warri0r45

What do you mean? You think rapists are following the Bible? I don't think so. All your study shows is that some people that say they follow the Bible actually don't. :| ... I don't think so either (well, some probably do, I suppose but... that's not what I was getting at). As for them not following the bible correctly, I'd concede that. See above.

I'm not sure if statistics can convince me that my opinions and moral values are wrong. With my statements come a lot of assumptions as you and others pointed out. If people waited with sex until marriage and took their wedding vows seriously, I don't think we would see much STD's, rapes, abortions, prostitution etc. However, I'm aware that it's not always the case. The high divorce rates might be because of people marrying to soon and perhaps for the wrong reasons. I don't think people (who's against premarital sex) marry primarily in order to have sex, but it could be a factor leading towards a premature marriage. Other than that I don't have much to say really, I suppose I could find statistics favoring the bible belt but I don't see the point. Maybe I'm being too hypothetical and perhaps not realistic but I believe that the Bible's stand on sexuality is the right one. If I can't use stats to sway your opinion then there's no point really. I value that you see the bible as the way to live your life and values on marriage, but we need to be realistic about this. It's not a bandaid that heals all wounds. It works for some but for others not so much. If you can use the bible's morals and get no STDs, have a loving and healthy marriage, then all the power in the world to you. I just wanted to point out to you that people following the bible for a moral life isn't as foolproof as it's cracked up to be and that one can avoid all those nasties while not following the ethics as dictated by the bible. [/hide] However, I doubt that such polls take into account how consistently people follow their beliefs. In my experience, most people in the West have forgotten how to carry their beliefs to their logical conclusions, whatever those beliefs may be. We tend to have large discrepencies between our beliefs, thoughts, and actions. If that is the case, then it does not damage Korskin's point at all, since his hypothesis would say that those people's sexual practices were not consistent with Biblical views of sexuality. Point conceded. The point I was making is that following the bible does not automatically mean you'll end up avoiding all the nasties. It's not a balck and white issue (as Korskins pre-marital = STDs, rape, prostitution, abortion comment suggested) yet a very grey one as is the case with following any other system of morals to achieve a goal. Humans don't often follow a system of morals how they were intended to be followed and nor would you expect them to when they are imperfect. Irrespective of them being followed correctly or not, those populations who follow christian morals rarely have a better report card when it comes to STDs, rape, divorce and some others, it seems. Of course, I'd need to do more thorough study to come to a more definative conclusion but from what I originally posted, I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from.

I thought Muslims were part of a religion, not a race. So instead of being racist he was being religionist? Now I'm confused! :P The point is that I couldn't see where Tigra was racist. It's a strong accusation so you'd like to think he'd get it right. Haha Yeah I knew what you were on about. :wink: Bah, sorry, I'm in a overly serious mood. I totally by-passed the smily. :lol: :wall: :P

I thought Muslims were part of a religion, not a race. So instead of being racist he was being religionist? Now I'm confused! :P The point is that I couldn't see where Tigra was racist. It's a strong accusation so you'd like to think he'd get it right.

It was your stereotypical 'game of two halves.' In the first, the Broncos owned yet in the second, the Cowboys picked up 5 gears. Incredible try from Matty Bowen in the second. He constantly makes me rethink of what it means to be a damaging player. I was thinking at times that you guys would come back and win yet lucky for us we held on. I do hope Lockeyer is ok as well. :pray:

I'm not sure if statistics can convince me that my opinions and moral values are wrong. With my statements come a lot of assumptions as you and others pointed out. If people waited with sex until marriage and took their wedding vows seriously, I don't think we would see much STD's, rapes, abortions, prostitution etc. However, I'm aware that it's not always the case. The high divorce rates might be because of people marrying to soon and perhaps for the wrong reasons. I don't think people (who's against premarital sex) marry primarily in order to have sex, but it could be a factor leading towards a premature marriage. Other than that I don't have much to say really, I suppose I could find statistics favoring the bible belt but I don't see the point. Maybe I'm being too hypothetical and perhaps not realistic but I believe that the Bible's stand on sexuality is the right one. If I can't use stats to sway your opinion then there's no point really. I value that you see the bible as the way to live your life and values on marriage, but we need to be realistic about this. It's not a bandaid that heals all wounds. It works for some but for others not so much. If you can use the bible's morals and get no STDs, have a loving and healthy marriage, then all the power in the world to you. I just wanted to point out to you that people following the bible for a moral life isn't as foolproof as it's cracked up to be and that one can avoid all those nasties while not following the ethics as dictated by the bible.

I thought Muslims were part of a religion, not a race.

I find that incredibly hypocritical of you considering you were the one that provoked him with a condescending remark. You made a claim, he asked you to back it up and you did so, but while doing so you provoked him with a flame of your own.

I don't think a single word of that made any sense. You literally talked yourself in illogical circles. Reason is unreasonable, so some form of a god has to exist? The universe has properties that we can understand, so some form of a god has to exist? Non sequiters, anyone? I mean, I'm not an atheist, but there's no flaw in warri0r's logic. Just because something supernatural (i.e., beyond what is natural to us, and thus impossible to understand) can't be disproven is no reason to jump to the conclusion that it exists. *Sighs* Let me break it down. Let's assume that there is nothing supernatural. It follows from that that nature is all that exists. Nature is governed by principles which are random in nature (ie. chaotic) Examples include quantum mechanics which govern how individual atoms and molecules interact. It also follows that since nature is all that exists my mind is a part of nature. My mind functions based on chaotic principles. My mind preforms reasoning, an ordered series of events focusing on a goal. (this is an example). Therefore my mind is both chaotic and ordered in nature. Therefor it is not the case that nothing supernatural exists. The same argument form was how it was discovered that the square root of two is irrational. It's called reductio ad absurdum or reducing to absurdity. It is based on the premise that a thing can not be in possession of both a quality and it's logical negation. In this case, my mind can not both possess rationality and irrationality. The weakness of my argument is that I do not go into the reason why I believe that it is intrinsically necessary that something supernatural exist in order to explain how the mind can be rational in a world based in part on irrationality. I am too tired to go into that tonight. Maybe tomorrow after work I will... or later... depending on when I get done with everything else I'm already doing. Perhaps if you look at the bold outside of quantum mechanics and rather in the fields of chemistry or biochemistry you'll recognise many chemical interactions are not random and rather ordered and predictable. It seems you're saying everything in nature is chaotic i.e. unordered. I really don't think so from what I've learnt.

+1 cool points for you? You wouldn't know that till you prove God does not exist? You speak as if it was a fact. ~Defender~ Defender, people don't refuse to pray just because they think it will make them cool. If they do they are as pathetic as the kids at school aspiring to conform to the group of jocks. People refuse to pray because statistsically, it's nothing special at all. People get healed and people don't about 50/50 but somehow, those amputees never regrow a leg. And we don't need to disprove god to confidently hold this position. Just like we don't need to disprove that praying to the flying spaghetti monster, the flying teacup, pink elephants, gremlins, troll, witches, warlocks or James Dean works. There are no facts in the supernatural world but that dosen't give us an excuse in an argument. What if the supernatural is just another level of reality? What if there's a super-supernatural with another level of deity? What if there's a super-super-supernatural? Or even another dimension in which this god of yours or another 24 exist? Parallel universe? Inside a wormhole? Perhaps Santa, the Zen spirit of Beetohoven, Yogi Bear and Alice Cooper's youthful facial appearance all exist on a fold in space time beyond the edge of the universe in the thirteenth dimension of a super-super-supernature. But do you hear me arguing "you can't prove that Santa, the Zen spirit of Beetohoven, Yogi Bear and Alice Cooper's youthful facial appearance don't exist on a fold in space time beyond the edge of the universe in the thirteenth dimension of a super-super-supernature and don't answer my prayers. You speak as if it's a fact." Well, whether you accept this fact or not, my little scenario has as much credence as does your god in terms of provability. Please, don't use the old 'you can't prove that god dosen't exist' stunt, because that is an IMPOSSIBILITY unless said god ever chooses to show himself to us. Proofs and known truths are reserved for the natural world, I'm afraid. (forgive the slight facetiousness) Hmmm... Methinks that you place too much value on inductive and abductive reasoning... And specifically on how they relate to the sciences. If I were to tell you that all mooses are elephants, and all baboons are oceans, and therefor all mooses are oceans you would call me crazy. My reasoning is unfounded. Yet, if chaos is at the heart of everything, (think about quantum mechanics) and my reasoning capacity is in any sence of the word a thing, then chaos is at the heart of my reasoning (which I assume to be ordered). Furthermore if chaos is the heart of reason, then reason is unreasonable so I may as well stop trying to achieve anything through it and go live in a cave. My above argument is every bit as valid as this one: All ants are insects. All insects are animals. Therefor all ants are animals. That is to say that knowledge (Defined by Aristotle as justified true belief) is not possible. That doesn't conform with my experience with reasoning. Technology, science, and medicine all seem to indicate that reasoning is ordered in several ways. The first is that if the same conditions hold, and I do the same thing, the same outcome will occure. This has been established to be true in a host of different circumstances. The fact that the computer that I am using to write this message is working stands as testiment to the truth of this observation about the ordering of reason. The other way that reasoning is ordered is that it appears to be the case that regardless of whether or not a sentient being is conciously focusing on an event that event will still obey certian principles and ordering. A dead tree will fall in a windstorm whether I watch it or not. In a sense reasoning superceeds interpretation of it. With that in mind I confidently make the conclusion that if reasoning is ordered, then there is a basis for that reasoning. Reasoning is ordered, so it only follows that there must be a basis for that reasoning. I haven't established the necessity of diety, but I believe that this is ultima-facie grounds for holding the belief that that is a reasonable basis for reasoning being ordered. I'm not interested in proving that I'm right and you are wrong. I used to be, but now all I really care about is demonstrating that I can believe that there is a God and still have a brain. I'm giving an answer why I believe, no more. Forgive my total absence of knowlege when it comes to philosophy. Mind dumbing it down a little? How was all of that tied in with what I posted? o_0 @ Bold. Of course. Do you think I was calling theists stupid? I hope not, because that couldn't be further from the truth. :?

That's why I didn't back them :P . Looking forward to Cowboys v Broncos tonight. I would be going but I have a 21st to go to. Will be a huge crowd at Dairy Farmers. It's my mob vs. your mob. :P Hey, is Thurston playing? I hope so for a tough contest. It would be another great test for the Broncos at this stage of the season.

+1 cool points for you? You wouldn't know that till you prove God does not exist? You speak as if it was a fact. ~Defender~ Defender, people don't refuse to pray just because they think it will make them cool. If they do they are as pathetic as the kids at school aspiring to conform to the group of jocks. People refuse to pray because statistsically, it's nothing special at all. People get healed and people don't about 50/50 but somehow, those amputees never regrow a leg. And we don't need to disprove god to confidently hold this position. Just like we don't need to disprove that praying to the flying spaghetti monster, the flying teacup, pink elephants, gremlins, troll, witches, warlocks or James Dean works. There are no facts in the supernatural world but that dosen't give us an excuse in an argument. What if the supernatural is just another level of reality? What if there's a super-supernatural with another level of deity? What if there's a super-super-supernatural? Or even another dimension in which this god of yours or another 24 exist? Parallel universe? Inside a wormhole? Perhaps Santa, the Zen spirit of Beetohoven, Yogi Bear and Alice Cooper's youthful facial appearance all exist on a fold in space time beyond the edge of the universe in the thirteenth dimension of a super-super-supernature. But do you hear me arguing "you can't prove that Santa, the Zen spirit of Beetohoven, Yogi Bear and Alice Cooper's youthful facial appearance don't exist on a fold in space time beyond the edge of the universe in the thirteenth dimension of a super-super-supernature and don't answer my prayers. You speak as if it's a fact." Well, whether you accept this fact or not, my little scenario has as much credence as does your god in terms of provability. Please, don't use the old 'you can't prove that god dosen't exist' stunt, because that is an IMPOSSIBILITY unless said god ever chooses to show himself to us. Proofs and known truths are reserved for the natural world, I'm afraid. (forgive the slight facetiousness)

I believe though that players going over to England and France is a good thing. It only strengthens the English Super League causing their home grown players to play better (which naturally happens with a stronger competition) which inevitably strengthen international Rugby League which we definitely need in a time where there is a growing enthusiasm for Rugby League around the globe. Good luck to Matt King while over there. Oh and we shall not speak of the Eels loss on Monday. :P I was at the game and it was not pretty. Though there was a drunk eels supporter yelling to the Newcastle supporters near us when we were losing and it was nearly over "You lost Andrew Johns, you lost the Pasha Bulka and your on the way to loosing another spot in the top 8 this year! Enjoy the win while it lasts!" :lol: :lol: You could have a point about raising quality of the international competition but I'm more concerned with the NRL. I think we need to raise the cap or elite players need to be content with 300 grand a year like anyone else would. I don't see why individual players can't get sponsorship deals that don't add into thier cap either. Why are you more concerned about the NRL, than a stronger international competition? We could have individual players have sponsorship deals but raising the cap is a bad idea (which we've seen to be in the past). Too many clubs would go broke if they raised the cap and for a so called "National competition" we can't afford (in my view) to be loosing clubs, we need to be building with more clubs in a more vast area of the country. :wink: People like Phil Gould (who is a major supporter of raising the salary cap) is only wanting that to happen so his beloved Roosters (who have one of the worst juniors structure in the NRL) can be come better again by buying their players off other clubs who have raised them up through the junior ranks. Its the reality even though he wouldn't admit it. Fair argument. I'll put my point this way: would you be happy if blokes like Hayne, Hindmarsh or Burt shafted off overseas because they wanted the cash? I know there are problems with tinkering with the money situation but purely from a fans perspective, I'd be a bit gutted if it got to a stage where whenever it looks like we've got a prospective Lockeyer or Johns coming though, they just shift off overseas. This position purely from a club fans perspective.

I believe though that players going over to England and France is a good thing. It only strengthens the English Super League causing their home grown players to play better (which naturally happens with a stronger competition) which inevitably strengthen international Rugby League which we definitely need in a time where there is a growing enthusiasm for Rugby League around the globe. Good luck to Matt King while over there. Oh and we shall not speak of the Eels loss on Monday. :P I was at the game and it was not pretty. Though there was a drunk eels supporter yelling to the Newcastle supporters near us when we were losing and it was nearly over "You lost Andrew Johns, you lost the Pasha Bulka and your on the way to loosing another spot in the top 8 this year! Enjoy the win while it lasts!" :lol: :lol: You could have a point about raising quality of the international competition but I'm more concerned with the NRL. I think we need to raise the cap or elite players need to be content with 300 grand a year like anyone else would. I don't see why individual players can't get sponsorship deals that don't add into thier cap either.

I hope you grow out of your communist submissive fad. You are better than a government that rules you. You are a human being. You are worth something. A government is a system. If you bow down to a system you've tarnished your worth.

For real? Out of the total 25,000 or so? Interesting.

Why do you make the government seem like "the man",without government we'd be living in a structureless world and don't say we'd all get along because people would do what they want without any resistance otehr then the victims and there would be no money so we would have to robe people who makes stuff of supplies. exactly my point. So for the guy who hoped I was joking, heres a differently worded version of what i said, does this make more sense? I agree but the great thing about a democracy is that we're able to criticise them despite all the good they do. It's to be expected and neccesary so they don't start feeling like dictators and let the power get to thier heads. The way I think about this is that I first take it as a presupposition that I'd always rather have a government than not and then I'll abuse the crap out of them (so to speak) because it's my right as a voter.

This thread has copious amounts of win. Anyway some things which may be of some food for thought for Korskin in particular. Bible Belt leads U.S. In divorce rate. The Christian South leads U.S. In aids rates by region. Gonorrhea, Syphilis and Chlamydia at high rates in the Christian South. Abortion rate lower among bible belt states (a little math needed). Abortion rate lower among bible belt states (a little math needed). Rape rates in bible belt slightly higher than national average (a little math needed). This comparison is to show you that in the more Christian portion of the U.S., where the values of abstinence until marriage are prevalant, there still seem to be notable rates of STDs, rape and divorce. To be fair, it seems you were right about abortion rates. I'll have a dig around for prostitution stats later. The point I'm making is that you shouldn't make assumptions based off of what you believe. You could be proven wrong.

It's all a conspiracy charade where all the fat cats that run America and sold it out after the Revolution all want to gain more control over the uneducated masses so they can push thier own convoluted agendas. Here are some cold hard facts for you. - The CEO of Verichip lives on 666 prescott drive. - JFK is NOT DEAD, HE'S JUST LIVING IN AREA 51. - Pearl harbour was not instigated by the Japanese or the Americans, it was instigated by a socialist race of alien organisms that did it for thier own unknown agendas. - The flat earth society is actually correct. The fictional kangaroo and koala land of Australia does not exist and the earth has a planar geometry. THERES NO SUCH THING AS A SPHERE, IT'S A SENSORY ILLUSION ALL THANKS TO CHEMICALS PUT IN PROCESSED FOODS. - All this talk of streamlining the economy, helping people and other steaming BS is all a cover-up charade because the 12 in the smokey room have the power to turn off anyones chip whenever they want. - Beer does not contain alcohol. It contains a sensory deprevaton chemical which SHRINKS YOUR THIRD EYE. - Animals of the KANINE variety are not of this earth. They are yet another preoccupation to keep us credulous and docile sent here by ALIENS who have a CONTRACT with the U.S. GOVERNMENT. - All this 'entertainment' we have today is a facade to make us all stupid and the education system is crumbling like the Greek Parthenon. Don't be fooled, it's supposed to be that way. - THERE ARE RUSSIAN NUKES IN CANADA. - Roswell was real, but not as the conspiracy wackos say it happened. The UFO was a government charade put in place to give the conspiracy nuts something to scare people with so that the real UFO, which actually crashed in MANHATTAN, NEW YORK CITY, could be transported into a mock up 'UFO MUSEUM' in RURAL PENNSYLVANIA. But why didn't the millions of New Yorkers see the UFO? Because it can turn invisible. - The whole 'war on drugs' is a cover up too, same as the war on terror. You know what the 12 actually call both? THE WAR ON YOU. All because they make the people docile and submissive because of the psychology that we now have an enemy and we need the governments help, how could they possibly be an enemy to us? - 9/11 was taken out by a SPECIES OF MULTI-DIMENTIONAL ALIEN ENTITIES which yet again had a CONTRACT with the U.S. GOVERMENT all so that they could push an agenda. The U.S. government had to develop a highly sophisticated machine that looks like an astronouts suit but is actually a device so that we could transport the contract signer into the FIFTH-DIMENSION so the contract could be signed. - Watermellons are vegetables, not fruits. - ELVIS, KURT KOBAIN AND TUPAC ARE LIVING WITH TIBETAN MONKS IN THE HIMILAYAS. This is all truth. The fact, the proof, the factorum, the undeniable and definate truth. (Sorry for getting a little carried away :P)

Amen to that. :P

Contrary to popular belief, there are atheists in foxholes. I've been though lots of things I didn't deserve which I would call pretty traumatic and which led me to jump on that fine line between holding my temper and keeping away from knives or ending up in prison for murder. Prayer never entered my mind and I've always come through the other end alive, well and sufficiently sane. :lol: :P I don't think prayer works and I don't like it when people make a connection between a prayer and medical recovery while seemingly forgetting medicine altogether. Why won't god heal amputees? http://www.yoism.org/?q=node/178

Nah, I missed it. :wall: So was it just about the fact that it needs a rennovation?

I'd like to alert us all to the true nature of reality in that we are all part of the collective unconcious and we are all perfect, beautiful and intelligent beyond our own imagination. All our suffering and hate is brought about through misinterpretations of this true nature of oneness and though fevered egos that taint our self awarness. All people are worth an eternity in the eyes of a divine god who is us and we are his heart and life is a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves. But seriously, I'd like to do something in the field of biochemistry. Currently studying in first year university.

John Coltrane.

I absolutely adore it. Mainly because I like the scientific angle which you rarely see anywhere else on normal T.V. Entertaining all round, really.