Forever_Lona Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I am wondering, is there anyone on here who has had expereince with this disease? Whether they suffer it themselves, or know of someone who does? I'm having a bit of a tough time dealing with something at the moment. Two of my closest friends are Bi-Polar. One severely so, and she has just completely cut herself off in an effor to get her head back on track. The other, Kait, I live with, adore as a sister. Kait is a very non touchy feely sort of person, very strong, very independant. And when she falls into a depession all she wants to do is be left alone. Am I doing the right thing by respecting her wishes? Should I just subtly drop hints that I'm around, and more than willing to help out? I havent had a whole heap of experience with Bi-Polar, and now living with someone who suffers it is becomig difficult.. not that I would have things any other way, of course :) Just be interested to hear other peoples experiences if they are willing to share them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGoddessI Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Here's the best way I can describe the disorder for you. One day you wake up after 15 hours of sleep, you slam the alarm off and pull the covers up over your head. You have no energy, your body is sore and you just want to go back to bed. You don't want to have to deal with people, work, commitments, boyfriends, girlfriends, family members, anyone really. People ask you questions and you give them closed conversation. Yes. No. Yep. Ok. You really just want to be alone and stare in to space, sleep or be focussed on one activity like 9 hours of solitaire. When people won̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t leave you alone or keep talking, you get agitated, sometimes angry, frustrated and will be rude and subtle without realising it. Sometimes you cry over something you would normally shrug off, you have lost all motivation, you feel depressed and in extreme cases, feel like you've done everything before, everything is repetitive, life sucks and you want to die. That is a low and usually lasts anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks. This is a high. You wake up after 3 hours of sleep and feel like you've had the best nights sleep in ages. You text everyone that thought you had vanished from the face of the Earth 2 weeks ago and ask them all what they're up to, you just want to get the hell out of the house and TAAAAAAAAALKKK! Dance! Drink! Spend lots and lots of money!! Did I mention talk and spend lots of money??? You suddenly find yourself over spending, binge drinking, taking more risks and sometimes your words come out so fast that people have a hard time understanding you. A feeling of euphoria sweeps over you and you feel that you can conquer anything and everything..............and............. you do. Feeling creative, writing poems, songs, doing art, composing music, it's like you just overtook everyone that was running the race 2 weeks ago, you just stopped to take a nap before you shot past them. Suddenly you feel agitated, angry or aggressive, short tempered, snappy and you will pick fights for no reason. You sleep on it, wake up and talk to the person you just ripped their head off as if nothing had ever happened. It's also possible to have a high and a low at the same time!! God help the partner or friend in the way at the time... When everything in your life is perfect, you'll do anything to screw it up just to make it feel exciting. I walk away in silence wondering if it's worth it, the pain you cause me so uninviting. Go triumph in your pride of hubris reality, Stare down your reflection of melancholic. Exclude me from your mind game mentality, weaving through the roads of parabola, vitriolic. I wake from slumber with a hang over, absorbing your toxins that torture through my veins. I rise with jubilant, my mind now sober. You have lost your grip, it's my life, and I hold the reins. I conquer all through my wrath of euphoric energy, a labyrinth of riddles racing through my mind. Creativeness, speaking quickly this bliss inside of me, nothing is complete! Time is ticking slowly maligned. My heart pounds, confusion sets in, outraged for unknown reasons, you'll do. It's your entire fault! This anger I feel within! I'm sorry; I hope you forgive me, if you only knew... When I wake up each day I wonder why, I can̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t control the way I feel it decides for me. With my head in my hands I start to cry, I breathe deep sighs and count to three. When everything in your life is perfect, you̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ll do anything to screw it up just to make it feel exciting. I walk away in silence wondering if it's worth it, the pain you cause me so uninviting. Negatives: extremely hard to be in a relationship, compulsive behaviour such as ocd, drinking problems, drug abuse, gambling or excessive spending, suicide. Positives: Most creative, talented, intelligent people you will ever meet, extremely good at displaying empathy, very protective of their loved ones, higher chances of being wealthy than normal people due to creativity and the love of money. What else do you want to know? I know the ins, outs, upside downs and inside outs of the disorder. The only people who tell you that you can't do something are those who have already given up on their own dreams so feel the need to discourage yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forsaken Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Here's the best way I can describe the disorder for you. One day you wake up after 15 hours of sleep, you slam the alarm off and pull the covers up over your head. You have no energy, your body is sore and you just want to go back to bed. You don't want to have to deal with people, work, commitments, boyfriends, girlfriends, family members, anyone really. People ask you questions and you give them closed conversation. Yes. No. Yep. Ok. You really just want to be alone and stare in to space, sleep or be focussed on one activity like 9 hours of solitaire. When people won̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t leave you alone or keep talking, you get agitated, sometimes angry, frustrated and will be rude and subtle without realising it. Sometimes you cry over something you would normally shrug off, you have lost all motivation, you feel depressed and in extreme cases, feel like you've done everything before, everything is repetitive, life sucks and you want to die. That is a low and usually lasts anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks. This is a high. You wake up after 3 hours of sleep and feel like you've had the best nights sleep in ages. You text everyone that thought you had vanished from the face of the Earth 2 weeks ago and ask them all what they're up to, you just want to get the hell out of the house and TAAAAAAAAALKKK! Dance! Drink! Spend lots and lots of money!! Did I mention talk and spend lots of money??? You suddenly find yourself over spending, binge drinking, taking more risks and sometimes your words come out so fast that people have a hard time understanding you. A feeling of euphoria sweeps over you and you feel that you can conquer anything and everything..............and............. you do. Feeling creative, writing poems, songs, doing art, composing music, it's like you just overtook everyone that was running the race 2 weeks ago, you just stopped to take a nap before you shot past them. Suddenly you feel agitated, angry or aggressive, short tempered, snappy and you will pick fights for no reason. You sleep on it, wake up and talk to the person you just ripped their head off as if nothing had ever happened. It's also possible to have a high and a low at the same time!! God help the partner or friend in the way at the time... Oh my, that actually sounds like me. Hm. I won't pretend to know anything about dealing with persons suffering from bi-polar disorder, but I can wish you good luck. [; . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death_By_Pod Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 I am wondering, is there anyone on here who has had expereince with this disease? Whether they suffer it themselves, or know of someone who does? I'm having a bit of a tough time dealing with something at the moment. Two of my closest friends are Bi-Polar. One severely so, and she has just completely cut herself off in an effor to get her head back on track. The other, Kait, I live with, adore as a sister. Kait is a very non touchy feely sort of person, very strong, very independant. And when she falls into a depession all she wants to do is be left alone. Am I doing the right thing by respecting her wishes? Should I just subtly drop hints that I'm around, and more than willing to help out? I havent had a whole heap of experience with Bi-Polar, and now living with someone who suffers it is becomig difficult.. not that I would have things any other way, of course :) Just be interested to hear other peoples experiences if they are willing to share them When someone with a mental illness cuts themselves off, it's not to get their head back on track. Much like it doesn't make sense for someone to sleep off cancer, you can't solve a mental illness by isolating yourself. Likewise could be said for someone in a depressive state. Although you can't cure a depressive state by just hanging around someone, it's nice to know that there is someone who's willing to hang around a depressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 look up richard kuklinski or his bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPM Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 IGoddessI's explanation covers it pretty well. In the long run, it's no fun and very depressing. As for your friend Kait, the best thing to do is respect her wishes. Being pushy and around never helped me out of my downs, it just took time. Make sure she know's that you are there if you are needed. Don't worry about her(?) being angry with you. Stressful times will cause people to snap at each other, and it will be forgotten in time. ~M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
look_its_rob Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 well my experience with it is kinda funny. I went to my friends house who used to live down the street from me. we were sitting on his computer playing heroes of might and magic 3 when his brother walked in the house. His brother is two years older than us and one of the best fighters i ever met, which is why he can be kinda scary sometimes but he would always look out for us. Well we were sitting there and his brother came storming through the living room" i effing hate this effing house! i effing sucks just like this god damn effing family!" and was screaming and swearing and slamed his bedroom door on us. Two mins later he walks out of the room puts his arms around us and says "i love you guys!" and gave a huge hug and then went to make food. I was like :ohnoes: :XD: .... :thumbsup: :mrgreen: Look its rob! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever_Lona Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 IGoddessI, thats the best anyone has ever been able to explain it to me, so thank you. Its been a pretty big rollercoaster ride, a huge learning curve, but I wouldnt have passed it up for anything. Kait doesnt often rapid-cycle, I usually find she has a nasty downer once every three month or so. This morning was a prime example, We headed off to work together with not a word between us, but half way through she started chatting like nothing had happened. Another hour passed and it was back to the thick silence. Confusing, hard to know where I stand, but at least I have a beter idea of whats happening now. Death_By_Pod, I should have explained better. She cut herself off because certain friends were doing nothing to help her, quite the opposite, constant niggling and trying to upset. So she has basically said enough, I need alone time, or I'm going to explode. She still has one or two friends who drop up there on a regular basis to help take care of her, keep her company, but otherwise, she is cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knives669 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I'm slightly bipolar. I have my ups and downs. Goddess explained it perfectly. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaperClipsYaaaar Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I'm slightly bipolar. I have my ups and downs. Goddess explained it perfectly. :P What you are going through is puberty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knives669 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I'm slightly bipolar. I have my ups and downs. Goddess explained it perfectly. :P What you are going through is puberty. Wrong. Happened to me a long time ago, pal. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaperClipsYaaaar Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I'm slightly bipolar. I have my ups and downs. Goddess explained it perfectly. :P What you are going through is puberty. Wrong. Happened to me a long time ago, pal. :P I am not your pal. I am only a kilf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guthix_Girl Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I have bipolar disease.. and the way i get through it is because of my friends. When i tell them to leave me alone, they dont and they help me get through it. When somebody has a mental illness the best thing they can have is friends. Cause my friends mean everything to me and help me get through everything. I have lows so much more than highs and they last for weeks usually. When i get on an anger rampage or start sobbing uncontrollably, even if i dont want my friends to be there, thats when i need them most. So what you should do is be there for your friends. Be there even if they dont want you there. cause thats when they need you most, even if they dont know it. Never take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wakka102 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Here's the best way I can describe the disorder for you. One day you wake up after 15 hours of sleep, you slam the alarm off and pull the covers up over your head. You have no energy, your body is sore and you just want to go back to bed. You don't want to have to deal with people, work, commitments, boyfriends, girlfriends, family members, anyone really. People ask you questions and you give them closed conversation. Yes. No. Yep. Ok. You really just want to be alone and stare in to space, sleep or be focussed on one activity like 9 hours of solitaire. When people won̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t leave you alone or keep talking, you get agitated, sometimes angry, frustrated and will be rude and subtle without realising it. Sometimes you cry over something you would normally shrug off, you have lost all motivation, you feel depressed and in extreme cases, feel like you've done everything before, everything is repetitive, life sucks and you want to die. That is a low and usually lasts anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks. This is a high. You wake up after 3 hours of sleep and feel like you've had the best nights sleep in ages. You text everyone that thought you had vanished from the face of the Earth 2 weeks ago and ask them all what they're up to, you just want to get the hell out of the house and TAAAAAAAAALKKK! Dance! Drink! Spend lots and lots of money!! Did I mention talk and spend lots of money??? You suddenly find yourself over spending, binge drinking, taking more risks and sometimes your words come out so fast that people have a hard time understanding you. A feeling of euphoria sweeps over you and you feel that you can conquer anything and everything..............and............. you do. Feeling creative, writing poems, songs, doing art, composing music, it's like you just overtook everyone that was running the race 2 weeks ago, you just stopped to take a nap before you shot past them. Suddenly you feel agitated, angry or aggressive, short tempered, snappy and you will pick fights for no reason. You sleep on it, wake up and talk to the person you just ripped their head off as if nothing had ever happened. It's also possible to have a high and a low at the same time!! God help the partner or friend in the way at the time... When everything in your life is perfect, you'll do anything to screw it up just to make it feel exciting. I walk away in silence wondering if it's worth it, the pain you cause me so uninviting. Go triumph in your pride of hubris reality, Stare down your reflection of melancholic. Exclude me from your mind game mentality, weaving through the roads of parabola, vitriolic. I wake from slumber with a hang over, absorbing your toxins that torture through my veins. I rise with jubilant, my mind now sober. You have lost your grip, it's my life, and I hold the reins. I conquer all through my wrath of euphoric energy, a labyrinth of riddles racing through my mind. Creativeness, speaking quickly this bliss inside of me, nothing is complete! Time is ticking slowly maligned. My heart pounds, confusion sets in, outraged for unknown reasons, you'll do. It's your entire fault! This anger I feel within! I'm sorry; I hope you forgive me, if you only knew... When I wake up each day I wonder why, I can̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t control the way I feel it decides for me. With my head in my hands I start to cry, I breathe deep sighs and count to three. When everything in your life is perfect, you̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ll do anything to screw it up just to make it feel exciting. I walk away in silence wondering if it's worth it, the pain you cause me so uninviting. Negatives: extremely hard to be in a relationship, compulsive behaviour such as ocd, drinking problems, drug abuse, gambling or excessive spending, suicide. Positives: Most creative, talented, intelligent people you will ever meet, extremely good at displaying empathy, very protective of their loved ones, higher chances of being wealthy than normal people due to creativity and the love of money. What else do you want to know? I know the ins, outs, upside downs and inside outs of the disorder.wow...Is this a diagnosable disorder? Like could I ask my doctor about it and be tested to see if I have it somehow? I'm really thinking that I do... :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guthix_Girl Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Here's the best way I can describe the disorder for you. One day you wake up after 15 hours of sleep, you slam the alarm off and pull the covers up over your head. You have no energy, your body is sore and you just want to go back to bed. You don't want to have to deal with people, work, commitments, boyfriends, girlfriends, family members, anyone really. People ask you questions and you give them closed conversation. Yes. No. Yep. Ok. You really just want to be alone and stare in to space, sleep or be focussed on one activity like 9 hours of solitaire. When people won̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t leave you alone or keep talking, you get agitated, sometimes angry, frustrated and will be rude and subtle without realising it. Sometimes you cry over something you would normally shrug off, you have lost all motivation, you feel depressed and in extreme cases, feel like you've done everything before, everything is repetitive, life sucks and you want to die. That is a low and usually lasts anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks. This is a high. You wake up after 3 hours of sleep and feel like you've had the best nights sleep in ages. You text everyone that thought you had vanished from the face of the Earth 2 weeks ago and ask them all what they're up to, you just want to get the hell out of the house and TAAAAAAAAALKKK! Dance! Drink! Spend lots and lots of money!! Did I mention talk and spend lots of money??? You suddenly find yourself over spending, binge drinking, taking more risks and sometimes your words come out so fast that people have a hard time understanding you. A feeling of euphoria sweeps over you and you feel that you can conquer anything and everything..............and............. you do. Feeling creative, writing poems, songs, doing art, composing music, it's like you just overtook everyone that was running the race 2 weeks ago, you just stopped to take a nap before you shot past them. Suddenly you feel agitated, angry or aggressive, short tempered, snappy and you will pick fights for no reason. You sleep on it, wake up and talk to the person you just ripped their head off as if nothing had ever happened. It's also possible to have a high and a low at the same time!! God help the partner or friend in the way at the time... When everything in your life is perfect, you'll do anything to screw it up just to make it feel exciting. I walk away in silence wondering if it's worth it, the pain you cause me so uninviting. Go triumph in your pride of hubris reality, Stare down your reflection of melancholic. Exclude me from your mind game mentality, weaving through the roads of parabola, vitriolic. I wake from slumber with a hang over, absorbing your toxins that torture through my veins. I rise with jubilant, my mind now sober. You have lost your grip, it's my life, and I hold the reins. I conquer all through my wrath of euphoric energy, a labyrinth of riddles racing through my mind. Creativeness, speaking quickly this bliss inside of me, nothing is complete! Time is ticking slowly maligned. My heart pounds, confusion sets in, outraged for unknown reasons, you'll do. It's your entire fault! This anger I feel within! I'm sorry; I hope you forgive me, if you only knew... When I wake up each day I wonder why, I can̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t control the way I feel it decides for me. With my head in my hands I start to cry, I breathe deep sighs and count to three. When everything in your life is perfect, you̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢ll do anything to screw it up just to make it feel exciting. I walk away in silence wondering if it's worth it, the pain you cause me so uninviting. Negatives: extremely hard to be in a relationship, compulsive behaviour such as ocd, drinking problems, drug abuse, gambling or excessive spending, suicide. Positives: Most creative, talented, intelligent people you will ever meet, extremely good at displaying empathy, very protective of their loved ones, higher chances of being wealthy than normal people due to creativity and the love of money. What else do you want to know? I know the ins, outs, upside downs and inside outs of the disorder.wow...Is this a diagnosable disorder? Like could I ask my doctor about it and be tested to see if I have it somehow? I'm really thinking that I do... :shock: you can get it diagnosed by testing at a phsyche center or you can go to a phsychologist/chyatrist *i bet my spelling was atrocious* but anyways.. maybe a doctor can diagnose it too or give you a referal to a therapist for testing or something Never take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Omar_Iv Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 i know its possible, but irl ive only seen/heard of girls having bipolar disorder. never actually come across a guy thats bipolar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knives669 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I'm slightly bipolar. I have my ups and downs. Goddess explained it perfectly. :P What you are going through is puberty. Wrong. Happened to me a long time ago, pal. :P I am not your pal. I am only a kilf. How sad. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IGoddessI Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 If you have a girlfriend or boyfriend with bipolar, I find it's a nice tip to ask what's on their mind every once in a while. Hypothetically speaking say a lot of people got a high distinction all around and got a GPA of 7 in uni and the bipolar person only got a 4. This caused her or him a lot of grief and they felt stupid and worthless and the feeling of not being as good or of worth as everyone else. That person with bipolar disorder may go home and have an argument with their boyfriend or girlfriend and pick on all the little things they do wrong unconsciously to make themselves feel that other people have faults too. The boyfriend or girlfriend will be wondering what the hell is going on while their bipolar partner is crying, upset, arguing or telling them to go away or it's their fault they're feeling like this. The partner may fight back which will escalate the argument even more. A trained partner will ask what's wrong and remain calm and be there to listen. After the entire [bleep] this [bleep] that's the real truth will come out... Perhaps the person with bipolar might say something like if I leave you maybe I will have more time to study on the weekends and I will get better grades. A partner with an untrained ear would continue the argument about how they have done nothing wrong. A partner with a trained ear will say.. Grades? I didn't realise you were so upset over your grades? This will lead eventually to the bipolar person to spill out the real problem that is affecting them... They'll say something like... Yes my grades all the others got 7's and I only got a 4 I feel stupid! So long as the partner with the trained ear will help her or him to explore their feelings and work together with strategies to over come the problem, after the tears have stopped they will feel like the world has been lifted back off their shoulders. With people who have bipolar they always have an underlying problem that they don't realise until someone with a trained ear can pick up on it. Never treat your girlfriend or boyfriend with bipolar badly, most have the intentions of ̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅI̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m going to treat you how you treat me̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà The only people who tell you that you can't do something are those who have already given up on their own dreams so feel the need to discourage yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lateralus Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 If I have a friend who I think might be bi-polar, how can I go about addressing this? La lune ne garde aucune rancune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roberthree Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 *Raises hand* I've got it. It's freaking crazy, one second I feel like biting a guys head off. Then I want to go talk about something awesome I saw on TV last night. It's very up and down. Mood swings ftw. I can give you some advice coming from someone with a lifetime of experience in this: When they're in a bad place, leave them alone but let them know you're there if they need you. Don't get mad if they snap at you because 90% of the time they won't realize they're being rude. If they want to talk about something, let them. Nothing pisses me off more than being told to "Shut Up". Also: Pay attention for signs of suicide. I've been there... Not fun at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever_Lona Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 If you have a girlfriend or boyfriend with bipolar, I find it's a nice tip to ask what's on their mind every once in a while. Hypothetically speaking say a lot of people got a high distinction all around and got a GPA of 7 in uni and the bipolar person only got a 4. This caused her or him a lot of grief and they felt stupid and worthless and the feeling of not being as good or of worth as everyone else. That person with bipolar disorder may go home and have an argument with their boyfriend or girlfriend and pick on all the little things they do wrong unconsciously to make themselves feel that other people have faults too. The boyfriend or girlfriend will be wondering what the hell is going on while their bipolar partner is crying, upset, arguing or telling them to go away or it's their fault they're feeling like this. The partner may fight back which will escalate the argument even more. A trained partner will ask what's wrong and remain calm and be there to listen. After the entire [bleep] this [bleep] that's the real truth will come out... Perhaps the person with bipolar might say something like if I leave you maybe I will have more time to study on the weekends and I will get better grades. A partner with an untrained ear would continue the argument about how they have done nothing wrong. A partner with a trained ear will say.. Grades? I didn't realise you were so upset over your grades? This will lead eventually to the bipolar person to spill out the real problem that is affecting them... They'll say something like... Yes my grades all the others got 7's and I only got a 4 I feel stupid! So long as the partner with the trained ear will help her or him to explore their feelings and work together with strategies to over come the problem, after the tears have stopped they will feel like the world has been lifted back off their shoulders. With people who have bipolar they always have an underlying problem that they don't realise until someone with a trained ear can pick up on it. Never treat your girlfriend or boyfriend with bipolar badly, most have the intentions of ̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅI̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m going to treat you how you treat me̢̢̮ââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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