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Earth, please don't insult mather, he is fairly intelligent, just somewhat overcurious. And I don't think any of us know how economies work...I don't think anyone knows how economies work...If they did then fixing the economy would be easy. I think its like research though....we have a general understanding of something and that general understanding tells us it is good and therefore we think that we should be rewarded for knowing something clever...and, as with research, the things tend to be so 'out there' that no one else has much of an idea about it so we just accept or reject things.

Wasn't you economic plan something along the lines of: Focus on agriculture for 20 years, begin industrial revolution, sit back and earn intrest? Seems more like a general concept than a plan :rolleyes: Anywho, economics in hegemony has always been a weak spot...someone should really fix it. Although economics has always been a weak spot in history, so maybe it can't be fixed... Guess it depends on what understanding of economics the mod has to define what will work and what won't work...

It would be like going to the north pole and setting up a bottled water import bussiness on the premise that bottled water has good sales in Saudi Arabia. Or that Ireland was brought off of Britian for beads(Britain is actually closer to Manhatten than Alaska is...) What? So the government gives money to the poor for blankets, which they desperately need to stay warm because this is Russia...so the peasents are mildly wealthier, but dead from cold...Natural selection favouring people who told the government to get lost. The government then pays for blankets to be shipped to Alaska. The government then pays for traders to buy fur pelts off of natives with blankets...Which is like trading tissues for handkerchiefs, since blankets are considerably worse than furs at keeping warm, harder to maintain and just aren't that great. The government then pays for the pelts to be shipped home. The government then pays tailors to make fur coats. The government then pays salesmen to sell fur coats to the wealthy. And then, somehow, expects to have made a profit.* Fur pelts cost 14 shilling for 12 feet, circa 1770 Blankets cost 12 shillings, circa 1775 *So you would make 2 shillings. Based on 1830 exchange rates(Annoyingly doesn't go earlier than that) that is £7.55, or $11.78. (All rates are based off of Retail price index) Or a 15% markup, which seems fairly good, then you have to consider the costs of hiring/buying the ship, saliors, tailors, traders and supplies for the ship's voyage. If we then assume that you have an East Indiaman trading vessel doing the rounds. A sailor woud expect 38 Shillings a month. http://pirateshipwrecks.com/history_of_piracy And you would have about 100 sailors. So between 3,800 shillings per month(for simplicity we will assume it only takes one month from Vladivostok to Alaska), or 3,800 coats/blankets(Since it is a two way trip.) per trip. (As the crow flies it is 3,362 miles, though by boat, probably considerably longer, since you would be following coastlines.) The price of a vessel: £3,912 2s 1½d Or $296,000...or 25,000 Blanket/Pelts. Now... With a native population of 2,500(upper estimate), this would mean each person would need to be killing 144 beavers (A beaver pelt is about 1 foot square) every two months, and harvesting their pelt expertly, to break even on the running costs. Assuming no damage in transport. To break even on one trip you would be looking at 3,152,000 beaver pelts, or around 1,261 beavers per native person. Then there would be an issue in that an East Indiaman only having 560 Imperial tons of space, assuming beaver pelts weight 1 pound, this is 1,254,400 pelts...So you would be looking at three trips to break even, though with the increased wages, 4 trips. Then considering that this would lead to localised beaver extinction within a couple of weeks it is fairly reasonable to conclude that the entire economic process would collapse within half a year, with output far lower than expected and, most probably, not breaking even. Thus, the entire enterprise was doomed to failure, unless it was assumed there was an infinate beaver population, the natives didn't mind freezing their backsides off, the Russian peasents didn't mind dying of cold and starvation, the government traders worked for free and the nobility, accounting for 0.6% of the population(210,000 people), didn't become saturated within three months, assuming local fur production didn't suffer tremendously at the new influx...and...ultimately that pirates wouldn't raid the ship worth 5,853,876 shillings** (4.7 million pounds, today's money). **Since I would assume you would go with max tonnage, which would be 560 Imperial tonnes, and assuming beaver pelts weight 1 pound, this is 1,254,400 pelts, making 104,533 coats, worth £62,719 16s 0d or 4.7 million pounds by todays standards. Which would be around 1.2 million beavers every two months. Considering Beavers tend to live as breeding pairs, with birth rate of 3.6 beavers per year three years, this would require a starting population of at least 6 million beavers to be sustainable...(Killing 7.2 million beavers per year) http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1674/0003-0031(2003)150%5B0139:CADOBC%5D2.0.CO%3B2 Before the fur trade began the whole of the North American Contient only had 100-200 million beavers, which were liberally spread from Mexico to the Arctic and from Pacific to Atlantic.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Beaver Thus finding between 3.6% and 7.2% of them in Alaska is improbable...So within a year, perhaps two, they would have become locally extinct. All assuming the markets didn't fluctuate and the 100 sailors monopolised this 24 million dollar(todays market) a year bussiness.

Fool-proof :rolleyes: Anyway... In the first place the natives have virtually no money, so the export bussiness would be a finacial blackhole. The population of Alaska was tiny, so not like you could just use a massive tanker to offset the costs... In the second place cloth and fur would not be worth the same to natives, as the cloth would be damp, salt ridden, shrunken and smaller...It would also be difficult to repair, given there are no/few sheep in Alaska...so, assuming the Alaskan had an IQ of double digits, they would tell the Russians to shove off and just keep the furs for themselves. Thirdly, using current prices, Blanket costs: $4 Tanker costs: $4,000,000 Fur costs: $40 (Which is odd, but true.) So you are making $36 per trade, thus to get back the investment you would need to trade 111,112 blankets for coats to break even... Ignoring running costs and all the other jazz like collecting the blankets/furs. At the time Alaska had a native popuation of around 2,500(some estimates as low as 1,500)...And selling 45 blankets, a year, in exchange for 45 dead animal pelts, per person, may be somewhat difficult. Also an issue was that the Russian peasents, who were making these blankets didn't have money for bread, let alone a dozen sheep, a loom, a spinning wheel and a couple of weeks with no farming to do. Further issue is the premise of buying cheap blankets from Russians, trading blankets for furs, and then selling the furs back to the Russians. In essence the Russians end up with a $36 deficiet per trade...which is a fairly unstable economic model. More definate of a problem is the fact that the Russians were already trading 'basic neccessities' to the natives in exchange for furs, and that these supplies were depeted by 1784, which caused the revolt... TL;DR All in all, its a brilliant plan, provided no one looks into it. ~Retechian Economics.

Anyway. Three main issues. First, people have a tendancy to overstate their abilities/build massive weapons that they alone control. Thus giving people hegemonic and dungeoneeric control is like giving a solider 5 billion pounds/dollars and telling them to prepare for battle. Secondly, from some experiances in Dungeoneering I, people who control a city/empire tend to have very little interest in the day to day running of said empire, far prefering to go out adventuring/make war with someone else...Thus any real decision making would be pretty broad....or (In reference to above) so tremendously narrow as to be considered stupid: IE Mod posits: 'Sir, the people are starving, but troops from the Empire are coming this way, we can either give the military rations to the people, and become defenceless or we can send our troops out to fight and face starvation at home.' With responce: 'The solution is obvious. We disperse the food to the citizens for a price and use the money to buy more food.' ~Retechian Economics OR 'We consult the spell book/tech database for food spells/food replicators/nanites (They do anything) and invest 50 billion mana/credits/dollars in it, instantly completing it.' ~Matharian Technologics OR 'We disperse the food to the citizens and, instead of paying the army, we build a massive mecha suit for me and I go and own the enemy.' ~Dungeoneering Mantra OR 'Stuff the army, buy/research mines and deploy them outside the castle/city/whatever, then build siege engines in the time we have before they arrive and be prepared to fire them when the enemy arrives, decimating their strength, forcing them to retreat, allowing us to collect more food/trade with someone. The food is given to the citizens in exchange for work.' ~Archarian Historical Gamebreak OR 'Everyone is given martial arts training and conscripted, then sent off to war.' ~Hegemony Legion of DOOM. While in Hegemony these are written off because the impact isn't seen in any detail...and because arguements take days, thus 5 years may have passed and changing things would be even worse than not changing them, in Dungeoneering the silliness becomes massively apparent very quickly and gameplay can be stopped if so desired to argue it. Thirdly, Dungeoneering has the ability to turn five minutes of gameplay into five hours real time(If people get off topic or if person X needs to do something IRL)...and 'missions' that take far longer to complete than the mod thought they would. Thus if the game has 3 days dungeoneering and 4 days hegemony, it is almost guarenteed that dungeoneering would spill over into hegemony time...and decisions in hegemony time would be waylaid by the hope of victory in Dungeoneering. The alternative is a Space-like system, where players make a collective/hierachic decision to advance the game X number of years...thus changes you make in one era will be more pronounced in the next era. Though, unless everyone is grouped together(Which leads to alot of friction), this can lead to much boredum or nine different players in 9 different timezones(Paradoxes abound). Another alternative might be set Hegemony sessions once or twice a month...So the game advances at set intervals. This would mean that players involved in a Dungeoneering mission at the end of the period would be modded...which can lead to vast arguements...But this is probably the best method of play for your needs. A third alternative would be fast and slow modes...So if no one is doing anything a year passes every day, while if someone is doing something then time slows down to that rate. Though this leads to massive boredum and hatred when people do something innane and wastes three days, thus no one does anything... Also modding Dungeoneering 24/7, would cause massive headaches and consume your life.(Hegemony modding can do the same thing, but you can take a break whenever you like...Dungeoneering needs set times so people can plan their days...and people would get very bolshie that you should run dungeoneering consecuative days to cut down the time spent in slow mode.) Ultimately, it would be difficult to pull off, but would be quite interesting to play. :-D

It could be very interesting. Though your 'people' would have to have a sanity bypass, since we have a tendancy to do massively stupid things. :rolleyes: I will give a fuller opinion after transporting my sister to college.

/join #space26 tavern Logs: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12603519/Space/Logs/%23space26.Tip.It.log

(Actions from the bank) 1. The great leader, Archi, has a great dream, a dream of a day were there will be a great hall of knowladge. While the dream seems strange, and greatly confusing, Archi spends a great many hours deciphering the meanings behind the imagery, eventually concluding a great technological marval. Needless to say, it was great. :rolleyes: Logs are stripped of their bark, this bark is used as fire wood and compost, while the main trunk is left intact. Improving the yield. Huzzah! 2. Four large rocks are found (A two person each to lift jobby)(There is usually one near a river, so the search starts there) and are carried back to Koal...All done by the Braves/anyone who wants to help. The rocks are named 'War', 'Pestilence', 'Conquest' and 'Death'. Conquest is stuck in the middle of the town for no real reason. 3.War is placed on the ground, firmly dug into the ground, and gradually the top is ground into a convex(slightly bulging) dome, with a fatter, taller, dome in the middle, with a rimmed edge. 4.Pestilence is ground into a dome, just slightly smaller than War's diameter (About one/one and half arm spans(from right hand to left hand)), along with a pair of concave(a slight depression) domes of similar(exact is not required, just nice) dimensions to War. Several holes are also cut into the dome(much higher than the depression), large enough for a log to to be comfortably inserted(about 30-50 centimeters deep) and enough to support the weight of Pestilence if lifted. A final hole is bored from the top to the bottom, around 5 centimeters wide. Pestilence is then gently lowered onto War, thus creating a large, manpowered, grinding stone. [hide][/hide] 5. Death is fashioned into a large throne and I decree hereditary rule, so that even death cannot conquer our great people(and instituting a monarchy :thumbsup: ). When I am not off inspecting the village, tinkering with this and that, I am found sitting on it. (Daily actions) 1+2+3. Banked. (Bringing the total banked to 4)

Yay for New Year's parties. I am running people to various trainstations across the county(yay for not being an alcholic), so carrying over till Monday. :thumbdown: Sorry to all :oops:

1.Seeds are divided into groups and stored, with one from each group being planted. A record is kept of what seed does what. :thumbup: 2+3. Action is banked to replenish my severly depleted supply. (I think that brings me to 6 actions in the bank)

9. Greg's Braves of Kaol are dispatched, along with a number of strong men, to one of the small outcroppings of Jungle to the North East. They are charged with collecting wood.

IGN. I did sort of get the impression that the game was deisgned for face paced button combos, rather than pad mashing or holding X. =P

The Glorious Terran [Type] of Kaol is founded. 1. Scouts are sent out to determine the resources of the local area. 2+3. A Carpenter is located and given the task of discovering a way to use wood to build a container that can carry people in the waters. (Boats) 4. A great competition is held, drawing the best fighters from all over the city to found the [Leader's name] Braves. 5. A destructive teenager is found and told to discover fire(Teenagers have an abnormal facination with fire.) 6. A mason is located and instructed to work with the Braves to develop a weapon that can fell the mightest tree in one of the forests we have passed.(Stone Axes) 7. Another set of explorers are dispatched to look for other empires/land to settle on. 8. The Women Folk are sent out to gather seeds. Also, since Paul has said he won't show actual control zones: Unoffical map of the game:

Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 :thumbsup:

Indeed, Paul is writing up the OP for it.

Koal Terran

I think Paul should give us the names....We get to choose the second part of the name, but Paul says if we are an Empire/City State/Republic/whatever. Anywho: Kaol

/join #space26 tavern.

'We would like to apologise for the unscheduled up time, our engineers are working hard to bring the servers back down. Please bear with us during this period of service.'

Cause you are similarly coloured :rolleyes: I will change the colouring.

I have been thinking of a 'non-hegemony' hegemony game, slightly ripped off of C&C Red Alert. We dump any of the complicated economies and just go back to 'City equals 50,000 Credits per turn'. Research is changed, so rather than constantly creating whole new tanks for whole new purposes there is a default 'chassis', default 'tyres/tracks', default 'engine' and set of default 'weapons'. All simplified out of the technobabble and just with 'I want my tyres to work better on Ice' or 'I want a stronger chassis.' Production is exploded a little. Rather than just building whatever you like, whenever you like, you build factories/training grounds that make the tanks and train the troops. More factories equal more production.

No worries, the game spawned the three reason system, so I am happy. :thumbsup:

Dungeonal...I am nothing like Brutus...If anything I am more like Von Paulus if you are Hitler(Not in terms of Genocide, but in terms of Stalingrad). I am doing my level best to do what you said, but, in the end your orders will only lead to my destruction.