NukeMarine

The bonuses and skill levels different, but not by much. Melee bonuses are very straight forward. Range bonuses are more difficult as it's the ammo that helps determine damage and the bonuses are for accuracy. Mage is the most complex as the spells (and part of boosts and weapons) that determine damage while bonuses are for accuracy. Defense is the most complicated formula, as armor not only reduces chance of hit but also impacts how your damage is dealt. Once a workable figure is nailed down (which Jagex has at it's finger tips), it's a minor effort to do a correlation. Put it this way: Would you feel fairly certain you can using chaotic rapier and full torva defeat a player that's 140 atk, 140 str, 140 def, and 140 con with ZERO weapons and armor? He's like, 60 combat levels ahead of you, though you should win on the average. Now, let's make that player 200 atk, 200 str, 220 def and 140 con. I'd wager even with 20 sharks between the two of you that you lose 50% of the time. A mental exercise to be sure, but seems in keeping with current combat mechanics. As far as what two players think in regards to extreme, well, that tells me what two players think. Now, I do think pkers probably take priority when it comes to opinion here. They are the ones impacted the most, in which case a poll can help. However, Jagex can and has changed the game and combat mechanics without input also. If they are fair about it, I'm cool with that too. PS: I'm happy for return of free trade and the wilderness (with certain reservation). Please cook your red herrings elsewhere.

I wonder why pkers would disagree with you... Are you a pker, and to go even further, do you really understand the effect of untradeable potions in the wilderness? If most people seem to agree that it's a bad idea allowing those potions into the wilderness(people with 99 herblore before the potions ever existed, no less), what is your problem with them? For your information, there are opposite limitations on pvp item specials, so it's fine by me having the wilderness go around another standard. By pkers, do you mean "some pkers", and by "most people" do you mean "the few people I chatted with"? Using all inclusive terms don't help your point. Now, if you can point to some poll that was performed by Jagex asking the population about the use of extremes/ovl's in the Wilderness and 50% responded negatively then I'd agree with your use of the term. There's a chance you may be right, but Jagex didn't ask for the opinion of the masses or even of pkers. They just removed overloads/extremes within a week and only reluctantly allowed them in safe pvp later. So long as it's coming down to those that think only skills should be used to determine who can fight who in the wild, versus skill and equipment to make that determination, there's not much more to do for this conversation. At that point, it's just opinion on which is best with neither being right or wrong. However, this strong reaction to extremes and overloads helps strengthen my point. If I understand correctly, the main complaint is that overloads add invisible increase to one's combat abilities without affecting the combat level. Heck, even if Herblore were fairly altered to allow it to impact the combat level, many would still complain. So, why is it that armor and weapons do the EXACT SAME THING, and there's no problem? A whip adds like 82 atk and 91 str to a character (57 combat levels) which far outshines the amount of str and atk added via an Overload. Heck, you now have life boosting armor that adds 10 combat levels for that 40 con boost alone. On top of that, every other thread likes to play on the idea that player's perceived value of armor and weapons should be taken into consideration about how these new Chaotic and Life Boosting armor only benefit the rich (yet another complaint against overloads). If you're arguing for one and not the other, you're missing the point. Equipment and items boost combat. Armor and Weapons offer a permanent boost to combat skills when equipped. Food, Potions, Prayers and Summoned offer a temporary boost. Of course, all this would be moot if Jagex just made the Wilderness free for all right? The main purpose of Wilderness levels is to at least create some semblance of chance when you enter. Go higher and watch chances get lower as more people can fight you and soon you can't even teleport away. Problem is, with 1-item weapons becoming so OP, even that chance is going away. There has to be some method to balance that out IF we're on the assumption the Wilderness levels are there for a fair chance at the lowest levels.

Apparently now you're 125+12

Would be an interesting mechanic where you need to repair a grave at least once to be able to loot it. Encourages good behavior (helping someone that died) to balance out the looting which may or may not be bad behavior.

They are "gone" in that you can't win them by gaming the 76k rule. Now, they're drops for Revenants, making killing Revenants a practical activity. In addition, this prevents such items from turning into "rares". Personal opinion on the FAQ: - Lootable gravestones: Kind of on the fence here. I like that it makes boss hunting dangerous, however it will encourage negative activity like luring (not at DK's or Wilderness tactic, I'm talking the scam type). However, Jagex does pretty warn you even if you enter dangerous areas, so I lean more toward this being a good idea. - Item drops visible in wild: GOOD IDEA. Kind of sucks for rangers, but then you could kill the guy looting your arrows, right? - Cash drop for non-tradeables in wilderness: AWESOME IDEA. This was an old suggestion, and I assume the drop is the high alchemy value. This idea should work outside the wilderness wrt lootable graves now. - Remove PvP worlds: HORRIBLE IDEA. Jagex should keep one or two worlds like this. - Moving Revenants: BAD IDEA. Jagex could have just made it to where Revenants don't attack skulled players. This will keep even the Wilderness a bit more dangerous in off peak or underused wildernesses. - No item protect Wilderness servers: Good Idea. I hope there are a lot of these servers. Would have preferred it only applied to those skulled in the Wilderness, but still a fair trade. - Extreme/Overloads: Still think it's a bad idea. Jagex just needs to revamp herblore and make it a support combat skill. It's easy to do by adding in lower level untradeable combat potions to justify it.

I've always been an advocate of no teleporting if you're skulled in the wilderness. Barring that, it'd be cool to have a level 25 "Skull Teleblock" that you can cast only if you're skulled, and can only be cast on another player that's skulled. Of course, I also feel the protect prayers are overpowered. Heck, I think if you're skulled then even item protect shouldn't work. Sorry, what's your point with that statement in relation this this thread? Please show where I did this. Melee armor has highest numbers in range defense bonuses in most cases, so you can't ignore when I used crystal shield as an example. As far as accuracy goes, where dealing with an imaginary situation in a fantasy game where the creators keep a lot of mechanics behind closed doors. Now, if you know the average success rate of a 95 atk using chaotic rapier versus a 95 defense wearing full torval and crystal shield, then please enlighten me as it'll make the case for or against easier regardless. Cause I'll be honest, you haven't a clue how to determine DPS when it comes to PvP when it comes to varying skill level and bonuses. Can I assume you're not that stupid? Ok, I will. 3:1 meant every 3 defense bonus is like 1 defense skill. This is an assumption on my part as I, like everyone else not privy to the computer code, don't know the actual combat mechanics. It's all guess work. With a lot of experimenting, it could be done, but probably easier to beg Jagex to make it more transparent.

Interesting, it's almost like they're at different levels of combat ability. The poor guy with only a dragon claw just doesn't stand a chance. If only Runescape had some area in place to keep people of different combat abilities from being able to attack each other, although as one moves further "north" into that area, then more and more divergent levels of combat ability can attack each other. Oh wait, we do have that. Once again, when the main determination how well one did in combat was the combat skills (rune being the max), how the Wilderness was set up made sense. Now, when one reaches 50 or 60 or 70 or 80 in offense or defense skills, they get access to equipment that when worn can effectively double (if not more) the affected skill. Now, we even have Life Boosting armor that effectively adds 40 con (10 combat levels) with zero impact on the combat level. I already explained why, you just disagree with it. That's fair, and I understand your point of view. Just remember, when players hit milestones in skills they get ENORMOUS boost to combat ability far, far beyond just going from 69 atk to 70 atk. It's that reason that I think it's better to use skills and armor/weapons/spells to determine combat level. Just reasoned opinion. Are we talking a 70 atk/str/def/con (CMB 82) versus a 95 atk/str/def/con (CMB 111) type players? Let's keep it melee for now. Now, I'm not sure what equivalent defense level one needs to replicate armor. For right now, let's say you get 1:3 for Melee and Range defense and 1:1 for Mage defense bonus. Likewise, the arrow and spells affect how much damage is dealt which is like str bonus for melee, but I'll deal with that later. Anyway, why is your example using Bandos when he can use Barrows? Is the +6 str bonus really worth that much? We'll assume he's using barrows (Toraq), whip and full crystal shield. This is since we're concerned with what the armor and weapons offer, not necessarily how much they cost. The other guy use full rune, scimmy. atk 70 +82 str 70 +82 mag 70 +0 def 70 +122 [+366 rng def (+34 rng absorb)] con 70 +0 That puts him at about 186 cmb potential, melee bias atk 95 +45 str 95 +42 mag 95 +157 [mystic, fire surge] def 95 +70 [209 melee def (+20 rng absorb)] con 95 That puts him at about 154 cmb potential melee bias though if he had runes for fire surge then he'd be at 192 mag bias. Now, of these two, who will win in 20 matches at the duel arena assuming 10 sharks each? Granted, player one is at a disadvantage as part of his level is based mainly on range defense instead of melee. Now, if player 2 has runes for fire surge, that's going to boost his mage up high, almost like a +112 in addition to boost full mystic gives (+45). Though his def will still be treated as if he's melee bias since he's carrying them. Probably puts him at about 192 mage bias. I think he'd destroy anyone that just has 190 from only melee. However, I doubt he'd do well if player 1 switch to karil's. I don't think it's too complicated assuming you understand that the "Strength" for Mage is the spell and for Range it's the arrow used. These determine the damage, so it's easy to find the equivalent. Then there's the small matter of how much defense bonuses actually affect defense. However, Jagex knows all this info, just doesn't share it. I think they can fairly make a formula that takes equipment into account. Conclusion: From what you're saying, and you'll be right, is that a game mechanic that I suggest (skills and equipment for combat level) gives ENORMOUS power and flexibility to high level players that hybrid or swap level 40 equipment against mid level players using level 70 gear. It's like a reverse pure if you will, but purposely using low armor to offset using a more powerful weapon. Still, that advantage only works if they use the combat triangle, which is not necessarily a bad thing. What would help if is higher level armor (level 50+) started giving Life Boost. Something like full level 50 boost +100, level 60 boosts +200 and level 70 would boost +300. This would fit nicely with the level 80 that boosts +400. Something like that would aid the above situation, giving more advantage to player 1.

Your first question I think would be great if Jagex gave us a full breakdown of results. Jagex (or MMH) What did member votes in this poll look like? What did f2p votes look like? How many accounts were created, and voted after the poll was announced? Of older accounts, what do the votes for accounts created after free trade was removed? The accounts that existed before? Although the poll was rigged, I think it can still shed light on the acceptance of free trade and wilderness.

Since pkers won't have EP losses to discourage teleporting, I'd like them to make a "Teleblock Skulled" spell. It's a level 25 spell, however you must be skulled to cast it, and can only be cast on skulled players. It makes abyss running MUCH more dangerous, but I skillers will like it as catching abyss pkers becomes easier also.

Negative. In the current system, if a 138 walks into the wild with full torva then EVERYBODY near 138 will try to 1-item him with claws. He's risking over a billion, they're risking 0 gp. What school of math says no one will bother attacking him? That's why the poster above said going into the Wild with full Torva is crazy. However, if Torva, Divine and Chaotic Sword all added to combat level, then that 138 is more like combat level 365 (195 str, 195 atk, 250 def, 140 con). In a new system, he can only attack and be attacked by people near him ie risking level 80 combat gear. Reason being a 138 with only claws is like a combat level 180. Does it sound so unfair that maybe one should risk a lot in order to get a lot in this situation? Agree, it's minor and very complicated, so please ignore that part of my suggestion. In all honesty though, herblore can be easily adapted to be a combat skill by adding 20 or so untradeable combat potions throughout the skill. Then treat it like prayer and summoning. With a new system like I suggest, then wearing mage robes will be the key to increasing levels, and overshadow any str or atk you have. Mage though is VERY tricky to make work with this new system mainly because of spells. However, treat spells like better weapons then it can work. About showing Skill Total outside of combat: AGREE, this has been a long standing suggestion.

Many questions, however: --Will revenants remain, but be unaggresive to skulled players. --Will PvP anywhere servers remain in some capacity? --If PvP servers, will they keep auto-skull, +1 worlds, and unique PvP drops (corrupted, brawlers) for those risking --Will restrictions be placed on GE such as buying limits, time limits on buying requests (ex 3 days) in compensation for return of free trade --What are effects of dying to NPC's or environment in the wilderness? --What are effects of killing a player who has not yet picked up loot from another player kill (ie pile jumping)? Will the loot disappear? --Will there be a version of loot share for PvP so clans can see drops of other clan mate? --What are effects of a gravestone that crumbles? One suggestion was, only blessed gravestones will have items available for looting to encourage even strangers to bless. --How many accounts are expected to be banned prior to free-trade return? --Are ideas in place to encourage players to risk wealth when taking part in PvP ie discourage 1 iteming. --What rules are in place concerning the use of non-tradeables (fire cape, quest capes, chaotics, etc) in the Wilderness. Will there be loot drops ala anchor?

Which changes the point, how? Jagex has a system in place to turn monsters non-aggressive based on the type of defensive bonus you have and not your combat level. Nit picking the details doesn't change the fact I answered your question with an in game example oh appologies, let me catch up on game called Runescape that for a few years seem to have things called non-combat skills, mini-games and quests that seem to give players benefits in combat without adding to their combat level. I was giving examples, just not in an exhaustive way as it has to be a short poll. However, even in this thread people note that Dng, Firemaking, Herblore and Slyr for example offer items inaccessible outside of the skills that do offer benefits in combat. Are the benefits enough to merit inclusion in a combat level formula or exclusion to PvP combat? Oh, I guess Jagex never radically redid large elements in the game before. We're still using 2d graphics with only program based graphics engines. By your example, the entire combat level system is unfair because a level 138 in immune to all attacks by a gang of level 87 pkers. Plus, he's immune to being attacked by multiple level 90's if he stays out of multicombat areas that make up half the wilderness. So apologies if you can't see these simple responses to your simple problems put forth. At least other posters brought up legitimate issues, but you're just grabbing at straws. However, to answer your poorly thought out example, the level 138 in Torval would not be immune to others if A) he goes higher in the wilderness increasing the number of lower levels able to fight him or B) another person risking similar boosting armor to raise combat levels to similar levels. Plus, if no one can attack him, he can't attack others. Kind of ruins the point of him trying to PK others. However, he just won't be bothered by cheap pkr's that don't want to risk anything expensive. If he didn't want to fight, he would stay out of the Wilderness after all. And that he can't be KO'd without a lot of effort is kind of the point of having heavy armor, lots of food, lots of prayer, etc however that's the combat system and not about combat levels. The triangle is represented well in Dungeoneering. The problem with RS proper is that there's far too many legacy items to bring about some balance. Jagex is attempting it with soakage and the high level equipment so that's cool. To be fair, I've stepped back from talking about the triangle and focused more on just combat levels. Even that, I've pulled more away from things like food, potions and tertiary skills/quests that offer minor boosts in some capacity. Instead, it seems easiest to point out how level 138's are being impacted with end game items wrt combat.

You say this, and in the same breath say Jagex should control buy limits on items. Basically, you are saying Jagex should institute free trade over here, and then you walk 10 steps and now you only have harshly restricted trade. But wait, taxes are a form of control, and last I checked, they cost additional money onto purchases. But I thought you said: Yeah, why would Jagex make something useful inconvenient? They've never done that. Why, the abyss is used and no one gets skulled and loses their prayer. Because if they made the abyss inconvenient, nobody would use it. And of course, trees don't die. If they died, and Jagex required a payment to ensure they don't die without checking on them, nobody would farm that way. Basically, spare me the economic meltdown doom and gloom if Jagex put a tax or restrictions on one form of trade (GE) when there's a less convenient but more profitable form of trade (p2p). Anyone that's played this game and/or has experience in the outside world knows people will spend more for convenience. That's the reason major highways have tolls, and still get traffic. Cause people hate stopping at tons of red lights. Once free trade is re established, the GE moves from essential to very convenient. I can see Jagex putting buying restrictions on such convenience (taxes, bulk limits, auto ending of buying requests, etc)

Well, what's the problem then? Since people are doing it for free, life goes on regardless of how the GE works. If the GE disappeared, you're stuck with the same issue Then no need for sales tax for normal purchases. Jagex can introduce a tax for bigger bulk purchases to encourage p2p trades. Remember, without price limits the GE becomes even more convenient. And as you pointed out, this will then give purpose to all the good semaritans listed in your first paragraph. With hundreds of thousands trading on six slots, we won't see a bottleneck. Without price limits, prices will find their player evaluated price very quickly. Plus, the prices listed will still just be suggestions, so if they're a little off it doesn't matter. Nothing is being controlled. You have FREE TRADE. If you don't like the GE then you DON'T USE IT! With restricted trade, yes, what I suggested would be very bad. However, now, Jagex needs to return power to the positive merchant class. You know, the guys that collected items in small amounts to sell in bigger amounts. With the GE, such a class of people just won't exist and I think RS will be more the poorer for it. I kindly disagree

Jagex is way ahead of you on that. In the new dungeons, the NPC's are now made non-aggressive based on your defense level, so being +200 defense bonus makes them not attack. It's a simple matter to apply to that idea to all NPC's. So now, walking around with full melee armor makes you less of a target to melee monsters, but more likely to be attacked by magic based NPCs. Not wearing any armor makes you more of a target to both. If you think about it, that would make more sense. Of course, in case of NPC's, it's about what you wear and not what you're carrying in inventory. With pvp, it's about what you have in inventory, as you can quickly don and switch.

There will be no limits in free trade IF AND ONLY IF you trade with other players. If you want to use the GE, then you can abide by it's bulk buying limits. Want to buy 5 mill D. Bones, either do it slowly with the GE saving your time while you do other things, or do it fast but having to waste time trying to buy it from other players. So, how much is your time worth? At least the GE does not have price limits. That will be the best thing.

A) Again, it's what you're carrying, not what you're wearing. Changing armor won't change what you're carrying. That's in the first post and explained throughout. B) I pointed out later, and edited the first post to point out that the game now has a plethora of combat level 138's. From there on out, unless the system changes, they will have the same combat level. Yet each and every updated weapon and armor and spell and potion will make these guys more and more powerful. However, you did say this is just disagreement so that's fair. Right now, we're only at level 80 armor and weapons, so imagine when level 85 and 90 weapons and armor get introduced. In addition, these items are EXPENSIVE either in time and/or gp. However, guys with enormous combat potential via wearing expensive armor are still prey to guys with very low combat potential by 1 item. If nothing else, altering the combat level system to take into account AT LEAST weapons and armor and spells can encourage the use of high level armor in risky PvP areas.

Why? Just buy them from other people. Of course, you MAY have to charge a little higher than the GE prices, but nothing is stopping you from hiring 30 people to buy them for you at cost +10%. OMG, it'll be like the return of real merchanting where those that need large bulk depend on people willing to collect items in bulk, or to utilize middlemen to obtain a final result. Basically, keep the buying limits on amounts in the GE, but remove cost and any selling limits (if those ever existed). If you need to go outside those limits, use other players via free trade. Now that I think about it, with free trade, Jagex could make the GE more restrictive and even add a 2% sales tax. Thanks for the idea Triquos. I'm gonna visit the suggestion subforum on RSOF now. TBH.... The limit on plates is stupid. It took me a 4 days to get the Iron plates I needed for making my Iron titans, and that included getting 2 other friends to help me. Personally think that limit should be scrapped or increaed. However things like runes etc do need a limit to prevent being bought out. However, now there won't be trade limits between players. That'll encourage some players to gather large amounts from many players ie take time out of their life to gather items in small amounts. They will then sell to you at a larger price, but in larger amounts saving you the time they invested. How much their time spent and your time saved is worth is then being negotiated. Positive merchanting if you will. The above was not possible with trade limits.

Not combat, just what actually determines combat level. Consider level 138's. From now on, barring some skill that impacts combat levels, they are not getting any higher. They're technically at their peak. Yet, we know with more and more high level gears these level 138's will become more and more powerful despite staying at the same level. Is it then unreasonable to suggest Jagex should seriously consider to allowing combat items in inventory (not just worn) to actually determine combat level? Beyond that, could other items (potions, foods, spells, etc) also be used to determine combat level?

Not only will the bulk limits stay, I'd wager Jagex makes the GE bulk trades even more restrictive. ---------------------------------------- With the return of Free Trade, and the removal of price limits at the GE it's likely Jagex will do something really cool: -Make the GE more restrictive on the BULK AMOUNT of things you can buy -Add a "sales tax" on all completed sales, charged to the buyer -Add a "bulk tax", by option, to allow more purchases per hour. Why I think this? Well, Jagex currently has limits with respect to non-consumable and consumable items. With trade limits, it was impossible to try to pay higher to get faster results. As such, Jagex still needed the bulk limits to be high cause players were reasonably restricted to the GE. However, NOW, it's entirely possible to hire others to buy outside the bulk limits. Hire 100 people on promise of cost +10% and you now can buy 10,000 items per four hours. I think Jagex will counter such practices, yet still encourage positive merchanting by doing the above changes. -First, they'll be more restrictive on amounts one can buy (ex: only 10 per hour). -All sales have a small tax to remove gp from the game (such a tax would be passed on by a merchanter to a bulk buyer) in preparation for the coming of the merchant class. -People who want to buy more than the limits (by passing a merchanter) will have to pay a higher tax (1% more for every 10 extra per four hours for example).

In that case, I also want my combat level lowered if I'm only using ranged but my combat level is melee based. And I also want it lowered if I'm not using my prayer. If items impacted combat level, then having range items would raise in in the range combat capacity ie your str and atk levels are over shadowed by your rng skill and range items. About prayer, it's been suggested before that one can "deactivate" prayer at the prayer guild so that it doesn't impact your combat level. This would put it on par with summoning where not having scrolls in inventory for a certain time remove the impact on your combat level. The same idea could be modified to account for herblore IF AND ONLY IF Jagex included more lower level untradeable potions with useful benefits. Then herblore can fairly affect combat level, but only if you carry untradeables.

Guys, consider from the following angle If items increase combat levels: Players that are already skill combat 138. Those with the best (and likely most expensive) gear most likely have the highest item combat level. Such players risking such money can only be attacked by players with equally high item combat levels, who most likely are also risking a lot of money. Therefore, wimpy level 138 with only a dragon claw can't 1 item these guys cause his item combat level is too low. Three skill combat 138's, but only 2 can fight each other and have chance at reward. Instead of pures having deceptively low numbers, you now have a system where you want the highest combat level to have a chance to fight and kill guys wearing very expensive stuff. Granted, it would help matters if Jagex makes going into the wilderness automatically skull with no item protect then.

Why? Just buy them from other people. Of course, you MAY have to charge a little higher than the GE prices, but nothing is stopping you from hiring 30 people to buy them for you at cost +10%. OMG, it'll be like the return of real merchanting where those that need large bulk depend on people willing to collect items in bulk, or to utilize middlemen to obtain a final result. Basically, keep the buying limits on amounts in the GE, but remove cost and any selling limits (if those ever existed). If you need to go outside those limits, use other players via free trade. Now that I think about it, with free trade, Jagex could make the GE more restrictive and even add a 2% sales tax. Thanks for the idea Triquos. I'm gonna visit the suggestion subforum on RSOF now.

First off, thanks for the detailed post. I'm going to trim it, but I did read it. Because: *snip* Wasn't going for detailed numbers so those were rough off the cuff. Plus, you'll see above I realized that even my example with the pure doesn't give the pure an advantage unless it's a dm w/o armor or something. Plus, protect prayers are still op for the level one can get them, but that's another thread. Great points though so thanks. I'll be honest, I hear about the triangle more with PvP. For PvM, bosses aside, I guess one could say Jagex needs to introduce a way for all armor to degrade over time when taking hits. That introduces a training cost that foods are creating keeping it on par with costs involved with range and mage. Again though, PvM may be something for another thread as your combat level is irrelevant when it comes to monsters for the most part. Not all, but I wouldn't say none either. Just from the poll, most would prefer skills to determine potential numbers, which to be fair reflects your point. When the wild comes back, there'll be more than just issues with combat levels. It'll be problems with what can and cannot be used with PvP, in addition to how untradeables that greatly impact combat will work. You say someone wearing full Torva and a Divine is crazy, but what if they could have the equivalent in untradeable, regainable armor via a quest or skill? It's only crazy because of the cost attached to the items, but doesn't detract from the fact that these things do add combat ability (only apparent when worn though). Now, it's not about combat level, cause really you hit the nail on the head. Now it's about guys with all 99's and who has the best gear. If you think about, perhaps they'll love the idea that they can carry all this stuff which puts them at a level outside being attacked by a guy with 99's just 1-iteming. A level 138 with decked out gear could be a 380 (pulling number out my rear), while the other 138 with dragon claws is only a 190. At least then, the decked out guy is approached by another equally decked out guy (ie risking similar amounts). Kind of on approach from the opposite angle, but valid I think. Besides, we've got our level 80 armor and weapons in part, soon there'll be 85's, then 90's, then 93's, then 96's then Jagex will raise the skill cap where maybe is about skill level again. These higher level items will be impacting combat, but only for a select few that choose to use them. Something like the above might encourage more players to risk them in combat, so long as it's a reasonable risk with some certainty of reward. Once again though, thanks for the reply. You point about pures and specific orders did help me narrow in on the idea that really we're talking about end game items for guys already maxed out in skills.

Im trying to stay lean, not turn into Arnie. Well there's your problem. You want advice when it's already apparent you know it all. Trust us, stop asking for a six-pack when you ain't got a chest to put it in. Want a six-pack? Just lose fat by eating less but balancing it with equal calories in good fats, good carbs and protein. Like it's already been said, muscle definition is just about losing fat but does not mean you have better health or strength. Want actually strength, health, and strong abs? Build you over-all strength with something like Mark Rippetoe's book "Starting Strength", drinking a gallon of milk a day like he advises (build up to that oven two to three weeks genious), then later use a gpp program like CrossFit mixed with Paleo or Zone Diet to turn into a healthy, physically fit person. Then again, there's always liposuction and ab paint.