Robert_R

It's the number one reason I don't play WoW. Second being it's overly focused on combat, and third being the price. Seriously though, I like Soloscape. Don't change it please. :pray: Instances really suck unless you have a good group. And those are rare. Soloing, duoing etc is impossible for things designed fo a group, if it's impossible to brute force it. Lots of whining and hating. Good groups have fun. The rest are busy kicking noobs off their team. Good, bad, whatever. I want no part of it. I don't want to do group stuff. I simply don't like it. The idea that a skill would require team involvement to raise it just kills me. My skill level in it would never pass 1. A group skill would suck tbh.

Hopefully this will be next week's update... Not sure if I can handle knowing about that place and nothing about what's going on inside it much longer than a week.... Especially after they've made us wait out the strange power thing for like a month lol

Then make the trade, in trade. No one is forcing anyone to use the GE. :P I would do that, except most people who want to sell simply put them in the GE. No one in their right mind would go around looking for someone to buy it, if they could simply leave it in the GE... which puts me into an equally precarious position. In any case, this isn't meant as an accusation so I think I'm done. Either you understand, but don't care because to you, other players are just faceless pixels, you don't understand or don't want to understand, or you understand and are considering changing. I'm going to guess the first option, since that's the trend of the general Runescape community: "I don't give a rat's [wagon] if you think I'm rude." As Aahz once said, "I'm way past mad... I'm thoughtful." I'm not angry. I just feel the need to correct misinformation when I see it, and hopefully, since you sound like you understand now... well, maybe if enough people understand, things could be different some day. I get everything you keep saying except for the part that you view it as stealing. I still don't see how making money off of someones impatience is stealing.

I don't think the flipper should be paid. That's my anger with this, he's done nothing to make the proverbial pie larger. An Abyssal Whip is currently 3.2M to 3.5M. I don't know automatically whether there are lots of people selling it, or lots of people buying it. All I know is that unless the price is a LOT higher than 3.5M, I'd rather buy a whip than do without it, or get my own. That's why I make the offer at 3.5M - I know that if people are trying to sell their whips, the GE will sell me one. If people aren't, well, I don't need it NOW thanks to the fact I can borrow one, and there are other things I can do while I wait. You buying the item from someone at minimum and selling it to me at maximum has left us both satisfied, yes. I'm not arguing that at all. However, had you not purchased it from him and sold it to me, either he would have gotten more money, or I would have spent less. This discrepancy is surplus, but it belongs to us - the two parties of the transaction. It should not go to an anonymous, unnamed third-party who did nothing to benefit either of us. This is my gripe with the situation. I see why you're mad and trust me I don't like it too much either I'm just trying to say it's not very negative to the buyer simply because they don't have to buy it if they don't want to. You're right about the flipper not really deserving the money and I kind of agree because it just takes away from everyone who works for there money when someone can just sit there and do nothing to make millions more then the person who works for it.

Never really noticed how much specializing back in the old days made people need help from other people more then now until you pointed that out lol. I'm starting to think jagex is really trying to bring that back with all of the clan updates they've released and are still working on though. Possibly by adding bigger and harder bosses that require multiple approaches from different combat skills at the same time like you said. I'm still sticking by what I said about never wanting to play this game if I had to stick with one class the entire time. And I'm talking about just combat classes that can still do all other skills not classes that specialize in only one skill, that would draw me away from this game soooo much more then just combat classes.

Avainsies drop a lot of noted addy bars. Can't think of anything that drops other noted things that haven't already been mentioned.

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE. That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower. This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw. That's my whole point right there. None of you seem to understand the concept of "Consumer Surplus." Right now, if I were to lose my Abyssal Whip due to, say, dying at Tormented Demons and not making it back in time, I'd go to the Grand Exchange and buy another. It could be 5M. It could be 7M. I'd still buy it. Maybe if it were 12M, I'd reconsider, and possibly get my own. If this is the case, then MY valuation of the item is 12M. If the GE will sell for 6M, my consumer surplus is 6M. However, if you buy it from a seller for 6M, replace the offer at 6.2M, and it sells to me, you have reduced my consumer surplus by 200K. This is why I keep repeating, it's a zero sum game. Anything you get within this system has to come from someone, and unless you return the value by providing some sort of service, then it's had a negative impact. Maybe I don't get what you're saying but I really still don't see anything negative by selling higher just because someone is willing to buy it. I mean ya it's negative if the person is only willing to pay 6m but he has to buy it for 6.2m but if that's not the case I don't see anything wrong with it. You're saying the ge will sell for 6m but you're also saying it will sell to you at 6.2m from a buyer. The thing about that is you can only get it for 6.2m from a buyer if you put the offer in for 6.2m in the grand exchange which means you're obviously willing to pay more for it. If not you could just as easily put it in for 6m and not buy it from the person selling it for 6.2m. There's nothing forcing you to buy it higher then what you're willing to pay for it, unless a merch clan picked it up and is manipulating prices but that's something different. I just don't see what you're getting at by implying you're going to be buying it from the "flipper" for 6.2m if you only want it for 6m you could put the offer in for 6m and not buy from him.

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE. That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower. This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw. The patience is needed partly because of the flippers who are taking away the offers at lower prices. That's true but most flippers look for items that were already rising and hard to get in the first place. You gotta remember that flippers also had to have the patience to buy the item at the lower price to be able to sell it at the higher price. It's not like they got it instantly. There is one exception I can think of that's having a decent effect on prices by flipping atm. Chessy's manipulation clan turned into a merch "help clan" a few months ago but really all they do is have several items that they claim to tell people are good for flipping.

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE. That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower. This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw.

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either. There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE. Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange". That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly. Why do you assume that when people make an offer at minimum, it is convenience they want? When I sell my loot from slayer, I always offer at minimum. This is because the mechanics of the GE state that if someone if people are willing to pay more, then they will pay me a higher price than I have offered. My actual valuation of the item when I do this is below the minimum value of the GE. The difference between what it's worth to me, and what I receive for it, is known as "producer surplus." The GE's ability to retain my item is all the convenience I ask for. Taking advantage of the mechanic to seize a portion of this producer's surplus for yourself, or conversely, the consumer's surplus, is not providing convenience. What? I never said anything about selling for minimum or getting an item from a drop, this topic is about flipping :wall: I'm talking about the difference of paying market price for an item or paying max for the convenience of getting an item, that won't buy instantly at market, instant. I'm talking about any random person that's willing to pay more and any random "flipper" that know someone will so he makes his offer to sell the item higher. Not putting an item in minimum because you know somene will buy it higher. This topic is about flipping which isn't selling lowest and hoping someone will buy it higher, it's putting an offer in higher then you bought it for. And nobody is talking about you specifically so what you do is irrelevant. Also, flipping has nothing to do with what you get as a drop it's all buying and selling. Oh ya and stop trying to talk down to me by explaining economics, I know enough of it so stop doing it. Okay I'm sorry, but you're getting ridiculous. I know what we're talking about, thank you very much. Do you? Flipping is buying items, from other people, then selling the same items, to other people, and hoping to make a profit in between. If you really do know enough of economics, then you would understand. Which you obviously don't. The fact of the matter is, when you're trading between players, nothing is created or lost, so your profit has to come from somewhere. In this case, your profit comes directly out of the producer surplus of he/she who produced the item, or the consumer surplus of he/she who purchased the item. Many have claimed "convenience" as the service they have provided, and I am pointing out that that is not the case. You have no control over who you purchase your items from to flip, and there are many people who don't need this service, hence it is not a service at all. Now you're just deliberately being an [wagon]. Oh and btw if they didn't need the "service" then they wouldn't be buying it for max. They'd put the offer for market. Not to mention the fact that I never said convenience was a service. @ Bedman, yes I get it I'm just pointing out that he keeps using the fact that he gets his drops from monsters and sells for minimum. Which has nothing to do with the topic of flipping. But w/e I see what you're getting at, the "flipper" really doesn't deserve it but if the buyer is willing to do it then what's stopping him.

As have I. I've invested in stocks, as well as mutual funds, treasury bonds, and others. Profiting at another's expense in itself is not the issue - the entire concept of a stock is that it's a piece of a company, which entitles you to benefits "x" and "y". How well the company actually conveys these benefits to the holder, and how valued these benefits actually are, play heavily into the fluctuation in the value of a stock, which allows for this. By what you keep using as an example of what you're trying to say, selling loot from monsters, I'm starting to think you don't know what flipping actually is...... Flipping has nothing to do AT ALL with monsters. It's simply buying an item in the grand exchange and reselling it. Nothing more nothing less. There are no monsters involved, no drops, nothing. Sure the items have to come from somewhere but when flipping that doesn't matter, you're buying it all not getting it from anywhere else. And tbh real life stock investments are a little too different from flipping in runescape so can we just stop using that as an example.... I mean come on there are no mutual funds or treasury bonds in runescape. This topic is about runescape flipping so can we keep it at that?

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either. There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE. Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange". That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly. Why do you assume that when people make an offer at minimum, it is convenience they want? When I sell my loot from slayer, I always offer at minimum. This is because the mechanics of the GE state that if someone if people are willing to pay more, then they will pay me a higher price than I have offered. My actual valuation of the item when I do this is below the minimum value of the GE. The difference between what it's worth to me, and what I receive for it, is known as "producer surplus." The GE's ability to retain my item is all the convenience I ask for. Taking advantage of the mechanic to seize a portion of this producer's surplus for yourself, or conversely, the consumer's surplus, is not providing convenience. What? I never said anything about selling for minimum or getting an item from a drop, this topic is about flipping :wall: I'm talking about the difference of paying market price for an item or paying max for the convenience of getting an item, that won't buy instantly at market, instant. I'm talking about any random person that's willing to pay more and any random "flipper" that know someone will so he makes his offer to sell the item higher. Not putting an item in minimum because you know somene will buy it higher. This topic is about flipping which isn't selling lowest and hoping someone will buy it higher, it's putting an offer in higher then you bought it for. And nobody is talking about you specifically so what you do is irrelevant. Also, flipping has nothing to do with what you get as a drop it's all buying and selling. Oh ya and stop trying to talk down to me by explaining economics, I know enough of it so stop doing it.

4+ hours for +4 strength bonus isn't worth it. Especially for things like moss giants... +4 strength bonus is only one higher max hit and it's not like you need that extra one higher max hit to kill a moss giant.

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either. There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE. Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange". That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly.

True but that's how the combat triangle is designed, range>mage.

Flipping does not provide a convenience, because had the item not been flipped, it would've awaited the person who wanted it... at a lower price. And as you pointed out, most of the time you don't need the money right away, nor the item. It doesn't take extra work to sell, the GE does it for you. No service, so no reward is deserved. Do you do a service when you kill a monster and get a drop? No, you kill it so in your theory you shouldn't get a reward for it. But seriously you don't have to do a service every time you make money it's not true in runescape and it's not true in real life.

Trading is a zero-sum game. For every 100K you make, someone else involved loses 100K. I don't know if it affects the system, it probably does on a much smaller scale. But you are taking from other players without giving them anything in return, that, in my opinion, is fairly negative. That's not true. If I buy an item while it's crashing at 10.2m then sell it the next day when it starts to rise again for 10.3m did anyone actually lose money on that deal? No they just payed more for it because they bought it at different times. Now if you do that by buying the item for 10.2m and selling it for 10.3m to the exact same person a day later then yes it is negative. Oh and the ge didn't really help flipping at all, if anything it made it less profitable. It was harder pre ge but you could flip upwards of 10 whips for 200-300k each an hour if you were good. Now you have to wait for a 4 hour limit using the ge to flip. Yes, someone DID lose something. Do you not understand the concept of a zero-sum game? It means the amount of goods in the system hasn't changed. Three people put their items into the GE for 10,200,000, and do not check again until tomorrow. Three people tomorrow buy at 10,300,000. However, because of the way the GE works, they each have 100,000 returned to them. Each person trying to sell the item receives 10,200,000. Each person trying to buy the item receives their item for 100,000 less than they were willing to pay. Input yourself into this system. You buy one from one of the three people on day one, and quickly resell on day 2. Each supplier still gains only 10,200,000, but one of the three buyers spends an extra 100,000, that flows directly to you. When you flip without the Grand Exchange, you are saving one person the time and effort involved in selling their product, and services such as this have value. With the Grand Exchange, where items simply sit and wait to be purchased and collected, you are not providing any service - just taking. For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing. [/hide]The profit comes from other players but it doesn't mean they lose anything. It simply means they save less. There's difference between losing and saving. If someone is willing to put an offer in for 10.3m and you got yours for 10.2m the day before then they aren't losing anything. It's not losing just because you got something when the other person got it for less. If that was the case everyone single person in this game would lose something when they buy anything. And your little it about services at the end is flawed because you said they put the offer in for 10.3m therefore they want it..... Do you honestly go and DO something every time you sell an item? I guarantee you've "flipped" something simply by reselling it at a later date after using it without knowing (if you haven't that means you've never sold an item for more then you bought it for....). That's basically what flipping is, selling something at a later time for more because prices have changed. First of all, I don't buy anything that I don't need. Anything I buy, I keep, or use, or occasionally, lose. Anything I sell, I either found it or made it myself. So your guarantee is wrong as far as I recall, I don't ever remember buying anything to resell. Also, I think you misunderstand me. I'm using the word "lose" in an economics sense, which simply means you're worse off than you would have been in the hypothetical situation. That is, in this scenario, if event x had not happened, you would have 500K. Because event x happened, you only made 400k. This means event x caused a loss of 100k. If you aren't familiar with, or dislike my choice of words, then I apologize for the confusion. However, the fact remains you have had a negative impact. You entered the system, and in the hypothetical situation where you were not present, at least one of the parties involved would have been in a better position than they are now, after your involvement, and you have given nothing in return. So you're telling me you've never bought ANYTHING in the grand exchange then sold it again at ANYTIME.....

[hide] Trading is a zero-sum game. For every 100K you make, someone else involved loses 100K. I don't know if it affects the system, it probably does on a much smaller scale. But you are taking from other players without giving them anything in return, that, in my opinion, is fairly negative. That's not true. If I buy an item while it's crashing at 10.2m then sell it the next day when it starts to rise again for 10.3m did anyone actually lose money on that deal? No they just payed more for it because they bought it at different times. Now if you do that by buying the item for 10.2m and selling it for 10.3m to the exact same person a day later then yes it is negative. Oh and the ge didn't really help flipping at all, if anything it made it less profitable. It was harder pre ge but you could flip upwards of 10 whips for 200-300k each an hour if you were good. Now you have to wait for a 4 hour limit using the ge to flip. Yes, someone DID lose something. Do you not understand the concept of a zero-sum game? It means the amount of goods in the system hasn't changed. Three people put their items into the GE for 10,200,000, and do not check again until tomorrow. Three people tomorrow buy at 10,300,000. However, because of the way the GE works, they each have 100,000 returned to them. Each person trying to sell the item receives 10,200,000. Each person trying to buy the item receives their item for 100,000 less than they were willing to pay. Input yourself into this system. You buy one from one of the three people on day one, and quickly resell on day 2. Each supplier still gains only 10,200,000, but one of the three buyers spends an extra 100,000, that flows directly to you. When you flip without the Grand Exchange, you are saving one person the time and effort involved in selling their product, and services such as this have value. With the Grand Exchange, where items simply sit and wait to be purchased and collected, you are not providing any service - just taking. For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing. [/hide]The profit comes from other players but it doesn't mean they lose anything. It simply means they save less. There's difference between losing and saving. If someone is willing to put an offer in for 10.3m and you got yours for 10.2m the day before then they aren't losing anything. It's not losing just because you got something when the other person got it for less. If that was the case everyone single person in this game would lose something when they buy anything. And your little it about services at the end is flawed because you said they put the offer in for 10.3m therefore they want it..... Do you honestly go and DO something every time you sell an item? I guarantee you've "flipped" something simply by reselling it at a later date after using it without knowing (if you haven't that means you've never sold an item for more then you bought it for....). That's basically what flipping is, selling something at a later time for more because prices have changed.

I played in high settings (on standard detail) before the last standard detail update but I switched to lowest settings possible after it due to lags and it's still not any better.

Trading is a zero-sum game. For every 100K you make, someone else involved loses 100K. I don't know if it affects the system, it probably does on a much smaller scale. But you are taking from other players without giving them anything in return, that, in my opinion, is fairly negative. That's not true. If I buy an item while it's crashing at 10.2m then sell it the next day when it starts to rise again for 10.3m did anyone actually lose money on that deal? No they just payed more for it because they bought it at different times. Now if you do that by buying the item for 10.2m and selling it for 10.3m to the exact same person a day later then yes it is negative. Oh and the ge didn't really help flipping at all, if anything it made it less profitable. It was harder pre ge but you could flip upwards of 10 whips for 200-300k each an hour if you were good. Now you have to wait for a 4 hour limit using the ge to flip.

You bought a staff just so you could sell it for more money? :thumbdown: Should let people who actually need/want to use one buy them. Thats why i sold it :thumbdown: But more seriously, item flipping isnt manipulting, it's genuine merchanting. Also, i had luck in selling it, since they apear to be crashing. We wll fight with the weapons we have. [/hide] Misconception, "merchanting" is every bit as bad for the community as manipulation. As long as you aren't actually providing a service to other players, you shouldn't be able to take money from them, which is exactly what item flipping does. That's not true... Flipping an item doesn't manipulate an items price to make money off it. It's just buying an item low and selling it either the same day or next day. Manipulating clans take advantage of the system by making an items price increase so they make money. Oh and finally finished with fist of guthix for awhile. Now all I need to do is find something to use them for... Burst lobs :thumbup: Good point lol gonna go to dks for some quick cash first.

[hide] You bought a staff just so you could sell it for more money? :thumbdown: Should let people who actually need/want to use one buy them. Thats why i sold it :thumbdown: But more seriously, item flipping isnt manipulting, it's genuine merchanting. Also, i had luck in selling it, since they apear to be crashing. We wll fight with the weapons we have. [/hide] Misconception, "merchanting" is every bit as bad for the community as manipulation. As long as you aren't actually providing a service to other players, you shouldn't be able to take money from them, which is exactly what item flipping does. That's not true... Flipping an item doesn't manipulate an items price to make money off it. It's just buying an item low and selling it either the same day or next day. Manipulating clans take advantage of the system by making an items price increase so they make money. Oh and finally finished with fist of guthix for awhile. Now all I need to do is find something to use them for...

Ya but I would never play this game if I couldn't switch between melee, range and mage when I need it. Simply because classes would absolutely suck for anything but pvp.

I started noticing it after the last graphics update to standard detail a few weeks ago. It's only gotten worse since then too.

I've been having the exact same problem. What I did was go to the java website and click the thing that says "do I have java?" it will check if you have the latest update. If you don't, update java. It seemed to work for me(so far....)