is a ratio of 0.96:1, that is even higher than Zarfot's. So by all means, if you want me to change it to Qeltars rather than Zarfots, it will only make Slayer even more efficient than what it already is. I fail to see how I was doing everything worse than you. I've already gone over this. You hit less often even with a better prayer. So what you say about the prayer doesn't change anything (with the equipment you said, I hit just as high as on Dust Devils with superhuman Strength). Everything worse than you? Nope. Much worse prayers? Nope. Fewer hits maybe, but increased accuracy. They are simply a better monster to train on via Slayer. Now that Slayer has conclusively been proven to be considerably more efficient, by your numbers I might add, the argument may indeed be around the smaller points. That would only be due to you still trying to find a way for Monkies to be more efficient, when they aren't. That was proven with your numbers. I've no need to centre my arguments about anything like that. Even using your 0.7 I have proven with your number Slayer is still more efficient. I do understand the calculations you used with the cannon, I however do not agree with the reason behind them. That means while I can understand how you got to the numbers, it wasn't the right way to work it out. P.S I had trouble previewing this post before I posted it, something about it being invalid. So I saved it to a word doc to make sure I didn't lose all of what I typed up. It is 7 pages :shock: :o :lol:

How does not mentioning whether I potted or not affect how often Prayer drains? I potted as often as I do at Dust Devils or aynwhere, 1 dose every 10 mins. I would almost think it was obvious I was potting. How else did I get to 98k per hour? What do you mean double my Prayer drain rate? The rate was lowered, not increased. The first time I tested with piety and protect from melee it was using up 19 potions per hour, now it is 14.5. Either way that is a loss of over 110k per hour. You purposely understated the loss at Zombie Monkies by about 275%. Umm... a little unfinished here? :lol: The rate was actually slightly higher. I tested it at Mutated Bloodvelds when I was trying to determine the effect of Range Level on the cannon. I did 3 tests, one at 0 range, one at base stats (89 at the time), and one potted (kept potting each time it dropped, so I stayed at 101). I got 25,235 Range experience at base stats. When I was potted I got 25,424 Range experience (so in other words, Range pots aren't worth taking during tasks where you use a cannon). At 0 Range I got 7,773 Range experience. Keep in mind I never said that was per hour, but per 1k cannonballs. Halving the max hit and making the allowances you did was actually more inaccurate. There is also the matter of the monsters Defence, so the rate could be lower or even higher. So no your results weren't necessarily dead on accurate and scientific. While I was doing the test, I wasn't attacking the Bloodvelds with anything either. It did actually kill alot of Bloodvelds, approximately 68. So yes, there was "ko hits" involved. What you get from other methods of training is irrelvant, i've already stated this and shown why. You are not losing out on Range experience because you are using a cannon. The cannon is giving extra Range experience while you get melee experience (if that makes sense). Like I showed with Aberrant Spectres, I proved that if you value Range experience at 0, you have to make 421k or more for the cannon to be worth using. If you do make more, and use the cannon, that is more efficient than if you don't. How do you not understand that? You say you got Range to cost 3.67gp each. You worked that out because with chinchompas gets 240k Range experience per hour at a loss of 480k per hour. That means it cost 2gp each. At Aviansies you will make 400k profit and only get about 50k(?) experience. It takes 12.5 minutes to gain 50k Range experience and costs 100k with chinchompas. You now need to make up 500k in the remaining time. Therefore chinchompas are only more efficient if you can make over 631.6k per hour. You keep saying to use 400k as what you can make per hour, therefore you can't compare them to chinchompas, because it is less efficient. I explain as I go, makes it easier to understand. There is no difference between single and multi. Either way you are still going to spend the same amount of time tending to the cannon. It is still going to be shooting in addition to how you are killing. It doesn't matter if it can only shoot one monster at once compared to five. An example of this is Fire Giants. I kill them in the Waterfall dungeon and I use a cannon there. It is single combat, but you'd be amazed at how fast the experience is. You don't need to Range while using the cannon in single. I think for a lot of time before I respond to each section, not each post. So don't try to insult me about that. You have misinterpretted what I am trying to get across. "Experience rates and profit are two TOTALLY differnet things".... you neglected to see I wasn't talking about experience rates or profit. I was talking about the value of experience. That isn't profit or an experience rate. You worked out Range experience by Chinchompas to be 3.67gp per experience. That is the cost, not the value. The value is higher than that. Answer this, would you spend 47,836,362 to go instantly from 1-99 Range. You cannot even answer yes to that. That was using 3.67*13,034,431. That is how much you would spend by using chinchompas. Therefore you can't spend the same amount of money to do it instantly as time is money. So it comes down to simply. On top of that 47.8m, how much extra would you pay for it to be done instantly? Do you understand what I am talking about now? It is like buying experience, how much are you willing to pay for it? Has your light bulb turned on now? Simply, can't be done. You can't eliminate training alongside a cannon as a variable. The cannon is an addition, it is merely there to make things go faster, not your primary way to train. It speeds up the tasks enough that in the extra time, if you make enough money, it is worth using. That is what I showed with the Aberrant Spectres. I understood what you were doing in most sections, but there was some which made no sense to me. 23.8 range XP for 227.7 GP, making for: 227.7/23.8 = 9.57 GP\Range XP, vs. 3.67 GP for Range XP with Avansies, loss of 5.9 GP per XP. I understand this part. When compared to training at chinchompas you are spending an extra 5.9gp/xp. The 5.9 GP\XP cost is going towards slayer, earning us half the range XP, or 11.8 GP\slayer XP. The next line I don't. The difference in cost doesn't go to Slayer. Simply because you get more range experience for what you pay at chinchompas, doesn't mean the cost of using a cannon increases. I've said this so many times. Other training methods are irrelevant here. The main problem is you are looking at this from the perspective of Range experience. It is about the increase in Slayer experience. With these numbers compared to what I showed with Aberrant Spectres, only one can be correct. Now I personally know I made no mistakes, and that for them 421k is the point at which a cannon becomes worth it. By all means, if you can't make 421k per hour, don't use a cannon. If you can make over that, you'd be foolish not to use it. Actually, what you have been arguing is that Slayer sucks. Just because it is doesn't get as much melee experience per hour, doesn't mean it is worse. Counting every bit of experience gained, Slayer gets either barley less, equal or more than the overall experience at Zombie Monkies. I'll break it down for you: Slayer experience = X Zombie Monkies overall experience per hour = 143.3k Therefore the overall experience from Slayer is X + 4X + 1.3X + 0.9X = 7.2X Slayer experience + melee experience + Hitpoints experience + Summoning experience If the amount you get at Zombie Monkies is the same as at Slayer then: 7.2X = 143,300 X = 19,902 Slayer experience That is without a cannon however. Since I don't know the ratio of melee/Range experience while using a cannon during Slayer I can't factor that in yet. Even without a cannon, here is the interesting part: Even at a pitiful 12.5k Slayer experience per hour, overall you would get about 90,000 experience. Zombie Monkies would get that much experience in 37.7 minutes. At Zombie Monkies you lose 110k per hour, with Slayer you can make up to 150k per hour, however i'll simply bring it down to 50k to prove a point. You have 22.3 minutes to make up the money lost at Zombie Monkies. That is the equivalent of 430.2k. Since you use 400k per hour as what the average person can make.... Slayer is more efficient. Ta-da, complete proof. Keep in mind that it is easily possible to make well over that amount per hour (at Greaters you got 15,660 Slayer experience, and they are about the slowest task that the average Slayer will do). At 15,660 Slayer experience per hour, you would need to make on average over 750.6k per hour. Have I shown it is more efficient yet? I'm not finding anything hard to grasp. Have you actually tested with and without piety? How can you know for certain how fast the task becomes? Need to do a test. I don't see why you think I am missing something. Be honest, will the "average slayer" even do a task of these? Or will the cancel/block it? If anything, the average slayer that does do this task will probably find piety worth using. I actually showed a few posts ago that 80-99 Slayer was to get to 96 Summoning. If you started from level 1 Slayer, it would be be about either high 97's or low 98's for Summoning. Since 13.8mil Slayer experience gets 13mil Summoning the ratio is 0.94:1. Even dropping it to 0.9:1, 11,000,000 Slayer experience gets 9.9mil Summoning experience, that is level 96 Summoning. So 80-99 Slayer gets 1-96 Summoning. Also note that if what you said was true. Yes the average would drop, but not by alot. It drops to about 354. Not a big difference. Getting more experience at Dust Devils because they have lower Defence. Maybe just because as I have been saying that they are simply a better monster to train on. Maybe as I have said before that the equipment I use is actually better than proselyte. I use controlled to train. Only reason I used Accurate here was to record the experience gain easier. I would think that since I mentioned I was 94 94 94 before and now 95 95 95, that it shows I train with controlled.

Refer to my edit in the previous post. With piety the chance on hitting on Zombies was less than Dust Devils. Again refer to the edit. Still more experience per hour at Dust Devils and also reasons why. When I tried to make them aggressive the first time I ran back past the ladder you come down in and back. They were still unaggressive. So I ran down the bridge (east? I think, can't remember which way the compass was facing) and through the narrow part of the tunnel. Once there I went back and they were aggressive again. It is actually 22% : . I also explained reasons why I was getting less. Lower stats is an obvious factor. I was using a Saradomin Godsword compared to his Saradomin Sword which would have been faster. I don't know how much of an effect it would have, but I kill on clsoe side he uses the far side. I don't see where you getting this from. No-one knows how the system actually calulates how often you hit, so therefore how could you say that is how it works? You can't. However according to you, since the 15% only comes into affect when you would have missed (7.5% of the time), then wouldn't the number still decrease by 15%, not 7.5%? meaning you would now only hit 0's 6.2% of the time. I still don't think that is how it works though since your Attack level is always in effect. I was looking at the number of the cannon. All of those percentages don't need to be done. Reason why? 1k cannonballs on average will get you 25k Range experience and hence 12.5k Slayer experience. Meaning on average you hit 12.5, but that is already inclusive of how often you miss. This isn't necessarily true. People value experience differently. Not every uses chinchompas to train either. From what I see here you say it costs 480k to train for 1 hour with chinchompas, then you went for 1 hour at Aviansies where you made 400k. You didn;t facor in the Range experience from Aviansies themselves and after those 2 hours would the cost not be 80k? Unless you are specifically stating that because you didn't use Aviansies that you lose out on that 400k you could have made? That is the only way your numbers make sense to me. It takes about 2 minutes over the course of 1k cannonballs in time used to load and set up the cannon. However, there is one important factor you are missing. That is the time taken. Yes you did calculate that into the cost of the cannonball, but that isn't what I meant. According to you 1k cannonballs takes 5 mins of your time. Is it then not fair to say that for every second you spend on maintaining the cannon you are getting 83.3 Range experience per second? In other words you are getting the equivalent of 300k Range experience per hour. You have also confused what I meant by the value of experience. I could make about 1million per hour while Runecrafting, does that mean the I value experience as being about 37gp profit each? No it doesn't. Put simply, you will make about 1mil in an hour and also gain 27k experience. If you were already 99, extra experience doesn't change anything, so why get it? Because it has a value. How much do you value that extra experience at? Personally I don't know what I value mine at, but for Runecrafting, I would estimate about 15-20gp per experience. The value of experience isn't what it costs to attain. It cannot be measured by using maths. I have found a vital flaw in this calculation. Which also then shows that 99 Slayer doesn't cost 153.8m. If everything you have done up till here is correct then let me just change one thing here. Since it apparently costs 11.8gp per Slayer experience with a cannon (as you say), you then say Slayer costs 153.8M. See your mistake yet? You calculated what it would cost using only a cannon to obtain the Slayer experience. Note that while doing Slayer you using the cannon in conjunction with melee or range (nearly all cases it is melee). 13,034,431 Slayer experience will get 52,137,724 combat experience. Since it will also max out Attack Strength and Defence that leaves 3,258,607 Slayer experience for the cannon. While yes that is only 6.5mil Range experience, the average player already has higher stats by the time they start training Slayer. They will end up maxing out all the skills via 99 Slayer. So at your value of 11.8, that means the cost of Slayer with a cannon is 38,451,571gp. That means by using a cannon, you will lose that much money. However, you need to take into account how much faster you will gain Slayer experience. In the end, it will be more efficient to sue a cannon, than to not. This is nearly an exact copy/paste of the part above. I don't see how it would do that with a higher rate. As afterall, training via Slayer does give on average more overall experience per hour, and if not, it is only just less. Besides, you were correct, I would have said your numbers were invalid with 1m an hour at GWD. Not for the reasons you think though. GWD isn't a guaranteed money maker, you can't guarantee that you will average that (although I think my average is extremely high for soloing Zilyana, but we won't go there : ). How does it increase your attack by 10%? Piety gives 20% bonus. It boosts max hit by about 6 for me (from 45 to 51) with the 23% increase to Strength level. Also note that the Defence of piety also comes into play here. I will get hit less, therefore eat less (so less time wasted due to delays), on the same amount of food i'll last long making it more likely to finish the task in one trip. Taking a bank trip during the task makes you lose out on 1-2k Salyer experience. I also never said it would come down to 400k, but that it would be lower than 761k. The statement about the 120 isn't entirely worthless. I also said I only managed to kill4 in his 1 only one time. On average it was less, I was still killing 2 for his 1. Again it provides no real data to work on, it does show piety causes a significant difference. When did I say 343? I did state 96 Summoning and I also said that it averages to be just over 350 per crimson (I really don't like when people say I said things when I didn't). Even though the difference is small, you keep changing what I say and adding things which I never said. I have mentioned so many times that 99 Slayer wouldn't get you to 96 Summoning, so how could that have been your point? I mentioned that in the first place and already stated that. What you say next makes no sense... sure people may more than likely change to a faster way to get charms. "Never reach as high of a summoning level with slayer charms" means what not? What do you mean that the XP per charm would be lower due or lower level'd pouches. How fast you obtain the charms or how efficient it is, is irrelevant. You will still average the same amount of experience per charm regardless of how it is obtained. I mentioned earlier about the edit which you missed, I'll add it here just to be sure you see it:

So far only one task however. Wait till you have done alot more. Yes sometimes I have to pick up drops but that doesn't lose attack time. Eating at the right will still slow you down, but by 0.5-1 Whip hit. As for running between monsters, yes I do have to run sometimes.... for about 2 steps. They spawn close together, and I always try to have 2 attacking me at once. This allows me to always be attacking and the time to run to another doesn't matter, because as I move towards another one, I am still attacking one. Everything is still fine in my eyes. Zombie Monkies will simply have a higher Defence level than Dust Devils. I'll test later. I won't say I never miss a hit, but I rarely do. Also at zombies every 10 mins you need to run away (which takes longer than 10 seconds i'm sure). However, that is not alot of time lost in the long run, that is about how much I would lose with missed Whip hits. If there is one other person, you don't have to run that much further. The 144 crimsons wasn't from me. If you recall back to when I posted the average Summoning experience per hour during all the Slayer tasks, I got the averages from Zarfot's guides. I said that I personally don't get that high. I also said that I get about 100 crimsons per hour while on Slayer for Waterfiends. Add in the other charms and the equivalent of maybe 110. That is wrong. A 15% bonus to Attack level isn't a 15% bonus to accuracy. I was hitting at that high a rate due to the use of a Slayer Helm. If I say turned on incredible reflexes (+15% Attack prayer), I would hit more often. That isn't 7.5% or whatever you think it is though. Put simply with Slayer and no attack prayer, I am hitting with the equivalent of 108 Attack on every Whip hit. Each hit is being calculated with that number. With an extra 15% from prayer, I would have 122 Attack. How much more often would I hit now? Not alot of room for change, I might hit overall 95% of the time though. What you don't understand is that your attack level is in effect all the time. You can't say for 92.5% I would have hit anyway and the rest is determind by the extra bonus. You only hit 92.5% of the time due to the increased Attack. A person with 122 attack would hit slightly more often on Dust Devils compared to someone with 108. Either way it doesn't matter, as the bonus is always in effect. How was I doing it the wrong way? Elaborate please. The only "wrong thing" you mentioned before was that I wasn't factoring in Range experience. I explained why it didn't matter for this. The point is, with a cannon, you would complete a task of Aberrant Spectres in 47.7% of the time it would take without. You would spend 209k to save that 32 minutes. However, you would have used up about 2 minutes on the task to load the cannon up all the time. You have still have 30 mins free time in which to make up that much. If as you say I factor in Range experience, that makes the cannon even better, not worse. If you say value your Range experience at 5gp per experience point, that means in Range experience you gained 137,875gp in Range experience. That means that on the task you spent the equivalent of 71,695gp in order to complete the task that much fastre as well as the Range experience. That means a cannon is worth it if you can make over 143,390gp/h. Now obviously not everyone values their Range experience at 5gp each, but since there will be a value regardless, the cannon only becomes better, not worse. As for you saying that we have been using 400k per hour. That was your number. I personally value my time as over 1mil per hour (I love Runecrafting : ). No-one says we have to use 400k per hour. I was just stating that for a cannon to be worth it (if you value Range experience at 0), you would have to make over 421k. Spiritual Mages can make up to 450k per hour, and you also gain experience. So technically if you value melee experience than your value of time is over 450k. You've misunderstood how to calculate it. You simply quoted Zarfot's guide with no idea how he got that number. While I do agree with alot of things in his guides, I also think for myself. I understand that he got that number by assuming tasks go 20% faster with piety as compared to no prayer. There is also a factor of how fast your Prayer drains and what your level is (higher level = more restoration per dose of Prayer potion). With a +19 Prayer bonus with a level of say 75 Prayer (potions restore 27 prayer). In an hour it drains 1500 prayer points. That is 13.9, or 14 prayer potions per hour to compensate for that. Going 20% faster you save 8.33 minutes each hour. At a cost of 7,552 (current mid), you spend 105,728 to save 8.33 minutes, that is 761,241 per hour. It depends on many factors, one of which is how much faster it lets you do tasks. If on Skeletal Wyverns you go more than 20% faster than with no prayer, then the value of 761k drops. If it speeds up by less than 20%, the value increases. Now i'm not entirely sure what the other person was using, but when I did a task of 77 of them, I mentioned I was killing faster than someone else there (also on slayer). I was killing up to 4 in the time he took for one, and he was about 120 combat. Even if I only killed on average 1.5 for his 1 (though it was really alot higher), that is about 50% faster. So yes, piety for certain tasks if definately worth it in my opinion. When have I said 343? If you got all your charms from doing say 0-99 Slayer (Zarfot did 13.8m experience which is over 0-99, however that got him to 99 Summoning) or even from higher at 73/80-99, you would end up with Summoning in the 90s. If Zarfot did 13.8m Slayer xp and 13m Summoning, that means his average ratio was 1:0.94. Even dropping it to 1:0.9, to get to 96 Summoning from 52 requires you get 10.5m Slayer experience. 80-99 Slayer will get that much and a little more. So what does that mean? With 96 Summoning requiring 26k crimsons, it average to just over 356 per crimson. All that working out just showed that you don't have to start at 0 Slayer to get to 96 Summoning. -EDIT I performed another test at Zombie Monkies (well, 2 in 1 really). To see the Prayer drain rate with piety+protect from melee while using a Trimmed Cape, Unholy Book and SGS for specials. I also tested to see how often I hit. I also tested to see how long it takes to run away and come back to get them agressive again. I wasn't sure the best place to run to, but it took me 23 seconds, but I doublebacked a bit so 20 seconds seems good. I'll show the Prayer drain working first: Had Prayer on for 10:08, but 10 minutes to round it off. I used up 2.5 Prayer potions in that time. so 600 seconds to drain that much, add on the 20 seconds to run away and come back 620. 620/3600 = 0.172 2.5/0.172 = 14.52, so 14.5 Prayer Potions per hour. 14.5*7,552 = 109,504 With just calculating Prayer only it is 110k loss per hour. I went through and watched it again. I did 259 Hits in total (SGS included). 231 hit, which is an 89.2% hit rate. 28 missed, which is 10.8% miss rate. I don't see how much clearer this can get. Even with piety compared to Dust Devils superhuman strength, you hit on Zombie Monkies less often. So as I predicted, the reason you rarely miss at Zombie Monkies is only because of piety. Even then, you still hit more often on Dust Devils. Also note that my stats for testing this were 95 95 95, on Dust Devils that was with 94 94 94. So if anything the results were slightly biased towards the Zombie Monkies. Put simply, everything as you have put it was in favour of Zombie Monkies. Slightly higher stats, more bonuses from Prayer, I was even using the Accurate mode of Whip compared to at Dust Devils where I used Controlled (extra 2 Attack levels in favour of the Monkies) and you still hit less often. Also I noted that at the rate I was getting experience it was 98.4k Attack experience/hour. That should answer a few questions.

But that was only one task you have tested so far : . Those were the only tasks where he used Black Mask/Slayer Helm, so those were the ones able to get a comparison. You would have test every other task yourself to be able to find the difference due to the Slayer Helm. It wasn't intended as an argument. The equipment as shown, wasn't worse, and the method is for a different monster so there will be differences. I had a guess at the reason why the prayer wasn't making you get more experience also. Maybe it is only due to using piety that you hit so well on the Monkies. Without the boost to attack you wouldn't hit as often, nor as high due to the strength increase. I just went through my vid of Dust Devils and I checked to see how often I hit. Now that I see the numbers even I am amazed at how high the rate is. There was 107 hits with Whip, 99 of them hit. That is a 92.5% hit rate with 7.5% chance of hitting a 0. That is without piety and with a Slayer Helm, so I think it is fair to say they do have low Defence. I remember when I was testing prayer drain (superhuman strength one) at Zombie Monkies with a Whip (yes I was also super setted), that I hit alot more 0s zompared to Dust Devils. So i'll break it up. You keep saying you are in continous combat. At Dust Devils it is easy enough to make sure you are always attacking without delaying Whip hits, so that part is the same. Equipment is harder to say which is better, they are either equal, or mine was better. An extra 5% to Strength will not make up a loss of about 20 in strength bonus. Similar for the Attack also. The prayer has a difference yes. Even with piety you are more than likely missing more often than at Dust Devils. However, if you combine the piety with the extra strength bonus from the Salve, that is an extra 18% to Strength level. That is about an extra 17 Strength levels, which is about equal to the 20 or so extra strength bonus I have at Dust Devils. True, but the difference is minimal. One person at the far side could also slow down the experience, so it doesn't really change. There is more than enough spawns for up to 3 people (depending on levels) to kill on the close side without a significant loss in speed. Actually, if you hit, it is likely do the Attack bonus doing something. It gives you an increased chance to hit. Regardless of whether you hit or not, every time you try to hit the Attack bonus is in effect and is working 100% of the time. However, with the Strength bonus, the only time it isn't in effect is if you miss. So the Strength bonus is having an effect equal to percentage of how often you hit. You missed what I was trying to show. I could have added in the Range experience, but it doesn't matter. What I was simply trying to show was that a cannon is worth using, not that it is the most efficient way to train. Chinchompas are more than likely the most efficient way to train, but that doesn't make the cannon any less good to use. It is about 25k Range experience per 1k cannonballs, so it would have been about 27.6k range experience. The point was, if you make over 420k an hour, a cannon is worth using for that task (I did nothing to prove the opposite). An hour at Spiritual Mages or Aviansies will make about that also. What is the difference in testing other tasks with superhuman strength and Mithril Dragons and Skeletal Wyverns with piety. To compare the experience? We already know the experience is alot less due to their high defence. You don't need to test them with both prayers, just piety for those 2. The '800k threshold' comes from how much faster it lets you do the task. Zarfot estimated 20% faster I think. Although depending on the monster itself, it has cause to fluctuate. You should also change the crimsons then ;) . As your tests show, the ratio of Summoning:Slayer experience is about 0.94:1 on Greaters. So at that rate it is of course getting into the high 90s for Summoning, therby also increasing the average experience per crimson. The same could also be done for green and blue, but i've not bothered to work those out. The higher your Summoning level also, the closer the ratio gets to being 1:1 due to increased experience from the charms.

I checked mine and swapped out the cannon ones for melee. I got to 52.9k exprience per hour (practically the same). But it is hard to say how much to "adjust" it by for Slayer. An example of how much the Slayer Helm speeds up a task from Qeltar is Abyssal Demons. He got 91 kills without and 112 without per hour. That is a 23% increase with just the addition of the Slayer Helm and no prayer. On Fire Giants he got 143 without and 155 with, that is a 8.4% increase. Gargoyles is 129 without and 137 with, a 6.2% increase. Hellhounds is 126 without and 143 with, a 13.5% increase. Kalphites is 162 without and 184 with, a 13.6% increase. Nechryaels is 122 without and 140 with, a 14.8% increase. Those were the only ones he had a est for with a Black Mask/Slayer Helm. Add prayer to that and it will get higher still. Most likely a better Whip : . I've not lied about this or exaggerated so I really don't know what causes the rates to be like this. All I know is that is what I get, as for how.... can't really say. With Lunar, I don't take the runes with me on the task. Depending on the task I take either a House Tablet or a Glory as my tele. Either way I end up at Edgeville, once there I withdraw the runes and cast NPC Contact. Also, I personally don't bother running to the far side for Waterfiends, unless the closer ones has to many people. However, in my experience, i've only ever had to go to the far side once. Actually, if you hit 50% of the time, you are still using the strength and attack bonus both 100% of the time. If you hit, your Strength level is going to 15% higher, not 7.5%. The 15% to Attack is in constant effect and you have a 15% higher attack not 7.5%. If it sends me of course i'll find my way back to path nearly all the time. If I can't, I just tele out and start again : . You could have used the home tele also. You 'break even' point was never gained by comparing the cannon to anything. Simply being that if you make 300k or less per hour, you can't regain what you lost in the additional time saved by using a cannon on Slayer. Anything over that and you can. So what you get with chinchompas has no affect on this. I'll give an example from Qeltar's rates of Aberrant Spectres. He got 182 kills without a cannon, and 390 with per hour. The usage of a cannon increased his rate by 114.3%. So on average, each task of Aberrant Spectres is completed in 46.7% of the time as without. So say you had a task of 182 of them, with no cannon it would take 60 minutes, with the cannon it would take 28 minutes. In that time he used up 1,103 cannonballs (46.7% of 2364, which is the amount used per hour). So he spent an additional 209,570 (at 190 each per cannonball, the mid price at the moment), to save 32 minutes. Assume the usage of a cannon uses up 2 minutes of his time during the task. So he has 30 minutes left to re-gain the lost money, which in this case is 419,140 per hour. If you can make over that amount, a cannon is worth using at Aberrant Spectres. As you can see, it has nothing to do with other methods of training range. I said that I used superhuman strength as a minimum. Not that I always use it. Why can't it be counted? Earlier on I was showing rates from Slayer with only superhuman strength compared to the Zombie Monkies piety. That was to show that even not using the best prayer, the rates are still high and rival the Monkies. The point is, there is some tasks I would never do without piety, otherwise they just aren't worth the extra time. Overall, say it is based on 52 to 96 Summoning, that requires 26,814 crimson charms. That means the average experience per crimson is 356.6 (you're not going to make Granite Lobsters all the way : ). With the gold charms, the Raw Bird Meat costs 69 mid price and it requires 12 Spirit Shards (worth 300). So it costs 369 for 68.4 experience, which is 5.4gp per experience. With Barker Toads you use 10 Spirit Shards (250) and Swamp Toads (283 each). You spend 533 for 86 experience, which is 6.2gp per experience. Barely any extra. However, overall you will need to collect more gold charms to get the same amount of experience as with Barker Toads. You need 32.5% more charms per hour for the same amount of experience. Say you get 132 gold charms in an hour. A person making Barker Toads gets to 100 and stops, it took him 45.5 minutes to get that many. It costs him an additional 4,592 gp for the seconds, and he has 14.5 minutes spare to regain this. So if you can make over 19k gp/h ( :lol: ) Barker Toads are more efficient. So yes, I believe the Barker Toads are worth it, and i've never had much trouble buying the Swamp Toads. I agree with the green one. With the Blue, not sure what number to use. Most people save them up till later for more experience, some use them early. I just based it on the level 79 Titans which are just short of 700, so 700 to be even.

Thanks for the link. The calculations themselves are correct. Some of the numbers you used were an average of what weltar got in 2 different methods, which is good, except for one task. For Spiritual mages you used 155 as an average, but in one of those tests he didn't use a pure set/zammy brew+super strength. So only the higher one (with zammy brew+super strength) should have been used. With the Bloodvelds, you got your numbers from Bloodvelds (sounds odd doesn't it? :? ). I got mine from Mutated Bloodvelds, the rate for those was alot higher. The Waterfiends number comes from Qeltar, but have said yourself that you get just short of 100 (actual) crimsons per hour, which is closer to about 120 kills. With the Warped Terrorbirds, I think it was just a typo, not on purpose. You used an average of 61, when the average was 91. Also I didn't use Black Dragons, because he didn't have the method I use (which is alot faster and more efficient). Baby Black Dragons are the best way to do that task in my opinion and it gets a higher experience rate also. So while there is nothing wrong with table itself, some of the numbers need to be fixed is all. I'm don't know how to pinpoint why Dust Devils are better experience. All I know is that they give great experience, so that makes them a task I always do. Once you grab the gear and potions, you tele, use the necklace on the bank deposit box and run to the whirlpool. You don't even have to bank if you don't want, and you could use it as your teleport in replace of a tab. That might even be the case. But if their Defence is high, a slight increase in attack will not have the biggest affect. Like at Mithril Dragons, the extra 15% from the Helm doesn't get you hitting much more often. If anything you want something in the middle of the Defence range. That way the increase in hitting is noticeable, and with the Helm you hit a decent amount higher. 1.3 is a bit much, but it has happened to me, but not that often. It has even randomly taken me to the next portal so I even get to the monster quicker sometimes : . I entered the west portal in the mummy room. Instead of taking me to the south-west portal in the zamorak monk room, it took me to the north-east one, which is the portal I would have used next. So I didn't have to run across the whole room :lol: . There also seems to be a limit to how far away they can send you. So you won't end up that far of course usually. The cannon wasn't being compared to chinchompas though. It was simply about how much you make per hour and the time lost being 2.5 minutes for 1,000 cannonballs. So the cost of training with chinchompas is irrelevant as it only comes down to whether the cannon is going to save you time and money or not. If you can make over 300k per hour, it saves time. If not, don't use a cannon. Technically i'm not changing prayers. I have always used piety on Skeletal Wyverns. If you get a task of these, try with piety and with superhuman strength, there is a huge difference. There was another person there killing them when I got there, I think he was around 120 or so. I was killing about 2-3 on average in the time it ook for him to kill 1. Some times I even got up to 4 kills before he managed it (I got lucky with a couple DDS specials, 29+7 then 37+36 :thumbsup: ). As I said, i've always used piety on this task. I also said that I use superhuman strength as a minimum, not that I use it on every task. Sometimes I may use ultimate strength or piety if I feel like it. I used piety on Nechryaels yesterday and was hitting up to 51 with Whip, a 129 there who was using a BGS kept going "omfg", was funny :lol: . Not what I meant. How much experience did you use for each gold, green, crimson and blue charm? You've said 10.2 gold is 2.1 crimsons, but what numbers did you use to get that? You got 13,574 Summoning experience from 42 crimsons, which is about 323 each. On the way to 96 Summoning from Slayer, the average experience is just over 350, so 350 for each is ideal. 21 level quotes :shock: . Geez, and I thought these posts were getting long.

The image doesn't show for me. If you can get it show i'll check it out. With your side you multiplied the strength bonus(?) by 20% I think it was. The Salve Ammy(e) affects your level not the bonus, as does the Slayer Helm. What I wear gives a +124 attack bonus, +125 strength bonus as well as the bonus from the Helm. With Salve Ammy it is +105 strength bonus and +102 attack bonus with the bonus from the Ammy. There is still a big difference in that. Also with the prayer and you saying you rarely hit, I think the answer is obvious : . It is because of piety you rarely hit. It gives a +23% attack bonus, so you will be hitting more often. You would have to test using superhuman strength for an easier comparison, then you won't have to try and adjust for the extra bonuses. It depends how you get there. Karamja Gloves 3 is the fastest way and I think that takes about 30-40 seconds. Not entirely sure but it is under a minute. It also takes only 1 minute or less to get to Waterfiends after you tele. You should try altering your bank set out then, trust me, it will help alot. I did :lol: . Though I started with page 6 which was when i started posting. I only read my posts though, because if I did say that, it would be in mine. So really it didn't take that long : . Ideally, you would have to actually test the difference in using Slayer Helm and prayer compared to without. There is no accurate way to say otherwise as it would affect different monsters by certain amounts. High Defence monsters won't have as big an increasecompared to say Dust Devils or Spiritual Mages. Cave Horrors used to be and so did Spiritual Warriors. Sumona still assigns them however. Chinning Nech's is more efficient at 1.5mil profit per hour I think it was :shock: . As for who provided them, i'd have to check again, but you could do that. As Zarfot mentioned a bit after this post, the little things add up : . Have a couple proselyte sets then also, that way they stay in the same spot each time when you bank. I organise my inventory also, but with how I do, it is already organised as I withdraw. With the Chaos tunnels, there is only ever 2 entrances I use. The one in level 4 wildy west of the Zamorak Mage, and the one in 13 wildy north-east of the Zamorak mage. The north-east goes to cave bugs, one teleport away from them is the Baby Black Dragons. The other entrance takes you to Gargoyles. Take the north-west portal twice, and you'll be Zamorak Monks, the north-east portal from there and at Dust Devils. If you take the portal north of that you are at Black Demons. Take the west portal from there and you are in with Bronze Dragons (so be careful) and Earth Warriors. Take the North to level 88 Dagannoths (use range prayer), and then the east portal takes you to Nechryaels. So effectively all those tasks arealong the same path, only have to remember the one way : . Also, if on Lunar, Suqahs are the fastest task to get to. Only inefficient at 300k or less per hour. With Aviansies it would be worth it though. It is worth using prayer. I got a few Ranarr and three Rune Chain's from that task, which more than payed for what I used : . I didn't bank either, but even with a familiar, that is still 80k experience which is very good. In this case, the task should really only be done with piety or not at all. The reason for it isn't just to hit higher, that extra Attack is vital to killing them at a decent speed. I also only used 11 (I think) Prayer potions for all 77. I included the bank trip I took during the task, and I don't time banking inbetween tasks (nor does Zarfot, so that still means I was close to his rate : ). Good luck with that, will take a long time. I also had a task of 163 Spiritual Mages today (no boots :( ), according to the timer on my Geyser Titan it took 33 minutes. That extrapolates to 22.2k Slayer experience per hour. Don't use that Link! I got a virus! Just kidding, it's safe so i'll vouch for it :lol: According to that table, you got 59.2k of just melee xp/h, so see, even the slower tasks are faster than what you said originally \ . If you factor Hitpoints experience in you would get to an overall experience per hour of 108,342. Out of curiosity, what numbers did you use for working out the Summoning experience? With what Inuashakent said about the spam pyramids, my posts are usually long, but that is why I cut the quotes down all the time.

I'm not maxed stats remember ;) .So not achieveing, but you can't deny that it is close. I even just had a task of 186 Abbreannt Spectres, took me 21 mins. Just did a task of 151 Bloodveld, took me 31 mins. The Spectres averages out to 47.8k Slayer xp per hour. The Bloodvelds averages out to 54.4k Slayer xp/h. Hell, my task of Aberrant Spectres was faster than what it says in Zarfot's guide : . The Bloodvelds I was switching between piety and superhuman strength. So yes, those rates are achieveable (and beatable :lol: ). Not much I can add on to what Zarfot said either. I have simply been trying to show overall, Slayer is more efficient than Zombie Monkies, doesn't mean everyone has to do it though. I also just got this from the Bloodveld task :thumbsup: :

I posted the exact number of kills per hour he can get, and the hitpoints of the monsters. Those would also have been the numbers you yourself would have used. So unless I somehow misplaced a decimal or something i've shown what he got, and it was just short of 60k (without the three cannon ones). So please go back to that sort of table thing I posted and let me know if there was an error. If there isn't, then it is indeed just short of 60k. Bandos > Proselyte Fire Cape > Trimmed Cape Defender > Unholy Book Slayer Helm+Fury = Salve Ammy(e)+Helm of Neitiznot I think I have the better equipment at the moment : . We went through this before, 1 Attack level and 4 Strength isn't that much better (You don't use Defence at Monkies). Maybe the reason they are better experience is simply because they are a better monster to train on. They don't hit that often, and with the Slayer Helmet their low Defence is very noticeable. It doesn't take 6 minutes to get to Waterfiends. Try putting all of your Slayer equipment in the one tab in your bank. Also try to line certain items up that go together. Also have more than one of each item where possible to keeps its place in the bank. I personally have 2 Whips, 2 Pairs of Dragon Boots, 2 "barrows" gloves, multiple Defenders, multiple Fire Capes, a few DDS' and many other items on the top row of that tab. In nearly every task I use that equipment and is very easy to get out. Things like Karils, Bandos, Fury, Slayer Helm, DFS, are all at the bottom of the tab, and also are not difficult to find and get out. I found where I mentioned BOBs, this was what I has said: [hide=Quote] [/hide] As you see, I mentioned they could be used, but never that I use them. Nor did I say that between your inventory and a BOB you could pick up all the drops. I checked through the thread, I never even mentioned BOBs again after that. So umm... what problem? In some cases on Qeltar's numbers the difference in using the Slayer Helmet to without was almost a 15% increase in speed. So unless it takes 9 minutes to bank (when on average it is 1/3 of that), I think that Slayer Helmet bonuses make up for the banking. You've got to be kidding.... he probably would? His guide on Runecrafting is quite extensive and his efficiency rate there is very high. You admit that following what he does you get within half a dozen seconds of his times. His Thieving guide is also extensive and details the high rates for Thugs, many people have replied back with similar results. There is even a guide about that training method on these forums (suspiciously close to Zarfots explanation also : ). He wrote mini-guides to how he trained each other skill to 99 in his thread that was in the Goals & Achievements forums. I even copied them all into a Word doc :lol: . He has videos detailing his experience rates in those skills. So now I ask you, if he can do all that for every other skill, without lying or exaggerating... why would he do it for Slayer? That makes no sense what so ever. Again I ask, what would he have to gain if he did? Try and follow his methods like his Runecrafting guide and you will notice a significant increase in your experience per hour. Also note that some of the guides for each task weren't even his. The Spiritual Mages and Warriors (Warriors from when Duradel still assigned them), Cave Horrors and chinning Nechryaels came from other players. So yes, those rates are achieveable by other people. Refer to the first thing I quoted this post. Check the numbers in the table I provided. There were no mistakes. Sure (it wasn't Scabarites though :-# ). Here they are: Goraks Spiritual Mages Warped Terrorbirds Actually, he didn't compare it to ayn other method of training Range. He determined if it was worth it because they hardly add any time, and that shooting approximately 1000 cannonballs uses up 2.5 mins (overall time to set up and refill). If you value time at only 500k an hour, it is equivalent to 57k Range and 28k Slayer experience per hour. If you value your time at 1mil per hour, then it is equivalent to 104k Range xp/h and 56k Slayer xp/h. Just because another way to train Range exists, doesn't have any impact on the efficiency of a cannon. Why? Because you are still going to average the same amount of experience per cannonball on average and they will still cost about the same. They will still only use a very little amount of time. Well that is because the average crimsons per hour hour isn't 27. Using Qeltars rates the drop rate was 39.6, or 40 crimsons per hour (equivalent to, not actually 40 crimsons). Keep in mind I stated the average was 55 (not 58) and you said it was 8. So 55-40 = 15, 40-8 = 32. Keep in mind my rate was based on slayer and facts, not made up. Qeltar was without Slayer and not training as efficiently as possible, so yes, the rate is higher still on Slayer. Put simply, the Defender has +11 extra to the Attack bonus, so it is more accurate. The Defender also has +5 extra Strength bonus, so you can hit highee. How does it not average more experience per hour? Again as I said, it comes down to only the saving on prayer potions. I'll go back and test the rates once more with a HP Cape, Unholy Book, and using the SGS for specials. But even now I can see the usage of prayer potions exceeding 8 per hour. So you were trying to use my methods, while on standard mage... I use Lunar. Ring of wealth wouldn't have affected experience, but it would have affected average profit per hour, whereas Ring of life is useless here. My inventory for these consists of House tabs (I have these on every task and I always withdraw 10, so they are alrways already in my inventory), a Holy Wrench (also already in my inventory), SGS (already in inven, I grab my Lunar Staff and Rope, 2000 cannonballs and the 3 cannon pieces. Depending on task number either 1 or 2 super sets, 1 superantipoison(+), around 3 prayer potions, I usually use a Unicorn here also since a combat won't help too much as the Kalphites die to quick. Finally 1-2 super energies and the rest food. All of those items for me come from 2 different tabs only. The gear you wear barely ever changes. I might have to switch to a Defender from a DFS, or Bandos from Karils. It really does come down to practice as well as an organised bank. In the 70k per hour, he was referring to melee XP. Why you are even trying to argue over this tiny point (my post saying what Inuashakent said) is beyond me. Couple posts ago he then said Zarfot wasn't exaggerating, so i'll just ignore this now : . I didn't ignore the rates, but if a task of 164 Kalphites takes you almost an hour, you are going very fast at all. Try using a cannon, it will significantly increase the speed of this task. You didn't come close to Zarfot's because you didn't use a cannon. Yesterday I had a task of 156 Black Demons. I got there and summoned my Geyser Titan, I was using superhuman strength and pure sets every 10 mins. My Titan ran out of time and disappeared so I summoned another straight away (I has swapped 1 prayer potion for a super restore as it restores summoning points). I finished the task with 66 minutes remaining on the 2nd one. Overall the task took 72 minutes and I got 24,492 Slayer experience. 72/60 = 1.2, 24,492/1.2 = 20,410 Slayer experience in one hour. That is over 80k experience. I also had a task of 77 Skeletal Wyverns, when I got there I summoned my Unicorn, I also used piety throughout the task (trust me, this task is a great one for piety). I ran out of supplies and only had a few to go, so I quickly banked and came back. My Unicorn ran out of time, and I think it was 2 or 3 Whip hits after that I killed the Skeletal Wyvern, and task finished. Now these guys have 200 Hitpoints, but give 210 Slayer experience. Therefore I got 16,170 Slayer experience in 54 minutes, which is 17,967 Slayer experience per hour. I also got 61,600 melee experience in 54 minutes, which is 68,444 experience per hour. The 2nd slowest task (other than Mithril Dragons), that I haven't blocked was getting 68k experience per hour, with a bank trip during the task even. So yes, I do believe your Slayer rates are indeed quite low. Also Note Zarfot gets 22k Slayer experience per hour at Black Demons (I was only 2k less) and he gets about 19k at Skeletal Wyverns, which includes one bank per task (I was only 1k less). So yes, his rates aren't impossible to achieve, you just have to be willing to follow his advice.

When I mentioned Zarfot's guides, those were for the other skills he didn't have 99 in on his way to 2376 total. I mentioned that for a reason, and i'll say why furthur on in the post. People are getting my rates, regardless of what you think. Please also explain how yours are generally accepted (when i've yet to see someone agree that 45k is the maximum average) at 45k per hour when even Qeltar gets up to 60k without Slayer. He also got that without stat enhancing prayer. So no, yours aren't actually generally accepted. You very rarely miss... do you see how vague that is. With Slayer Helmet on Dust Devils don't you also "very rarely miss"? No-one other than those who work at Jagex can actually say with 100% certaining which has the higher/lower defence. It isn't impossible. Mine wasn't counting banking or setting up and was also effectively continous combat. Just because it is higher than what you got doesn't make it impossible. Actually you'll find you verified nothing. Read through and then tell me where it says I use them : . While this has no impact on what we are talking about, I don't like people saying I have said or done things when I haven't (which you continously do). I said that they can be used, not that I use them. 22 different monsters means 22 hours, not 32. It doesn't even out over all monsters if he has each rate for each monster being inaccurate (inaccurate+inaccurate =/= accurate : ). Qeltar has tested efficiently each monster while on Slayer? I didn't know he updated his database between when I last posted and now. The videos from Zarfot I mentioned above comes to this point here. While some people may enjoy lying, this isn't one of those cases. On his way to 99 in every skill he wrote mini guides to how he trained, he has comprehensive guides on 3 of those skills, he even has some videos showing how he did train. Now after all that effort, all his numbers in every other guide non-exaggerated, would he lie about Slayer? http://www.youtube.com/tofraz That is his channel. While he doesn't have a video detailing his Slayer rates, it is just there to give a general idea of how he does the task. There is no reason to take them out. However I did, and guess what? I still got just over 14k Slayer xp per hour, which is 56k melee experience. Isn't it odd how based on the same numbers, the numbers are different... couldn't possibly be you being biased though and purposely dropping the rates though. Those 3 tasks which "he didn't show"... he did show. They were just in a different section that was all, I hasn't realsied that at first, but after I found them I added them in. Using a cannon doesn't matter. All that shows is that overall, you'll get more experience per hour with a cannon than without. Err... what? You keep forgetting that using a cannon is effectively no time lost. It is addition to what you get by meleeing. The point of me mentioning the Aviansies is that if you need more than 300k profit per hour for the cannon to be worth it, by using Aviansies as your money maker, it is worth using. It has nothing to do without chinchompas, so i've no idea why you mentioned them. I never said 58 crimsons per hour. Pray tell how 8 rather than '58' is closer to 55. I must be bad at maths cause I can't see how 8 is closer. The only difference in equipment was I used a Fire Cape compared to the Hipoints Cape, I used a Rune Defender and a DDS for specials not the SGS. You'll also find the Zamorak Book isn't best. Compared to the Defender, you are less accurate and hit lower. That reduces your experience rate in order to save a bit on prayer. Also with the Cape, based on attack bonuses, I have a higher chance to hit (if only slightly), can hit higher but at a loss of 2 prayer bonus. However with the SGS instead the Prayer used would indeed by less but not by alot. If I used 3.25 prayer pots in 10 minutes 10 seconds, that equates to 19.25 prayer potions per hour. So unless over the course of an hour the SGS saves you 11.25 prayer potions you are more than likely lying again. What is even more disturbing is you even saying you use 8 per hour. 8*7,534 = 60,272 gp for just the Prayer potions, the pure sets adds about 7.4k per hour Geyser Titan's last 69 minutes and cost 3,392 each so that adds another 3k per hour. That is over 70k loss per hour yet you said it was only 40k. At least we finally got you to admit you were lying about one of the rates (even though the loss is still greater than that from what i've seen). Dragonfire Shield and a Defender? Ok thats odd. Torags for tanking? and yet you also brought a Unicorn. A Unicorn provides more than enough healing even with Bandos armour. Ring of Life is useless, should at least use a Ring of Wealth. 6.5 minutes on average. You said you got them 2 in a row, you would already have on the right equipment, and the potions/food don't take long to get out. Tele to Duradel, I though you said you use NPC Contact (it is the most efficient way to train Slayer). It is also easier to use the BIQ fairy ring to get there. You also didn't use a cannon, you would have found it overal far more efficient to use it than to not. I'm not saying he's exaggerating, but it is definetely at LEAST very hard to achieve his rates. I even said he's not exaggerating. Seriously, he calls "distractions" 1% every hour, which translates into 30 seconds/hour. Seriously, when I'm "distracted" I lose... 20 minutes per hour? :lol: (Obviously most people don't get distracted this much. ;) ) When I posted that I was responding to compfreak847. Compfreak847 insisted that Zarfot was either lying or exaggerating to make himself appear better. Compfreak847 even said that you were saying Zarfot was exaggerating, yet your reply says that you don't. So again compfreak847 made another mistake to further try and back up his point. This at least shows proof that compfreak847 was yet again wrong.

But again we can't be sure how much faster experience the Slayer Helmet gives. You showed on gargoyles that he went only 6.5% fastest with than without. On kalphites he went almost 15% faster with than without. I don't use proselyte unless I am using a protection prayer and I don't ever use Veracs for Slayer. I wear bandos and use the +10% strength prayer. Increased eating for what though? Eating is faster than using Guthans to heal. Next part is based on no logic... he is 92 slayer so therefore he must be more efficient than the average high level slayer? Upon what reasoning did you get that conclusion. People can train inefficiently and still get high Slayer levels. So you dodge the question without answering it. The same reason everyone else does, and that reason is? What does he have to gain by lying? Why didn't he lie for his other two guides? Why didn't he lie in his little mini guides for the other skills when he was maxing out all his stats? Why do his videos on youtube confirm what he says? You see now why I didn't want to test it? Because of my "supposedly timed" task of Dust Devils. You'll use any excuse to try and make your point. You'll trust Qeltar's numbers for whatever reason providing as much evidence as I did, but since I said mine, mine must be wrong... ok then... In that case we can you again lied to try and make your point more valid. Only losing 40k per hour at Zombie Monkies while using piety and melee protect? I went there yesterday to test the rate, I was following Muggi's guide from these forums, but I was using the +10% strength prayer. I started my timer as soon as I started attacking. After 10 minutes they stopped, I tele'd away came back. That 'round' took me 11 minutes and 1 second, but simply 11 minutes will do. I gained around 16.5k experience (no familiar), which extrapolates to 90k per hour. I used 1 prayer pot (4) in that time as well as 1 dose of a pure set and the other little things used. I extrapolated the loss to 50k per hour, with piety it would have been more. Also the bonus of the Salve Ammy isn't better than the Slayer Helm. The ammy combined with a Helm of Neitiznot is about equal to a Slayer Helmet and a Fury. Who said there was an error? Zombie Monkies more than likely have higher defence than Dust Devils. How about you actually test Dust Devils while on Slayer yourself, rather than simply complaining. You won't trust anything but your made up rates, so why don;t you test it yourself without skewing the results like you have done so with just about every other rate so far. How do you know it is 8%? It doesn't matter anyway because what I was saying was based on Slayer. If you got a Slayer task of them, are you going to grab Karils, "barrows" gloves and a Slayer Helmet, or Void melee? That was the point I was making. While on Slayer for these I use a Saradomin Godsword, a Unicorn, I don't use protect from range and I use superhuman strength. I get about 100 crimsons per hour as well as the other colour charms which is about equivalent to another 9-10 crimsons meaning I was getting about 110 per hour while on Slayer. I could obviously go faster with a Saradomin Sword, better stats and also using Piety. Yes I did comment on not alching during the task (which you yourself admit to not alching either). I said something along the lines of BOBs can be used to get extra food, I didn't mention that between inven and BOB you would have plenty of space (but you would). 32 hours is irrelvant however. Care to guess as to why? Could it be that simply it still remains to be only 1 hour to each monster? 32 hours, and 4000 kills, 1 hour of which to different Slayer tasks (duradel only has 24, and he doesn't have rates for a few of them, so it isn't really 32 hours. Again you try to make up numbers to show your side). Have I not mentioned several times while I don't get his rates, I do get close. Wow, you really are trying hard to ignore what shows you are wrong. That test With Dust Devils did show the rate I was getting, I could do tests on every other Slayer Monster if you like.... but then again, you would make up some excuse again as to why you want them to be wrong. Impossibly hard to obtain... the answer is actually no. Exaggerations... answer is also no. Inuashakent stating that doesn't make it true either. Please show us where he actually has purposely exaggerated to make the rate higher for absolutely no gain he would receive. I'm not questioning Inuashakent's method of Slayer or such, just simply your interpretation. I always used the kills per hour that he got when he wasn't getting the bonus of the Slayer Helmet/Black Mask. Also for all the rates he had, only 3 of those I used he had used a cannon on. Trumpeting what fact? I was just explaining how I got the numbers I did... you see, what I do is I show how I got the numbers whilst you just make them up, see the difference? I also see you neglected to mention the rate I got from Qeltar (who you admit is oh so accurate), and that it was higher than what you got. Monster - Hitpoints - Kills Per hour - Slayer xp/h Aberrant Spectres - 90 - 390 - 35,100 Abyssal Demons - 150 - 91 - 13,650 Black Demons - 157 - 98 - 15,386 Bloodvelds - 186 - 88 - 16,368 Dagannoths - 70 - 189 - 13,230 Dark Beasts - 220 - 63 - 13,860 Dust Devils - 105 - 151 - 15,855 Fire Giants - 111 - 143 - 15,873 Gargoyles - 105 - 129 - 13,545 Greater Demons - 87 - 165 - 14,355 Hellhounds - 116 - 126 - 14,616 Iron Dragons - 165 - 63 - 10,395 Kalphites - 90 - 320 - 28,800 Mithril Dragons - 254 - 20 - 5,080 Nechryaels - 105 - 122 - 12,810 Skeletal Wyverns - 200 - 53 - 10,600 Steel Dragons - 210 - 30 - 6,300 Suqahs - 108 - 134 - 14,472 Waterfiends - 128 - 94 - 12,032 The next ones I had forgot to add in because they weren' in the table I was looking at. Goraks - 112 - 129 - 14,448 Spiritual Mages - 85 - 169 - 14,365 Warped Terrorbirds - 150 - 99 - 14,850 So what does all that average out to? 14,817 experience per hour. That was with no Slayer Helmet, only 3 of those involved a cannon, no stat enhancing prayers and worse equipment. That is also 59.2k melee xp/h, on Slayer that is only going to get higher. Now you say that Zarfot says at only 300k an hour, that cannon isn't worth it. Hey, isn't it you that has been saying it is 400k profit per hour at Avaiansies, how convenient. Regardless, it still has an effect as faster kills = higher rates (amazing how that works isn't it?). What skewed my results?!?! You have been the only one making up numbers and having the results skewed. You go on and on about Qeltar not even get 1/3 or whatever of Zarfots, as you said his averaged out to 47.5k... woopsie that was made up. You say Zombie Monkies only loses 40k an hour... woopsie another error. Slayer averages 8 crimsons per hour!... look at that, another mistake based on no rational logic. Shall I continue? -EDIT I just went back and tested the prayer drain with piety and protect from melee at zombie Monkies. I used up 13 doses of prayer during the perios in which they were aggressive. So: 13 doses of Prayer potion - 7,534*3.25 = 24,485 1 dose Pure set - 1,058+195 = 1,253 Amount of money spent in one hour - 25,738/0.1694444 = 151,896 Having proof that your an idiot - priceless Had to say it sorry :

You still aren't understanding this at all. I don't see where you get "even adjusted for slayer". There are so many things that can be done to speed up tasks. Equipment, cannon (and even if Qeltar used a cannon sometimes, was it in the best spot?), using stat enhancing prayers, was he paying attention and moving between kills as fast as he can? Did he pick up drops without slowing down attack speed? Did he eat or pot whilst attacking so as to provide little to no less in spped (little lost with food, none for pots)? Umm right. Didn't I just say while I don't get his rates I do get close? What possible benefit could he have to lie about it or exaggerate, and you can't hack Runescape. He just aims to give you a guide about the most efficient ways to train (same as his other two guides). Although I don't think you believe he is lting either, but since you can't attain his rates, you try to discredit him. So by your first sentence we see that you only ever use Void when it isn't for Slayer correct? If you aren't doing Slayer and are wearing Karils, are you still going to wear the Slayer Helmet... I think not. That extra +3 prayer bonus comes from the Helm of Neitiznot. Fiddle-faddle? Keep in mind (which in every case i've shown you cease to see), that it isn't 144 crimsons. It is the equivalent of 144 crimsons. Tell me, how much testing have you done while actually on Slayer using the Slayer Helmet? Actually, that was for many tasks. His tests for Nechryaels was in the Slayer Tower. Also much more spread out and single combat. Again you missed something very important. I said this only in the case of Gargoyles due to their closeness. I said that if need be it would be faster than Guthans.... but I also said that in most cases you would never run out of food anyway. When did I state that I take BOBs anyway? I remember saying that on the Dust Devils one I think that the rate was without a combat familiar. I also said that if you needed more room for food you could take a BOB, that was the only time I have ever mentioned them. Zarfot in some cases also said how much experience he gets with a summon included, so yes, there is rates for those also. The +4 strength bonus isn't just irrelevant because you don't use it at one. Also by the way i'm just curious, at Zombie Monkies do you use piety or what other stat enhancing prayer? Between 100-200 isn't "HUNDREDS of kills". But would you not say that thousands is more accurate over the long run.... you know... like what Zarfot's are based on. Just because someone has 92 Slayer doesn't mean they instantly are being most efficient with their tasks. Also you need to stop saying no-one else gets near Zarfot's rates, they do, but you just seem to ignore that. Now I thought we were going to come back to this. While Qeltar may be trusted to perform tests. You are certainly not trusted to come to conclusions about them. You mentioned that from Qeltars numbers you got 47.2k xp/h. Well that alone shows you can't be trusted. I put the amount of kills he got in an hour (The ones without Black Mask/Slayer Helmet), as well as the Hitpoints of the monster into a spreadsheet. Added a formula and found out the experience (for Slayer), he would get per task. I then found the average. The average was 14,887 experience per hour. If you multiply that by 4 you get 59,548 experience per hour. Keep in mind that is with no stat enhancing prayers, no Slayer Helmet, and not always using the most efficient methods. Amazing how again you say Qeltars results wouldn't be skewed, but you made sure they were. Also note that all the rates I took were without a cannon except for on Kalphites, Aberrant Spectres (for this one I don't know if he was on Slayer or not, I think not since he was wearing a Salve ammy (e) also) and Skeletal Wyverns. Also I never said that because he wasn't wearing a Fire Cape that his equipment was complete garbage... you could try and find a quote where I did say that, but that would be impossible. Equipment is also not just limited to the cape slot (amazing I know). As for your subtraction... well lets see. Armour... doesn't cost anything technically. Zarfot either wears proselyte or Bandos armour I believe. Since anyone could buy the armour and resell after their done, it doesn't really have a cost. Pots might add up to about 5mil. 5,000 Prayer pots is about 37.5mil and the cannonballs, I don't know how many he used. Put simply as mmmchips1 said, there are other drops than Whips, Dark Bows, and Dragon Boots. Rune items over time will add up to over 10mil. Special drops like Mauls and Mystic will add up. Herbs add up, as do seeds. Then things like half keys, dragon drops and all these other alchable drops will add up. Put simply, that was indeed the overall experience rate he got per hour on average as well as the profit. I don't see how you can argue that with only 76 Slayer either. You are just past 1/13th of the way through the skill so of course you haven't gotten alot of drops yet.

Zarfots exaggeration? Those were indeed the numbers he got, while I personally do not get them, I do get close. Maybe if you read his guide properly, tried to follow what he suggests, you also will get faster rates. If they're far above anything anyone else gets, doesn't that suggest that his methods are better than what others use? So why not try using. Void has: +91 Crush Attack Bonus +111 Mage Defence Bonus +113 Range Defence Bonus +152 Strength Bonus +15 Prayer bonus Karils has: +103 Crush Attack Bonus +135 Mage Defence Bonus +158 Range Defence Bonus +167 Strength Bonus +18 Prayer bonus Can't really say which is better in terms of kills. As for cost, prayer drains slower with Karils, Karils has higher defences (so less food used), so I don't see how Void can be cheaper. Danger? Void has lower defences, you have a higher chance of dieing with that compared to Karils. Either way it is irrelevant as it isn't on Slayer. On Slayer Karils is definately better due to the Slayer Helmet. Five minutes is indeed generous seeing as the average is three. But now you are going to base your calculations on you purposely going slower? Well that is helpful. The "spread outishness" of tasks does have an effect on the expereince rates. Simply because you have to run further between monsters, it takes longer on average than if you don't have to move, would you not agree? That is the case with killing Gargoyles in the Chaos Tunnels. Guthans is slower than using food. With food the time lost to eating is small, and you are consistantly training with a better weapon. With Guthans you have to switch to a slower and weaker weapon that isn't even guaranteed to heal. You also during that time lose out on the +2 prayer bonus of the Saradomin Sword (or +8 of the Godsword). The reason I haven't put in familiars for alot of them was to show how fast they are even without them. The fact that they can be used for many tasks that Qeltar doesn't use for speeds up experience rates on average. The +4 strength bonus will allow you to hit one higher. That is more effective than a +2 prayer bonus which Qeltar doesn't even use. Keep in mind the Fire Cape also has +1 to attack bonuses and an extra +2 to defence bonus (minimal, but still better). No, the majority (by majority I mean every single one), comes off of 1 hour tests. He tests how many he kills for one hour with certain gear and that is it. That isn't accurate in the long run. The reason I said hundreads of monster is because that is what you said (quote from page9): So no, I didn't mean over hundreds of hours, I did indeed mean hundreds of kills. A small one hour test will not give completely accurate results. Again you mention Zarfots numbers are higher than Qeltars and yours. Qeltar wasn't doing Slayer for a start. It is also quite easily possible that Zarfot uses better methods is it not? But it isn't. Every single time you see something which shows you are wrong "I believe that is downright impossible, therefore it must be". Yes those are indeed the exact rates Zarfot got. Isn't it amazing when there is accurate results, which shows yours are incredibly low, that is all of a sudden wrong? That money came from overall all the drops he picked up over the course of 520 hours, that is a much more accurate and better test than your made up numbers which have been based on nothing. That amount of experience comes from overall. That is Slayer, Attack, Strength, Defence, Hitpoints, Range and Summoning. I would also say that Qeltar's "highly respected testing skill and methodology" is infact not so much correct. Doing only a one hour test only does not provide anything close to an average. His methods of killed are slower, he wasn't on Slayer, he wasn't using stat enhancing prayers, uses worse equipment and you wonder why his rates are low? And finally, during the 13.8mil Slayer experience that Zarfot got, he gained "no fewer than 20 whips, 20 dark bows and 60 dragon boots when getting the slayer xp I needed for 99 summoning." At current prices that is at least 70mil from just those three different items.