ISREAL63

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First off do not play with my words i said they turned into Terrorist bases, Meaning after leaving it. Second You got your facts wrong Gaza was given in 2005.

So how do you negotiate with terrorists who terrorize you daily? Don't say give up more land because it isn't working don't forget Israel gave up the South of Lebanon and Gaza only to have both turned into a terrorist base for more terrorism. Terrorist don't negotiate they terrorize. As i already said Israel can't negotiate with terrorists meaning the Palestinians terrorist organization Hamas. Please read the links it might help you understand.

Did it ever occur to that Abbas head of the Palestinian Authority is not the majority. Abbas pushed of the the Palestinian election because he knew that he would lose and Hamas would gain control. This means that most Palestinians support a terrorist group that Israel can't negotiate with. Lets not forget the Landslide victory of the Palestinian Election in 2006

you are right talks can only be through Israel and the Palestinians. However the Palestinian Authority is meant to represent all of the Palestinian and Israel can't make a deal with only part of them. As long as hamas the terrorist group represents a great part of the Palestinian, Israel can't negotiate. What you are saying doesn't justify going against everything that already has agreed upon.

1) Israel is not negotiating a two-state solution with Hamas but with Fatah (as representatives of the Palestinian Authority). Hamas has been the predominant group that has been firing rockets into Israel not Fatah. Conflating the two seperate groups is just not a representation of what is really happening. 2) Your counter point completely failed to tackle the point I raised. Getting back to the overall subject of the thread: On a personal level, the release of Gilad Shalit is a wonderful thing for him and his family. However, the only people that benefit from this are the two groups that are intransigent and preventing any hope of a two-state solution Likud (and more widely Natanyahu's right wing coalition) and Hamas. The release of the 1,000 detainees will be a big short term boost to Hamas but they have played their last card now having clearly feeling threatened by the popularity of Abbas's actions at the UN. This release of 1,000 prisoners for 1 kidnapped Israeli soldier may convince them that capturing more soldiers in the future. Likewise, Netanyahu is using this to gain favour with the Israeli public which isn't helpful either considering how he deliberately circumvented the Oslo Accords (after vowing not to) and considering his willingness to undermine any hope of negotiation with the PA. Yet again, the warmongers on both sides win. This where you are wrong Israel will not be negotiating a deal with only half of the Palestinians but with all of them. Meaning as long as hamas a Palestinians terrorist continues its terrorism Israel can't talk peace with them. The Palestinians are all one group of people its a 2 state solution not 3. One for the Jews and one for the Arabs not One for the Jews and 2 for the Arabs Counter point is exactly correct to what you said. As The Gabe said it is not Israel but Abbas who is undermining the peace process. Abbas going to the UN is against all agreements in till now.

How can you negotiate a deal when one side is committing terrorism daily and firing rockets at innocent civilians daily. It isn't a one sided street. Forced to act that way? .No one is ever forced to act this way. You always have the chose if commit terrorism and murder or not. You are right the State of Israel didn't exist 70 years ago but neither did Palestine. But Israel did exist 2000 years ago but Palestine never existed at all. So i find it very ironic that "Israel was created out of thin air" because it wasn't but Palestine was created out of thin air. Do i even need to say how antisemitic that sounds.

You think Israel is the only country whose military warns civilians in advance to evacuate? You seriously think that basic military tactic frees their military of all consequences? It doesn't, and like I said even without extraordinary civilian casualties the attack was still able to cause widespread economic and moral harm to the general population. And I'm not trying to say Israeli leaders didn't say something, I'm saying that they are lying/not telling the whole truth and that they have motives hidden from general publicity, just like any government. I'd argue that an entity that dumps white hot phosphorous on the public is committing an act of terror, so Hamas is far from the only group terrorizing people. Calling up saying, yes because you commit terrorism in your house please leave it so we can destroy it without killing you. No other country has done such a thing. It wasn't Israel fault that the economy was harmed it was the one that resorted to terrorism the Palestinians were. I alreadysaid 2-3 soldiers broke orders and broke international law but these is your only argument a few soldiers doing wrong when a whole terrorist organization commits terror which you seem to be leaving out.

I just asked what was your source. I am not ignoring your argument but you are ignoring mine. You are leaving out how israel went out its way to warn Palestinians, which was a major part of the war. What country in the world tells people about its military operation before they happen, only Israel to avoid civilians deaths but again you like to leave this part out. The main point of the attack was to stop Hamas from bombing Israel. Are you trying to argue what Israel said? Its a fact. Yes i am pointing out how Hamas fought because of they way they did there was many more civilian deaths. The only one who is terrorizing the Gaza strip is hamas a terrorist organization Here is the son of the founder of Hamas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLjwe2b40YA

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism. Why does it matter if it's the Gaza Strip? Why not Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt? Wouldn't attacks from there be just as bad? At the pr sent only the Gaza strip is being used as a terrorist base. :wink:

I understood exactly what you said you said that "Israel needs to make the first move for peace", Israel did only to have it used for terrorism against Israel. The Gaza Strip is not a tiny gift. I know you said that the Palestinians needs to make serious change, and i agree, but in till this happen there can't be peace not when one of the peace partner daily act to destroy the other partner. It is the Palestinians turn they need to stop using the Gaza Strip to commit terrorism.

Oh ok when reading what someone wrote it isn't always easy to understand that is sarcasm. Anything in this thread i take seriously because it is a serious topic, sorry if i miss understood you. No i am not saying that they are not human, i have stated before how Israel before operation cast lead dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel has gone out its way to avoid civilian deaths. I am talking about operation cast lead in which Israel put up with the bombardment of rockets and mortars for years, but it started coming at 200 a day in which Israel finally responded. i don't think that there was unnecessary killing on the Israeli side there was mistakes but that happens in any war. i said above how Israel went out of its way to avoid such deaths. Most of Israeli think this way to including me, they want to coexist. But the terrorist attacks are what keeps that from happening. Israel already did the first step by giving up the Gaza strip only to have it used as a terrorist base. So why should Israel give more and still receive nothing but terrorism in return.

You are right just the pro Israel posters which is basically me. Anyway you are right lets get back on topic No, but most civilian causalities are a result of that confrontation in which Israel is heavily criticized on when is isn't Israel's fault Israeli soldiers don't walk around anymore on Palestinian streets so i am not sure what your question is You are right it isn't that simple, but in war what can you do let the enemy win or destroy him? I understood your point and i support it, but i do believe that israel is good but it seems not because of how it is forced to fight. So i was explaining why it might seem bad

I haven't brought up, even if The Holocaust it is relevant, but i haven't brought it up at all in this topic. But since it is brought it is a major player in Israel's right to exist whether you like it or not that is a fact. You right he wasn't flaming me just accusing me for doing something i didn't do. You are right Collateral damage has its limits but what do you do when someone threatens to kill you but hides behind civilians to do it, and it is the only way he fight do you let him keep on killing your soldiers or do you kill the terrorist so he can't try to kill again. So what is the limit when it comes to terrorism?

Ignoring the past few posts of arguing, I'd just like to point out that this is one of the more cabbage remarks I've seen. Although I see the point you're trying to make, I find your sentence quoted above rather insulting. Also: Both sides are biased, and influenced by media one way or another, though I believe Hamas is the only one brainwashing children into believing what the above posted videos would have them believe. It's beyond disturbing. I doubt there are any Israeli children's cartoons like that. Hamas is a terrorist group, the Israeli government is not, but governments also do things "above the law." Neither side (Palistinian/Israeli) is the good or evil one, however I would say Hamas is evil. Most of that was established in the first few pages of the thread. Personally I think The_Gabe stated a number of valid points on this thread, but some people appear to only care about is arguing for the sake of arguing. Sigh. I for the most part agree with you. The problem is that when fighting a terrorist organization Israel is forced to fight on the terrorist ground. The terrorist chose where they want to fight and they hide in UN schools and other places which doesn't leave Israel with much of a chose. In which is a lose lose situation because they can kill the terrorist and have a few civilian causalities due to the terrorist or they can leave the terrorist in which he can come back and commit terrorism again. Please read the whole topic before picking a few words to post on :shame: . If you actually were posting with knowledge of what has been said instead of trying to flame me you would have noticed that it was brought up on the pro Palestine line :wink: . But anything to flame me instead of going on topic. :shame:

I really i don't understand what you are trying to say here Proof that the holocaust is a fact, i am not going to argue with you over that. Again i really don't understand what you are trying to say here? Resorting to terrorism does make them bad blowing themselves up to kill, firing rockets to terrorize the list goes on. I don't see you as a bad guy to :) but i am not a victim of anything but being a witness to the Palestinians terrorism. I do think that if you see enough proof you will slightly change your view. They also achieved that ratio by planning for the attack months in advance, even while they were negotiating with Palestine for a ceasefire; I wouldn't call that acting defensively. And despite the ratio, the fact remains that during Operation Cast Lead both sides committed violations of human rights and are guilty of war crimes. I'd also stand to guess that the crippled infrastructure from the bombings hasn't saved any lives; a sentiment echoed by the UN Fact Finding Mission: Everyone before going to war plans but you are just trying to make Israel out to be the bad guy. Only 2-3 incidence involving 2-3 soldiers each time for israel is what you base your whole argument over. Yes a few soldiers didn't follow orders but in every army you have those types of soldiers i can show you many times in other army's where this has happened. Unlike the IDF who had a few men not following orders and breaking international law. The other side of the war fought by the Palestinians terrorist group Hamas, who consistently broke international law forcing israel to fight against them in UN schools there are many examples of how they broke the law. As a whole group they broke the law unlike the IDF which had individuals who did. First off the UN fact finding mission was very bias not stating the 10 years of bombardment from rockets. It only criticized Israel. Second the writer of it later took it back saying he had mistaken. Also don't bring me a random quote or i am going to assume your wrote it without showing your source

Actually no i did, i understood. It was previously stated in this thread that the average deaths in a armed conflict is 10 civilian death for 1 combatant. In Operation cast lead Israel went out of its ways dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel broke this 10:1 ratio and achieved a ration of 1:1.5 meaning for ever civilian that died 1.5 terrorist were killed. In every conflict there are civilian deaths but the fact that Israel achieved such a amazing ratio seems to be forgotten and left out You are making a random accusation, but nice try Here is the true brainwashing. please find me anything lie this for Jewish children. Here is what Palestinians watch growing up. While Israeli children watch all American cartoons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkNE__TiMZo&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJDNXztFmS0 Are you denying the holocaust? Freedom fighters? you mean terrorist but i guess you like to play with words these " Freedom fighters" fire daily rockets and mortars at Israelis civilians, that is called being a terrorist not a Freedom fighter. You obviously don't read here you just randomly post i said before that i don't watch Israeli TV i watch American. But again you just like to attack me instead of going on subject. Good you have your opinion, but you again seem to not read anything in this thread you just try to get a quick post to attack me. If you would have read before i said and proven how daily Palestinians terrorist attack Israeli civilians.

You funny. I guess you are are blind from the truth so i will show you a few videos of Hamas the terrorist organization firing rockets from UN schools. Mortar Bombs Shot from UN School in Gaza 29 Oct. 2007, by Palestinians terrorist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=player_embedded Note the secondary explosion proof that there was weapons there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwP_LusgPAw&feature=relmfu The Palestinians terrorist chose to fight urban warfare fighting with civilians right next to them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2m4HbiIKKA&feature=relmfu Hamas terrorist attack IDF soldiers from a UN school. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBf-Vh4pNg&feature=relmfu Hamas Booby Trapped School and Zoo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHhs9ihSmbU&feature=related

No that is not 100% true in the end the Palestinians terrorist aim to terrorize threw murder. Israeli soldiers only kill when they are threatened, this is a big difference. You can say what you want but in the end you are the brainwashed one, who is to blind to see the truth. I don't watch Israeli TV, i have a satellite connected to American TV nice try :shame: .

You are right later this year i am enlisting in the army, to protect my homeland from Palestinians terrorist organizations. We don't learn to kill we learn to survive, to stop a terrorist in his tracks so he can't kill us. You are wrong they join terrorist groups to commit acts of terror against the Israeli people. I am not saying all Palestinians are terrorist i am saying a good percentage of them are, One third of them support massacre as this one that is a big part of their people. Coming of age to some of them means a chance to fire rocket and mortars at Israeli civilians. As i said before they do raise killers not all but they do, as i said before 100,000 of the Palestinian youth will go to terrorist summer camps this year. To sum it up what you just said it a complete lie in order to serve your goal, that is not the way to debate. You debate on facts not on lie and your "personal experiences". I can give you many Jewish experiences to, but i prefer the facts then your word. In israel kid grow up watching cartoons like the rest of the world in gaza they watch stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&feature=player_embedded Here's the last thing I'll say in this thread. Israel makes everyone have an army training by 18. According to you, Palestinians do it earlier. Where's the diference? Besides the age. You are right every Israeli goes to the army, but only part actually have military training, in one of the most human armies in the world. They go to protect their families from Palestinians terrorist organizations who are sworn to destroy israel and deny Israel's right to exist. Unlike the Palestinians terrorist organizations who blow themselves up to kill Israeli civilians. The difference from the age is they are brought up hating and wanting to die for terrorism from the birth, as oppose to Jews who Enlist in a army (at age 18 not 0) not a terrorist organization like Palestinians. The Jews enlist to protect their homes from these Palestinians terrorist organizations.

I say that the Palestinians are the real children of Isaac. And who are you to challenge Gods people Mr. Pretender? Unless you can prove otherwise. What does that have to do with anything i said? it doesn't have anything to do with each other if you want to say something say it but not by posting random stuff. perception. Thin line between terrorist and freedom fighter. First off nice posting something unrelated to what i post again. No it is not a thin line Terrorist aim to kill innocent civilian which is what Palestinians terrorist attempted to do daily

I say that the Palestinians are the real children of Isaac. And who are you to challenge Gods people Mr. Pretender? Unless you can prove otherwise. What does that have to do with anything i said? it doesn't have anything to do with each other if you want to say something say it but not by posting random stuff.

You are right later this year i am enlisting in the army, to protect my homeland from Palestinians terrorist organizations. We don't learn to kill we learn to survive, to stop a terrorist in his tracks so he can't kill us. You are wrong they join terrorist groups to commit acts of terror against the Israeli people. I am not saying all Palestinians are terrorist i am saying a good percentage of them are, One third of them support massacre as this one that is a big part of their people. Coming of age to some of them means a chance to fire rocket and mortars at Israeli civilians. As i said before they do raise killers not all but they do, as i said before 100,000 of the Palestinian youth will go to terrorist summer camps this year. To sum it up what you just said it a complete lie in order to serve your goal, that is not the way to debate. You debate on facts not on lie and your "personal experiences". I can give you many Jewish experiences to, but i prefer the facts then your word. In israel kid grow up watching cartoons like the rest of the world in gaza they watch stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8&feature=player_embedded

Oh lawd, talk about putting words in one's mouth. Please show me where I say anything about Israel not having a right to exist. First off i didn't put words in your mouth so don't lie, i said what i understood from your post. You said if Israel just got up and left their would be know problem.

So basically you are trying to say the Jewish State of Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Good to know where you stand.