MY questions to extremest in fundamentalism...

[assassin_696]

No I didn't actually have a specific example that I was going to challenge you on, it was just a genuine question I wanted to ask.

 

 

 

The conflict in my mind is that you're both well educated and intelligent people, yet fundamentalists believe the Bible as literal fact (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

 

 

So I was just curious when (for example) an unspecified miracle clashed with all scientific evidence to the contrary what would give first, science or the Bible?

 

 

 

It's not an attack on the Resurrection, but to illustrate it, we all know that people don't rise from the dead. If you're hung up on a cross for several days (although Jesus apparently died quite quickly) and put in a hot tomb for a few days you don't spring back to life. That defies all evidence about death and decay. Yet many Christians believe in the Resurrection, presumbably because they believe God isn't constrained by the laws of nature.

 

 

 

I don't know really, it just seems...well I could say counter-intuitive but so is quantum mechanics. It just seems irrational, and unproven, and requiring a big leap of faith.

[magekillr]

meh...the Resurrection is the point of Christianity...without that then we wouldn't even have a faith...we'd be Jews waiting for the one to defeat sin.

[Satenza]

But thats not a reason to beleive in it.

[Barihawk]

Assassin, that's the principle of faith and miracles.

 

 

 

God created the laws of science, that does not mean he is limited by them.

[magekillr]

But thats not a reason to beleive in it.

 

 

 

i realize that...but to me evidence points towards a God, and things in the Bible just shout out to me (if you'd like i guess i'll go over those things)

 

 

 

Darwin once said "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case."

 

 

 

and just look at the cell:

 

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjexZ88wIno

[Satenza]

But thats not a reason to beleive in it.

 

 

 

i realize that...but to me evidence points towards a God, and things in the Bible just shout out to me (if you'd like i guess i'll go over those things)

 

 

 

Darwin once said "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case."

 

 

 

and just look at the cell:

 

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjexZ88wIno

 

 

 

"a God" however doesn't mean your God. I'm agnostic, i think being atheist is the same as being religious so i don't know whether a God does or does not exist. It would be crazy to say either way. However things like the video to me shout out that we are only the made up of particles and nothing more. I can see and agree why people could think a God does exist, but nothing at all points to a specific God.

[magekillr]

that's why i said things in the Bible...

 

 

 

things like...Jesus' genealogy.

 

 

 

in order to come up with a genealogy that matches his from fiction would take a hell of a lot of work..and if you can match it in your life time...by all means do so...and write it in Greek...which has stricter rules than english

 

 

 

characteristics of it:

 

 

 

number of words on your paper must be divisible by 7 no remainders

 

-number of letters also to be divisible by 7 no remainders

 

-number of vowels and consonants must ALSO be divisible by 7 no remainders

 

-number of words that begin with a vowel must be divisible by 7

 

-number of words that begin with a consonant must be divisible by 7

 

-the number of words that occur more than once must be divisible by 7

 

-the number of words that occur in more than one form must be divisible by 7

 

-the number of words that only occur in one form must be divisible by 7

 

-the number of nouns must be divisible by 7

 

-only 7 words shall not be nouns

 

-the number of names shall b divisible by 7

 

-only 7 other kinds of nouns are allowed

 

-number of male names must be divisible by 7

 

-number of generations shall be divisible by 7

 

 

 

among other things...but this is just a small example among many many others

[assassin_696]

But thats not a reason to beleive in it.

 

 

 

i realize that...but to me evidence points towards a God, and things in the Bible just shout out to me (if you'd like i guess i'll go over those things)

 

 

 

Darwin once said "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case."

 

 

 

and just look at the cell:

 

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjexZ88wIno

 

 

 

If you're referring to irreducible complexity, there is still no proven example of that.

[magekillr]

But thats not a reason to beleive in it.

 

 

 

i realize that...but to me evidence points towards a God, and things in the Bible just shout out to me (if you'd like i guess i'll go over those things)

 

 

 

Darwin once said "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find no such case."

 

 

 

and just look at the cell:

 

 

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjexZ88wIno

 

 

 

If you're referring to irreducible complexity, there is still no proven example of that.

 

 

 

i wasn't necessarily referring to that. that's referring to mutations and such over time being a positive benefit. or something along those lines

 

 

 

i was referring more to the complexity of the cell...in that it is so complex, and then further on they assist one another to make an organ.

 

 

 

if a cell isn't complex..i don't know what is

[assassin_696]

Cells are incredibly complex, but not unexplainably so.

[warri0r45]

Cells are incredibly complex, but not unexplainably so.

 

 

 

As is my understanding, everything in a cell has a purpose due to it's electrical uniqueness. That's as much as I can boil it down, which makes it pretty simple. Electrical interactions give a conformational shape in protiens which can form enzymes whose active sites interact electrically with substrates. Hydrogen bonds form due to the electrically positive and negative regions at the ends of nitrogenous bases in DNA/RNA. A lipid bilayer, which forms around every cell on the planet, is arranged according to electrically negative and positive regions, the hydrophobic ends pointing in and hydrophillic pointing out. Protiens lodge in the cell membrane and allow certain compounds through due to thier structure. Subsequent conformational changes in the protien transporting these compounds occur due to electrical interactions.

 

 

 

Positives and negatives is as simply as I can put it. It looks complex to us, but it's all got purpose due to structure and lack of electrical neutrality.

[magekillr]

but it's all got purpose due to structure and lack of electrical neutrality

 

 

 

wouldn't everything be classified as "simple" if you break down each individual piece and it's purpose? the complexity is the when it works together

[warri0r45]

but it's all got purpose due to structure and lack of electrical neutrality

 

 

 

wouldn't everything be classified as "simple" if you break down each individual piece and it's purpose? the complexity is the when it works together

 

 

 

Of course, I'm just saying on the fundamental level, there's nothing wierd or impossible about it ocurring naturally when the compounds that make you up act in the way they do due to thier natural electrical interactions. Coincidentally, these days there's increasing focus on how cells come together to form organs, systems and then organisms.

[magekillr]

but it's all got purpose due to structure and lack of electrical neutrality

 

 

 

wouldn't everything be classified as "simple" if you break down each individual piece and it's purpose? the complexity is the when it works together

 

 

 

Of course, I'm just saying on the fundamental level, there's nothing wierd or impossible about it ocurring naturally when the compounds that make you up act in the way they do due to thier natural electrical interactions.

 

 

 

doesn't it take proteins to make DNA and DNA to make proteins? (i havn't studied any higher lvl biology than high school...so i am no where near "qualified" to argue)...just asking a question :)

[xvillexvalox]

[hide= qoute pyramid]

but it's all got purpose due to structure and lack of electrical neutrality

 

 

 

wouldn't everything be classified as "simple" if you break down each individual piece and it's purpose? the complexity is the when it works together

 

 

 

Of course, I'm just saying on the fundamental level, there's nothing wierd or impossible about it ocurring naturally when the compounds that make you up act in the way they do due to thier natural electrical interactions.

[/hide]

 

 

 

doesn't it take proteins to make DNA and DNA to make proteins? (i havn't studied any higher lvl biology than high school...so i am no where near "qualified" to argue)...just asking a question :)

 

 

 

DNA codes for protiens, and some code to make DICER (code name for a newly discovered amino acid that turns on/off genes). (and some are supposudly non-coding)

 

 

 

DNA replicates itself by being zipped open by a polymerase and then matching nucleotides attach to the zipped up ends. This process requires amino acids, but not protiens. (That is how DNA is replicated)

[Xewleer]

Those are some broad questions

 

I believe in God and Christ also.

 

The Bible doesn't give specific dates and times on when the earth was created. It just states..in the beginning..God created the heavens (first) and the earth.

 

It goes on to tell us about the history of man.

 

I read it every now and again...but what about dinosaurs? The bible doesn't mention them..but they did indeed exist. So apparently the earth was created many moons before 6000 years ago. (just my opinion)

 

 

 

And miracles, yes I believe they once happened...but I don't believe that they happen in today's times..I dunno..just my opinion. Well maybe I should say, if it is according to God's will..then I believe in that miracle. :)

 

 

 

couldn't say it better... but I have some things to add (if you don't mind)

 

 

 

I am a Christian, a soldier of the cross, if the gunman came and said, stand up all Christians, I'd stand up, and fight him... My belief in God could have no other ending... of my first and current body...

 

 

 

Now that you know where I am coming from... I believe that time is God's computer, he logs on when He wants, messes around with it whenever He wants, and He will turn it off when it suits Him. I believe the World, all in all, to be 7,000ish years old with life on it! It says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" "an the earth was void and without form..." "and the spirit of God moved over the waters..." So, there must have been enough time for the Spirit of God to move over the waters... at least!

 

 

 

BTW, I discovered through research of Non-Christian sources, that the level record thing dating level thing where they date fossils by the layer of rocks, only truly works 100% in Scotland, where it was first thought of.

 

 

 

I believe Miracles are a thing of God, and only God. A great man I knew, ran a place for specially developed people, had the worst form of a pancreatic cancer. The doctors sent him out of the hospital with morphine and gave him a time to live. At the 6-weeks left mark, he got examined in case they had to rethink the time limit... Nothing, not a sign, not even a mark, it was like it never was there. I don't think thats a triumph of modern science.

 

 

 

Anyway! hope this doesn't come across as a flame post!

 

 

 

edit:

 

Okay, I replied directly from the 1st page so... about the time question... page 0ne... I personally believe time is God's computer, we are not ruled by our computers, why should He be tethered like us to it?

 

I believe that Adam, like everything created was a creature/plant/human in its/his/her prime.

 

About the age of earth, I think that Christian should say that it is 7000 odd years old with life on it

 

 

 

About Victor Krum's thought on erasing all trace of the flood, in the north west of the US, I forget exactly where, there is a place that looks like it was under water, including mud holes and wavy sand. Also, about how you live your life... the Bible gives freedom, provide you don't sin. I prefer that to the strict eastern religions.

 

 

 

God does, but so do you, Satenza, if you have killed a huge amount of insects by stomping on them... God is a God of love, but if you love a dog who is suffering with incurable and greatly painful disease, (now skip to humanity) its the same with sin, before the flood, man became so sinful that God despaired of even making us. Be very glad He was merciful enough to save Noah.

 

 

 

anonimu... I could be considered a fundamentalist, I have an incredibly hard time seeing the compromise, but that is just because I am a servant of a high God and greater than me (but not God) men. Just how I'm built. I also despise those fundamentalists you speak of, they give the true ones a bad name. Also, the flood was not regional... if it was then why do the: Aztecs/Mayans, Austrailians, Babylonians, Native Americans, Chinese (Asians) even the Muslims agree with Christianity/Judaeism that there was a flood.

 

 

 

W00t! I'm off afeter making my Point see ya squares! ha ha ha ha !

[Rebdragon]

couldn't say it better... but I have some things to add (if you don't mind)

 

 

 

I am a Christian, a soldier of the cross, if the gunman came and said, stand up all Christians, I'd stand up, and fight him... My belief in God could have no other ending... of my first and current body...

 

I wouldn't do that, but to each his own...

 

 

 

Now that you know where I am coming from... I believe that time is God's computer, he logs on when He wants, messes around with it whenever He wants, and He will turn it off when it suits Him. I believe the World, all in all, to be 7,000ish years old with life on it! It says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" "an the earth was void and without form..." "and the spirit of God moved over the waters..." So, there must have been enough time for the Spirit of God to move over the waters... at least!

 

:|

 

 

 

I don't think that trying to meet half-way with science is going to work that well.

 

 

 

BTW, I discovered through research of Non-Christian sources, that the level record thing dating level thing where they date fossils by the layer of rocks, only truly works 100% in Scotland, where it was first thought of.

 

That doesn't really disprove the mountains of evidence.

 

 

 

I believe Miracles are a thing of God, and only God -cut out- .

 

Amen.

 

 

 

A great man I knew, ran a place for specially developed people, had the worst form of a pancreatic cancer. The doctors sent him out of the hospital with morphine and gave him a time to live. At the 6-weeks left mark, he got examined in case they had to rethink the time limit... Nothing, not a sign, not even a mark, it was like it never was there. I don't think thats a triumph of modern science.

 

Don't jump to conclusions so easily.

 

 

 

What's to say it wasn't a natural body function acting in a lucky manner, or some affect of his environment? What if his body reacted to some medicine in an ideal manner? It's not like we're omniscient- there could easily be a simple explanation, if there isn't an obvious one already.

 

 

 

Anyway! hope this doesn't come across as a flame post!

 

I don't see why it would :) .

[Xewleer]

About the Miracle correction: thanks Rebdragon, I used the wrong word, I meant through, like Paul healing a leper or something like that.

 

 

 

Anyway, about the guy I knew, there was no medicine, just morphine, just painkillers. There was a 90% chance of dying, the other 10% I think either died of other things before or were caught just before the "too late" mark. I prayed, and he was healed, others prayed and he was healed. Even certain doctors I have seen say that there is something in Christian religions that help people live better/healthier lives than those who don't, just saying.

 

 

 

Lastly, about what I said how the dating level of earth method only works in Scotland, I figured it out using non-Christian sources. Believe it or not, I actually am on the up and up on non-Christian sciences.

[vilageidiotx]

No I didn't actually have a specific example that I was going to challenge you on, it was just a genuine question I wanted to ask.

 

 

 

The conflict in my mind is that you're both well educated and intelligent people, yet fundamentalists believe the Bible as literal fact (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

 

 

So I was just curious when (for example) an unspecified miracle clashed with all scientific evidence to the contrary what would give first, science or the Bible?

 

 

 

It's not an attack on the Resurrection, but to illustrate it, we all know that people don't rise from the dead. If you're hung up on a cross for several days (although Jesus apparently died quite quickly) and put in a hot tomb for a few days you don't spring back to life. That defies all evidence about death and decay. Yet many Christians believe in the Resurrection, presumbably because they believe God isn't constrained by the laws of nature.

 

 

 

I don't know really, it just seems...well I could say counter-intuitive but so is quantum mechanics. It just seems irrational, and unproven, and requiring a big leap of faith.

 

 

 

I wouldn't choose either, it would be better to weigh the two instead of just saying the bible is right 100%, or science is right 100%

 

 

 

Also, the resurrection doesn't seem to imply that he just popped up, but more of a restoration. He was...fixed if you will. Also, we are assuming that since this is gods son, god would bend the laws a little to let such a thing happen.

[assassin_696]

About the Miracle correction: thanks Rebdragon, I used the wrong word, I meant through, like Paul healing a leper or something like that.

 

 

 

Anyway, about the guy I knew, there was no medicine, just morphine, just painkillers. There was a 90% chance of dying, the other 10% I think either died of other things before or were caught just before the "too late" mark. I prayed, and he was healed, others prayed and he was healed. Even certain doctors I have seen say that there is something in Christian religions that help people live better/healthier lives than those who don't, just saying.

 

 

 

Lastly, about what I said how the dating level of earth method only works in Scotland, I figured it out using non-Christian sources. Believe it or not, I actually am on the up and up on non-Christian sciences.

 

 

 

That's psychological though, not the power of prayer.

 

 

 

Also I'd like to see your source for your critique of the dating method, even if it is non Christian.

[warri0r45]

BTW, I discovered through research of Non-Christian sources, that the level record thing dating level thing where they date fossils by the layer of rocks, only truly works 100% in Scotland, where it was first thought of.

 

 

 

Try radiometric dating, not rock layers. The layers of rock give you a comparative age, not a number like a radioactive decay formula can. Go for a broader range of non-christian sources and you'll get a more accurate picture.

 

 

 

[hide= qoute pyramid]

but it's all got purpose due to structure and lack of electrical neutrality

 

 

 

wouldn't everything be classified as "simple" if you break down each individual piece and it's purpose? the complexity is the when it works together

 

 

 

Of course, I'm just saying on the fundamental level, there's nothing wierd or impossible about it ocurring naturally when the compounds that make you up act in the way they do due to thier natural electrical interactions.

[/hide]

 

 

 

doesn't it take proteins to make DNA and DNA to make proteins? (i havn't studied any higher lvl biology than high school...so i am no where near "qualified" to argue)...just asking a question :)

 

 

 

DNA codes for protiens, and some code to make DICER (code name for a newly discovered amino acid that turns on/off genes). (and some are supposudly non-coding)

 

 

 

DNA replicates itself by being zipped open by a polymerase and then matching nucleotides attach to the zipped up ends. This process requires amino acids, but not protiens. (That is how DNA is replicated)

 

 

 

Well, DNA polymerase is an enzyme, which is a protien, not just amino acids. I can see the argument you're getting at, mage, a chicken or the egg dealey. I understand, but could you entertain that at the beginning of life, it wasn't as clear cut, mechanical or as similar as it is now. I couldn't answer how the fix the problem, though.

[Viktorkrum77]

I want to spend but one year of my life completely detached from material possessions and the world, and train at a Hindu or Buddhist temple hidden in the mountains. :

 

 

 

That would be an experience that could help me get a better grip on life.

 

 

 

But my point, religion isn't a bad thing at all, it's the believers not the religion itself. The religion itself never specifies what to and what not to believe. They are always changing things, the Catholic Church.

[warri0r45]

I want to spend but one year of my life completely detached from material possessions and the world, and train at a Hindu or Buddhist temple hidden in the mountains. :

 

 

 

That would be an experience that could help me get a better grip on life.

 

 

 

But my point, religion isn't a bad thing at all, it's the believers not the religion itself. The religion itself never specifies what to and what not to believe. They are always changing things, the Catholic Church.

 

 

 

I would definately do that. When I get my life in order and have enough money, it's a buddhist's life in Tibet for at least 3-6 months. :P

 

 

 

A little hut on the side of a mountain. The serenity...

[Barihawk]

I want to spend but one year of my life completely detached from material possessions and the world, and train at a Hindu or Buddhist temple hidden in the mountains. :

 

 

 

That would be an experience that could help me get a better grip on life.

 

 

 

But my point, religion isn't a bad thing at all, it's the believers not the religion itself. The religion itself never specifies what to and what not to believe. They are always changing things, the Catholic Church.

 

 

 

You would be shocked to know that most Fundamentalists are not Catholic. In fact, they are trying to repair the damage done to Christianity by the Catholic Church.

[Viktorkrum77]

I want to spend but one year of my life completely detached from material possessions and the world, and train at a Hindu or Buddhist temple hidden in the mountains. :

 

 

 

That would be an experience that could help me get a better grip on life.

 

 

 

But my point, religion isn't a bad thing at all, it's the believers not the religion itself. The religion itself never specifies what to and what not to believe. They are always changing things, the Catholic Church.

 

 

 

You would be shocked to know that most Fundamentalists are not Catholic. In fact, they are trying to repair the damage done to Christianity by the Catholic Church.

 

 

 

Interesting, my perspective around here is not the same. Here my Lutheran (Protestant) church is much more liberal than the Catholic churches. I actually feel really uncomfortable in a Catholic church, but at my Protestant one I feel right at home. I don't see any sort of hospitality in Catholic churches.

 

 

 

But it's Islamic fundamentalism that's the worse.

 

 

 

*Edit*

 

 

 

If traced through history, I could see why it is that way. :-k