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albeit wrong, it's a side effect of not having a free market. People will always try to make money, and as runescape becomes more controlling on how you can do so, people will get more desperate. i camped abyssals for 2 months to get charms for 80 summoning. In that time I accumulated a slew of whips and made a NICE stack of change. But you know, it sucked, it burnt me out (i got 80 summoning heh) and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. so I can understand why it's done. especially if you got the cash to do it. Raven, I agree with you 100% .

n64jive - I think me, you and fook all have very similar views, I hate to say this, but I think it's coming down to people who have taken uni level economics or have played since classic and seen manipulation occur and be praised for it. (Bluerose was a god in her time and you played classic yourself did you not? ) versus people who feel it's bad because they rely on others for every item they need and want something NOW. I've noticed too few disagreements in general as of late, it's nice to have one again and be a part of one. This board needed some spice. If we are going to discuss the RSOF thread, I can sum it up rather simple The Pathetic merchants are acting like the spoiled little brats who whine they exist, and Mod Mat K's actions to me as a manager of a customer support line for an ISP and a forum admin, strike me as dubious and somewhat bordering on unprofessional. Edit: She limited items made or at least sold, and at times she did stop making items, so the demand would rise. 99 smithing then was bloody damn hard and took an act of god, it took a long time for there to be 2 more 99 smiths. Gormis and Krest, Krest who got stat reduced for cheating.

The problem is in the knowledge base Jagex never clearly defines manipulation. Yes i'm being thick on purpose here but right now, I have some items in my bank and feel I could affect the price at least for a day, by liquidating some of my assets. Am I not manipulating. It's a stretch, but we need good communication about the way the GE works, no one really knows for certain and it is a faceless market. I do believe fook has a point, we have no clue of knowing the resources gathered and sold vs gathered and kept. I'd really love to know if all of these items are playered created, especially on the raw materials or crap people collect like tenderboxes, do people honestly think noobs or anyone buys tinderboxes and banks and sells them =\ ? Manipulation could mean when people tried to drive the prices up on pickaxe handles - they are taking advantage of people by tricking them into believing an item will be rare and limited in the future. Buying up an item especially a raw material that is a useful asset, is perfectly fine to me. The prices of most raw materials suck. I hate the current prices . you run at a loss on quite a few skills training the best ways, and a larger loss than you used too, but I feel it's more of a general laziness of players gathering items than manipulation. Herbal seconds skyrocketed for the most part when the GE came out because people who didnt put up with buying had an easy way to buy unlimited goods. They may make an item unbuyable, but again thats a fault with the system, if you want it bad enough, you should be able to pay more than everyone else. The power of the GP was greatly weakened with price floors and these guys cause the only real trends in the market. I dont think you can argue price manipulation without considering the fact the system is flawed to a point to where removing price manipulation won't help "Fix" the economy. i'd counterargue it is the main economic catalyst. Edit: So MMG thinks it's a problem, thats great, the entire GE is a bloody problem.

Yeah fook you hit the nail on the head. Bluerose'conomics really are what I'm used too. We all know people like Skone751, Yaurrada6, Pugxsi and Tks had money (Cant forget mctavish too ;) ) But these people largely got money by selling blueroses products - something she never really took the time to do. (I think Yaur bought from pugs actually ) The classic economy for ages was very pyramid based. Rune smiths sold to "Dealers" in a nutshell who often sold to other traders. Now you got lots of cliques buying an item and reselling it. Even Chewy shoe made most if not all of his money controlling or greatly influencing the raw materials/finished product market.. Even Skone made most of his money doing things like coal and iron among other raw materials. The GE should never be an "instant" market because the price floors may or may not reflect the price someone is willing to sell an item for. I know I won't sell my rune larges until I can get at least 60k+ for them. Will it ever happen? Nope, but in the mean time I dont care if I have one - or 500. I'm not selling them as I dont need the money from them. While I may be an exception, I know plenty of people in the same boat as me.

Moreover, in the ge, to put up an offer, you do need to have the money in your inventory before the offer can be made. As such, the price offers will ultimately be the same, assuming that both put in their offers for mid price. Going by the example of a medium offer thats sit for 2 weeks gets priority over a high offer for 1 second. If someone dumps it for min, it should go for that max offer.

In your example, I dont see how it would of done more harm than good. To train herblore - you bought herbs and seconds and probably made potions at a loss - removing GP from a game that in all honesty, needs more moneysinks. You bettered yourself - you have higher skills and your character is "better" then he was. Your character depending on how many levels you gained, has more of a shot to produce money and profit at various times in the future You made finished products that one day can be bought and sold by players who need them. I guess the main difference is I grew up in an era in classic and rs2 with no centralized economy, you had to be aggressive in the forums or in busy worlds like world 2. My game taught work and self sufficiency, and the GE feels like McDonalds, you go order and get your food/items quick. So these guys really don't affect me. Self Sufficiency for the win! As for first come first serve? The person with more money should always get priority over the person with less. In classic money was a hell of a lot harder then than now and people were used to working hard to save for an item. Not wanting to "Get in range" to get in line for an intem. If you do it based on a line system, money has became a hell of a lot more worthless because all it serves is a means to get in line to buy, not direct raw purchasing power.

I forgot that I don't "need" super restores at any God Wars except Bandos. And yes, God Wars is a "need" place for some. Some people do boss fights all the time. Not everyone plays the same way you do, and in return, not everyone has the same "needs" as you. The difficulty in quantifying runescape is that yes, some people need items for one event whereas a kid buying an item to do another is not a need. However people seem to it's control and risk free, it's far from it Overall, Finshed goods are dangerous to try to control, especially things like potions or let's say runes. Many people are probably sitting on millions and hundreds of thousands of runes and potions that they dont feel they should sell for the GE price range, an un-natural manipulation of them could cause people to dump the items in bulk. I dont really follow the potions trend, i'm sitting on a near liftime supply and wont ever need to sell mine to make ends meet, but I'd be surprised if people tried to control the potion market. Stuff like barrows and higher end armor (GWD) is more easy to control because it cannot be created, it must be killed for, which means in most likelyhood, no one is sitting on hundreds sets of varrock, bandos or the like. Rune Armor is very disposable, I know the big clans go through 50+ sets like candy in a few days sometimes, so it's going to be hard to maniup an item like rune because retired pkers like me, have 100+ sets they would dump for the right price but might hold incase they need them ;) Raw Materials are tricky, people mine and fish and the sort for money, so it's hard to control those. Never know what piles people are sitting on. Secondaries would be the most interesting. Most have to be gathered , farmed , and that can be numbingly slow (wines of zammy - eww) , so while they can, time is money so people like to buy them, since they cant be mass created/gathered for the most part, I can see where this has less risk. First come first serve does bother me. If i'm willing to spend more, I should get it before the kid who spends less. Especially if it's a limited good.

No shame in having a fun time arguing. Life isn't fun if you read 900030303 posts of "LOL I WUB MOD MAT K" Listen to this man. The truth he speaks. Thanks. :-D You are right though, Was grasping for straws with the easter egg one :P. But saw a moment of opportunity for some fun so I went for it. I will say if he did edit that topic, as someone who runs a forum, if one of my moderators changed a topic to mock the posters regardless of what they were upset over, i'd be speaking with that mod in the morning.

No shame in having a fun time arguing. Life isn't fun if you read 900030303 posts of "LOL I WUB MOD MAT K"

It's a game with a working and real economic system. Personally yes, any items that are higher up on the foodchain to level, such as seeds or herbs are a luxury because other herbs do exist, now if you *need* to level herblore for say a quest, and every herb you can use from guam to say irit, is sold out and thats all you can use, yes it's a need then. Personally I myself am sitting on a large pile of irit and avantoe seeds I bought a long time ago (over a year) for 40-60 GP per which is nice. The experience is still good enough that it works at a reasonable rate. Now 2nd's are a different animal altogether, If you are a level 3 skiller, and can't fight hobgoblins for limps, I suppose you have a need if you have a ton of kwaurm, but you can grow them. If those are gone, then yes it's a need else you can always suit up and go kill for them and skip, it's what I did the last 500 or so limps I needed. Hot items like snapdragons and gold ore (is that still the fastest smithing xp?) are bad to manipulate because everyday average joes can really screw up your manipulation. Before the GE. i Did gold ore from 90-99 smithing. It grew hard to buy at 500, so I bought for 550, for those last few levels, I paid well above price at 600 per ore to get it when I wanted it - instantly. I dont have that luxury anymore so thats a big reason why I am not a fan of the GE. I know a user with over three hundred and fifty easter eggs. He bought them as a collection, but we all know enough one doesn't exist for every player, so is he a manipulator? I'm quite confident he could damage the egg market and "Manipulate" if he sold more, I know for a fact his buying habits in classic caused the prices to rise quickly, manipulating the market Socially, thats cool because he collects rare items. But it's not cool for a group of 20 or 100 to log in and say "Today let's buy...Red Spider eggs" and they buy them for 3 days, an item you can pick up off the ground in multiple locations on 100+ servers. causing the price to rise, they become bad? The GE has serious flaws and should be in an auction type format where people can show true demand and supply in real time, not price cap bull that doesn't work. It's alot more difficult to manipulate an auction based system over a capped floor economy. I personally think it's highly ironic that when the GE came out I know me and some friends were able to buy over 100k+ of multiple type of burnt food products in a periods time. For me to hit the max burnt shrimp allotment daily, makes me think all of the goods are not player made and we have alot worse problems going on than just mean merchanting clans ;)

Snapdragon is a luxury, not a need, you can level with other goods. Too many people mistake luxury for needs. Again : Here is the games rules http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws? ... of_conduct Find anything about price manipulation in it. As for RSOF forum posts on the legality of something, look at swiftkit, 2 jmods said no, then other ones had to come out and say "yes it is legal, but we dont endorse it" I want it in the game rules or the terms of service for me to consider it a cannon rule. Infact, if it was "illegal" wouldn't the RSOF forum mods lock the merchant clan recruitment posts that are easily found? It may be frowned upon, but so is pilejumping, and no one gves a dang about that do they? Heres a merchanting clan: 93-94-582-58811307 Been open since may 12th. Looks like the RSOF forum mods would hide it if it was "illegal"

Nope, but rune armor is available in stores. You can buy a large majority of it for dirt cheap. Dragon armor, is a Luxury, not a need. If you get caught, In essence investment firms like the motley fool act as a merchant clan because lots of daily readers take their tips as the bible and buy stock. Some Investments, especially collectibles, do have a guaranteed return. Seeds - go thieve a master farmer. They got plenty, they dont run out. Unless you want wood trees, but any level player can woodcut for a nest. Kingdom also produces nests dragonstones - Can be killed from firegiants, or harvested through killing monsters from key halves (do randoms give key halves anymore?). Low level monsters do drop key halves, they can't be produced in mass but they are produced by using keys, but do you *need* a glory? Is it a need or a luxury? Please show it to me in writing. http://www.runescape.com/kbase/view.ws? ... of_conduct Don't see it on their offhand, do you? As someone with an economic interest who studies it for a hobby, I have no qualms with them in theory. Ever heard of a devils advocate? If I did merchant, I would probably own a godsword and not of had the same pile of GP for the last...7 months. But I dont, I can barely force myself to play currently.

What items do you need that cant be produced?

Unfortunately, I think you were a born a bit early for that. I think its only recently it came into style, and, sorry for assuming, but you are 20+ right? From looking at the RL picture of you, you have passed the teen years, and therefore, the ones you will likely meet have different rituals than the current teenagers. I've almost never seen people hug as a greeting.

which is still...Investing, A player still puts in a good or service in hopes to get out a higher return, The risk of the investment goes down more when you have more capital to "Control" the market. Except some people feel RWT is accomplished still with Junk trading, which basically skewed the prices of worthless items. In theory though, there are other clans as a major risk factor. It's not like one or two clans just exists, lots of big public ones and some very elite private ones as well. Most items people "need" can be obtained through other means. You can be self sufficient.

I think all women at my university need to read this article on hugs being cool. :lol:

yep, took micro and macro and I REALLY love merchanting clans because they do benefit the game to me at least.

I'm no expert, but the price in the Grand Exchange also plummets when clans merchant thus leaving everybody that wasn't taking part in the action at a big loss. For the uninformed sure, I do a large majority of my buying when an item crashes, raw armor and raw materials especially materials will almost always go up.

The only difference is a clan gets a better return quicker and takes less risk out of the everyday investment activities.

Funny to you is not cool to me, What was done defies GE logic. Grand Exchange was put in place by Jagex not to be manipulated by a few to upset many. t was put into place to stop RWT. It achieved that. The irony is, it made it much easier for trading to be abused before as you couldn't facelessly buy out tons of one good and cause prices to skyrocket. However Capitalism was deemed inappropriate so I have no issues with people with money, using it to buy an item in hopes to resale it for a profit. I'm surprised a merchanting clan makes the secret investment public in the clan chat anyway. Now on a non related economics note, I miss the "Ruined" economy macro prices where everyone could level and profit by alching. But hey thats me I should be able to put my money into items with the sole intention of being able to sell them later for a profit. After all, If my GP is sitting in my bank, it's doing me no good. Do any of you guys sell/buy stocks who are complaining?

Funny to you is not cool to me, What was done defies GE logic.

I cant help but shake my head at the blatant hate towards merchant clans on these forums. it's not a free market where players decide prices, its a market with cap's on items that fluctuate based on trading demand - You cannot cap a price on every item and force people to sell them for that, they can horde the items as I do, crippling the economy in essence. I horde almost all of my raw materials because I dont like the current prices. Jagex removed burnt items because of "RWT" abuse. People like myself collected them and 10-20 gp per burnt fish was still worth it to me. :P So the market we have is a very bad market in numerous ways. I've hated the GE and it's one world market for 160+ servers since day one, and will continue to hate it. I want a free open market.

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