qeltar

A couple of excellent posts, Flammacor, thanks. Duke: the problem with the Sony study you keep mentioning is not the study itself, but rather the assumptions you make about how and even if it applies to matters here.

Then why have some prices gone up despite not being able to sell at the lowest price? And why are others not being adjusted at all? As just one example... raw chompies have been 1k+ for ages. When the GE came out they were priced at 79 gp. Why? Because the 'item researcher' who came up with that price clearly doesn't even play the game. So everyone wanted to buy raw chompies at 83 gp (max price) and nobody wanted to sell. Price should go up, right? Eight days later, raw chompies are STILL 79 gp. I've actually sold some yew longs at 704 gp each (minimum price), and yet the price hasn't changed in many days. I'm afraid that it looks like items have a fixed price range they can't go outside, or the GE price updating algorithms are very badly designed. I can live with the 5% caps per day, but this is much much worse. And what's even worse than that is Jagex's disappearing act since the GE went online. No updates, no communication, nothing. They don't even seem to be on the forums any more. BTW, even if the 5% adjustment worked, it would take two full months for chompy prices to get where they should be. Same applies to dozens, if not hundreds of other items.

Then why have some prices gone up despite not being able to sell at the lowest price? And why are others not being adjusted at all? As just one example... raw chompies have been 1k+ for ages. When the GE came out they were priced at 79 gp. Why? Because the 'item researcher' who came up with that price clearly doesn't even play the game. So everyone wanted to buy raw chompies at 83 gp (max price) and nobody wanted to sell. Price should go up, right? Eight days later, raw chompies are STILL 79 gp.

I agree, but... Stating that because they haven't done something yet that they won't in the future is a fallacy. I can guarantee you that three weeks ago high-end stakers would have said EXACTLY the same thing if anyone had suggested Jagex would kill off their preferred means of playing RuneScape. Same fallacy as above. You know, at first I laughed when I read this.. but when I thought about it, I realized that it is far more disturbing than amusing. I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that your blind faith in Jagex compromises *your* judgment? It's really sad to see how many people look up to Jagex with a reverence that should be reserved for a parent, a respected teacher, or a kind clergy member. Jagex is not your buddy, not your best friend, and not your priest. It is a corporation -- a large corporation now -- and its primary interest is in making lots and lots of money. That's not to damn them of course; there's nothing wrong with making money. But anyone who deals with a big company SHOULD treat the company with a healthy dose of skepticism, especially when it has a past history of making dubious moves with little openness. Of course, I know why most people here don't: they are young and naive, and think that Jagex really "cares" about them and is looking out for their best interests. This fades with age and experience, I assure you. Childish and silly. Jagex themselves have given me all the eye-openers I needed this year with moves like their age 9-12 handbook and trying to legalize luring. P.S. Fook-a-Ji: There there, son. Don't fret. One day you'll grow up, and then you too might be able to discuss the big boy subjects in a productive manner. :D

There are many players who prefer to be self-sufficient. I'm not one of them, but even so, it is at least an option. Nearly every "normal" item in the game is far more "reachable" than party hats, which can only be obtained by buying them. Not really. Most people, even those who have played for a long time, do not have the kind of money needed to get rares, unless they either bought them early on or they spent time merchanting. Yes.. though that was before the recent deflation. Not sure what it would be now. What does a blue Burger King hat go for now, 500m? Suppose you have a responsible player who plays, say, 10 hours a week. Even at 500k/hr, it would take TWO YEARS to earn 500m. And that's if the player does nothing else. Oh, and in two years the hat will probably be 600m+. Oopsie, another few months. Only if you spend ridiculous amounts of time playing. I'm really talking about the hats, since that is what people are really after. The lesser rares aren't nearly as much of an issue. And again, it will be rare at first, and its price will be high, but it will go down as people get more of them. Not comparable to discontinued items.

Hohto made a personal attack on me long before I said a word to Duke. First post, second page. This comparison is really not valid at all. The truth is that you can get or earn all of the materials yourself that you need for every skill. There's no need for vast quantities of money, even if that money can make leveling easier. The same is NOT the case with rares. The ONLY way to get them is to get huge amounts of money. Again -- any player has at least the possibilty of getting these through hard work and some luck. Also, since they are not discontinued items, their prices will eventually fall, as has happened with every mundane piece of equipment in the game. Neither of those is true of discontinued items.

I understand what you're saying, and yes, I'm sure the volume of rares transacted has gone down. But it is still there. Also, the price of mils seems to be decreasing, and as Jagex takes many of the more lucrative ways of earning gold out of the game, this gives more reason for dishonest players to take shortcuts. I don't really see how that proves anything, sorry. It's just a more practical way of dealing with the issue, the same as how the police go after drug dealers more than buyers. Problem here: the normal laws of supply and demand don't apply to items like rares. They are luxury goods, purchased mainly for status. As such, they can have an inverted demand curve where they actually become more in demand as they become more expensive. This is called the Veblen effect. That's a bit of a null argument, don't you think? I mean, there's a huge, booming business in gold sales, so clearly *someone* is buying it. I don't think training becoming easier has anything to do with this issue whatsoever. The gap between people who can afford party hats and regular players is so wide that in many cases it would take players YEARS to bridge it. Also remember that while skills have become easier to raise, most have also had nearly all of the money making potential wrung out of them. Some skills that you could make a decent profit at even a year ago are now small money losers. It's not a big deal for most players, but skilling to be able to earn a party hat is extremely difficult. The only real ways for most players to do it are merchanting, scamming or buying gold. Like Duke did, you misunderstood what that point was; it was given in a different context. Yes, I didn't say they were breaking any rules. I said the game would be improved if it were changed to remove this aspect from it. Just as the game was improved when wilderness luring was removed earlier this year -- and for much the same reason. This is somewhat of a valid point, but really tangential to the issue. I never said rares were the *only* reason people buy money. Also, while it is *possible* to blow 100M+ raising skills, it isn't necessary. It IS necessary to blow 100M+ to get a rare. And most people do not know how to raise that kind of cash. Two sides of the same coin, really. I am talking about part of the reason why the autoers and gold farmers have customers. And please don't try to claim that people don't buy gold to get rares, because it's easy to find people trying to do exactly that. I've talked with people who have specifically admitted that the only reason they scam is to get enough money to buy rares. Because that's pretty much the only way they can get one. It's also common for people with rares to be targeted by scammers, lurers and whatnot. Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this. Yes, in part. Come on. You know as well as I do that they could have stopped all RWT in the duel arena with a cap that is 20 or even 50 times higher than what it is now. There's more to that update than just RWT. Either that or Jagex are complete idiots, and I refuse to believe that. Actually, I have seen at least one message from a J mod openly admitting being glad at staking being nuked because of the money issue. And I bet more feel the same way but are being told not to comment on it. Those changes are likely on the way very soon. Supply has skyrocketed; demand has not. That's why the prices of most items are falling. At any rate, I think you've gone far afield here; I don't see what this has to do with anything. I never said that Jagex was going to stop all trading or take away money. I said that I think the company wants to return emphasis to playing the game and away from spending hours amassing wealth. This has absolutely nothing to do with economics. It's simply a matter of policy on Jagex's part. They can remove rares tomorrow and the economy will be just fine. Or they can leave them and the economy will be just fine as well. The core issue is what they want their game to be like. They took away the concept of tradeable rares because, in their own words, the "whole holiday-drop thing" had become "horribly wrong". They SHOULD have just bit the bullet and made all of the existing items untradeable at that time. Instead they didn't, and every year that they let the situation go uncorrected, the effects of that initial mistake continue to magnify. I don't understand what you mean by "two people that are something by default". Correct. I'm not going to provide the names of people here without permission, nor do I intend to spend hours hunting down quotes from every person who has made a good argument in favor of removing rares. Just last night I was in a discussion with a very bright RSOF forum mod where I brought up this matter and he was in full agreement with me on it. But as was pointed out earlier, counting up supporters doesn't really prove anything -- other than that there is no simple agreement on this issue.

You haven't PROVIDED any facts and economic theories. All you've done is jump up and down screaming that you're an expert and you must be right. Your entire position boils down to "I like rares so leave them alone". Not impressive, to say the least. You never started. Chopping up my arguments into deliberately out-of-context sound bites is dishonest, and the sort of behavior I would expect from a cheat. Ignoring all of my points in favor of personal insults simply shows that you really have no valid arguments to make. It seems you've gotten so used to your little cult of worshippers telling you how great you are that you expect everyone else to fall into line automatically. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't do that routine. Especially when it becomes clear that the emperor here is buck naked. Hohto, I'll reply to your longer post later on.

Uh huh. It's so "absurd" that you couldn't even attempt a counter-argument to support your silly claim that the magnitude of a problem has anything to do with its percentage of the size of a market. So much for that. :lol: I don't know whom you think you're fooling with this nonsense, but I can assure you that it's not me. Here's a quote that came to mind: ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅThe law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

Fascinating that you don't seem to be able to produce any of these facts, and just continue spewing insults instead. I'm sure that speaks volumes. Such as? I honestly couldn't care less what you think of me personally. Do you have anything relevant to contribute to the discussion? Ooh, ah, let me get down on the ground and grovel on my knees. :roll: Honestly -- couldn't care less about your hero worship. I'm only interested in the discussions. Sticks and stones, etc. I'm not wasting any more time responding to personal attacks. If you have something substantive to add, feel free.

No, it's not. Not even a little bit, because the problems with them have nothing to do with relative market sizes. To use a real world analogy, the size of the illicit drug market in western countries is less than 1% of GDP. Does that mean they aren't a problem? Whether you feel they are or not, the size of the market isn't the deciding factor. I take issue with anything that I feel is detrimental to the game. I no more am running a "hate campaign" against rares than I am running one against anything else that I think is damaging to the game and to players. For starters, "it's an unfair advantage" is a perfectly valid argument. But it's not the only one. I haven't had time to fully flesh out my case against rares. I may do so in a future column. For now, I'll provide a brief outline of my issues with them. 1. The fairness issue that you mentioned above. And you can't just hand-wave that away, because Jagex has made many rules and policies intended to impose some measure of fairness in RuneScape. 2. They create effectively a two-tiered class structure within the game: those who can afford the more expensive rares and those who do not. I don't think this is healthy for the game. We end up with the current situation of people bragging because they have rares and others desperately trying to join the "upper class". I doubt that's what Jagex has in mind for the future of the game. 3. The people trying to get rares develop a grossly unhealthy obsession with earning money, which then pervades their entire basis of gameplay. This also then spills over to others, directly and indirectly. Every time a change is made to the game, people freak out over whether it "reduces their net wealth". Thousands of players who have plenty of money to play the game quite happily are actually miserable because they "need" 200 mil (or whatever) to buy a Burger King hat. I get people PMing me worrying over whether they should sell their fuschia hat now or wait because they don't want to lose too much $ which would set them back from buying a mauve hat later, blah blah. The game is FULL of this stuff now. 4. With high-end staking gone, rares are now effectively the only reason for which anyone needs a ton of money in the game. The pursuit of this money is what leads to many abuses in the game, including scamming and RWT. And similarly, the love campaigns that some people run for them. And yes, the fact that you were a rare merchant and sold your proceeds for real money is very much relevant to your comments on the subject.

The limit should be raised from 3k to around 100-200k. This would allow medium-level staking, with only a possible maximum win of around what can be made in other ways. It would stop RWT just as well as a 3k limit, without destroying staking. So why was the ridiculous 3k sum chosen? Why has Jagex refused to comment or clarify? Now you're resorting to little more than "it doesn't affect me so it doesn't matter". You also apparently haven't spent much time in tournaments. They are nothing like staking. Yes, sort of like when he called me a spammer and accused me of running a "hate campaign". I'm human, I get frustrated sometimes too. If you have a problem with personal attacks, you could at least try to be a little more even handed in your criticisms. I engage in FAR less of that than many other people here who come after me on a regular basis. No, I'm not explaining that I am correct. You once again did not follow the conversation. Duke Freedom said there was "no problem" with rares. I said I thought there was and that many others did as well. That was not an "I am in the majority so I am right" argument, it was a "the fact that His Royal Highness Duke Freedom thinks there is no problem with rares doesn't mean everyone agrees" argument. We didn't even get to the point of who was right or wrong -- he seems to think that he can just hand-wave the issue away by pretending to speak for everybody, and he can't.

I never had a "theory about jagex hating rares". Learn how to read. Here, I'll say it again for you, and I'll even use nice small words. I said that based on their recent updates, I think Jagex is trying to stop not just RWT but the money orientation of the game. They made a mistake in the past by not getting rid of rares, but it's one they can still correct, and one they SHOULD correct, IMO.

Then you shouldn't have a problem providing a valid rationale for a 12k per hour staking limit based on stopping RWT. Best of luck to you. Amazing how some people are so quick to pick and choose whose comments they consider "lacking in maturity". Might I suggest you go back to his initial comments to me and look more closely. I'm getting rather tired of certain individuals on this board declaring open season on me and others expecting me to just sit there and take it indefinitely. I never used such logic. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

True, and thank you for providing yet another example. I can, and I have, many times. And I will continue to do so in the future. It affects everyone, whether they own or want rares or not. Actually, that's the first time I believe I've ever raised the matter of you being a cheat. And I did so because it's directly relevant to the matter at hand.

Well, I think there is. And so do many other people. I'll play however I want within the rules of the game, and express whatever opinions I want within the rules of this board. I certainly don't need any advice on gameplay from admitted cheaters, thank you very much. You're practically a walking poster boy for the corruption caused by excessive money orientation in RuneScape, so it's hardly surprising that you don't think there is a problem associated with rares. :roll: And you might want to look up the meaning of the word "spam", since you clearly don't comprehend it.

No, actually, it has not. Many people have repeatedly made the valid point that RWT in the duel arena could have been stopped through a staking limit that would have still allowed stakers to do what they enjoy. There hasn't been any response from Jagex on this, nor a single valid counter-argument that I've seen in the last 2-3 weeks since the ridiculous change was made.

Criticizing something that is done by someone doesn't mean you hate them. If anything, there are too few people who criticize some of Jagex's worse moves. This game seems to be predominantly filled with fanboys who think Jagex can do no wrong.

I didn't flame anyone. I gave my opinion about a problem in the game. Saying I have a "tight mind" and accusing me of nonsense is flaming. And I get a lot more flaming around here than I dish out, I assure you; most of it I don't even reply to. Has nothing to do with the GE. Discontinued items are one fairly significant motivation for real world trading and gold buying. I also believe that updates such as the killing off of staking were about more than RWT, since anyone can see that they didn't need to drop the limit to 3k just for that reason.

It's not "crud". It's the TRUTH. The money that members pay is what covers the cost of DEVELOPING those updates. Freeloaders have no business complaining about what they get for free.

You want to know why most P2P players consider themselves better than F2P players? Fine, I'll tell you. It's because most of them ARE. Now, these comments don't apply to ALL P2P and F2P players. I am talking about averages; what is typical. In no particular order... 1. P2P, on the whole, consists of more serious players than F2P. A much larger percentage of F2P is new players or those who only play once in a while. That's why they don't pay. 2. Most P2Pers are more experienced and knowledgeable than F2Pers. 3. F2P players tend to be younger and less mature than P2P players. This shows in their actions; F2P has FAR more scamming, begging, and other annoying behavior than P2P. The vast majority of underaged players are F2P. 4. There are far more bots and autoers in F2P than P2P. 5. F2P players on the whole are less careful about how they treat others, because they know they have little to lose. Simply put, it's just too easy to create a free account and then use it to abuse others. 6. F2P players crowd, annoy and harass P2P players when they go to F2P worlds. 7. Last and definitely not least: F2P players SHOULD be grateful that they get a free game at all. Instead, too many of them have an attitude of entitlement -- they think they "deserve" updates or that it's "not fair" that P2P gets updates that they do not. In other words, they act like spoiled brats. There's more, but that's what I came up with off the top of my head.

Oh please. It is very common in most forums for administrative announcements to be made in the places where there is the most traffic. I've been around Internet discussion groups for 15 years and the Tip.It boards are one of the best run that I've seen. Give them a break.

Because they've shown in the last month that they are tired of the money orientation in the game. And that will never end until these items are fixed once and for all. If they do it, though, it won't be with silly conspiracy games on the GE. They will just exchange them for gold or make them untradeable or make a shop where they can be traded in. One way or the other, they are eventually going to have to stop avoiding this problem and deal with it.

Lots of prices haven't changed since day one. The whole price range system is an unqualified disaster, IMO.

This makes absolutely no sense. You don't ruin a billion-dollar product to promote something that's not even out yet. This just isn't done. Period.