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Jagex = Mystery


Aquiel

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If that offends you, then I'm afraid debate isn't for you.

 

So far you've attacked Jagex's lack of ideas, but haven't even provided any of your own.

 

I take great care in not criticizing people if it isn't constructive. I suggest you do the same, or "debating isn't for you". :roll:

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I agree with Aqui. The moment you criticize someone personally, and that it isn't constructive advice to help them, you cross the line that you shouldn't cross in a debate. It's very annoying when people do it.

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Huta. You named two mmorpgs which have severe botting problems, to make it sound like all mmorpgs have such problems with it, while that is not true. The truth is, all mmorpgs have botting, and most of them do a good job at reducing it significantly, and keeping it under control.

 

 

 

You asked me to name a popular mmo - I'm going to name Flyff, which I played for several months. Flyff has some botting, I had an in-game acquaintance whose brother botted. His brother got banned very quickly, and I never heard again of any other case of botting during my months on Flyff, nor seen any. This is the difference between botting that is out of control, like in Runescape, and botting that is under control, like in Flyff.

 

 

 

While MMO (Massively Multi-player Online) Game Developers can do their utmost to stop botters and RWT, they're currently bound by the same limitations in I.P. (Intellectual Property) laws and the lack of enforcement of Copyright in many countries like all other commercial companies (a lot depends on International Law and Trade Agreements). As well, previously breaking Terms of Service and EULA was seen a problem for the game developers, and was not seen to influence the real world. The time one can separate one's real world from the consequences of ones actions online is fast coming to an end however (if it hasn't already).

 

 

 

Here's an example where a WoW player sponsored Class Action suit against a major Gold Seller. Player action on these matters is important in every MMORPG. The same goes for us reporting suspected bots as we see them in-game. Players taking positive action, and informing the companies that their games is essential part of the fight against bots.

 

 

 

I'd say that claims RuneScape has the biggest problems are misleading. If anything there are bigger targets in the Industry. Even Blizzard who were previously less active against the issue, have taken a similar stance to Jagex, and so are now mass-banning accountsfor in-game spamming, botting and Real World Trading (RWTing). RWTing is reported a problem in every game that allows trading of items between players, and as I stated initially is currently exacerbated by the lack of consistent regulation between countries making legal action against those who violate the Terms of Service of an MMO more difficult.

 

 

 

What's changing now though is an awareness that this isn't just a problem for online games. Governments are now becoming aware the trading in MMO virtual property has be come a channel for more dubious purposes. The very real possibility that this illegal trade in the I.P. of gaming companies, due to it's volume, is cloaking more nefarious activity is beginning to be understood.

 

 

 

Due to the seriousness that these claims may be backed-up by real world incidents of criminal activity, I believe these issues are now being addressed by many gaming companies, even if it seems they weren't at first.

 

 

 

However changing government regulation (now governments are increasingly aware of plethora of threats) means the MMO Industry as a whole is getting organised to fight these illegal activities in virtual worlds. They will do so knowing partly, that such RWTers (and the bots and 'sweat-shops' they run) that are obviously unpopular with a large part of their fan-base and paying subscribers, as well as soon being required by governments to take steps to combat at what is now being seen having real-world effects.

 

 

 

A recent report from Symantec discuss the likely future threats to virtual worlds here in pod-cast, focussed on Massively Mult-player Online Worlds & Games.

 

 

 

One can see for some time (in the RuneScape Knowledge Base) Jagex itself has been openly working with governments and law enforcement agencies around the world, in order to help protect players' personal safety. Now it's becoming apparent money laundering (turning them into physical money) and other illegal activities are becoming a serious concern, rule-breaking in all virtual worlds is going to become something may have real-life ramifications, since real-world criminal elements now may be involved in rule-breaking activity in virtual-worlds.

 

 

 

Breaking the game rules, may even now, result in serious real world consequences, if real world malicious activity is being carried out in conjunction with that rule breaking in the game.

 

 

 

I'm not sure it's possible to take these issues more seriously, now it's becoming apparent to Internet security companies and real-world governments are now aware that real-world criminal activity is now infiltrating our virtual gaming worlds.

 

 

 

Government to police virtual worlds

Lord Triesman, a minister at the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills, said that virtual worlds ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ the largest of which is World of Warcraft, which has more than nine million 'residents' ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ were "one of the most exciting technological developments in recent years." But he also told the Virtual Worlds conference in London that they present "sharp challenges" such as anti-social behaviour and identity theft.

 

 

 

He said he hoped that operators of such worlds ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ which range from the toy manufacturer Mattel to Linden Labs, the owner of Second Life ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ãâ would take the lead in regulation, but that in some cases, particularly where children were involved, there was "a certain inevitability about Government involvement."

 

 

 

More than ever I feel these are issues if you wish to contact Jagex about, should you hear or see suspicious activity, they will be more than likely glad to get your feedback.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Fey.

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This is not something that annoys me on a regular basis, but it annoys me from time to time, it always has. It's the fact I don't know much about Jagex. I know the basic stuff - the things that everyone knows. What bothers me is not knowing what goes on within their walls. Are they a minimum good -intentioned, or is money the only motivation? Do they tell us the truth, or tell us what we want to hear? Why are they unable to find a proper solution for bots, like all the other mmorpgs? Which kind of age range are they really marketing at? Why are they unable to enforce the fact that this game is 13+? Why are so many of the updates disappointing, while there is so many great ideas bubbling around on many fansite Runescape forums? Do they have an excuse for their horrible costumer support? Why are they unable to ban people for the good reasons, instead of banning innocents? Why have they allied with miniclip, when it was obvious it was going to ruin the community?

 

 

 

Many questions, very little answers. Any answer would be pure speculation, without proof of what is going on within those walls. For now, in my mind, Jagex is guilty until proven innocent - they have a lot of explaining to do.

 

 

 

They say they market at what they think would be fun and the 13+ rule is there mainly for a law existing in the US. It's quite possible they do remove people from the game who are under 13 but it's hard to find out whether they are under 13 or not unless they admit to it in game. Not sure where you've got the information that they ban innocent people, I don't see how you can prove that unless you have access to the evidence that was presented to them. Players can lie to you to present Jagex in a bad way I wouldn't believe everyone when they say they are innocent.

 

 

 

Not sure what the problem with Customer Support is but considering the amount of queries they get per day from 5 million players I think they do a good job. Not entirely sure why they became an affiliate of miniclip, that's exactly the type of people they don't want to be marketing at IE under 13 Americans.

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If that offends you, then I'm afraid debate isn't for you.

 

So far you've attacked Jagex's lack of ideas, but haven't even provided any of your own.

 

I take great care in not criticizing people if it isn't constructive. I suggest you do the same, or "debating isn't for you". :roll:

 

 

 

If this had been the first thread I've ever read with the "Jagex doesn't care" line of thinking, I might have acted differently. This isn't. Just like it grinds you to see low results against autoers, it also irritates me slightly when there are several different threads on the RSOF and various fansites blaming Jagex for the botter problems and/or accusing it of inaction and even indifference.

 

 

 

I'm going to head this off before you say it - this is not directed personally towards you. Absolutely not. This is directed towards this argument in general, the argument that's been repeated for months all over the web.

 

 

 

You say I was using unconstructive criticisism. I don't think I was. I recommended instead of complaining about a problem, try and see how difficult it is to fix. It's not easy. Occasionally an idea is posted in the suggestions forum, but often they aren't feasible or effective.

 

 

 

The bottom line is: unless every single mmo corperation in the entire world is "corrupt", if there were a nice, simple way to defeat gold farmers they'd be using it. There isn't, and big games worldwide have this problem. This ain't Big Lots, there's no 'easy button'.

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It's funny you should ask all these questions now, of all times.

 

 

 

Tip.it's current article is about how people like you consistently blame jagex for general problems claiming they are not doing their job well enough. All these claims are totally biased because we can only one side of the issue and we have no idea what goes on at Jagex Ltd.

 

 

 

As for the bot problem, this is probably the most impressive display of ignorance in the rs community that I have ever seen. They ban tens of thousands of bots on a weekly basis, yet everyone claims they do nothing. They come up with the infinite stocks, a way to effectively destroying the problem of store bots completely and people claim that this hasn't affected the bots. And if that wasn't enough, J mods themselves have been going ingame to deal with the bot problems themselves. After all that, how ignorant can you possibly be to say "jagex is unable to deal with the bot problem"

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I would be quite interested to see the reaction of the player bases if just for a few days Jagex did exactly as people think they do..... and do nothing about autoers.

 

 

 

It would probably be a huge wake up call to allot of people of just how hard removing all bots is!

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So because we have different opinions, you feel the right to insult me. Especially you, solidus. I have no interest in making a debate "my opinion is better than yours", that never ends well. Flammable replies like that, are not worthy of any replies. I suggest you learn to calm down, and not insult people, before you even dare come on this forum.

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So because we have different opinions, you feel the right to insult me. Especially you, solidus.

 

 

 

First off, calling you "biased" and calling the rs community "ignorant" is certainly not flaming. :roll:

 

 

 

I have no interest in making a debate "my opinion is better than yours", that never ends well.

 

 

 

All you've been doing up to this point is trying to prove how your opinion is the correct one. If you don't want a debate, don't make claims that jagex is not doing their job.

 

 

 

Opinions are (or at least should be) backed up by facts. Debates are about "my opinion is a better representation of the facts than yours".

 

 

 

Flammable replies like that, are not worthy of any replies.

 

 

 

This is just an excuse to avoid debating my points.

 

 

 

I suggest you learn to calm down, and not insult people, before you even dare come on this forum.

 

 

 

That is way to bold coming someone like you. :roll:

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So because we have different opinions, you feel the right to insult me. Especially you, solidus. I have no interest in making a debate "my opinion is better than yours", that never ends well. Flammable replies like that, are not worthy of any replies. I suggest you learn to calm down, and not insult people, before you even dare come on this forum.

 

 

 

This isn't simply "opinion". This isn't "garlic tastes worse than sprouts, chocolate is better than vanilla". This is a debate. You argued that Jagex doesn't care about its players or their own game, we argued back. You took offense at our arguments.

 

 

 

That's not our problem.

 

 

 

If you want a place for a one-sided tirade where nobody can oppose your ideas, make a blog. This forum is for open discussion, not soap-box speeches.

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This is not something that annoys me on a regular basis, but it annoys me from time to time, it always has. It's the fact I don't know much about Jagex. I know the basic stuff - the things that everyone knows. What bothers me is not knowing what goes on within their walls. Are they a minimum good -intentioned, or is money the only motivation? Do they tell us the truth, or tell us what we want to hear? Why are they unable to find a proper solution for bots, like all the other mmorpgs? Which kind of age range are they really marketing at? Why are they unable to enforce the fact that this game is 13+? Why are so many of the updates disappointing, while there is so many great ideas bubbling around on many fansite Runescape forums? Do they have an excuse for their horrible costumer support? Why are they unable to ban people for the good reasons, instead of banning innocents? Why have they allied with miniclip, when it was obvious it was going to ruin the community?

 

 

 

Many questions, very little answers. Any answer would be pure speculation, without proof of what is going on within those walls. For now, in my mind, Jagex is guilty until proven innocent - they have a lot of explaining to do.

 

 

 

They say they market at what they think would be fun and the 13+ rule is there mainly for a law existing in the US. It's quite possible they do remove people from the game who are under 13 but it's hard to find out whether they are under 13 or not unless they admit to it in game. Not sure where you've got the information that they ban innocent people, I don't see how you can prove that unless you have access to the evidence that was presented to them. Players can lie to you to present Jagex in a bad way I wouldn't believe everyone when they say they are innocent.

 

 

 

Not sure what the problem with Customer Support is but considering the amount of queries they get per day from 5 million players I think they do a good job. Not entirely sure why they became an affiliate of miniclip, that's exactly the type of people they don't want to be marketing at IE under 13 Americans.

 

 

 

Hi Aquiel,

 

 

 

I'm afraid I will concur Craven Image; banning players on the basis of age when they haven't violated any rules of the game would be unfair of Jagex.

 

 

 

While players should not lie about their age, for their own safety and their parent's/guardian's piece of mind, it's not Jagex that determines at what age players can play; it's the parents/guardians who should be doing that.

 

 

 

First off the Terms+Conditions if you read them state:

 

A SPECIAL NOTE ABOUT PRETEENS AND USERS UNDER 18

 

If you are under 13 years old, you must not create an account. We don't knowingly permit anyone under 13 to use this website. Nor do we knowingly collect any personally identifiable information from preteens. Internet safety experts have advised that preteens do not fully appreciate the risk of providing too much personal information online or communicating with strangers they encounter online. And the game difficulty level is for teenagers and older. While we appreciate that many preteens would want to use our websites, we urge parents to instruct their children not to lie about their age so as to be able to use our websites before they are old enough. Instead, we recommend that parents set up an account and play together with their preteens who are otherwise too young to play the Game. Many parents have reported that playing the Game as a family is fun and rewarding. Then when your children are 13 they will be ready for their own account.

 

 

 

If you are under 18, by using our website you are representing (i.e. making a promise) that you have permission from your parents or legal guardian to use our sites and to our terms and conditions and privacy policy. We reserve the right to Terminate any account if we are not satisfied that such permission has been given.

 

 

 

If we are notified by a parent that their preteen has lied about their age when registering on our site, we will Terminate the account provided we have confirmation which satisfies us that the reporting person is indeed the parent.

 

 

Above quote from "Terms+Conditions" on RuneScape.com

 

 

 

This means all players under 18 are required to have the permission of a parent or gurdian to make an account. The difference for preteens is they aren't allowed to create an account. Instead if a parent or guardian chooses, they may create an create an account for that player, and then to play alongside their preteen to ensure that preteen's safety.

 

 

 

If Jagex believes any player under 18 may not have that permission they may terminate any account, but obviously since they don't knowingly collect demographic information from preteens they would not terminate an account solely on the basis of age; but only with evidence that a player did not have permission of a parent guardian. As they state in the T+C it's likely only if you can confirm you are the parent/guardian of that player would you be able to request an account be terminated.

 

 

 

I know you have not suggested Aquiel, in any way, that any player should actively seek to out younger players due to their age; yet due to this pervasive misunderstanding of the terms & conditions sadly some players have sought to do so. Contrary to the mistaken belief about getting a player banned for admitting they're a preteen, any player extracting such information from another could be reported for harassment or soliciting personal details from another player.

 

 

 

Players should be aware now that many governments around world are are taking a hard-line against Cyberbullying; as well as being very wary of anything that might appear like solicitation which can lead to more sinister intent. This is an issue that Jagex states on their website they're very aware and active in tackling. The bottom-line is that it's impossible to tell what intent of another player is, when they ask for personal details, especially if we don't know them in real-life. Jagex also have made it clear on their website, that they don't go around asking for account information (passwords, etc.) or other personally identifiable information in game. This is why asking for age or other personal details is only likely to cast suspicion upon why anyone would go around asking for such things in order to confirm another player's age.

 

 

 

As well seeking out younger players (preteens) and haranguing them about their age would likely be seen as harassment by any parent or guardian playing alongside these younger players (they could be nearby) and they'd likely be very upset if they caught anyone doing that. I know I'd take a very dim view of any player I found harassing my younger family members who are respectful, capable & I believe mature players (in their attitudes) in RuneScape, and cause no trouble to anyone. I'm sure other parents and older relations would be similarly protective, if they found other players were trying to hound their younger family from the game.

 

 

 

That said, the whole blow-up about so-called immature players supposedly ruining the game is a based a number of misunderstandings. The maturity of any player is not solely dictated by their age. I know many parents too who have younger players in the game, younger players whom behave with a high level of maturity towards others & obey the game rules without fail; ironically many of these younger players behave more maturely at times than some players 3 times their age.

 

 

 

There are some players who exhibit behaviours that belies their supposed 'maturity' and give the impression that what the problem with this whole hoopla over age, is that irresponsible and rude players aren't "acting their age." That's because maturity is more dependant upon a person's attitude towards others, as well as being demonstrated by an their ability to be able to think for themselves to solve new problems as they arise. Sadly with the education systems we have nowadays, the inability of some players to think before they act is by far the greater problem. However, these things are not Jagex's fault.

 

 

 

Although, I realise Aquiel, you did not initiate any of these problems, I am asking that you please understand why many younger players feel they are being treated unfairly because of these malicious rumours being spread about their age group. I know I am not alone among parents and guardians who feel these tirades against our younger RuneScape players are not encouraging a mature, nor respectful attitudes, in our community by anyone. If anything the laying of blame upon younger players in our community, is more likely due to some players' misdirected frustrations with their gaming experience. It's when this frustration is being directed at other players that damage is being caused to our game and our player community.

 

 

 

Instead, I suggest, these players should ask themselves what are in-game features they truly have problem with, then go tell Jagex about those problem features, rather than targeting other players. I suspect some of these players complaining about our younger players would be upset too, if it was their family members being attacked by some irate player with a vendetta again preteens in the game.

 

 

 

It seems apparent then, Jagex aren't allowed to collect age data of any preteen by law, so calls to 'ban' these younger players are not only misdirected but pointless. All those demands to do so seem to have achieved is the channelling unwarranted disdain against some very good and capable RuneScape players, who just happen to be younger than most.

 

 

 

Right now there are real dangers to our community in the form of real-world Internet criminals. We see our governments and law enforcement agencies are beginning to respond now, to combat real threats to our gaming community. It's the infiltration of our game by these dangerous persons that should be a concern to every player and parent/guardian of every player. These are the real issues I feel we should be reminding Jagex about that could damage our game, rather than attempting to get Jagex to target those younger players. When it's these younger players whom need our care and protection since they are the vulnerable players in our game.

 

 

 

A mature attitude from players would be: if you suspect a younger player is having trouble with orientating themselves in the game, to remind them of the basics of Internet Safety.

 

 

 

* Remind them under no circumstances should they ever give out any personal details or information that might identify them or their family members outside of the game. *

 

 

 

If you don't have the time, you can simply refer any player to the comprehensive list of things they shouldn't give-out in-game to any other player, by referring them to Rule 13 - Personal Details.

 

 

 

We need inform our more vulnerable players about the help they can seek in game (Knowledge Base & Tutors), and to inform these players to always tell their parents/guardians about anyone they chat to in-game. It need not take more than a moment to truly make a difference to the overall safety and betterment of our community.

 

 

 

Being helpful to inexperienced players should never require us to disrupt our game; yet it may make the real difference to another player's real safety and enjoyment of the game.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Fey.

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