qeltar

Relevance = ? The reason why there is too much supply and not enough demand is that the prices are too high and sellers can't lower them. Why is that so difficult for some people to understand? I can only sell calquat seeds for 38k or whatever. If I could sell them for 29k or so, they'd have been sold hours ago. Is this really hard to understand? I don't get it. And that's the entire basis of my article, and why this exchange isn't nearly as good as it could have been - Jagex is mucking with supply and demand.

This comparison is not valid because those are unique, one-of-a-kind items, so each must be matched up with a specific buyer who will appreciate its characteristics. Calquat seeds are not unique; one calquat seed is the same as the next (a concept called "fungibility"). Therefore, if the market is set up properly, they are easy to sell. That's only true if the prices are close to the real market price. No, because this system doesn't work properly. If Jagex weren't trying to control prices, I could sell them in 5 seconds right now -- just as I could sell them in 5 seconds on the forums.

To avoid price manipulation. Read the update. It wasn't any more necessary to set a 5% trading range and 24 hour updates to stop price manipulation than it was necessary to limit stakes to 3k to stop RWT. It's about control.

Fredz, if you are studying economics, I would think you should be able to come up with some logical counter-arguments to my article, rather than just hand-waving it off with some (very bad :) ) guesses as to my political beliefs. mchainmail, as Dragonlordjl said, I suggested a wider cap and more frequent updates. But take a step back... why do we need price controls at all? Have we had them in World 2 or the forums? Nope. So why are they needed here?

Thanks for the comments. A few quick responses... EugenyG: You're astute, and probably right in several regards. I suppose that I prefer to give benefit of the doubt rather than assuming everything Jagex does is about grabbing power, but perhaps I am just more naive than I should be. I know that I'm a gadfly and that Jagex likely doesn't care about my views and would prefer that I disappear, but that's not going to make me do it. fighterhwk: Valid point, but large fluctuations will create the very instability they claim to want to avoid. Peronix, Triforceelf and Danqazmlp: If you notice in the article I mention examples of shortages and lines. They are caused by the price controls. The only reason anyone has to wait for hours to sell nats or calquat seeds is because there aren't enough buyers. It's the exact same situation as the gas shortages, only in reverse. So this doesn't negate my point, it reinforces it. In a healthy, functional market you can sell nearly any common item in a few seconds. That's what I had hoped the GE would be, instead of the cumbersome nuisance it is now because of Jagex's desire to control the market.

Many RS kids seem to ignore that fact. Probably because it's silly. There's not much point in having a discussion board if every time someone raises a valid complaint about something, they get a response of "nobody is forcing you to use it". :roll:

I've been posting articles here for a while, and people like them. I copied the entire article here so nobody even has to click through to my site. If you think I've done something wrong, then feel free to take it up with the Tip.It mods -- they make the rules.

(Originally published on TruthScape and copied here in full for the benefit of the Tip.It community and to spur discussion.) The TruthScape Soapbox - Issue #3 - Sorry, Comrade, but Price Controls DonÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t Work Published: November 26, 2007 Today Jagex released the Grand Exchange (GE), a new method of buying and selling RuneScape items that was much anticipated by many players. I plan to write a full report on the exchange, but have decided that I should wait until later this week to publish it. There are two main reasons for this. First, I want to wait until the usual initial period of excitement settles down, so I can observe the price changing mechanisms in the GE in action. Second, I anticipate that the GE will be the subject of a fair bit of tweaking by Jagex over the next few days. What I want to talk about now, though, is one aspect of the new exchange that I find rather disappointing. This has nothing to do with the exchange itself, really; itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s not about its mechanisms or how it works. Rather, it has to do with JagexÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s questionable decision to use the GE to implement controls on the RuneScape market. While I can understand that there are valid reasons for trying to limit the freedom of the marketplace in the game, I think that the effort being made here largely limits the effectiveness of the Grand Exchange, and will create more problems than it solves. The Law of Supply and Demand Cannot be Repealed The idea behind the Grand Exchange is excellent: an efficient marketplace where you can list offers to buy or sell items, with the game taking care of the transaction for you automatically. In my tests, I found that the GE is a superb way of buying certain less common items that are difficult to find using conventional trading means. It also lets you easily sell a large number of a particular type of item to many buyers, or buy a large quantity from many sellers, without the need for world hopping or many trades. Unfortunately, though, IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve only actually been able to buy and sell about 10-15% of the items I wanted to trade. The other items I have had listed with buy or sell offers for many hours, but no transactions ever take place. IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ve had these calquat tree seeds on the GE, offered at the lowest possible price, for hours. The trading range hasnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t budged, so I simply cannot sell them. Not much of a marketplace. The reason for this is not a flaw in the Grand Exchange, but rather with JagexÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s decision to implement price controls within the GE. Simply put, Jagex maintains ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬Åmarket priceÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

Most merchanting is a form of what is called "arbitrage", which means taking advantage of price differences between two markets. For example, people used to buy some items in f2p because they were cheaper there and sell on p2p, or they'd buy in w2 and sell on the forums, etc. If Jagex hadn't ruined the GE with its silly price controls, then the market would always reflect the current market value of items. People would be able to easily buy and sell items and many would stop using other markets. As it stands now, the new system restricts people from setting prices, which causes differentials in supply and demand. Merchants can easily monitor items that are being restricted to unrealistic prices and move quantities of goods between the GE and other markets. Price controls don't work. I'll have an article on this shortly.

How can setting hard +/-5% price ranges on every item not be "controlling the market"? :lol:

Merchanting is dead... :evil: On the contrary. Jagex's decision to artificially restrict the free market will make merchanting very profitable. It's going to have the exact opposite of the intended effect.

:lol: Nobody wants to buy it *because* the price is too high. Don't you get that? Most items that have a value will sell for some amount if the buyer and seller can agree on a price. When a third party (Jagex) jumps in and says "no you cannot sell for that price" then the transaction never happens. And that's what Jagex has done here.

Yes, it does. In fact, that's the only reason things aren't selling -- Jagex has controlled prices. Are you taking the piss? Stop stating things as fact when there is no proof to support said claims, THAT IS CHILDISH. There's no proof that Jagex is controlling prices on the GE? :lol: Okay, why don't you log in and try to sell a shark for 1k? Or buy one for 500 gold? I've got a d left half I'd like to sell but the GE says it is worth 700k so who's going to buy it? In free markets, prices adjust to balance buyers and sellers. In controlled markets, buyers and sellers mostly sit around unable to transact. That's what we have here. Stop being deliberately obtuse, OF COURSE Jagex are controlling prices in the GE, my problem is you saying things aren't selling because of these price ranges. You're just trying to spark arguments now. I'm not being obtuse, because I am correct. The ONLY reason that items are not selling is because of the price controls. If not for the controls, prices would drop and items would sell. Nobody wants them at the lowest price Jagex is willing to let them bid on them. If not for that restriction, you'd have the option to sell them for a lower price.

Yes, it does. In fact, that's the only reason things aren't selling -- Jagex has controlled prices. Are you taking the piss? Stop stating things as fact when there is no proof to support said claims, THAT IS CHILDISH. There's no proof that Jagex is controlling prices on the GE? :lol: Okay, why don't you log in and try to sell a shark for 1k? Or buy one for 500 gold? I've got a d left half I'd like to sell but the GE says it is worth 700k so who's going to buy it? In free markets, prices adjust to balance buyers and sellers. In controlled markets, buyers and sellers mostly sit around unable to transact. That's what we have here.

Yes, it does. In fact, that's the only reason things aren't selling -- Jagex has controlled prices.

I know well enough that I have a bunch of items that have been sitting offered for sale at the lowest possible price, that haven't sold and the price hasn't changed. Well, yeah. The mechanism, whatever it is, changes the price every day. If after a few days (or even tomorrow) that prices in the GE have remained completely out of whack with actual market prices, then perhaps your complaint has merit. Until then, this is a new system undergoing a shakedown and getting rid of the last few remaining bugs, and I see no reason to crucify it just because it didn't get rid of the kinks fast enough. I'm not crucifying it, I'm pointing out the problems. That's part of what discussing new updates is about. If you think reading endless "woo gf Jagex" comments is more enlightening, that's your choice.

I know well enough that I have a bunch of items that have been sitting offered for sale at the lowest possible price, that haven't sold and the price hasn't changed. Of course.. Jagex would never do anything foolish, like say, putting in an assist system for fishing, or restricting staking to 3k. ;)

But the market isn't unresponsive...it will adjust to trading or non-trading trends on the market. I don't see what your point is. The GE system is unresponsive because prices change too infrequently. This means that most of the time the prices that we are forced to use in the GE will not match real market prices, which will make it harder to buy and sell than it should be, and will just make more profit opportunities for merchants who move items between the GE and the forums/w2.

Okay, I guess that was a bit over the top. :) What YOU fail to think about is that my issue is not with the current prices but rather with the mechanism. It is unresponsive and unresponsive markets lead to arbitrage and other problems. It's not a few prices, it is most prices. And yes, some will correct themselves, but others will correct only partially only to whipsaw back and forth as supply and demand change. All of it is unnecessary. Why not let the market speak?

I'm not nailing any coffins. I am saying that I am disappointed that Jagex has hampered something I really looked forward to because it insists on playing price police instead of giving players the FREEDOM to choose for themselves what prices will be. At the very least, the ranges should have been made much wider at first so that people could actually sell things. Right now most items simply do not sell.

I'm not bashing it, I am simply stating some simple facts. It doesn't matter that the first update hasn't happened yet. The problem is in the infrequency of the updates and the too-narrow price ranges. jessy87: I just tried listing a d left half for sale. Some Jagex 'market expert' decided that this is worth 700k, so the lowest I can list it for is 665k. How long do you think it will take until it sells? ;)

And I had 200 bowstrings up there for 3 hours at the same price and they didn't sell at all.

With all due respect, have you actually tried selling things on this? The vast MAJORITY of items do not sell because the prices are wrong. What you and others don't seem to understand is that markets that take days to respond to market trends fail. I certainly have no interest in dealing with this idiocy when I can just sell for the price I want on the forums.

I don't think pointing out that a market feature doesn't actually work is 'nitpicking'. False. They most definitely are controlling prices by not allowing people to buy and sell at the prices they wish to. I can do that on the forums. Why not here? "At first"? The prices haven't changed once since this was released. And they could have simply let the market decide on the market price instead of trying to guess -- which never works.

Well, except for the fact that it's almost impossible to sell anything, it's perfect. ;) I don't see how its impossible to sell anything if you don't be an idiot and sell for the highest possible price. If you do that you should know that you won't get you're item sold. There are many items I have tried to sell for the lowest possible price. There are no buyers because Jagex's artificial price is above the market.