MY questions to extremest in fundamentalism...

[bull912000]

Notes:

 

To flamers: If this becomes an out of control topic, I will not hesitate to ask someone to lock or delete this thread.

 

To administrators: I do not know of similar threads that have been created, but I wish this to be a discussion around this question and not on if God is real or not.

 

To extreme Fundamentalist: My belief of how the world was started among other things does not determine weather or not I go too hell. I wish this to be a discussion and not a flame-a-thon. I again will not hesitate to contact moderators or administrators.

 

To English teachers: I am sorry about my spelling. If you are getting annoyed, please copy and paste into a word document and take the few hours to spell-check this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that I'm finished with my disclaimers, I can finally introduce myself. I am a Christian with a moderate view on not just the creation, but on many things in the Old Testament. Due to some real-world issues in my life, I have begun to think more and more about issues in which our views are split. Chances are I will add more questions to this list, since my thinking continues.

 

 

 

Question 1 (In general): Why do fundamentalist focus so much on trying to rant against moderate and liberal views of the Bible? Your faith is not dependant on if you believe the earth was created in 5 Billion years or 6,000 years there are only two or three chapters in the Bible on the creation, and there are 4 books on the life of Jesus alone.

 

 

 

Question 2 (Miracles): Why is it such a sin to believe that certain facts of miracles have to be true. For example, it does not matter if it rained for 40 days or if the mountains of the black sea gave way to cause the flood that is not the miracle. The miracle is that God told Noah to build an arc because there would be a flood, and it flooded.

 

 

 

Questions to the *literallist* in the creation (just for the fun of it).

 

It doesn't take carbon dating to prove that fossils are WAY older than decayed bones. Why can't we find fossils of human bones.. or bones of dinosaurs? It cant be the size of them, we find trilabite fossils that are about the size of a thumb nail.

 

 

 

tbc...

 

 

 

Edited and spell-checked. Please, if you're aware of the problems perhaps do it yourself in the future?

 

Ty, sorry bout that.

 

 

 

~assassin

[Barihawk]

First of all, as a Fundamentalist myself, allow my to correct you. Fundamentalists are NOT all extremist right-wing Christians.

 

 

 

Now, to the questions:

 

 

 

1: There is only one book of creation. I personally as a slightly-right Fundamentalist believe that the world is ancient. Far more ancient than humans. I believe that the Six Days of creation were days to God, as the Creation was told to Moses from God's point of view. And what is a day to God? The fossil record, the history of the earth, all happened dynamically. In addition, the 6000 year theory is BS as it uses 6000 of OUR years. By adjusting for the calendars used over the history of the bible by the writers (which includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Egyptian, Greek, and early Roman) the history of mankind actually stretches a good 80,000 years according to the Bible. Which is far more believable.

 

 

 

2. I believe in all the Miracles (*gasp!). I do not doubt the power of God or Christ in the slightest. How they happened is just a matter of faith. Whether you believe God influenced the geography or made it rain supernaturally, does not matter. The fact is, the miracle happened. Whether Christ told a demon to leave a body or cast it out violently, does not matter.

 

 

 

Hope that answered the current questions.

[ladymax]

Those are some broad questions

 

I believe in God and Christ also.

 

The Bible doesn't give specific dates and times on when the earth was created. It just states..in the beginning..God created the heavens (first) and the earth.

 

It goes on to tell us about the history of man.

 

I read it every now and again...but what about dinosaurs? The bible doesn't mention them..but they did indeed exist. So apparently the earth was created many moons before 6000 years ago. (just my opinion)

 

 

 

And miracles, yes I believe they once happened...but I don't believe that they happen in today's times..I dunno..just my opinion. Well maybe I should say, if it is according to God's will..then I believe in that miracle. :)

[magekillr]

agreed with Barihawk. i did some research just recently and there are different theories about how old the earth is. like you said...it really does not matter how old it is, but some people wanna know.

 

 

 

i have changed my view on this after doing research on my own and looking at things that make sense.

 

 

 

theory 1.) like barihawk said, the days to God are different than the days to us. time is a dimension just like length, width, and height...and is therefore is dependent on the observer. that being said...time can be torn, bent, twisted, and basically manipulated. now if you have past, present, and future...all in a line like this:

 

 

 

------Past---------Present--------Future

 

 

 

then put God on that timeline...he will be OUTSIDE of our time dimension all together...so a day to him could be many years to us:

 

 

 

------Past---------Present--------Future

 

-------^---------------^--------------^------

 

-------|----------------|---------------|------

 

-------|__________|__________|____

 

-------------------------|--------------------

 

-----------------------GOD------------------

 

 

 

so he can see every dimension at once because he is OUTSIDE of it. so he is not limited to our term of a "day"...so a 24 hour period to him could be different than ours as the measurement of time is dependent on the observer.

 

 

 

2.) Theory 2:

 

 

 

alright let's say God created man....ok? and it can be inferred from the Bible that he is a MAN, not a child. now...if he is a man and not a child...how old is he right when God created him? is he per say...25 years old? or 1 minute (second..w/e) old?

 

 

 

how old would he really be? to a doctor (if one was around) he would say that he has the molecular structure of a 25 year old man...but in fact he is only 1 minute old.

 

 

 

if that's the case for man...who's to say that can't be the case for...that mountain or rock? who's to say our perception of time and how old things are, are the correct measurement.

 

 

 

because maybe we say that rock is 3 billion years old (AND IT IS!), but in reality it is only...6,000 years old!

 

 

 

so i mean...there's so many different ways to look at it

 

 

 

again...it really doesn't matter...but yeah

[bull912000]

agreed with Barihawk. i did some research just recently and there are different theories about how old the earth is. like you said...it really does not matter how old it is, but some people wanna know.

 

 

 

i have changed my view on this after doing research on my own and looking at things that make sense.

 

 

 

theory 1.) like barihawk said, the days to God are different than the days to us. time is a dimension just like length, width, and height...and is therefore is dependent on the observer. that being said...time can be torn, bent, twisted, and basically manipulated. now if you have past, present, and future...all in a line like this:

 

 

 

------Past---------Present--------Future

 

 

 

then put God on that timeline...he will be OUTSIDE of our time dimension all together...so a day to him could be many years to us:

 

 

 

------Past---------Present--------Future

 

-------^---------------^--------------^------

 

-------|----------------|---------------|------

 

-------|__________|__________|____

 

-------------------------|--------------------

 

-----------------------GOD------------------

 

 

 

so he can see every dimension at once because he is OUTSIDE of it. so he is not limited to our term of a "day"...so a 24 hour period to him could be different than ours as the measurement of time is dependent on the observer.

 

 

 

I aggree. We like to think that God lives in man's time. The truth is, god lives in whatever time he wants, even no time.

 

Barihawk wrote:

 

First of all, as a Fundamentalist myself, allow my to correct you. Fundamentalists are NOT all extremist right-wing Christians.

 

 

 

Now, to the questions:

 

 

 

1: There is only one book of creation. I personally as a slightly-right Fundamentalist believe that the world is ancient. Far more ancient than humans. I believe that the Six Days of creation were days to God, as the Creation was told to Moses from God's point of view. And what is a day to God? The fossil record, the history of the earth, all happened dynamically. In addition, the 6000 year theory is BS as it uses 6000 of OUR years. By adjusting for the calendars used over the history of the bible by the writers (which includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Egyptian, Greek, and early Roman) the history of mankind actually stretches a good 80,000 years according to the Bible. Which is far more believable.

 

 

 

2. I believe in all the Miracles (*gasp!). I do not doubt the power of God or Christ in the slightest. How they happened is just a matter of faith. Whether you believe God influenced the geography or made it rain supernaturally, does not matter. The fact is, the miracle happened. Whether Christ told a demon to leave a body or cast it out violently, does not matter.

 

 

 

Hope that answered the current questions.

 

 

 

 

 

When it comes down to the creation in miricals, I feel that any way a mirrical happened doesn't make God any less powerfull. If he chooses to work within the earthly laws of physics, he can do that. If he chooses to do a supernatural and drastic action, he can do that. It all comes down to God Does Something = Something Happens.

[bull912000]

Sorry, dp

[Rebdragon]

agreed with Barihawk. i did some research just recently and there are different theories about how old the earth is. like you said...it really does not matter how old it is, but some people wanna know.

 

 

 

i have changed my view on this after doing research on my own and looking at things that make sense.

 

 

 

theory 1.) like barihawk said, the days to God are different than the days to us. time is a dimension just like length, width, and height...and is therefore is dependent on the observer. that being said...time can be torn, bent, twisted, and basically manipulated. now if you have past, present, and future...all in a line like this:

 

 

 

------Past---------Present--------Future

 

 

 

then put God on that timeline...he will be OUTSIDE of our time dimension all together...so a day to him could be many years to us:

 

 

 

------Past---------Present--------Future

 

-------^---------------^--------------^------

 

-------|----------------|---------------|------

 

-------|__________|__________|____

 

-------------------------|--------------------

 

-----------------------GOD------------------

 

 

 

so he can see every dimension at once because he is OUTSIDE of it. so he is not limited to our term of a "day"...so a 24 hour period to him could be different than ours as the measurement of time is dependent on the observer.

 

That has nothing to do with general relativity, at all. It's just that the [logically speaking] God is "extrauniverse", so It's not bound by this universes laws. That's really all there is to it- you don't even need to bother with the warping of time in this dimension.

[Viktorkrum77]

The only problem with miracles is that it's so easy to just justify it with a, "oh, God erased all proof of the, for example, flood", etc. And again, I never see miracles written about outside of the Bible (during, before, and after the time of the Bible). Take the flood for example, what about the plethora of other ancient civilizations, Egyptians, Chinese, MesoAmerican, Island Natives, etc, why do they not mention the flood? Why weren't their people killed off and their monuments erased? And then there comes the actual physicality of it, like how Noah got ahold of creatures living in the depths of the sea, lions in the jungles of Africa, penguins in Antartica, polar bears in the Arctic, species unknown to us, and they lived together in a small boat not within their natural habitat (especially for Tundra and Marine animals) for 40 days. To me, it's simply a story meant to teach, not truth, it can't be justified as truth.

 

 

 

It's simply easier to not explain these circumstances in a religion (which is why I believe we should completely rid away with the Old Testament). Most Eastern Religions I've read up on don't talk about Creation much and more about the self, the connection to God, etc. I don't see this in the Bible. The Bible does not teach me how to live my with God as much as the Bhagavad Gita, for example, does to Hindu's. And it's all broad, it's scripture you can relate to and live a more religious life with, to accomplish the ultimate goal, heaven.

 

 

 

These scriptures are not a history book like the Bible, that is flawed. They are single events taken from a perspective the reader can relate with, usually involving a representative of the higher deity teaching the other what to do, how to get closer to God, how to live life, what to sacrifice, how to be one with the self, how to achieve unity and live a life with God, yourself, and others.

[Satenza]

And what does Noah's ark teach? God commits genocide. Yay!

[anonimu]

Please use FireFox or type your posts in Word first (few hours? people like you make me want to kill myself...).

 

 

 

Some fundamentalisms rant about current scientific beliefs because they think that the Bible is "the truth" and nothing in it is wrong. They don't want to "compromise" by saying that when God created the Universe he made everything seem older than it actually is. I don't get what you're talking about in your second paragraph... it isn't a sin to "believe that certain facts of miracles must be true..."

 

 

 

@ Viktor: Actually, there's a whole lot of cultures (even some American and Australian ones) that talk about a flood. There probably was a regional flood around the time humanity started orally passing on history.

[vilageidiotx]

Question 1: The bible doesn't actually specify how old the earth is. The creation story doesn't go into detail on much, it says that god created many things in six days, but it doesn't specify how he created anything nor does it say how long a day is to god. This allows alot of things science has brought us to be compatible with the bible its self.

 

 

 

 

 

As for viktors statement, i have never really looked at it that way before. Most cultures have a flood story almost identical to noahs ark, so one option could be that he instructed some other people of other cultures to do the same, and its not mentioned in the bible because it wasnt important for the jewish people to know

[ktmcf121]

And what does Noah's ark teach? God commits genocide. Yay!

 

 

 

and that God will protect the good-hearted people. there just happened to be only 1 person in this case.

 

 

 

the bible isn't meant to be taken literally....

[Korskin]

Everything comes down to what you think of the Bible. Do you believe you are free to choose what's true and what's not true, or do you believe it's the truth regardless of how inconvenient that truth is. I just can't accept that we should bend the Bible to fit our society. It completely takes away the authority of the Bible. Everything in the Bible would be completely black or white to me without the fact that we must interpret the Bible to fully understand what it's saying.

 

 

 

You do have a vaild point when you're implying that christian fundamentalist often focus on the wrong things. But there's a risk of going from there and saying that the only relevant part of the Bible is to love eachother, or something other equally vague. That just doesn't seem right.

[hohto]

If you ask me, fundalism is the most dangerous way to follow any ideology or religion. No matter is it Christianity, Islam, Communism, Socialdemoratism or Nationalsocialism. Following an ideology that way most likely just makes it to collade with the current society and it in most cases lead to a disaster.

[Barihawk]

If you ask me, fundalism is the most dangerous way to follow any ideology or religion. No matter is it Christianity, Islam, Communism, Socialdemoratism or Nationalsocialism. Following an ideology that way most likely just makes it to collade with the current society and it in most cases lead to a disaster.

 

 

 

No, you are thinking about internet fundamentalism.

 

 

 

Fundamentalist Christianity defined refers to Christians that believe in the miracles and creation.

 

 

 

 

 

And Satenza, do not try and start crap. The OP put that in his first post.

[insane]

why do they not mention the flood?

 

 

 

If I recall correctly only Noah and his family survived. Dead people can't mention things like floods.

[Viktorkrum77]

why do they not mention the flood?

 

 

 

If I recall correctly only Noah and his family survived. Dead people can't mention things like floods.

 

 

 

But why would God kill millions of people and animals? It makes no bloody sense.

[xvillexvalox]

Insane, and then what happened? Noah's family commited endogamy and repopulated every culture in the world and restored all their pre-flood history, buildings, temples and such?

[insane]

why do they not mention the flood?

 

 

 

If I recall correctly only Noah and his family survived. Dead people can't mention things like floods.

 

 

 

But why would God kill millions of people and animals? It makes no bloody sense.

 

 

 

That's completely irrelevant to what I quoted.

[Ambassadar]

Why do fundamentalist focus so much on trying to rant against moderate and liberal views of the Bible?

 

Why do liberal people rant so much about fundamentalists? :P

 

 

 

A problem I have is in many liberal type Churches it appears to me that a lot of times social agendas and such become more important than God. Man elevates what he feels is best and right at the time over what God said. In my opinion this rips the soul out of Christianity because to me being a Christian is all about submitting yourself to Christ and following him as your Lord. When agendas become more important than God then that is a problem I feel needs to be addressed which is why I personally will speak up. It probably varies with each person. If the Bible is God's word then it needs to be followed as such. If it is just "an outdated book with some nice moral guidelines" then it belongs in the trash in my opinion.

 

 

 

As to the people talking about creation let's take a look at what it actually says.

 

 

 

1In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 

Is this first part included in the first day? I honestly can't tell when I read the Bible. If it was not included in the first day then the period between this and the first day could be any amount of years. I honestly don't know on this first part.

 

 

 

3And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6And God said, "Let there be an expanse[a] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. 8And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

 

 

 

Notice how after God creates the stars it defines each day and a morning and an evening. That implies one rotation of the Earth which would be a 24 hour day.

[assassin_696]

I have a question for fundamentalists: would you carry on believing a particular "fact" or point written down in the Bible even though all evidence shows to the contrary simply because it's in the Bible?

[warri0r45]

I'm not all that keen on fundamentalism, but then again, everyone has thier beliefs, no matter how silly they seem to me. I must say it is refreshing to hear magekillr and barihawk throw around some fresher views instead of going with regurgitated arguments.

 

 

 

Myself, I'm keen on facts. Whatever I can know and reason. What a gift.

[magekillr]

I have a question for fundamentalists: would you carry on believing a particular "fact" or point written down in the Bible even though all evidence shows to the contrary simply because it's in the Bible?

 

 

 

evidence? or a law of science?

 

 

 

and if so, do you have examples

 

 

 

if not, what does it matter at this point?

[Barihawk]

I have a question for fundamentalists: would you carry on believing a particular "fact" or point written down in the Bible even though all evidence shows to the contrary simply because it's in the Bible?

 

 

 

As long as it's not some random verse taken out of context (whch I have become very good at dispelling :P) then shoot, bring it on.

 

 

 

The Bible's historical facts are unparalleled in any scriptures and the miracles boil down to a matter of faith. Even several miracles have historical and archeological proof (like the fate of Sodom and Gamorrah) and political ramifications (Mount Sinai being heavily guarded for no reason).

[magekillr]

I have a question for fundamentalists: would you carry on believing a particular "fact" or point written down in the Bible even though all evidence shows to the contrary simply because it's in the Bible?

 

 

 

As long as it's not some random verse taken out of context (whch I have become very good at dispelling :P) then shoot, bring it on.

 

 

 

like evilbible.com does? :shame: