Is God real post your thoughts!

[Nenga]

 

 

 

If god willfully sends someone to a situation where they have no options but to suffer then god is punishing them.

 

 

 

 

 

God does it because he respects your decision. He's not punishing you, YOU are punishing you by choosing "no thanks." He respects your free will, so YOU choose by your own free will to go. He wants to be with you, but, he's not calling the shots, you are. If someone doesn't want to be with him then there is only one other place you can go, which is hell. It's either Heaven (being totally with God) or Hell (being totally without God). There is no "middle ground."

 

 

 

Like I said. The actual punishment is the absence of God.

 

 

 

So are you saying there is no fire or torture?

 

 

 

If so then hell seems fun, I mean if its just the abscense of god I think I can live with that; all the atheists in the world don't seem to be writhing in pain.

 

You do the exact same thing in Hell as in Heaven. The only difference is that in Heaven you are happy and willing to do it and in Hell you are sad and angry about having to do it. And it works, so don't question it.

 

 

 

God tells you you can enter heaven and live in eternal joy and bliss, you just have to ask. It's not hard to ask, so any little sin you don't pray for deserves a large scale punishment, although the punishment is not really a punishment rather just not a reward.

 

Everyone has there own mind and it's wrong to say they'll all think the same way. Heaven or hell if you don't want to do something you won't like it.

 

I never said that everyone does the same thing as others, I said that Heaven and Hell are the same, except in one you enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy, the other you do exactly what you would do in the other, just in forced punishment.

 

Maybe i'm interpreting you wrong then. You said you do the same thing in both places. So if you do the same thing in both places, and everyone has free will, then everyone will fill differently about it. So it may not be torture to everyone.

[Hedgehog]

[hide=]

 

 

 

If god willfully sends someone to a situation where they have no options but to suffer then god is punishing them.

 

 

 

 

 

God does it because he respects your decision. He's not punishing you, YOU are punishing you by choosing "no thanks." He respects your free will, so YOU choose by your own free will to go. He wants to be with you, but, he's not calling the shots, you are. If someone doesn't want to be with him then there is only one other place you can go, which is hell. It's either Heaven (being totally with God) or Hell (being totally without God). There is no "middle ground."

 

 

 

Like I said. The actual punishment is the absence of God.

 

 

 

So are you saying there is no fire or torture?

 

 

 

If so then hell seems fun, I mean if its just the abscense of god I think I can live with that; all the atheists in the world don't seem to be writhing in pain.

 

You do the exact same thing in Hell as in Heaven. The only difference is that in Heaven you are happy and willing to do it and in Hell you are sad and angry about having to do it. And it works, so don't question it.

 

 

 

God tells you you can enter heaven and live in eternal joy and bliss, you just have to ask. It's not hard to ask, so any little sin you don't pray for deserves a large scale punishment, although the punishment is not really a punishment rather just not a reward.

 

Everyone has there own mind and it's wrong to say they'll all think the same way. Heaven or hell if you don't want to do something you won't like it.

 

I never said that everyone does the same thing as others, I said that Heaven and Hell are the same, except in one you enjoy what you do and do what you enjoy, the other you do exactly what you would do in the other, just in forced punishment.

 

Maybe i'm interpreting you wrong then. You said you do the same thing in both places. So if you do the same thing in both places, and everyone has free will, then everyone will fill differently about it. So it may not be torture to everyone.

[/hide]

 

It works like this: In Heaven, whatever you do is a reward, thus you are happy to do it. In Hell, whatever you do is a punishment, thus you are angry/sad/frustrated/mad to do it. It doesn't matter if they are the exact same thing. I think I may not be saying it clearly enough for anyone to understand, if so I apologize and I'll try again. I don't want you to misinterpret me.

[Zierro]

It works like this: In Heaven, whatever you do is a reward, thus you are happy to do it. In Hell, whatever you do is a punishment, thus you are angry/sad/frustrated/mad to do it. It doesn't matter if they are the exact same thing. I think I may not be saying it clearly enough for anyone to understand, if so I apologize and I'll try again. I don't want you to misinterpret me.

 

 

 

So, no matter what activity you do in hell, it will always make you miserable - even if it was something you loved doing while on earth? Sorry if I misinterpreted. I'm just trying to get this cleared up.

[Hedgehog]

It works like this: In Heaven, whatever you do is a reward, thus you are happy to do it. In Hell, whatever you do is a punishment, thus you are angry/sad/frustrated/mad to do it. It doesn't matter if they are the exact same thing. I think I may not be saying it clearly enough for anyone to understand, if so I apologize and I'll try again. I don't want you to misinterpret me.

 

 

 

So, no matter what activity you do in hell, it will always make you miserable - even if it was something you loved doing while on earth? Sorry if I misinterpreted. I'm just trying to get this cleared up.

 

Yup.

[22pepsi22]

The main point I was bringing up was basically this. Hell sucks because happiness is not present in the slightest form. Why is it not present? Because God is not present in Hell. Since God = the root of all happiness, no God = no happiness.

 

 

 

When you are in Hell it is pure sadness. Hell is also inescapable. Once you choose Hell there is no turning back. God cannot hear you in Hell. You are separated from Him completely.

 

 

 

Can you tap dance in hell? Maybe. Will you have fun doing it? No. Can you go to the movies in Hell? Possibly. Will you ever enjoy the movie? No. Can you tell jokes in Hell? Perhaps. Will you ever be able to laugh at jokes? No

 

 

 

You get the idea. No happiness. Maybe even torture by Satan. Is Satan happy? I should say not. Whether you are tortured by being whipped, tossed in lava, or what have you, you would be just as sad as if you were watching a movie in hell. The only difference would probably be the involvement of pain.

 

 

 

And like I said, God does not willingly send you there. You MAKE him send you there. Because it's either Heaven or Hell. It's your choice, so you choose.

 

 

 

Anyways, that's what my faith teaches. I think I've had enough discussion for today. Later.

[Kiriyama]

Honestly, I'm more inclined to believe that it is possible to start life over if you have been sent to hell, if you repent for your sins. However, as a punishment, you don't know what your sin is, and it is also used to torture you.

 

 

 

God loves all his creations, and must be willing to give them more chances, as long as they repent.

 

 

 

That is if there is a God and afterlife of course.

[mmmcannibalism]

It works like this: In Heaven, whatever you do is a reward, thus you are happy to do it. In Hell, whatever you do is a punishment, thus you are angry/sad/frustrated/mad to do it. It doesn't matter if they are the exact same thing. I think I may not be saying it clearly enough for anyone to understand, if so I apologize and I'll try again. I don't want you to misinterpret me.

 

 

 

So, when I choose to go to heaven and spend all eternity blaspheming god for creating hell it will be a blast right?

 

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I think your just stuck in your blind ideology. Its rather obvious your "faith" is based solely on defending itself against all reasonable objection. God doesn't punish anyone yet people are in hell; hmm it would seem if god sends them to hell for eternal punishment he is punishing them. If you parents sent you to the corner when you were little for not apologizing it would be considered punishing you, yet when god does it he is "forced to". Of course, its even more amusing that your loving god would rather send someone to eternal torment then simply end their apparently miserable existence; or is he just forced to torture people?

 

 

 

edit--your sig gets more and more ironic each time I look at it.

[22pepsi22]

 

So, when I choose to go to heaven and spend all eternity blaspheming god for creating hell it will be a blast right?

 

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I think your just stuck in your blind ideology. Its rather obvious your "faith" is based solely on defending itself against all reasonable objection. God doesn't punish anyone yet people are in hell; hmm it would seem if god sends them to hell for eternal punishment he is punishing them. If you parents sent you to the corner when you were little for not apologizing it would be considered punishing you, yet when god does it he is "forced to". Of course, its even more amusing that your loving god would rather send someone to eternal torment then simply end their apparently miserable existence; or is he just forced to torture people?

 

 

 

edit--your sig gets more and more ironic each time I look at it.

 

 

 

Well to be perfectly honest, everyone has their own beliefs. You've asked questions and I've done my best to answer. No need to start the "you're stuck in your own religion" stuff.

 

 

 

It's fairly easy to understand the reasoning. The whole thing revolves from a central idea. God is happiness (Bear with me, lol). How could Hell be Hell with God's existence in it? Hell that isn't completely sad or cut-off from God isn't Hell, it's called LIFE. You can't enjoy Hell at all, because there's no happiness to be happy about it! And if you died and wound up in another life, it's called re-incarnation. My faith believes you are not re-incarnated.

 

 

 

Now, the reasoning behind "Hell is a one-way ticket." are sent to Hell when they make a remorseless (remorseless being that they truly have no guilt whatsoever of committing their sins) decision to choose Hell over God. They go to Hell because 1. They reject Heaven and 2. The only other place there is, is Hell. It's either you are worthy now, not worthy, but will be, or not worthy, and never will be.

 

 

 

Why does God not simply destroy them and end their suffering? Because they chose the suffering. To destroy them would be to deny them of their free will. And their choice would have been to reject God, therefore they reject happiness. That is what they truly wished for. An eternity without happiness (Getting repetitive, I know.)

 

 

 

And God did not create Hell. Sin, Satan's action, created Hell. He resides there as there is nowhere else he can reside. In the beginning, life was perfect. That basically was Heaven. Sin tarnished the perfect world, so, thus Jesus Christ's death and the New Eternal Kingdom's existence.

 

 

 

It makes sense in a reasonable manner. If you were to punch an old helpless lady and not feel sorry for it, then you're probably going to hell. If you would feel sorry, or, not even do it, then you're basically safe. And this is true remorse, not that silly childish "I'm sorry, now don't take away the video games, please."

 

 

 

Wow, that was a really long-winded one. Sorry for the massive text blocks.

[mmmcannibalism]

[hide=]

 

So, when I choose to go to heaven and spend all eternity blaspheming god for creating hell it will be a blast right?

 

 

 

To be perfectly honest, I think your just stuck in your blind ideology. Its rather obvious your "faith" is based solely on defending itself against all reasonable objection. God doesn't punish anyone yet people are in hell; hmm it would seem if god sends them to hell for eternal punishment he is punishing them. If you parents sent you to the corner when you were little for not apologizing it would be considered punishing you, yet when god does it he is "forced to". Of course, its even more amusing that your loving god would rather send someone to eternal torment then simply end their apparently miserable existence; or is he just forced to torture people?

 

 

 

edit--your sig gets more and more ironic each time I look at it.

 

 

 

Well to be perfectly honest, everyone has their own beliefs. You've asked questions and I've done my best to answer. No need to start the "you're stuck in your own religion" stuff.

 

 

 

It's fairly easy to understand the reasoning. The whole thing revolves from a central idea. God is happiness (Bear with me, lol). How could Hell be Hell with God's existence in it? Hell that isn't completely sad or cut-off from God isn't Hell, it's called LIFE. You can't enjoy Hell at all, because there's no happiness to be happy about it! And if you died and wound up in another life, it's called re-incarnation. My faith believes you are not re-incarnated.

 

 

 

Now, the reasoning behind "Hell is a one-way ticket." are sent to Hell when they make a remorseless (remorseless being that they truly have no guilt whatsoever of committing their sins) decision to choose Hell over God. They go to Hell because 1. They reject Heaven and 2. The only other place there is, is Hell. It's either you are worthy now, not worthy, but will be, or not worthy, and never will be.

 

 

 

Why does God not simply destroy them and end their suffering? Because they chose the suffering. To destroy them would be to deny them of their free will. And their choice would have been to reject God, therefore they reject happiness. That is what they truly wished for. An eternity without happiness (Getting repetitive, I know.)

 

 

 

And God did not create Hell. Sin, Satan's action, created Hell. He resides there as there is nowhere else he can reside. In the beginning, life was perfect. That basically was Heaven. Sin tarnished the perfect world, so, thus Heaven's existence.

 

 

 

It makes sense in a reasonable manner. If you were to punch an old helpless lady and not feel sorry for it, then you're probably going to hell. If you would feel sorry, or, not even do it, then you're basically safe. And this is true remorse, not that silly childish "I'm sorry, now don't take away the video games, please."

 

 

 

Wow, that was a really long-winded one. Sorry for the massive text blocks.

[/hide]

 

 

 

Of course there is still one serious flaw here

 

 

 

a. you said god cannot hear you in hell

 

b. you said god accepts forgiveness

 

 

 

So, your basically saying that once you end up in hell; even if you become remorseful later god is still going to let you burn forever.

[22pepsi22]

God cannot hear you in Hell, correct.

 

 

 

God does forgive if you WANT to be forgiven. In which case you would go to either Purgatory or Heaven, depending on whether you are "clean" or not.

 

 

 

Once you are in Hell, it is too late, however. God cannot hear your cries, because you would have chosen to shut him out for the rest of your existence.

[mmmcannibalism]

Once you are in Hell, it is too late, however. God cannot hear your cries, because you would have chosen to shut him out for the rest of your existence.

 

 

 

Which means he is now ignoring you free will in your choise to be remorseful. If god won't forgive someone once they are in hell then he is permiting infinite punishment for a finite crime.

 

 

 

Even someone who murdered 100 people has commited a measurable amount of evil; burning them for hell in eternity even if they show remorse after a few years is being cruel and unjust.

[22pepsi22]

Once you are in Hell, it is too late, however. God cannot hear your cries, because you would have chosen to shut him out for the rest of your existence.

 

 

 

Which means he is now ignoring you free will in your choise to be remorseful. If god won't forgive someone once they are in hell then he is permiting infinite punishment for a finite crime.

 

 

 

Even someone who murdered 100 people has commited a measurable amount of evil; burning them for hell in eternity even if they show remorse after a few years is being cruel and unjust.

 

 

 

 

 

You did read where I stated individual and final judgement didn't you?

 

 

 

[hide=][/hide]

[mmmcannibalism]

If you are still involving eternal damnation(even if its after final judgement) you are still punishing some people an infinite amount for a finite amount of sin.

[Shinjula]

Obvious question 22pepsi22, where are you getting this information?

 

 

 

Because none of this is church dogma, it seems to me this is just a created justification.

 

 

 

It also contradicts some of the more basic tenets of Christianity - how can you be cut off from god when he omnipresent and all knowing?

[22pepsi22]

If you are still involving eternal damnation(even if its after final judgement) you are still punishing some people an infinite amount for a finite amount of sin.

 

 

 

Which goes back to what I am saying about God not existing in Hell. How can you know if someone has become remorseful if you have absolute zero contact with them?

 

 

 

This is turning from a "does God exist or not" discussion into a "well that doesn't seem fair of God."

 

 

 

When you choose Hell, there is nothing God can do for you anymore.

 

 

 

It's like a Shepherd and a lamb. If the lamb runs off, the Shepherd will follow to save and bring back the lamb. If the lamb willingly walks into the mouth of the wolf, then The Shepherd cannot save the lamb. All The Shepherd can do is mourn the loss of the lamb, and let it go.

 

 

 

Much like when someone enters Hell, God can do nothing but mourn the loss of that person, respect their decision, and let them go.

 

 

 

God's hands are tied, and the one who rejected him was holding the rope.

[22pepsi22]

Obvious question 22pepsi22, where are you getting this information?

 

 

 

Because none of this is church dogma, it seems to me this is just a created justification.

 

 

 

It also contradicts some of the more basic tenets of Christianity - how can you be cut off from god when he omnipresent and all knowing?

 

 

 

This is what I was taught through my Catholic School. It has all been confirmed to me by priests who aided in the teaching of it.

 

 

 

God is also omnipotent, do not forget that. The very definition of Hell that Christians are taught is that Hell - The absence of God. God is not present in Hell, because it goes against his very will.

 

 

 

Just remember, this is faith. This is what is believed. And sometimes the answer is "I don't know." As a matter of fact, that is what faith is; believing, not knowing. If you always knew everything, it wouldn't be faith. I don't think I have declared any of this to you that it WILL happen, but my faith believes it will. I have only told what is believed.

[Zierro]

This is turning from a "does God exist or not" discussion into a "well that doesn't seem fair of God."

 

 

 

Well, it used to be a thread about biscuits. I love Off Topic because you can stray off the main subject a little and still have decent debates.

 

 

 

It's like a Shepherd and a lamb. If the lamb runs off, the Shepherd will follow to save and bring back the lamb. If the lamb willingly walks into the mouth of the wolf, then The Shepherd cannot save the lamb. All The Shepherd can do is mourn the loss of the lamb, and let it go.

 

 

 

But the difference between God and the shepherd is that God created everything. He created the sheep's ability to run off and be eaten by the wolf. The shepherd is just a normal guy without universal powers or anything of the sort. Of course the shepherd can't do anything to save the sheep, but if we're talking about something that is all-powerful, then what exactly is stopping him from saving that sheep?

 

 

 

If you are still involving eternal damnation(even if its after final judgement) you are still punishing some people an infinite amount for a finite amount of sin.

 

 

 

Can we really put measurements like that on sin and punishment? I don't think that's something that can accurately be quantified. I am a believer that the punishment should fit the crime, but these things are far too abstract to define.

[22pepsi22]

This is turning from a "does God exist or not" discussion into a "well that doesn't seem fair of God."

 

 

 

Well, it used to be a thread about biscuits. I love Off Topic because you can stray off the main subject a little and still have decent debates.

 

 

 

It's like a Shepherd and a lamb. If the lamb runs off, the Shepherd will follow to save and bring back the lamb. If the lamb willingly walks into the mouth of the wolf, then The Shepherd cannot save the lamb. All The Shepherd can do is mourn the loss of the lamb, and let it go.

 

 

 

But the difference between God and the shepherd is that God created everything. He created the sheep's ability to run off and be eaten by the wolf. The shepherd is just a normal guy without universal powers or anything of the sort. Of course the shepherd can't do anything to save the sheep, but if we're talking about something that is all-powerful, then what exactly is stopping him from saving that sheep?

 

 

 

If you are still involving eternal damnation(even if its after final judgement) you are still punishing some people an infinite amount for a finite amount of sin.

 

 

 

Can we really put measurements like that on sin and punishment? I don't think that's something that can accurately be quantified.

 

 

 

It's an alteration of the biblical story of the Shepherd (God) and the lamb (humanity). The only thing I altered was the involvement of the lamb (humanity) being eaten (entering) by the wolf (hell.) Yes, we know the Shepherd in reality did not create the lamb, but that's not what the story is about. God cannot save what he cannot save without breaking his promise of free will. He can only call us back to the flock when we go astray. But, when we ignore that calling and are eaten by the Wolf (Hell), there's nothing he can do anymore. Like I said, His hands are essentially tied. We basically choose our own fate. God will not commit a sin against us.

 

 

 

Free will is a very big part of this.

[Zierro]

God cannot

 

 

 

This means God isn't omnipotent then.

[22pepsi22]

God cannot

 

 

 

This means God isn't omnipotent then.

 

 

 

The rest of the sentence is important. I did not say God cannot because he doesn't have the power to, but God cannot do it without breaking His promise, which He WON'T. He COULD if He wanted to, but he won't because it would be a sin against us.

 

 

 

An abusive god is not my faith's view of God.

[warri0r45]

 

Just remember, this is faith. This is what is believed. And sometimes the answer is "I don't know." As a matter of fact, that is what faith is; believing, not knowing. If you always knew everything, it wouldn't be faith. I don't think I have declared any of this to you that it WILL happen, but my faith believes it will. I have only told what is believed.

 

 

 

Why just believe something if you don't have any indication that it's true? What's the point besides a sense of emotional comfort and why don't you value the truth above all else?

[22pepsi22]

 

Just remember, this is faith. This is what is believed. And sometimes the answer is "I don't know." As a matter of fact, that is what faith is; believing, not knowing. If you always knew everything, it wouldn't be faith. I don't think I have declared any of this to you that it WILL happen, but my faith believes it will. I have only told what is believed.

 

 

 

Why just believe something if you don't have any indication that it's true? What's the point besides a sense of emotional comfort and why don't you value the truth above all else?

 

 

 

 

 

When I profess that I believe in God, it means more to me than just saying I believe in Him. It's like I feel somewhere in my heart that it is true. That is faith. It's believing without seeing. I accept it. Nobody forced me to, I just feel that it is true of my own free will. May sound corny/crazy to someone who doesn't believe (sorry if I'm wrong in assuming you don't), but, that's the best I can explain it, I'm afraid. In essence, you feel it. You don't know it with the mind, you know it with the heart.

 

 

 

That's probably where a lot of the "brainwash" theories and such come in to play. Nobody said religion was easy. Let me tell you, it certainly is not. There are many questions, but God is the ultimate being. He cannot be comprehended completely. I believe He 1. exists and He 2. loves me. (I believe he also loves you, as well. He loves everyone.)

 

 

 

Sorry if it's hard to understand, but, faith is hard.

 

 

 

 

 

And one last thing. It seems that the back and forth debate I've been having with various people has reached the point where I just can't answer any further. Discussing the mysteries that is God Himself is beyond my grasp. For example:

 

 

 

God cannot

 

 

 

This means God isn't omnipotent then.

 

 

 

The rest of the sentence is important. I did not say God cannot because he doesn't have the power to, but God cannot do it without breaking His promise, which He WON'T. He COULD if He wanted to, but he won't because it would be a sin against us.

 

 

 

An abusive god is not my faith's view of God.

 

 

 

I did say He can't deny free will without committing a sin against us. However, I had confused myself. He CAN deny free will without committing a sin against us. It's the rule of omnipotence. He can do whatever He wants, and it's right, because He is all-powerful. The discussion on God is the ultimate good, He is perfect, He can do no wrong is also true. And omniscience means He CAN see into Hell, and Omnipresence means he IS in Hell, even though the definition of Hell is "the absence of God." He can still be present, while not being present at the same time. He can see, while not see at the same time. It's a paradox, and I won't even attempt to solve it, because I can't. Nobody can.

 

 

 

Basically, omni-anything is the ABILITY. The question is whether he CHOOSES to or not. /headache.

[warri0r45]

 

Just remember, this is faith. This is what is believed. And sometimes the answer is "I don't know." As a matter of fact, that is what faith is; believing, not knowing. If you always knew everything, it wouldn't be faith. I don't think I have declared any of this to you that it WILL happen, but my faith believes it will. I have only told what is believed.

 

 

 

Why just believe something if you don't have any indication that it's true? What's the point besides a sense of emotional comfort and why don't you value the truth above all else?

 

 

 

 

 

When I profess that I believe in God, it means more to me than just saying I believe in Him. It's like I feel somewhere in my heart that it is true. That is faith. It's believing without seeing. I accept it. Nobody forced me to, I just feel that it is true of my own free will. May sound corny/crazy to someone who doesn't believe (sorry if I'm wrong in assuming you don't), but, that's the best I can explain it, I'm afraid. In essence, you feel it. You don't know it with the mind, you know it with the heart.

 

 

 

That's probably where a lot of the "brainwash" theories and such come in to play. Nobody said religion was easy. Let me tell you, it certainly is not. There are many questions, but God is the ultimate being. He cannot be comprehended completely. I believe He 1. exists and He 2. loves me.

 

 

 

Sorry if it's hard to understand, but, faith is hard.

 

 

 

It's ok, I'm not a Christian or a theist. To be honest I do find it hard to understand why people have faith; fundamentally I see it as irrational because we should only believe things if we have sufficient evidence of their truth. Following your heart is a rather romantic concept, but I can't give it any more credence than a Hollywood love story.

 

 

 

I have to say though, it's refreshing to see a Christian discuss his beliefs so candidly without feeling victimised because of the often heated nature of the debate. Good on you, seriously. :thumbup:

[22pepsi22]

 

 

 

I have to say though, it's refreshing to see a Christian discuss his beliefs so candidly without feeling victimised because of the often heated nature of the debate. Good on you, seriously. :thumbup:

 

 

 

I appreciate it. We are all only searching for truth.

 

 

 

I've had my fill, so I'm going to take off. Later.

[Shinjula]

Why just believe something if you don't have any indication that it's true? What's the point besides a sense of emotional comfort and why don't you value the truth above all else?

 

(Also) Because we all have to believe something - we have no way of checking on reality itself. You can't really positively know what the reality of the universe is? Is the universe just a complete illusion being fed into your mind?

 

Whether you believe that people are real and deserve respect, or whether you believe its all an illusion its still a belief.

 

 

 

Now some beliefs can be argued as being better than other beliefs.

 

 

 

But its also a belief that... the beliefs which can be argued as being better... are actually intrinsically better

 

They are only actually better on the scale on which "a better argument is valued" which is just a tautology.

 

 

 

No matter which way you have it you believe something. Even if you only believe that not holding beliefs is the best plan.

 

 

 

(Personally I choose my beliefs based on what entertains me the most and does least harm - but then I believe an awful lot of weird and strange things - cows are from mars btw).