ISREAL63

Palestinians want to live peacefully, the blockade on their city prevents them from doing so. They fight because they want freedom from the tyranny of the Israeli blockade. If they really want peace how those firing rockets at Israel's civilian promote peace? You seem to always avoid admitting that they do fire rockets at Israel civilians. Or how about the murder of a teenager on the way back from school but died at the hand of terrorism. Those this sound like they really want peace? Hamas is a political organization first and militant second. I've explained that many times. Those same entities (not the US but most of the international community) have agreed that Israel is responsible for many war crimes and crimes against humanity. If you take their word that Hamas is a terrorist group then you must also take their word that Israel commits atrocities. It isn't only Israel that calls Hamas a terrorist group, Its also The USA, Also in the Canadian terrorist list and The EU has Hamas and a few other terrorist groups to. So its not only Israel i think they really are a terrorist organization. You are right they have a political agenda to destroy Israel. Hamas is first a terrorist group and second they have a political agenda. Or can it be they they are all wrong? Israel has the other choices. Only presenting those two is a logical fallacy, specifically a false dichotomy. You are right there are but Israel tried the other choice which is peace, but Hamas prefer terrorism. In 2005 Israel gave the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, only to have it used as a terrorism base against Israel. So why doesn't Hamas stop its terrorism and leave peacefully. So much wrong with this fact. First, the blockade has been in place since before 2008. Second, Israel uses the blockade to ban many harmless goods like construction materials. Perhaps it is because Israel doesn't want the people in Gaza to rebuild the schools and hospitals they bombed during the 2008 war. False, Israel bans many essential goods from Gaza specifically essential construction materials. That means there are shortages of things like nails in Gaza. I dont blame the activists for not wanting to turn their cargos over to the Israelis when much of what they wanted to deliver wasnt anything harmful but only bare essentials that the Israelis have attempted to take away from the Palestinians. So he got the year off by one year, the blockade started in 2007 not 2008. Harmless goods like construction materials are used to make rocket and mortars (nails are a key element in them) to be fired at Israel. They don't sound that harmless any more do they? Funny if terrorist weren't firing Rockets and mortars at Israel form schools then Israel wouldn't have bombed them, so what should Israel have done let the Terrorist go? Here is a video from the official IDF channel on you tube this was filmed by a UAV flying overhead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI I reckon it is because of the track record of the IDF, they didnt trust them for jack [cabbage]. I mean the IDF actually fired on a Red Cross convoy during the Gaza war. How more untrustworthy can people get? I am not saying this didn't happen but would you show me a article please. The IDF can be trusted In the end Israel delivered the aid to Gaza These arent your facts, you just copied and pasted them from another source. What is the point of discussion if you dont even discuss with your own arguments? Perhaps you have none. Anyways, none of the ships planned attacks. If they had one would think they might have brought actual weapons along like firearms. Just peaceful activists, nice try with making the Turks look like terrorists too. It looks to me like it was planned, sound like peaceful activists to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXDev2wXVA&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I6XL2pzguE&feature=player_embedded Actually, they were within the law to use weapons against the Israelis. It was international waters and legally boarding their ships was an act of piracy. The people on the flotilla had no weapons. There were knives because people on ships need to cook and knives are needed for that. There were powertools because powertools are one of the things Israelis dont allow into Gaza as well as because powertools are needed on ships. They cut rods for construction into crude weapons when they saw their ships were about to be boarded in international waters. This is a quote from international law They were trying to breach the blockade and refused to stop. So Israel had the right to sop and search them This was never proved. The next days yielded that they were in fact only activists. They knew they had terrorist connection but they didn't know to where, later IHH Terrorist Ties Confirmed Read more at: http://www.investigativeproject.org/1991/ihh-terrorist-ties-confirmed Perhaps Palestinians should using terrorism to kill Jews in Israel.

AS you said some but most Jews support their homeland in Israel.

[hide=Here are the facts of the flotilla] Fact 1: The Gaza Strip is an armed camp, ruled with an iron fist by a repressive Hamas regime that has not only repeatedly pledged itself to the annihilation of Israel and the torpedoing of any prospects for Middle East peace, but has made good on its pledges by firing approximately 10,000 missiles, rockets, and mortar bombs at Israeli civilians over the past several years for the express purpose of killing or wounding those civilians or, at a minimum, terrifying them. Fact 2: The United States, the European Union, and the international community have recognized that Hamas is a terrorist enterprise, which surely is beyond dispute. Fact 3: When faced with an armed enemy committed to its destruction, which has done its very best to make war against Israeli civilians, Israel has two choices: to try to protect its civilians from those attacks, or to simply shrug its shoulders and hope that the attacks stop. There is, quite simply, no nation on earth that would choose the latter course, and no reasonable and fair-minded person who would expect it to. Fact 4: In an effort to stop the missiles from being manufactured and used against it, and only for that reason, Israel has been forced to try to keep the materials used for that purpose out of the Gaza Strip. This is an obvious step needed to prevent the kind of war that caused so much destruction in 2008, when the increase in attacks by Hamas and its allies against Israeli civilians eventually triggered an Israeli response to stop them. There can be no real doubt that Israel is entitled to keep weapons of war from being used against it. Fact 5: Israel repeatedly, and expressly, made clear to those who organized the effort to break the embargo that it would willingly take all of the humanitarian aid that was on their boats and transfer it to Gaza, without delay. All that Israel wanted was to be able to ensure that materials were, in fact, humanitarian aid, rather than the sorts of materials used for launching attacks that are supplied to Hamas by the Iranians and others. The organizers of the flotilla refused â because, of course, getting humanitarian aid to Gaza was not what their gambit was really about. Fact 6: Israel regularly provides humanitarian aid to Gaza, and volunteering to get the humanitarian aid from the ships to Gaza was consistent with Israeli policy all along. And Fact 7, which is now coming to light several days after the initial and predictable barrage of criticism of Israel: Those on at least one of the ships planned all along to attack Israelis when they sought to enforce the embargo, and indeed, their attack on the Israelis was brutal. This fact has been starkly captured in video widely circulating around the Internet, showing the vicious beatings initiated by those on board one of the ships against Israelis, who for their part had been instructed to refrain from using any force if at all possible. Indeed, in Israel the military is being criticized for failing to adequately prepare its naval personnel to anticipate the attacks on them from the boats, and for being too passive, and too trusting, in its approach to the flotilla. As for the evidence that certain individuals of those responsible for orchestrating this tragedy are linked to Al Qaeda and other representatives of the worst forces on the planet, the next days will likely yield more information. But the larger issue is this: Has the desire to blame Israel in certain quarters reached such an irrational frenzy that the fundamental facts of any issue relating to the Middle East conflict will reliably be overlooked? Are those who are committed to a fair-minded and reasonable analysis of that conflict prepared to insist that others who like nothing more than jumping to conclusions stop, pause, think, and consider the actual evidence? There will always be those who dont let facts to get in the way of their biases. But fair-minded people examine the evidence before forming conclusions, especially when emotions run high. Israel and the cause of peace in the Middle East is counting on them to do just that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkXDev2wXVA&feature=player_embedded http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1I6XL2pzguE&feature=player_embedded[/hide] That is correct, it is international waters and they have the legal right to use lethal force if necessary. Israel has a right to defend it self here are the reason why it was legal I never said that Jews and Zionist have the same mean but Israel is the Jewish homeland

Israel is a Jewish country pretty simple i will not call them Zionist because you use the word as a insult. The Jews were at war with the British i will quote what Das said before Meaning that there will always be civilians death but they hit their target and they hit it hard it was in response Operation Agatha, it was a war. This is how they fight no military base or soldiers there, Just the murder of innocent people on vacation. This is the deference It isn't only Israel, Its also The USA, Also in the Canadian terrorist list and The EU has Hamas and a few other terrorist groups to. So its not only Israel i think they really are a terrorist organization

The deference between the Jews and the Palestinians is, the Jews they went after British soldiers which is basic war fare take down the enemy's army. The Palestinians have gone onto Israel blowing themselves up to cause civilian deaths, that is not basic warfare. Sounds ironic if you leave we won't fight you, if you don't we will fight you, If you leave we can't fight you because you aren't there to fight. Yet again you only attack me instead of discussing the topic. Why don't you say something on the topic in which you chose instead attacking me. So as i said before Why can't you just stay on topic you have posted before in the topic but you have never said anything constructive.

You seemed to forget that the bombing was called in and gave them a warning to evacuate, which they refused, and it was a response to Operation Agatha. This is another difference between the Jewish extremist and the Palestinian terrorist. Jews warned before they attacked. They had a target it involved the British headquarters. Incidence like this happen all the time where the British were warned to remove their troops and have the target blown up, that is how you fight not by blowing yourself up in a cafe.

The Jews didn't terrorize the British for the Balfour declaration. The Balfour declaration was made before the British mandate. With these 5 reason are there any problems? I see you like to repeat yourself so i will do the same. 4 out of these reasons fall under international law. The last one is very simple to avoid simply don't commit a act of terrorism so i repeat myself what is the problem with these reason?

With these 5 reason are there any problems? First off i don't know who tape the video and i don't know the background on it so i can't comment on what i don't know. You are right there probably are houses that were destroyed for no reason but most are for a good reason no system is perfect especially when it come to terrorism. Yes, it happened in every major war, the problem is - and i'm sure an intellectual like yourself will realize is that your "war" is mostly guerrilla warfare. It's easy to spot a Me Lei massacre in Vietnam - it's a hell of a lot harder to spot legit soldier kills in your "war". Warfare today is messy and social media has made mess up's harder to hide from. According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian to soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death. It's only rising as warefare changes. So http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/23/world/middleeast/23casualties.html?_r=2 You are 100% correct and there is little to do to stop it 10:1 ratio is very bad. In Operation cast lead Israel went out of its ways dropping hundreds of thousand of pamphlet warning about the raids and that if there houses were involved in terrorism they should leave it. The IDF made many calls warning people 5 minutes before bombing each building, the IDF also recorded every bombing on the satellite and later uploaded it to you tube for all to see. Israel broke this 10:1 ratio and achieved a ration of 1:1.5 meaning for ever civilian that died 1.5 terrorist were killed.

The fact that Hezbollah is a political party means of course they are going to be based in populated areas. It's not really an excuse. They are near civilians because they need to be to preform their primary role as a political organization. Like I said before, Hezbollah builds hospitals and schools for the Lebanese. Israel has a right to defend itself but not to kill innocent civilians. Israel attacked Hezbollah terrorist headquarters Article 28 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations. Yet Hezbollah still built its military (terrorist) headquarters in civilian areas. It wasnt Israel choice where Hezbollah would built its terrorist headquarters. You are right Hezbollah has built building for public use but the doesn't make it up for For being a terrorist organization. And while we are on the topic of human shields. Lets not be bias and show what the true terrorist organization does here is a link to Hezbollah using Human shields which resulted in the deaths of 56 civilians Here is a video of what israel did to prevent non combatants from being killed, in operation cast lead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQQFJXMrg4&feature=related I gave you the 5 reason for Israel destroying homes why don't you tell me what is the problem with them instead of saying that it is not important

I never claimed that they weren't officially declared a terrorist group. My point is that fighting Hezbollah is a bit of a bogus reason to target civilian areas. Hezbollah are not only a militant group. They also fund schools, hospitals, mosques, they run a judicial system. Hezbollah is a butcher, a doctor, a construction worker, a child. It's the same as any other political party only with a militant agenda. Fighting Hezbollah in a civilian area is wrong agree but just because terrorist hide behind civilians doesn't mean that Israel can't attack and kill the terrorist. Israel has a right to defend itself even if a terrorist is hiding in a civilian areas, it wasn't Israel who chose the battleground it was the terrorist organization called Hezbollah . It is a terrorist organization with a political agenda to destroy Israel. I will repeat this quote and explain 1. Deterrence this is pretty simple don't commit a terrorist attack and if you do i was your choice and poor one for that you have to pay the price. So the solution to it is don't commit acts of terror. 2,3,4 and 5 Counter-terrorism, Self-defense and Forcing out- fall under what you said necessary for military operations.Meaning don't build weapons in your house or use it as base of operations. Don't hide in a house and if you do it was your choice not the solders. Self defense does this need explaing? Necessary for military operations. Rome, Israel what do they have to do with one another?

You are wrong a strait out lie here is a link to the Usa's list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Hezbollah is on that list so is Hamas, Hezbollah is part of the government in Lebanon but just because it is part of government doesn't mean its not a terrorist organization. You can't say that some can be terrorist in the organization and some can't be. Hezbollah started the 2006 Lebanon war, by the way don't say Israel started Hezbollah did by kidnapping Israeli soldiers. After proving that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with the goal to destroy Israel, Israel has the right to defend itself so yes it is allowed to bomb the headquarters of a terrorist organization even if the built it in the city so if Israel were to attack it there would be civilian deaths. That wasn't Israel fault it is Hezbollah fault. By the when you bring up America they started the war against a country not a terrorist organization after the took control they had to fight the terrorist but when they invaded they were fighting a army that had on uniforms not civilian clothes like Hezbollah the terrorist organization I have read that is were i got my original cause to destroy homes. here i will quote for you it Is there any problems with them please tell me That seems real realistic, where did you get that idea? it sound like you need a map to find where Siberia really is

I see you don't know the facts the only time Israel i bulldoze house is when. 1. Counter-terrorism, by destroying militant facilities such as bombs labs, headquarters, and offices, 2. Destroying a house of a terrorist after committing a act of terror. Israel has a right to defend itself and this follow under that category. If Israel didn't make a price for killing innocent civilians there would be many more attacks. When it comes down to it, it is the terrorist choice to kill innocent people and have his house destroyed or to be human and not to kill. You are 100% correct and they won't let that peace of truth come out. Hezbollah built its headquarters right in the most populated area of the city. They use schools, playgrounds and hospitals to hide and fire rockets at Israel, this doesn't leave israel much choice. Even though israel has to fight under this conditions it still has to take down the terrorist. Why can't you just stay on topic you have posted before in the topic but you have never said anything constructive only attack Mine and The Gabe's creditability.

You say i failed not me

i understand all your post i don't agree with them i guess you are mixing the 2 of them up. I remember it as 10k i later checked and it is 12k so now you are saying that a terrorist organization has not fired rocket at Israel? I am not the one who is blind and ignorant. You say that you live with Palestinians how about you check out what they are telling you and not believe everything you are told and check it out by yourself. Thank you for name calling when you realized that you are wrong that's how you back out?

Some countries did and some didn't. Kuwait for example took in many refugees but granted none of them citizenship. Jordan on the other hand granted millions of refugees citizenship. In fact now one of the biggest problems in Jordan is that Palestinians outnumber native Jordanians. Either way, it's not fair to just assume that it's okay to uproot people just because they had a place to go. Either way, this whole quote chain on this particular subject doesn't address my original claims anymore. As such they still stand. Israel also had a problem half of it was Jewish refugees forced out of their homes but Israel gave them citizenship. Only a small proportion of the total Palestinians still in Israel. Most are unable to obtain work permits, this perpetuates their poverty. Trust me, I've been to Ramala, I've been the Bethlehem, it's very sad to hear the stories these people have. I didn't know that Israel is responsible for providing them with work. The work permit that they can't obtain are to work in pre 67 Israel. Why should they be given those permits, before the intifada israel gave them work permits no problem after it Israel realized that terrorist were using it as a accesses point, and yes they are suffering from that but there is nothing Israel can do it has a right to defend itself. This means that Israel tried to help the Palestinian economy and it was working but terrorist took advantage of it so Israel had the right to deny work permits. Most Palestinians in camps have chosen to live in camps until they are able to return to the lands that are rightfully theirs. It's just taken them longer then they've expected. It is not the Arab leaders responsibility to accept the refugees. Ultimately the blame falls on the Israelis for making them refugees. Actually it is their leaders faults they should have told them to flee. They outnumbered the Jews and they were well armed as oppose to the Jewish underground that was a underground meaning it got what it could. Israel is not to blame for what the Arab leaders said and done . Abbas condemnation of Fogel massacre is true but one third of his people support it. So who is right I will quote you "They rarely miss their target" you are correct and Israel only targets terrorist Israel doesn't killed civilian on purpose but when a terrorist hides behind civilian it doesn't leaves Israel much of a chose. So yes their are civilian causalities but only because because of the terrorism. I am sorry you are saying Israel has never been a peaceful state what about the peace treaty with Jordan and Egypt. Or that it gave up the Gaza strip for the sake of peace instead it was bombarded with 12,000 rockets and has had a solider kidnapped it is a long list of terror attacks.

Why can't he Arab country where they fled accept them Israel did why can't they it isn't a one way street. First off there are 50,000 Palestinians work in Israel. As i stated before most weren't forced they were encourage by their leaders to leave. The Arab states that chased away most of its Jewish inhabitants, 1,002,270 people are not allowed to return to their homes instead israel accepted them and let them be apart of Israel. Why should Israel allow them to return when most left by their own free will. Why can't the Arab states grant them citizenship instead of letting them live in refugee camps. As i said before most were encouraging by their leaders. 11 Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948 they had 3000 Arab soldier in Jaffa they could have held off the Jewish underground till the Arab armies arrived. Instead the Arab leaders told them to flee and they did as told. Only some were forced out most were encourage by their leaders. You are right they also killed non British soldiers but they only targeted the British. Unlike the Palestinian Terrorist organization which target civilians the Jewish extremist did go into a home of a Arab and slaughter the whole family like what happen a few months ago in Itmar to the fogel family I am sorry when did Israel round up Palestinians at gun point and put them behind barbed wire?

Thanks for the background i wish everybody who stated their argument would so. What abuse would you be referring to? I don't know if you but there are 21 Arab countries with 300 million Arabs in them in the world. In israel the only Jewish state their is 1 million Arabs, That is 0.0033 percent of that Arab population that percentage of Arabs have more human rights then any Arab country, And Israel is not a Arab country. So i am not sure what you mean by they don't have basic human rights would you be willing to explain. To start off. In 1948 there were over one million Jews living in various Arab Muslim countries. Many of their communities dated back 2,500 years. Throughout 1947 and 1948 these Jews were persecuted and their property and belongings were confiscated. 1,002,270 Jews were forced out of their homes for simply being Jewish. Most of them fled to Israel and Israel accepted them. They were resettled in Israel at great expense, and without any offer of compensation from the Arab governments who confiscated their possessions. ON the other hand you had 826,000 Arab refugees from Israel. Since the Palestinians refused to accept an independent state of their own in 1948 the Arab states never gave them citizenship. Meanwhile, a leader of the Arab National Committee in Haifa, Hajj Nimer el-Khatib, said Arab soldiers in Jaffa were mistreating the residents. "They robbed individuals and homes. Life was of little value, and the honor of women was defiled. This state of affairs led many Arabs to leave the city under the protection of British tanks. This was under the encouragement of their leaders, they were expelled. This is just one example of many times that they were told by their leaders to flee and they would return of conquerors after they would push the Jews into the sea. I am not denying that some were forced out of their homes but most were encouraged by their leaders to leave. You are right there was extremist in the day of the British but they only target them. They didn't send their 12 year old child into a cafe to blow himself up. That is a big deference between the Jewish extremist and the Arab extremist. How have they reenacted their own abuse on the Palestinians? Please give a example i am not saying it didn't happen i just want something to work with You are forgetting why Israel closed its borders to Gaza because they were smuggling weapons and terrorists between the border. It is not Israel's fault that Egypt has closed its border to Gaza Israel is not to blame here.

Now i see what you are saying, basically they both believe in their ideas and stand by them. One more radical then the other but other then that they have a similar goal to succeed in what the believe in. Am i correct? if yes i agree but Lieberman hasn't harmed the peace proses like the leader of the terrorist organization run by Haniyeh. You basically got it. Israel gave up the Sinai for peace and so far has for the most part Egypt has kept its word to make peace with israel. Israel also signed a peace treaty with Jordan with is also kept till this day. Israel then gave up the Gaza strip to promote peace with the Palestinians but has not received peace instead it has been bombarded with 12,000 rockets and has had a solider kidnapped it is a long list of terror attacks. Even though the Palestinians failed to keep peace with israel in the Gaza strip Israel went along anyways and tried to create peace in the west bank, so it had a settlement freeze for 10 months in hope to renew the peace talks, Abbas head of the PLO decide after 9 months of the freeze that if israel would continue the freeze he would consider talking peace. What happen the first 9 months of the freeze? Why was he stalling? Israel has tried many ways to create peace only to have it shot down. I don't believe Israel is at fault here can you give me a example why israel would be at fault?

and why is that?

You are right there is 2 different beliefs, but one has tried to make peace and tried to Coexist. While the other one took the land that was given to them as a homeland and turned that land into a massive terrorist base with one goal to destroy Israel. So my question for you is what do you do when Israel wants peace and Hamas takes all it can get and then goes around and fires 12,000 rockets at its peace partner the one who is trying to Coexist with them? So what do you do when one wants peace and the other doesn't?

Last i check he was one of 120 members of the Israeli government. Hamas the terrorist organization that has one sole purpose and that is to destroy Israel at all cost meaning sending their children as suicide bombers to blow them selves up, is half of the Palestinian government. You can't even compare Lieberman to Ismail Haniyeh, Ismail Haniyeh is a terrorist head of the hamas terror organization. Lieberman is a member of the Israeli government voted in by democracy not like Ismail Haniyeh who took control by force. Murdering anyone who stood in his way. So if you are claiming that Lieberman is a terrorist instead of a member of a democratic government then that is wrong. Also you are saying that the barrier for peace is Lieberman? He isn't part of a terrorist organization. The Palestinian Authority is part of a government with a terrorist organization, that sounds like the true barrier here. So you can't accept the truth? if you read before my user name and Israel have nothing to do with one another. So why don't you bring proof instead of attacking me.

Why did Abbas wait for the end of the freeze he should of tried in the beginning to talk not at the end, he asked for another freeze in which he would consider talking. Israel's definition is the one that count when it comes to its borders see it that is theirs not Obamas I am sorry you problem with Lieberman, is that he called Arab members of the Knesset that meet with Hamas as "terror collaborators", they are why are they talking to a terror organization sworn to Israels destruction. Or that he threatened the Palestinian Authority to halt all terrorist activity or face wide-ranging attacks he is right Israel has a right to defend itself

I think it's worth noting that being a non-islamic person in countries like Iran means being treated like a second-class citizen. Things like jizya tax come to mind... :thumbdown: Anyway.. As Range_This11 implied, the lack of punctuation and continuous production one-sentence-posts by a certain individual here make for an annoying read. As far as the Israel-Palestine issue is concerned, I believe that both sides are at fault in their violence. The killing of innocents is never acceptable. Both have legit claims for the land, so it should be shared as such. Thanks for the advice i will try to keep it in mind

i am sorry next time will spend more time on the punctuation then the facts It isn't against international law for Israel to build on its own land not sure where you got that idea. It is Abbas's fault not Netanyahu that the last round of peace talks broke down there was a 10 month freeze set by Netanyahu to create talks when the freeze was coming to the end ( in the 10th month) Abbas said make it longer and i will talk how nice of him to remember last minute very convenient for him why could he talk at the beginning of the freeze? Whats you problem with Avigdor Leiberman?

it actually is pretty simple once you understand it I will explain in short Israel gave up the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians 2005 for the sake of peace but the Palestinians instead used it as a base for their terrorist attacks against Israel and then pretend like they hasn't fired 12,000 at Israel then they turn around and say "Would you kind enough to give us more land" just in a tone that sounds better