Jagex = Mystery

[Aquiel]

This is not something that annoys me on a regular basis, but it annoys me from time to time, it always has. It's the fact I don't know much about Jagex. I know the basic stuff - the things that everyone knows. What bothers me is not knowing what goes on within their walls. Are they a minimum good -intentioned, or is money the only motivation? Do they tell us the truth, or tell us what we want to hear? Why are they unable to find a proper solution for bots, like all the other mmorpgs? Which kind of age range are they really marketing at? Why are they unable to enforce the fact that this game is 13+? Why are so many of the updates disappointing, while there is so many great ideas bubbling around on many fansite Runescape forums? Do they have an excuse for their horrible costumer support? Why are they unable to ban people for the good reasons, instead of banning innocents? Why have they allied with miniclip, when it was obvious it was going to ruin the community?

 

 

 

Many questions, very little answers. Any answer would be pure speculation, without proof of what is going on within those walls. For now, in my mind, Jagex is guilty until proven innocent - they have a lot of explaining to do.

[Dragonlordjl]

They are driven solely by money. It's shown in their pathetic CS, their apathy towards the Bot problem, their half-assed updates, and their constant dumbing down of the game to make it easier for younger players.

[Huta]

"Why are they unable to find a proper solution for bots, like all the other mmorpgs?"

 

 

 

You mean like WoW, with its growing gold farming base? Like Everquest, with the 20 million accounts being sold on ebay by gold farmers?

 

 

 

Name almost any mmo with any sort of popularity, and you'll find bots and farmers. Heck, Everquest gave up on fighting them a long time ago, they don't even enforce the rule against it.

 

 

 

I went surfing the web for other mmos the other day, and even the smaller ones, like Last Chaos and ShadowBane had little notices warning about the reprocussions of buying ingame money.

 

 

 

If you think rl-traders are a RuneScape problem, you really need to try out some other games. It's hardly a problem exclusive to Jagex.

 

 

 

On another note, if all Jagex cares about is money, I don't see how ticking off the majority of the game with unpopular updates makes them any money, do you? And by that, I don't mean only the updates like the chaos shortcut, I also mean updates like the change in the single zone combat in the wilderness - something unpopular with the majority, but still beneficial and needed. It helped pkers in the only pking area they have.

[Diesel]

their apathy towards the Bot problem

 

 

 

Sums up your lack of knowledge about Jagex.

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT:400th post!

[Nopheo]

This reminds me of the tip.it times article. You should read it. It's either the newest or the last. I don't remember.

[Aquiel]

Huta. You named two mmorpgs which have severe botting problems, to make it sound like all mmorpgs have such problems with it, while that is not true. The truth is, all mmorpgs have botting, and most of them do a good job at reducing it significantly, and keeping it under control.

 

 

 

You asked me to name a popular mmo - I'm going to name Flyff, which I played for several months. Flyff has some botting, I had an in-game acquaintance whose brother botted. His brother got banned very quickly, and I never heard again of any other case of botting during my months on Flyff, nor seen any. This is the difference between botting that is out of control, like in Runescape, and botting that is under control, like in Flyff.

[Bobbington]

Jagex is a medium sized company based in Cambridge England with around 300-400 employees.

 

 

 

As from a few days ago the CEO (boss) of Jagex is Geoff Iddison, who used to be the European CEO of PayPal. He takes over from Constant Tedder.

 

 

 

The company is a development from a hobby, and not as a full business... so as such it has a very good working environment where the vast majority of staff are extreamly happy, they where voted in the top 100 companies to work for a while back.

 

 

 

Not only do Jagex care about their staff, they also care about their community trying to keep it strong and offer constant updates that they hope will please the players.

 

 

 

jagex is very much no motivated by money, although obviously as a business money is VERY important.

 

 

 

Why are so many of the updates disappointing, while there is so many great ideas bubbling around on many fansite Runescape forums?

 

 

 

It is my view that most updates are great! maybe not to my tastes but great for a large amount of people, they cannot take ideas off fan site forum due to legal reasons like copyright.

 

 

 

Why are they unable to ban people for the good reasons, instead of banning innocents?

 

Wont even tell you how wrong you are there.....

 

 

 

Why have they allied with miniclip, when it was obvious it was going to ruin the community?

 

 

 

 

It's business, Miniclip has a huge player base and they believed that the extra playerd they could gain would greatly improve the game.

 

 

 

Also with more players there is a much larger chance of the company surviving as they are less prone to damage through small changes.

[WolfhunterXZ]

Jagex is a medium sized company based in Cambridge England with around 300-400 employees.

 

 

 

As from a few days ago the CEO (boss) of Jagex is Geoff Iddison, who used to be the European CEO of PayPal. He takes over from Constant Tedder.

 

 

 

The company is a development from a hobby, and not as a full business... so as such it has a very good working environment where the vast majority of staff are extreamly happy, they where voted in the top 100 companies to work for a while back.

 

 

 

Not only do Jagex care about their staff, they also care about their community trying to keep it strong and offer constant updates that they hope will please the players.

 

 

 

jagex is very much no motivated by money, although obviously as a business money is VERY important.

 

 

 

Why are so many of the updates disappointing, while there is so many great ideas bubbling around on many fansite Runescape forums?

 

 

 

It is my view that most updates are great! maybe not to my tastes but great for a large amount of people, they cannot take ideas off fan site forum due to legal reasons like copyright.

 

 

 

Why are they unable to ban people for the good reasons, instead of banning innocents?

 

Wont even tell you how wrong you are there.....

 

 

 

Why have they allied with miniclip, when it was obvious it was going to ruin the community?

 

 

 

 

It's business, Miniclip has a huge player base and they believed that the extra playerd they could gain would greatly improve the game.

 

 

 

Also with more players there is a much larger chance of the company surviving as they are less prone to damage through small changes.

 

+(Very large number here)

 

 

 

I agree here, Bobbington here beat me to what I was going to write (well, not all of what I was going to say, but that + more.)

[Aquiel]

Bob, we have different views and opinions, that's fine.

 

 

 

You said that Jagex started as hobby, that is true, but it matters not what the company started as, what is important is what it is now, in the present.

 

 

 

Not only do Jagex care about their staff, they also care about their community trying to keep it strong and offer constant updates that they hope will please the players.

 

That's your view on it, that's fine, but don't claim it as an absolute truth, unless you have proof for those claims.

 

 

 

It is my view that most updates are great! maybe not to my tastes but great for a large amount of people, they cannot take ideas off fan site forum due to legal reasons like copyright.

 

I think their updates are largely made to attract new players. They seem very swallow to me, adding bits of random things instead of improving and solidifying what already exists. That's my opinion, of course.

 

 

 

It's quite obvious their updates will please to large amounts of people. In a game big like Runescape an update that pleases 50 000 players is not a good update, even if the amount of of satisfied players is "large". The question is: does the updates please most of the players, or a significant amount of the players, it's all about proportion.

 

 

 

I'm interested in hearing more about the legal reasons why Jagex cannot take ideas off fansites. If it's true, it will forever change how things work on fansites, so it's very important. If a mod can clarify on that, it would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

Wont even tell you how wrong you are there..... [about wrongful bans]

 

I heard many many people tell their horror story about how they got banned unfairly, or how their ban appeal got accepted even if it was complete nonsense. Unfortunately, Jagex rules prevent us from showing evidence(screenshots) of those bans/appeals. You could say that there is no evidence, but that's because Jagex prevents us from showing evidence, atleast under forums that follow Jagex guidelines. It's quite fishy if you ask me.

 

 

 

It's business, Miniclip has a huge player base and they believed that the extra playerd they could gain would greatly improve the game.

 

Don't tell me what Jagex believed or not, you aren't part of their company, you don't know. Miniclip indeed has a large player base, a very young playerbase at that. This raises the question again: Which age range is Jagex truly marketing at.

 

 

 

 

 

Also with more players there is a much larger chance of the company surviving as they are less prone to damage through small changes.

 

By allying with Miniclip, Jagex betrayed us for their personal benifit.

[Dragonlordjl]

As I said before, Jagex has hidden motives for most things they do. They claim to be controlling the bot epidemic, but they need to take more drastic measures than just 'banning a couple thousand' each week. They need to temporarily restrict account creation and/or make it so that you can only have one account registered to a specific credit card at any given time. This would not defeat the bot population, but it would hamper it to some degree.

 

 

 

Also, I agree with the shallowness of their updates. Instead of making completely new areas and content, fill in what already exists. Add things to the upper ends of skills, giving an incentive for people to train past level 80, which is around where most skills cease to bring anything useful into the game by continuing to level them.

[Bobbington]

For a while it did seem that Jagex updates where just aimed at newer players (the reason for this is it's where 90% players are found) however there was a large campaign on the forums how higher level player who had been loyal to Jagex had been neglected for a very long time. After a while it began to grow allot of Jmod support to, even from Paul him self.

 

 

 

High level content and more fair updates where promised, and as far as I can see over the last few months it has slowly worked it's way through the development process. I feel the point of shallow updates although was once true, is now not applicable as they are making the effort to change.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the legal stuff.....

 

 

 

By posting chat or other materials on this website, you grant us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty free worldwide license to use and/or modify such materials on this website as we see fit.

 

 

 

You agree that by submitting any material of any kind to us for any purpose connected with the Game or website (non-exhaustive examples are suggestions and ideas for the Game or contributions to the Gallery page), you are giving us a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free license to use and/or modify the submitted materials as we see fit. You agree that you will not withdraw the submission or attempt to make a charge for its use. Furthermore you guarantee that you are the exclusive copyright holder in relation to the submission and that the submission in no way breaches the rights of any other person or entity.

 

 

 

This is the important bit of the Terms and conditions of the site, basically if you post on the forums, or send in a suggestion, or talk about it in game it gives Jagex the right to use it.

 

 

 

Although it will remain your property, and you will remain copyright over your ideas, you have agreed that Jagex can use it, in anyway they want, and you don't have the right to withdraw permission.

 

 

 

That is how the suggestions system works, they take ideas from the forums, that have been given by player and they are able to use them.

 

 

 

As for fan sites..... tip.it for example has no such section in it's terms and conditions, and thus if Jagex where to take an idea from the tip.it forums and make it it is copyright theft unless the thread maker stated that it is ok for use (and all other bit's that can make it for use)

 

 

 

For an example click the thieving guild link in my signature. you will notice my message at the top.... that make it legal for use (I believe it's the only legal one on tip.it)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not only do Jagex care about their staff, they also care about their community trying to keep it strong and offer constant updates that they hope will please the players.

 

 

 

That's your view on it, that's fine, but don't claim it as an absolute truth, unless you have proof for those claims.

 

 

 

As a forum mod on the official forums I do get a fairly friendly relationship with some of the Jmods, as such I get to learn a few things and honestly believe the vast majority of Jagex really care about the community. Bots are indeed a huge issue, and I think you would be amazed to learn how much they do against them...... but it is a huge never ending job.

[TrampInDenial]

I do agree with some of your points, their joining with miniclip has fuelled the inflow of immature little brats, they could do better when it comes to bots and the customer support is a joke.

[Aquiel]

It's true that Jagex has started adding more high level updates. But I feel they are of the same swallow kind. I would prefer to see additions to existing skills, and areas I feel have been negected, or left unfinished. That's my preference, to each their own.

 

 

 

It would be a shame to lose all those good suggestions because of people's unawareness of the copyright. If you're right, a mod should make a sticky about it, to make people aware of it. Since you have technical knowledge of it, you could pm a Tip.it mod to bring this to their attention?

[The Observer]

If the bots get removed, gold farmers would move in. It's very hard to ban gold farmers. The only way to ban them is if the actual account is being sold, or exclusive proof is being given that the person is real world item trading.

[Aquiel]

If the bots get removed, gold farmers would move in.

 

Hmm, perhaps. It depends if gold farming on Runescape is as profitable and viable as gold farming on other mmorpgs. If it isn't, the gold farming companies will not be interested into sending their gold farmers on Runescape.

 

 

 

If Runescape is profitable and viable to them, then they will send their gold farmers. It would still be an improvement compared to those invasive computer-generated bots. Atleast gold farmers are human beings, doing what they have to do to survive.

[The Observer]

If the bots get removed, gold farmers would move in.

 

Hmm, perhaps. It depends if gold farming on Runescape is as profitable and viable as gold farming on other mmorpgs. If it isn't, the gold farming companies will not be interested into sending their gold farmers on Runescape.

 

 

 

If Runescape is profitable and viable to them, then they will send their gold farmers. It would still be an improvement compared to those invasive computer-generated bots. Atleast gold farmers are human beings, doing what they have to do to survive.

 

 

 

The only way bots and gold farmers will be removed completely is if RuneScape dies out. If a game becomes popular, there will always be gold farmers and autoers. It's as simple as that. When a rich and lazy individual plays a time-consuming game like RuneScape, they will be enticed to buy RuneScape Gold due to the shear ease.

 

 

 

I would like to add that other MMORPGS are trying to remove the autoer problem. They are having as much success as RuneScape right now. The only difference is, the gold farmers outweigh the autoers.

[Aquiel]

The only way bots and gold farmers will be removed completely is if RuneScape dies out. If a game becomes popular, there will always be gold farmers and autoers. It's as simple as that. When a rich and lazy individual plays a time-consuming game like RuneScape, they will be enticed to buy RuneScape Gold due to the shear ease.

 

 

 

Killer, your last post made you sound like you believed that because things will never be perfect, it's fine to accept the situation as it is now.

 

 

 

You have to understand that even if things will never be perfect, it is not an excuse to be inactive about it, or to accept mediocrity. The goal when fighting botting is to keep it under control. Many mmorpgs have succeeded at keeping it under control. No mmorpgs have ever completely got rid of it - and that is irrelevant because that's not the point. The point is to keep it under control.

 

 

 

Jagex have failed at it, time and time again, despite their efforts. As Dragonlord pointed out, Jagex will need to take some more drastic measures if they hope to get rid of the botters.

 

 

 

New random events are temporary solutions - the botting programmers create scripts to complete those new random events shortly after they are released.

 

 

 

Mass banning is a temporary solution - the people who own the botters expect their botter to be banned. That is hardly a blow to them, becasue they will just create another bot.

 

 

 

Jagex have been tackling the consequences, instead of tackling the cause, and attacking the problem at the source(which I believe is the lack of security Runescape suffers from because it is browser based, but that's just my opinion).

 

 

 

As I pointed out, if Runescape succeeds in getting rid of most of the botting problem, then gold farmers may come on Runescape, but only if it is profitable and viable to do so. It would be a much more bearable problem that botting. In all cases, the gold farming companies will use botting as long as they will be able to, it is cheaper and more efficent than gold farmers. That is why talking about gold farmers is irrelevant at this point in time, that debate is for another time.

[Huta]

Huta. You named two mmorpgs which have severe botting problems, to make it sound like all mmorpgs have such problems with it, while that is not true. The truth is, all mmorpgs have botting, and most of them do a good job at reducing it significantly, and keeping it under control.

 

 

 

You asked me to name a popular mmo - I'm going to name Flyff, which I played for several months. Flyff has some botting, I had an in-game acquaintance whose brother botted. His brother got banned very quickly, and I never heard again of any other case of botting during my months on Flyff, nor seen any. This is the difference between botting that is out of control, like in Runescape, and botting that is under control, like in Flyff.

 

 

 

Honestly, I've never heard of Flyff, but I do have some experience with both Everquest and World of Warcraft. No WoW player ever accused Blizz of being greedy or uncaring (at least not seriously =p) Occasionally someone would whine that the GMs are too strict, or complain about the changes the lastest patch caused, or whatever - but that's about all...and they still have the same problems RuneScape does.

 

 

 

Personally, the only game I've ever seen that doesn't have a botting problem is the one I've been playing a bit lately, Shadowbane, and that's more to do with its pvp system than any special measures taken by the company running it. (Pk anywhere, guild system, very complex combat system - a bot wouldn't last more than a few seconds in a hotzone.) That's not to mention that money isn't a goal like it is in this game, more of a means.

 

 

 

Another one of the things aiding the botting problem is the nature of RuneScape itself...it's a posterchild of a grind mmo, with no get-rich-quick schemes. It's a browser-based, simple to operate, game, with easily macroed controls. Add this to its runaway success, and you have a botting problem waiting to happen. When it takes several hundred hours to get decent skills to make money with, and even more using those skills, it's inevitable that people will try the easy way with buying gp from somebody - making RuneScape one of the most profitable rpgs on the market for a botter org.

 

 

 

Blaming this all on Jagex really isn't fair...

[Aquiel]

Blaming this all on Jagex really isn't fair...

 

I agree with your point. But ultimately, this is their game. It is them who have decided to make it the way it is now, and they are the only ones who can do something about it. And when, time after time, they fail to do something about the botting: it's very discouraging, and it's normal that people get upset.

 

 

 

Maybe adding a Cash Shop is the only realistic way to get rid of the botters. People wanting to spend money on Runescape could buy Cash Shop items, whose value in gp would be elevated, thus it would be an indirect way to "buy" gp. I'm not sure what's worse, a CS, or this botting problem...

[Master_Smither]

Are we talking about Jagex or macrosd/gold farmers here :|

 

 

 

We don't know much about them because they are not a big company. Face it they are a small company that produces millions.

 

 

 

Also check out their website it's pretty kool.

[Huta]

Blaming this all on Jagex really isn't fair...

 

I agree with your point. But ultimately, this is their game. It is them who have decided to make it the way it is now, and they are the only ones who can do something about it. And when, time after time, they fail to do something about the botting: it's very discouraging, and it's normal that people get upset.

 

 

 

Maybe adding a Cash Shop is the only realistic way to get rid of the botters. People wanting to spend money on Runescape could buy Cash Shop items, whose value in gp would be elevated, thus it would be an indirect way to "buy" gp. I'm not sure what's worse, a CS, or this botting problem...

 

 

 

That wouldn't solve a thing, the bots would simply provide the same materials for a lower price.

 

 

 

As far as I can see, there's just about nothing that can be done to fix the macro problem without radically changing the entire game's goals. I suppose you could take the method I mentioned before, and make RS a pk-everywhere system, maybe add some player guilds for individual protection while training, but can you imagine the rants that would come from the skiller base?

 

 

 

So far you've attacked Jagex's lack of ideas, but haven't even provided any of your own.

[Aquiel]

That wouldn't solve a thing, the bots would simply provide the same materials for a lower price.

 

That's true, but you're forgetting that a lot of people would start buying from the Cash Shop now that it would be a legitimate way to spend their money. Also, people feel safer when buying from legit source, than when buying from websites that could scam them. If you still have doubts: Flyff is a perfect example of the success of Cash Shops at keeping the botters away, ask anyone who played the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So far you've attacked Jagex's lack of ideas, but haven't even provided any of your own.

 

1) Why are you trying to pick a fight? 2) I just have provided an idea: a Cash Shop. 3) This post is a rant, not a suggestion topic. 4) Jagex is a company with paid employees, this is their game, the responsability to provide solutions to their self-created botting problem lies with them.

[Huta]

That wouldn't solve a thing, the bots would simply provide the same materials for a lower price.

 

That's true, but you're forgetting that a lot of people would start buying from the Cash Shop now that it would be a legitimate way to spend their money. Also, people feel safer when buying from legit source, than when buying from websites that could scam them. If you still have doubts: Flyff is a perfect example of the success of Cash Shops at keeping the botters away, ask anyone who played the game.

 

 

 

True.

 

 

 

Let's say they release the cash shop, and one of the items is a nice shiny dragon platebody for $25. That item goes into circulation in the game, and gets a market value of about 10m. (pretty decent for something that accessable).

 

 

 

All the botters have to do is sell their e-gold for $2 per 1m, and somebody could get the plate for cheaper. The botters simply have to lower their prices to below Jagex' values, and they stay in business.

 

 

 

 

So far you've attacked Jagex's lack of ideas, but haven't even provided any of your own.

 

1) Why are you trying to pick a fight? 2) I just have provided an idea: a Cash Shop. 3) This post is a rant, not a suggestion topic. 4) Jagex is a company with paid employees, this is their game, the responsability to provide solutions to their self-created botting problem lies with them.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I was referring to the fact that you go down a list of complaints, but don't offer any solutions. True, this isn't a suggestion thread, but from personal experience I think it's far too easy to blindly complain about something that's wrong than try and find a solution.

 

 

 

The deal is, if someone were to sit down and try to think of lasting answers to the macroer/gold farmer problem, it's hard to come up with a cure.

 

 

 

Way I see it, Jagex is stumped as to what they can do to fix the problems cropping up in RuneScape. Even the slightest stuff they do, like the shop update and the change to the wilderness (both updates that struck at botters) gets hit with the flame bat megatime. It's not easy to fix a problem when every time you take a stab at a solution you get flamed by the people you're trying to help.

[Aquiel]

All the botters have to do is sell their e-gold for $2 per 1m, and somebody could get the plate for cheaper. The botters simply have to lower their prices to below Jagex' values, and they stay in business.

 

 

You are wrong if you think everybody is ready to cheat(and promote botting) simply to get something cheaper. A lot of people know better than that.

 

 

 

 

I think it's far too easy to blindly complain about something that's wrong than try and find a solution.

 

I think it's far too easy to criticize the person having an opinion than criticizing the opinion itself. What I do or not do, is none of your business. We all have very reasons to ask ourselves questions about Jagex' intentions. If nobody keeps Jagex on their toes, they will end up doing whatever they want, and what they want is not always good for the players, Miniclip is a perfect example.

[Huta]

All the botters have to do is sell their e-gold for $2 per 1m, and somebody could get the plate for cheaper. The botters simply have to lower their prices to below Jagex' values, and they stay in business.

 

 

You are wrong if you think everybody is ready to cheat(and promote botting) simply to get something cheaper. A lot of people know better than that.

 

 

 

 

I think it's far too easy to blindly complain about something that's wrong than try and find a solution.

 

I think it's far too easy to criticize the person having an opinion than criticizing the opinion itself. What I do or not do, is none of your business.

 

 

 

I don't know why you're taking offense, I'm not trying to tell you to do anything. I showed why I disagreed with your post, that's all. I disagreed with your idea, but it's not something personal. If that offends you, then I'm afraid debate isn't for you.