Is God real post your thoughts!

[Zierro]

You know what I dislike about religious debate?

 

 

 

We always get into these discussions about evolution and the universe and the big bang theory and all this other stuff. THAT ISN'T THE POINT. I try to prove God is false based on contradictions in the Bible and essentially the retort becomes, Oh, God must be real unless you can prove evolution, which you can't.

 

 

 

The fact that science may or may not be wrong does not mean there is a God.

 

 

 

So the fact the the bible is wrong means there isn't a god...?

[Alg]

You know what I dislike about religious debate?

 

 

 

We always get into these discussions about evolution and the universe and the big bang theory and all this other stuff. THAT ISN'T THE POINT. I try to prove God is false based on contradictions in the Bible and essentially the retort becomes, Oh, God must be real unless you can prove evolution, which you can't.

 

 

 

The fact that science may or may not be wrong does not mean there is a God.

 

 

 

So the fact the the bible is wrong means there isn't a god...?

 

This is exactly what I was saying a few pages back :lol:

[sphinxor86]

Holy texts like the Bible being wrong just discredit the Christian (or respective religion) God(s).

 

 

 

Discrediting a book that claims to talk about God, does not mean that God is not real. You have to search for something more fundamental to discredit.

[Mio]

Personally, I feel God is not real.

 

If there was somebody with that much power, Why are there Wars, People living on the streets, Natural Disasters, Senless Killings and people Dying of lack of materials, Food and water In Africa?

[Zierro]

Personally, I feel God is not real.

 

If there was somebody with that much power, Why are there Wars, People living on the streets, Natural Disasters, Senless Killings and people Dying of lack of materials, Food and water In Africa?

 

 

 

I think negativity is necessary for positivity to exist.

[Mio]

Personally, I feel God is not real.

 

If there was somebody with that much power, Why are there Wars, People living on the streets, Natural Disasters, Senless Killings and people Dying of lack of materials, Food and water In Africa?

 

 

 

I think negativity is necessary for positivity to exist.

 

 

 

Wow, I've never thought of that. Thanks.

[Zierro]

Well, yes. The only proof that there is a God is the Bible. You might say, if there is no God why are we here? But that isn't the point. The fact is that the Bible is the only proof of a (christian) God, and ti is contradictory and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

 

 

 

As someone who believes in a god, I don't think it is proof. It's just a collection of humans' interpretations of god thousands of years ago. I think it's completely possible to have your own interpretation of a designer without having to follow the interpretations that have already been made. Not to mention, Christianity isn't the only religion that believes in a god.

[forestfrolic]

First off I was raised as a Christian Presbyterian, and I was active in church. I was even seriously considering becoming a Minister.

 

 

 

Now I do not believe in a God anymore. I am atheist. I do ponder a God's existence a lot though, and I scrutinize my own beliefs, yet I am not agnostic, I am atheist. One thing I've been thinking about lately is.. Say I decide that yeah, there must be a God, a higher power, something.. how would I even choose a religion. What makes Christianity better than Hellenistic religion? Besides the fact that the modern monotheistic religions have tons in common, and are basically the same.

 

 

 

Most religious people never stop to think that the only reason they believe in their faith (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) is because they were brought up to believe in it by their parents. If I was born in the Middle East, I would have been raised on a different religion than if I had been born in America.

[sphinxor86]

Also, not only do other people believe in other gods, but gods have also been created and destroyed:

 

 

 

Aztec, Maya, Olmec, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Greek, Ancient Roman, hell any ancient religion not still in existence...

 

 

 

as for created:

 

Mormonism, scientology, raelian, some omni-religion is asia it has as weird name that I can't remember and the symbol is an eye. I'm sure there are others. These are all relatively modern religions.

 

 

 

The oldest one is Hinduism, and they have *millions* of gods.

[Zierro]

That's a good point, but do you really think you wouldve come to the conclusion of a God if you hadn't been lead to believe it by your parents/elders or if it wasn't such a widely accepted idea?

 

 

 

Probably not. Of course you need exposure to the ideas of others in order to formulate your own ideas. I try to take a bit from everyone's beliefs and use whatever I think makes the most sense and get rid of whatever doesn't. I don't think there's a person in the world with the same religious point of view as me, and I think that's a great thing. If it weren't for theists, atheists, agnostics, etc. I wouldn't believe what I believe today because the collection of their beliefs shaped my beliefs. My beliefs aren't set in stone. Whenever something new which I think is better comes up, I'll gladly accept that idea to replace the older ones.

[sphinxor86]

That's a good point, but do you really think you wouldve come to the conclusion of a God if you hadn't been lead to believe it by your parents/elders or if it wasn't such a widely accepted idea?

 

 

 

Probably not. Of course you need exposure to the ideas of others in order to formulate your own ideas. I try to take a bit from everyone's beliefs and use whatever I think makes the most sense and get rid of whatever doesn't. I don't think there's a person in the world with the same religious point of view as me, and I think that's a great thing. If it weren't for theists, atheists, agnostics, etc. I wouldn't believe what I believe today because the collection of their beliefs shaped my beliefs. My beliefs aren't set in stone. Whenever something new which I think is better comes up, I'll gladly accept that idea to replace the older ones.

 

 

 

That's quite a nice way to look at it. :)

 

 

 

I was raised Roman Catholic, and completely reject the dogma and doctrine. The more religions and religious people I meet, the more flaws *I* see, and the more vehemently I feel atheist. Having said that if conclusive irrefutable evidence were to show up proving God, I'd have no choice but to believe...

[mmmcannibalism]

It is more impressive for a God to design the laws of nature, than to create nature itself.

 

 

 

Nice

 

 

 

Well, yes. The only proof that there is a God is the Bible.

 

 

 

or the quaran or the vedas or the torrah or the gospel of the flying spaghetti monster or the book of mormon or the buddas teachings or the bajillion ways god could exist in a way unlike what the bible says.

[speedofsound]

The existance of a God is a point we could sit here and argue forever, just look at how huge this thread is, ultimatly it's trivial. It doesn't matter if there is a God or isn't because the necessity for one is there. Some people need something to believe in, they need to know there is something larger than themselves looking out for them, or else they may feel alone in this world. There are also people who don't need that, athiests. And that's fine.

 

Everyone is just doing what they need to get through this life, if people need God, let them have it, if they don't, let them not.

[gauper_kid]

The existance of a God is a point we could sit here and argue forever, just look at how huge this thread is, ultimatly it's trivial. It doesn't matter if there is a God or isn't because the necessity for one is there. Some people need something to believe in, they need to know there is something larger than themselves looking out for them, or else they may feel alone in this world. There are also people who don't need that, athiests. And that's fine.

 

Everyone is just doing what they need to get through this life, if people need God, let them have it, if they don't, let them not.

 

Well put. Seriously, you guys, this is never going to get anywhere. No one is going to change anyone's beliefs, you're all just trying to prove something for which no proof exists.

[Alg]

The existance of a God is a point we could sit here and argue forever, just look at how huge this thread is, ultimatly it's trivial. It doesn't matter if there is a God or isn't because the necessity for one is there. Some people need something to believe in, they need to know there is something larger than themselves looking out for them, or else they may feel alone in this world. There are also people who don't need that, athiests. And that's fine.

 

Everyone is just doing what they need to get through this life, if people need God, let them have it, if they don't, let them not.

 

Well put. Seriously, you guys, this is never going to get anywhere. No one is going to change anyone's beliefs, you're all just trying to prove something for which no proof exists.

 

That's exactly what makes it interesting though, I think.

[sphinxor86]

 

That's exactly what makes it interesting though, I think.

 

 

 

Precisely, I think we all know that none of us will change our opinions, but its the debate that's the point, not the result. We gain a better understanding of the counter-side.

[meol]

The existance of a God is a point we could sit here and argue forever, just look at how huge this thread is, ultimatly it's trivial. It doesn't matter if there is a God or isn't because the necessity for one is there. Some people need something to believe in, they need to know there is something larger than themselves looking out for them, or else they may feel alone in this world. There are also people who don't need that, athiests. And that's fine.

 

Everyone is just doing what they need to get through this life, if people need God, let them have it, if they don't, let them not.

 

When people start being delusional because they can't otherwise find stability in society, we don't let them build organizations and give them tax breaks, we get them assistance and mental help. There must be more to religion; otherwise we should be trying to get rid of it and help people out of it.

[Nenga]

The existance of a God is a point we could sit here and argue forever, just look at how huge this thread is, ultimatly it's trivial. It doesn't matter if there is a God or isn't because the necessity for one is there. Some people need something to believe in, they need to know there is something larger than themselves looking out for them, or else they may feel alone in this world. There are also people who don't need that, athiests. And that's fine.

 

Everyone is just doing what they need to get through this life, if people need God, let them have it, if they don't, let them not.

 

When people start being delusional because they can't otherwise find stability in society, we don't let them build organizations and give them tax breaks, we get them assistance and mental help. There must be more to religion; otherwise we should be trying to get rid of it and help people out of religion.

Religion has been around forever, before we got people help, no one questions it.

[warri0r45]

I think the biggest flaw in most "Intelligent" Design arguments is time. If there is someone pulling the strings, guiding evolution to ultimately reach us.... why take 4.5 billion years to do it?!! It could be done so much faster.

 

 

 

If we were made to be perfect right from the start then that leaves no room for progress. I think the concept of progress is a great thing. Take games for example. You start on level 1. They wouldn't nearly as fun if you were to start on level 99.

 

 

 

That was too cheesy of an example... Allow me to expand.

 

 

 

The existence of progress allows us to have a sense of achievement and allows us to be able to say, "Look how far we've come." We were pretty much nothing more than germs at one point, and we've evolved and evolved into something much more complex and advanced. For all we know, we still might be evolving. I find that exciting. I don't like the idea that "here" and what we have right know is the best - I like the idea that things always have room for improvement. I definitely wouldn't want to be born as an elderly man with a ton of experience and knowledge. I'd rather have the ability to start off fresh and explore new things and gain knowledge on my own instead of having it customary for me.

 

 

 

Except when it comes to evolution, we didn't achieve anything - it was all nature. I don't see how the old man analogy applies to evolution either. Having said that, I do find it a more interesting concept than "poof" and all of a sudden we exist.

 

 

 

As for intelligent design, I think the main flaw along the lines of what sphinxor was saying is that it claims a supreme intelligence capable of creating life itself made a lot of rookie mistakes along the way. That makes no sense.

[Zierro]

Except when it comes to evolution, we didn't achieve anything - it was all nature. I don't see how the old man analogy applies to evolution either. Having said that, I do find it a more interesting concept than "poof" and all of a sudden we exist.

 

 

 

Well, technically any sense of achievement or progress can be classified as a delusion because our actions are all based off of the chemicals in our brain and the stimuli we are exposed to, not really *us*.

 

 

 

As for intelligent design, I think the main flaw along the lines of what sphinxor was saying is that it claims a supreme intelligence capable of creating life itself made a lot of rookie mistakes along the way. That makes no sense.

 

 

 

That is to assume he didn't do it on purpose.

 

 

 

When people start being delusional because they can't otherwise find stability in society, we don't let them build organizations and give them tax breaks, we get them assistance and mental help. There must be more to religion; otherwise we should be trying to get rid of it and help people out of it.

 

 

 

I've come to the point where I'm sick of using this word but I think this really calls for one. That's a really bad strawman. Giving a patient mental help is along the same lines as arguing to a theist that god doesn't exist...? I like criticizing beliefs just as much as the next guy but that's a bit over the top, don't you think?

[warri0r45]

Except when it comes to evolution, we didn't achieve anything - it was all nature. I don't see how the old man analogy applies to evolution either. Having said that, I do find it a more interesting concept than "poof" and all of a sudden we exist.

 

 

 

1) Well, technically any sense of achievement or progress can be classified as a delusion because our actions are all based off of the chemicals in our brain and the stimuli we are exposed to, not really *us*.

 

 

 

As for intelligent design, I think the main flaw along the lines of what sphinxor was saying is that it claims a supreme intelligence capable of creating life itself made a lot of rookie mistakes along the way. That makes no sense.

 

 

 

2) That is to assume he didn't do it on purpose.

 

 

 

1) That's not a delusion. Delusion is belief in something despite significant contradictory evidence. But that's really beside the point I was making. I don't understand how you could possibly feel that you have achieved anything by simply being more evolved than a bacterium - you didn't do anything, nor did you have any say in the matter.

 

 

 

2) So you think there's a reason for the nonsensical things we find in biology that can be explained by an intelligence capable of creating life itself? A basic understanding of biology would suggest otherwise. It doesn't make any sense to make the recurrent laryngeal nerve loop around the aorta, but this can be explained by our common ancestry with fish in which the nerve took a more direct root from the brain stem to the larynx (or the analogous structure in fish). There are plenty of other examples like this.

 

 

 

Edit: Here's a book reference for the recurrent laryngeal nerve if you or anyone else wants a little extra reading.

[Zierro]

That's not a delusion. Delusion is belief in something despite significant contradictory evidence. But that's really beside the point I was making. I don't understand how you could possibly feel that you have achieved anything by simply being more evolved than a bacterium - you didn't do anything, nor did you have any say in the matter.

 

 

 

I'm just saying if perfection is standard when it comes to creationism (which means to skip evolution and go straight to the present [which doesn't make sense anyways because that is ignoring the possibilities of the future] and also means to skip the growth of knowledge) then that would make less sense than having the existence of progress. The self-achievement thing was mainly concerning other situations dealing with progress, not necessarily about evolution specifically. But since you brought up semantics, I decided to play along.

 

 

 

Which brings me to my second point: it is a delusion. The fact is, you didn't choose to make that post. The chemicals in your brain and the stimuli that they were exposed to were what caused you to do it. Just a simple understanding of biology suggests that. So why do we feel self-satisfaction when we come up with a piece of music or poetry which wouldn't exist if it weren't for us being inspired and having the brain chemistry to do so? Because it makes us feel good.

 

 

 

So you think there's a reason for the nonsensical things we find in biology that can be explained by an intelligence capable of creating life itself? A basic understanding of biology would suggest otherwise. It doesn't make any sense to make the recurrent laryngeal nerve loop around the aorta, but this can be explained by our common ancestry with fish in which the nerve took a more direct root from the brain stem to the larynx (or the analogous structure in fish). There are plenty of other examples like this.

 

 

 

I don't particularly think so. I guess you can call me agnostic when it comes to this - I was saying you can't make assumptions and try to rationalize things on the level of a being that is higher than you. It's the same as assuming there is a purpose to them. It's a leap of faith.

[warri0r45]

That's not a delusion. Delusion is belief in something despite significant contradictory evidence. But that's really beside the point I was making. I don't understand how you could possibly feel that you have achieved anything by simply being more evolved than a bacterium - you didn't do anything, nor did you have any say in the matter.

 

 

 

I'm just saying if perfection is standard when it comes to creationism (which means to skip evolution and go straight to the present [which doesn't make sense anyways because that is ignoring the possibilities of the future] and also means to skip the growth of knowledge) then that would make less sense than having the existence of progress. The self-achievement thing was mainly concerning other situations dealing with progress, not necessarily about evolution specifically. But since you brought up semantics, I decided to play along.

 

 

 

Which brings me to my second point: it is a delusion. The fact is, you didn't choose to make that post. The chemicals in your brain and the stimuli that they were exposed to were what caused you to do it. Just a simple understanding of biology suggests that. So why do we feel self-satisfaction when we come up with a piece of music or poetry which wouldn't exist if it weren't for us being inspired and having the brain chemistry to do so? Because it makes us feel good.

 

 

 

Sorry, I took your first post to mean that you find a sense of achievement from being more evolved than other organisms. Why bother playing along if you could set me straight straight away?

 

 

 

As for the second point, I did choose to make that post (and this one). Through whatever means, I chose it. It's perfectly reasonable to feel a sense of achievement when we create music or something like that, because it's something we did.

 

 

 

These kind of debates certainly have a way of generating a lot of tangents..

 

 

 

So you think there's a reason for the nonsensical things we find in biology that can be explained by an intelligence capable of creating life itself? A basic understanding of biology would suggest otherwise. It doesn't make any sense to make the recurrent laryngeal nerve loop around the aorta, but this can be explained by our common ancestry with fish in which the nerve took a more direct root from the brain stem to the larynx (or the analogous structure in fish). There are plenty of other examples like this.

 

 

 

I don't particular think so. I guess you can call me agnostic when it comes to this - I was saying you can't make assumptions and try to rationalize things on the level of a being that is higher than you. It's the same as assuming there is a purpose to them. It's a leap of faith.

 

 

 

No, saying there's a supernatural being that had a reason to make these nonsensical things is a leap of faith (and a cop-out). Using our knowledge of biology to deduce that a particular structure is nonsensical requires no faith (just to avoid the argument we had before, by faith I mean belief without evidence).

 

 

 

All I'm saying is that based on our knowledge of biology, it makes no sense to believe that a deity created life with these mistakes that anyone with a basic knowledge of biology could pick out. Here I am pointing out how life could be better designed, and supposedly a supreme being made it that way? That's the argument intelligent design offers, and it makes no sense.

[sphinxor86]

Well was God high when he designed humans to hiccup? And gave them appendices?

 

 

 

Humans are not some supremely evolved creatures, they are actually quite pathetic creatures in the great scheme of things. We have no innate defence/attack or escape abilities, no really hard skin/hide, no posionous fangs, super-strength, wings to fly away from danger, super-vision, super-smell, super hearing, super-speed. Hell, human offspring take around a year to even walk, most Savannah animals take a few minutes!

 

 

 

The only advantage that humans have is prediction often (and originally) from experience. Now I say prediction and not intelligence, because one precedes the other. Humans are masters at spotting patterns, and deducing the next most likely outcome. If there was a particular dry valley that flooded with fresh water 17 days after the equinox one year and then 19 days the next year, most people would place a very good bet that the same would happen *around* 18 days after the next equinox. No other creature has this predictive or forward planning ability. Once we start noticing these patterns, we can learn from them and plan for them. Slowly building intelligence.

[Zierro]

No, saying there's a supernatural being that had a reason to make these nonsensical things is a leap of faith (and a cop-out). Using our knowledge of biology to deduce that a particular structure is nonsensical requires no faith (just to avoid the argument we had before, by faith I mean belief without evidence).

 

 

 

Yes, you can call it nonsensical, but I don't think you can exactly make the call of whether it was an accident or not.

 

 

 

Of course you're going to see this as a cop out, but I really don't think we can accurately depict our designer's rationalizations since they would obviously transcend our own. You wouldn't know what god would do or why unless you were in his shoes. And who knows? Maybe god is not good. Maybe he just wants us to suffer. That is something that's impossible for a human to know, which is why I'm agnostic when it comes to understanding him (but theist when it comes to believing him).

 

 

 

That's the problem I have with anti-creationist arguments. It's impossible for us to understand god's intentions even if he did exist.