Dark_Tigra Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 lmao tigra, you are the biggest idiot to ever walk the face of this planet :D christ is gods son. christ died for us...christ was part man, part god. THATS why... haha, and there is no 'fair' in life. there is never 'fair' at all. is living in a LDC with barely any food or water, while the USA has all of that plus more, 'FAIR'? HELL NO! and we really dont care either, because its their choice to live there. so your wrong, once again. not all christians are born-again, they are the ones that go around knocking on doors i believe, and passing out flyers and stuff. the only ones that judge a certain group of people by the ones that are the weirdest\annoying\obsessive people...are close minded [puncture]s that are wasting the oxygen on this planet that could be used for someone else nicer and that has more respect for others. we wont be cured of anything if we join christianity, where the hell did you get that idea? listen, i apologize if 30 generations of inbreeding has affected you and your family, but please, try and use valid facts so i dont waste my time arguing with a neanderthol. erm, we dont worship any prophets at all...statues and stained glass windows are just placed there for reverence, we arent worshipping them at all. if you call jesus christ a prophet, well, yeah we do, because i believe that he is part human and part god. as a christian, i DO believe that, it wasnt forced on me at all. looks like i just shot down your point, i said your wrong, and proved your factual information completely false. if that isnt fair, well, im sorry :( go cry in a corner. Uh-oh, we've upset the whiney Christian crowd. Everyone hide. I like how you enjoy to throw around completely stupid insults such as my family is "inbred" and I'm a "neanderthol" and an "idiot" and whatever else you spewed from your ignorant mouth. First off; Prove to me Christ is part man, part God. Prove he wasn't some babbling idiot that ran around saying he was the Messiah and he was God's son. Guess what? People do that today, and people shrug them off as "insane". What's to say Jesus wasn't some babbling crazy person? What, mental illness didn't exsist back then? Noone chooses to live without food and water. Are you an idiot? "God" puts them on the Earth where ever he see's fit, apparently. How is it possible that he could put his people somewhere where their life expectancy is 18 years old, they have no food, water, anything, they know NOTHING of him, yet their expected to worship him or go to Hell? Whatever, your religion makes no goddamn sense. Your religious leaders, and even the followers claim that you'll be "cured" of Satan's grasp, essentially, if you join them. Guess what? I'm not a Christian, and I'm sure as hell not in Satan's grasp. It's not like I'm running around murdering children and [bleep]ing puppies off the concrete all while laughing evily. I live just like you do. I don't need some babbling idiots to tell me what I can and can't do out of some book. I said certian branches of Christians worship false prophets. Evengelics worship, in a sense, Benny Hinn and Peter Poppoff. They go to their shows and praise them, SOMETIMES before even praising Jesus. Don't get me wrong, they still thank Jesus, but come on...A guy touches you and you're healed of cancer? Whatever...What they're doing is dangerous because people believe it. There was a little girl at one of the shows and he (Benny Hinn I believe) claimed the girl was cured, so she never went on with treatment, and she DIED of cancer. Yaaaaaaaay for Jesus! Praise the Lord! :roll: And you can't even deny that people worship the Pope...If you do, that's just hilarious. Finally, you didn't shoot down any of my points, but thanks for feeling over confindent in yourself. I had a laugh. And I won't be crying anytime soon, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 is living in a LDC with barely any food or water, while the USA has all of that plus more, 'FAIR'? HELL NO! and we really dont care either, because its their choice to live there. so your wrong, once again.I hope you're not expecting anyone to take you seriously after that little comment. For the record, every time you consume meat from an animal which is high on the domestic foodchain people will die because of the waste of proteins which is caused by this ineffective way of creating food. Maybe you should care. Another interesting observation is that gluttony is a deadly sin (I think. Don't quote me on that), so 95% of the western world will do me company in hell. After all, I did eat that bag of chips and that bar of chocolate yesterday, and if that's not gluttony I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Wow, there's so much to respond to here :P I'm not going to cover all I want to, because it would take me all night, so it'll be a random collection of stuff. First of all - Sidewinder - cut the insults. Second of all - Dark Tigra- cut the insults. So, with the whole "what about the people that don't hear about God?".... I would point you to Romans 1:20 (and it *is* logical to use scripture as an argument, since you're asking what *our* "religion" says about the matter. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ("they" referring to all men, as shown in earlier verses) And dark tigra said something about how we'd call babbling idiots 'insane', and you wanted proof that Jesus wasn't one of those? Well, look at the following it generated. People back then weren't stupid, you know. If he really was insane, people wouldn't follow Him, just like they wouldn't today. Just like we can read what he said, in the gospels, and see that he wasn't insane. He was very level-headed and logical. But of course, if you read, looked into the matter, you'd know that. And for Christianity being a cult - dark tigra, you obviously missed my post on application vs. principle. Read it again, and then prove that Christianity is a cult without looking into the principle yourself. Anyways, I'd love to go way more indepth and talk about more, but I'm just going to hit the submit button.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 People back then weren't stupid, you know. If he really was insane, people wouldn't follow Him, just like they wouldn't today. Just like we can read what he said, in the gospels, and see that he wasn't insane. He was very level-headed and logical. But of course, if you read, looked into the matter, you'd know that. Back then people couldn't even read, 99% of them were farmers who never had any education. They spent all of their time getting taxed by greedy kings. The people were desperate for a new leader just like any starving and desperate people are (latest major example, Hitler, with the german people on the edge of poverty and starvation). If Jesus was reborn in the U.S., he could even be prosecuted because of blasphemy. If he was reborn into a poor country, the people would be probably far more tolerable and start spreading the word of him because they live in worse conditions and are grateful for every small thing. The thing is, there were no 'free' nations back then at all, every single country consisted of a small elite of a few hundred and a poor majority of hundreds of thousands, millions. Education, knowledge, languages, were limited to that elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesselt Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 So, with the whole "what about the people that don't hear about God?".... I would point you to Romans 1:20 (and it *is* logical to use scripture as an argument, since you're asking what *our* "religion" says about the matter. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ("they" referring to all men, as shown in earlier verses) so.... even though they've never heard of the guy... they are still going to hell? What ever happened to god being understanding. Although I should just trust you... You clearly seem to be able to judge people to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipalonias Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Sigh. God lets evil into the world, therefore he must be evil himself, unless he is not an omnipotent all-good god. Hell was devised to control people and to try and make them good. Ultimately it doesn't exist and you will die and cease to exist when you die. Why people can't handle this and insist on lying to themselves is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 So, with the whole "what about the people that don't hear about God?".... I would point you to Romans 1:20 (and it *is* logical to use scripture as an argument, since you're asking what *our* "religion" says about the matter. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ("they" referring to all men, as shown in earlier verses) so.... even though they've never heard of the guy... they are still going to hell? What ever happened to god being understanding. Although I should just trust you... You clearly seem to be able to judge people to hell. I didn't say anything, I just quoted a verse that says that all people have been revealed God's presence through nature, so that they can't say that God hasn't been revealed to them. I didn't say anything about me being able to judge others. Stop putting words in my mouth to support your argument and simultaneously insult me. Your sarcasm aside, I think this verse proves a point (within context) quite well, although you seemed to miss the whole thing. Did you even read the verse? Back then people couldn't even read, 99% of them were farmers who never had any education. They spent all of their time getting taxed by greedy kings. The people were desperate for a new leader just like any starving and desperate people are (latest major example, Hitler, with the german people on the edge of poverty and starvation). If Jesus was reborn in the U.S., he could even be prosecuted because of blasphemy. If he was reborn into a poor country, the people would be probably far more tolerable and start spreading the word of him because they live in worse conditions and are grateful for every small thing. The thing is, there were no 'free' nations back then at all, every single country consisted of a small elite of a few hundred and a poor majority of hundreds of thousands, millions. Education, knowledge, languages, were limited to that elite. There were also people back then that were laughed at, scoffed at, persecuted, and put to death, called insane, etc. I'll admit, Jesus was one of them. Ironically, He's also the only one that generated a permanent following of more than 0. Coincidence? I'll leave that question up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 Sigh. God lets evil into the world, therefore he must be evil himself, unless he is not an omnipotent all-good god. Hell was devised to control people and to try and make them good. Ultimately it doesn't exist and you will die and cease to exist when you die. Why people can't handle this and insist on lying to themselves is beyond me. In a Christian worldview, evil is simply a perversion of good, not a substance in and of itself. So it would be more like "God creates good things, man uses good things for his own glory instead of God's, thereby sinning. Because God is omnipotent and omni-benevolent, he allows man free will when it comes to the way he uses good things. If man makes the wrong choice, God is good enough to offer a way out of the punishment man brings on himself." @rick, one of dictionary.com's definitions of "make" includes "to bring about." It wouldn't make sense if the writer meant "to force" in this case, because the Bible teaches that becoming a Christian is a personal decision, so it can't be forced. However, a Christian could cause people to become disciples through witnessing, teaching, correcting, or simply loving people. In other words, salvation can't be forced, but Christians can influence people to repent in non-violent ways. As for the whole "hell" topic, C. S. Lewis summed up the purpose of Hell nicely when he wrote "There are only two types of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'Thy will be done.'" People choose to go to Hell, they aren't sent there. They go because they refuse to follow God's will and go to heaven. Christian readers - Did you ever stop and think that maybe people don't WANT to be saved? That they'd rather use their freedom to choose and think with their own mind? I know that's what I'd rather do. If I have to "burn in eternal flames" for not choosing Christ, I'd take it GLADLY if I knew that I used my life the way *I* wanted to, not the way some cult told me to. Point and case. Now, there is also a reason why hell is a place of torment. The Bible teaches that God is the only source of happiness. As Augustine wrote in his Confessions, "Our soul is restless until it rests in You." Since Hell is a place where no one submits to God's will or seeks the joy that comes from Him, it is a place of eternal restlessness, which I don't imagine would be fun. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatsilverwyrm Posted May 28, 2005 Share Posted May 28, 2005 I like Futurama's view of God and why he doesn't do anything... If you haven't seen the episode... Bender accidently gets fired out of the torpedo tube of the S.S. Planet Express, and since they're already going topspeed when they fire him, they can't catch up with him and he's doomed to float endlessly through space.. An asteroid containing a civilization becomes attached to him, and he basically becomes the god of that civilization. He ends up destroying the civilization through his action and inaction.. Then he meets up with a nebula that used to be god, but a giant thinkdroid or something along those lines collided with it.. Bender had a long conversation with God and this is the jist of what god said: "If you do too much, people will rely on you too much. If you do nothing, they'll stop beleiving in you entirely. You have to use a light touch. If you do things right, people won't know you've done anything at all." Which then inspires Bender to do good, because he thinks if he doesn't do good, god won't do good, and therefore nobody will. And then it cuts back to god saying "If you do things right, people won't know you've done anything at all..." Sorry, I know that was off-topic-ish, but, meh.. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaninch Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 Bender had a long conversation with God and this is the jist of what god said: "If you do too much, people will rely on you too much. If you do nothing, they'll stop beleiving in you entirely. You have to use a light touch. If you do things right, people won't know you've done anything at all." Yeah, I found that to be a particularily well done episode and that quote was just fantastic. I remember thinking about it for a few minutes afterward, and finding it to be dead on. Yeah... I really liked that episode :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Tigra Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I think BlueLancer said just about everything I would have said about people "back then" being gullible, lol. It's like this - You know when the first time you hear one of those "trick" jokes, say, the one where someone says "If your hand is bigger than your face, you have Cancer." trick, the person then puts their hand in front of their face, and the other person hits their hand so it hits them in the nose. Remember those? It's kind of like that. After it's done to you, you know about it and it's no longer effective on you.. If you don't get that, this is what I'm trying to say - Back then, people needed something better in their lives, they needed saving for the reasons BlueLancer stated. Jesus was a Jew and knew of the coming of a Messiah, and he just figured he'd ramble on saying he was infact the Messiah, because noone would know any better. It would give his people something "good", and he'd be rendered, eternally a "Messiah" if he pulled it off. He did pull it off apparently, but now adays if anyone says that, they'd be called insane. Why? Because it's been done before. Is it not possible, at all, that Jesus was infact just another False prophet and a liar? I see no reason why it isn't. I believe I read that Jesus died on the cross with a few other guys on crosses aswell, and they turned to Jesus and said "If you are the Messiah, why does God not help us?" or something along those lines...I'm thinking that "Oh...Uhh...God umm...Meant it to be like this! Yea!" wouldn't have cut it for me. The guy who started the whole Mormon religion, Joseph Smith, claimed God talked to him and a lot of people believed him, sprouting the Mormon religion. He made a lot of claims about all the current church's being wrong and blah blah, anyone who's researched it will know what I mean, and it's obvious to us now, today, that he was a complete liar because of certain things that didn't fit together..But people didn't know any better than to realize they didn't fit, if he said "Oh, actually God changed his mind and said something else!" they'd have to believe him because of their faith, everyone seemingly had faith then, but now we have more of a choice. Need I even bring up the thousands of people who follow modern cult leaders because of what they say is "true"? That's just my examples of how someone could be a complete liar, but other's will follow them because they're gullible. By the way, Christians killed Joseph Smith for his beliefs. Real understanding of your people to do that. Someone else's beliefs coinflict with yours...So you kill them. It's hardly different than you guys telling people they'll go to Hell for not following you. I'm probably done here. Christians are so close-minded from their up-bringing's that they won't even CONSIDER anything else. All I ask is you not call me "close minded" for NOT believing. Believe me, I've tried, and there is no reason to. God helps noone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 By the way, Christians killed Joseph Smith for his beliefs. Real understanding of your people to do that. Someone else's beliefs coinflict with yours...So you kill them. It's hardly different than you guys telling people they'll go to Hell for not following you. Yet again, another bad application of a good principle. When are you people going to get it in your heads that Christians do not necessarily represent Christianity? This says absolutely *nothing* to what Christianity is about - so don't judge it against other peoples actions, go to the source, the Bible. And if you weren't close-minded like you said, you'd read it for yourself and consider what it says, would you not? And before more people talk about Jesus being insane, get some Biblical knowledge - if you talk about what Jesus said, and did, and how there's no proof for Him actually being the messiah, without actually looking at it for yourself, then that's just as ignorant and close-minded as the Christians you call as such. (by the way, the quote you gave in your last post looked very unconfident, and it was incorrect at that) He systematically, logically, *sanely*, proved to all around Him that He was in fact, the Messiah. I've studied it in depth, I've looked at all antithesises (sp), I'm probably the most critically analytical person I know, and there's absolutely *nothing* in the Bible that tells me Jesus was/is insane. I've found quite a few more possible descrepencies that would hold more water than this. And of course, you have the miracles. Now I know this will start a whole 'nother argument - but we're all assuming all of this actually happened, or it appears that we have been. How can you factor those into the insanity equation? It just doesn't add up. Nothing adds up to Jesus being insane. You've given absolutely no proof at all. So far it's just been "oh, he could've been insane, like, it's possible right?" Yes, it's possible that every political leader on this planet is a diabolical android ready to destroy the human race at any moment's notice, but without proof, it's complete nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 The people were desperate for a new leader just like any starving and desperate people are (latest major example, Hitler, with the german people on the edge of poverty and starvation). 'Godwin's Law' states that-- As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. Eric Raymond states that-- There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Thanks everyone (not just BlueLancer, by the way) for ruining the thread. Tigra, maybe reading other people's posts will help you actually make this a useful discussion, instead of just mindlessly trying to flame everyone who's Christian (which happens to include me). Your generalisation of 'Christianity' as 'pope-worshipping, Jesus-revering idiotic evangelists' is appalling and wrong, as people have told you before in this thread. Reading anything that contradicts you with valid arguments seems to be a hard job for you, I guess. As to not make this post complete spam, I already gave my view on the original topic (yes, far far back by now, as flaming Christians is surely more interesting than staying on topic) which is that the judge is blatantly wrong, about which, in case you didn't notice (fairly likely I'd say), about 90% of all the alleged Christians on this thread have agreed. Insane and all the other mods: thanks for trying hard to keep this thread civil. I guess some people are just a bit too die-hard about their own opinions to make this a reasonable discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norpographic-X Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I don't feel like going back and finding the exact quotes so here is 1 point that I want to make an opinion on. Someone said that Jesus could've been mentally unstable person that preached to people who were looking to for a saviour to help them from the persecution of their rulers. The counter-point being that Jesus is one of only a few to attract a large following, that kept the faith alive after his death. Now, personally, what is to say Jesus was just another example of say, Benny Hinn and Peter Poppoff? They managed to pervay the beliefs of Christians and perform healing (aka, Jesus) upon people who then apparently "healed". There is absolutley nothing to say that Jesus was no different, in that he created a belief in his followers that was so strong, that he effectively gave them the "belief" that they were healed. I'm not going to say that Jesus was a fraud, or that he was truly the Son of God, there is no hard-proof to actually prove either of those to be true, but I just offered a thought into this topic. Apart from this, I have many friends who are Christian, they goto church, read their bible, heck, one of my friends took an oath of chastity, but never when I have encountered them or their families have any of them pushed the belief of Christianity upon me. I myself am an Atheist, I have no beliefs, and they know that, and even when I sometimes went with my friend to church, no-one there preached to me the followings of the Bible and why I should believe in Jesus. To me personally, I feel that people in this thread are labelling a sterotype down upon Christians, it simply is not true. Yes, there are subsections of the Christian following that are radical in their beliefs, and there are some sections that promote how much better they are because of god, but these sections are not the whole Christian faith. I have encountered many people, whom when I talked to, asked me about my faith, and when I replied (remember, I am Atheist), they started talking about how they are better through god and how he has helped to empower them. These people are morons, I can say the same thing about this cup of mocha I'm about to drink, as it empowers me through a nice energy boost, and gives my life an edge. About the original topic in question, I have no-doubt that ruling will be overturned. The question of someone's faith and whether or not it should be allowed or not is absurd in today's multicultural society. This case is just another where a Judge's predisposed beliefs (Australian Schappelle Corby anyone?) have ultimately effected the outcome of the case. It is impossible for a Judge to make a decision because someone is part of particular following, it is the principle of modern-day discrimination. In short for people who couldnt be bothered reading everything: - Jesus could possibly be a version of Benny Hinn in a different time, though there is no evidence to support any views on this matter - I know many people who are Christian, and even been to Christian churches and never had Christianity forced to me (I'm Atheist) - Stop stereotyping Christianity, it is only subsections of the faith that are detrimental - On the Original Topic : It should be overturned as a verdict based on personal beliefs is decrimanatory. My rant is over, flame me if you want, I'm not posting anything else in the thread unless necessary. Rsn: ScootenhabenCombat: 82 ::: Skill Total: 1238Current Goals: 71/80 Fletching, 51/50 Construction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 The people were desperate for a new leader just like any starving and desperate people are (latest major example, Hitler, with the german people on the edge of poverty and starvation). 'Godwin's Law' states that-- As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. Eric Raymond states that-- There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Thanks everyone (not just BlueLancer, by the way) for ruining the thread. Tigra, maybe reading other people's posts will help you actually make this a useful discussion, instead of just mindlessly trying to flame everyone who's Christian (which happens to include me). Your generalisation of 'Christianity' as 'pope-worshipping, Jesus-revering idiotic evangelists' is appalling and wrong, as people have told you before in this thread. Reading anything that contradicts you with valid arguments seems to be a hard job for you, I guess. As to not make this post complete spam, I already gave my view on the original topic (yes, far far back by now, as flaming Christians is surely more interesting than staying on topic) which is that the judge is blatantly wrong, about which, in case you didn't notice (fairly likely I'd say), about 90% of all the alleged Christians on this thread have agreed. Insane and all the other mods: thanks for trying hard to keep this thread civil. I guess some people are just a bit too die-hard about their own opinions to make this a reasonable discussion. I didn't even mention 'nazi', no? You're the same kind of people that call people "anti-semite", but if somebody is anti-christian or islam, it's somehow "less severe" and there isn't any fancy word for that even though christians and muslims have been far more severely killed and tortured during history than jews. I possibly couldn't have used any other example because that's the TRUTH. The german people had enormous unemployment, lack of food and supplies, and out of nowhere, this little man is already planning a reign of 1000 years. This has nothing to do with some "Godwins" law (what a controversial name for a discussion about religion by the way), sounds like a preppy kid in a school "Laws of probability say that your 4th sentence will contain a misspelled word therefore you automatically lose an argument no matter what". Get real. Anyways, Tigra, I wouldn't agree with Jesus being a lunatic. There are those people today that just sit at the mall and shout verses from the Bible and walk around in old robes, I don't honestly think even they are lunatics, they're just... 'Special'. If you read the Bible there are more indications that he's actually a person with far more REAL wisdom (the one you can't study from books) that only a few people have had in history like Gandhi, Mohammad etc., heck, even many religions (including islam) recognises Jesus as a prophet of wisdom and love. If Jesus actually performed miracles, that's up to you and your faith. Quite honestly it's impossible along with the statement that Jesus was born out of a virgin. Like Napoleon said: History is a set of lies agreed upon This doesn't mean all written history is a lie, it means that only selected things were allowed to be recorded and even then they were made to look better than they actually did (So if Jesus had a lot of bread and fish and then gave it to poor people, they wrote that "He fed the entire group with just one loaf of bread and one fish) And as I said it's up to you to believe all things said in the Bible, it's your faith. But you'll probably be disappointed in the future if technology and archaeology advance and there will be proof to show otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 The people were desperate for a new leader just like any starving and desperate people are (latest major example, Hitler, with the german people on the edge of poverty and starvation). 'Godwin's Law' states that-- As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. Eric Raymond states that-- There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Thanks everyone (not just BlueLancer, by the way) for ruining the thread. Tigra, maybe reading other people's posts will help you actually make this a useful discussion, instead of just mindlessly trying to flame everyone who's Christian (which happens to include me). Your generalisation of 'Christianity' as 'pope-worshipping, Jesus-revering idiotic evangelists' is appalling and wrong, as people have told you before in this thread. Reading anything that contradicts you with valid arguments seems to be a hard job for you, I guess. As to not make this post complete spam, I already gave my view on the original topic (yes, far far back by now, as flaming Christians is surely more interesting than staying on topic) which is that the judge is blatantly wrong, about which, in case you didn't notice (fairly likely I'd say), about 90% of all the alleged Christians on this thread have agreed. Insane and all the other mods: thanks for trying hard to keep this thread civil. I guess some people are just a bit too die-hard about their own opinions to make this a reasonable discussion. I didn't even mention 'nazi', no? You're the same kind of people that call people "anti-semite", but if somebody is anti-christian or islam, it's somehow "less severe" and there isn't any fancy word for that even though christians and muslims have been far more severely killed and tortured during history than jews. Err, I think you misinterpreted my comment by a long shot. Let me try to clarify my post. It was NOT aimed at you in particular, though I think that mentioning Hitler was a bad idea. The point of my post was that the semi-mindless flaming of people based on religion is stupid (and no, I don't think that was you). This is bad whatever their religion is - wiccans, Christians, Jews and Muslims have equal rights in my opinion, and I really don't understand why you try to depict me as a fanaticist. I've not called anyone 'anti-semite', I've not even given any comments about the contents of your example - I just stated something that would, if anything, simply induce to 'avoid using Hitler as an example for anything, and try to pick something less extreme'. I've always had a lot of respect for your posts, but right now this topic is going nowhere, and you were part of that, which is why I coined Godwin's law. I possibly couldn't have used any other example because that's the TRUTH. The german people had enormous unemployment, lack of food and supplies, and out of nowhere, this little man is already planning a reign of 1000 years. Yes, I agree about 25 million germans (maybe more, maybe less, I really can't be bothered to find statistics - it was just a lot) having a tough time, and I'm not debating your being right. I'm just saying that this topic is now waaaay off the original first post, and has in some posts degraded into rather mindless flaming of eachother based solely on religion. That, and I think you could have used other examples. That's another topic entirely though. This has nothing to do with some "Godwins" law (what a controversial name for a discussion about religion by the way), sounds like a preppy kid in a school "Laws of probability say that your 4th sentence will contain a misspelled word therefore you automatically lose an argument no matter what". Get real. (FWIW, 'Godwin' is (as far as I know) a name, and wasn't at all intended as any kind of pun. Sorry for maybe not being clearer on that. Additionally, this discussion wasn't really intended to become a discussion involving 'religion' as the main topic at all, but a discussion about the verdict of a judge who forbade parents to teach their child wicca) I would invite you to search for the word 'Hitler' and 'nazi' on these boards, and then rethink what you just said. I admit that posting the second quote may have been as inflammatory as the rest of the posts here, and for that I apologize. I stand by Godwin's law though: it's disgusting to see how much of the nice topics that get made on this part of TIF degrade into nothingness. [even more offtopic] Now, most of you don't know me, since I don't actually post here very often. I lurk a lot, though, and the main reason why I don't post very often is because most sensible topics here quickly descend into namecalling and flaming. I'm quite fed up with that happening, so I posted something which was intended to show what I found true for a long time: that good discussions generally don't last long on this board. The fact that this example took a bite out on one of the posters I do respect is a shame, but doesn't do anything about the original intention of my post: ask people to stop flaming and pasting in derogatory comments about other religions, which is forbidden by the forum rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromagus Posted May 29, 2005 Author Share Posted May 29, 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Glad to see I've created a monster. I should have known better than expect a thread about a news article with a religious undertone to become a discussion about that news article rather than about the religious undertone. My Tip.It Times Articles (10 and counting) || The Varrock Library Author Index projectDo you dare to dream? - Part 19 added. || The Hospital (WIP) - New story!Necromagus looks like a viking ... with glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I agree with Hannibal, just stop the *bashing* of religions on this thread. This thread is about judging "non-mainstream" religions like Wiccan (contrary to some beliefs, it in NO way resembles any bloody rituals or anything the like. I've studied Wicca for over 1 year now and I can say it's one of the most friendly religions out there) to "not being teachable". This issue is pointless, it's just like a discussion about "should all people have the same amount of votes". In terms of rights, all people should have equal rights. But people are never intellectually equal, yet the vote of a person who knows nothing about politics has as much weight as one that knows all the pros and cons of a society. There is no way to define "intelligency" just as there is almost no way to define "true" morals for a judge. It's a shame that in a democratic country a judge would prohibit a parent from teaching her child a religion, if it's "non-mainstream". I dare anybody to morally challenge that statement. It's as stable as telling a kid "you aren't allowed to drink orange juice during your lunch break, that would be non-mainstream since all the other kids drink coke and pepsi". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas_O_Jay Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 yeah i have to wonder if the judge was high or if he is seriously anti pagan or something :? it will get overturned very quickly though, im not sure what happens to a judge who makes rulings that disagree with amendments.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 yeah i have to wonder if the judge was high or if he is seriously anti pagan or something :? it will get overturned very quickly though, im not sure what happens to a judge who makes rulings that disagree with amendments.... Define pagan? How can one single religion have the power to falsify the others? Some 'pagan' religions could say christianity is false and it would have as much weight as the christians saying the pagans are infidels. Just because a church has a large amount of followers it doesn't make it's opinions any more "justified". It doesn't matter if 10,000 people are shouting 1+1=3 and 5 people are trying to tell the people 1+1=2, the numbers don't prove anything. Just because 50 million christians claimed the Earth is flat and one man defied them, it doesn't make that one man "false" just because he doesn't resort to mass power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas_O_Jay Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 um? pagan as in worshipping nature (wicca)... paÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷gan n. 1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion. [Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pagus, country, rural district.] i use it by its true definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesselt Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 So, with the whole "what about the people that don't hear about God?".... I would point you to Romans 1:20 (and it *is* logical to use scripture as an argument, since you're asking what *our* "religion" says about the matter. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ("they" referring to all men, as shown in earlier verses) so.... even though they've never heard of the guy... they are still going to hell? What ever happened to god being understanding. Although I should just trust you... You clearly seem to be able to judge people to hell. I didn't say anything, I just quoted a verse that says that all people have been revealed God's presence through nature, so that they can't say that God hasn't been revealed to them. I didn't say anything about me being able to judge others. Stop putting words in my mouth to support your argument and simultaneously insult me.Firstly.... The first part was a question, of which you still have not directly answered me- can you, in your own words, tell me that you THINK (and I wont pull any crap about you judging people) that because no one has ever told them about the christan way, and they may worship some rock or something, they might go to hell? Your sarcasm aside, I think this verse proves a point (within context) quite well, although you seemed to miss the whole thing. Did you even read the verse?no, I flailed around. Dont tell me to cut MY sarcasm and then come in with your own, thats just dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueLancer Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 um? pagan as in worshipping nature (wicca)... paÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷gan n. 1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion. [Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pagus, country, rural district.] i use it by its true definition. For 5 seconds, I thought "maybe I should include 'don't quote the dictionary'. I'll word it better: Define a "false" religion (since a lot of people assign "false" to "pagan" other than it not being a christian, muslim, jew etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shas_O_Jay Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 um? pagan as in worshipping nature (wicca)... paÃÆââ¬Å¡Ãâ÷gan n. 1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion. [Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country-dweller, civilian, from pagus, country, rural district.] i use it by its true definition. For 5 seconds, I thought "maybe I should include 'don't quote the dictionary'. I'll word it better: Define a "false" religion (since a lot of people assign "false" to "pagan" other than it not being a christian, muslim, jew etc. who am i to say what a religion is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runesmithie Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Just an odd tangent, but now can I stop being made fun of for being of the Jedi faith? (Jk, I'm a Christian) I just posted something! ^_^ to the terrorist...er... kirbybeam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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