The Offical TIF American Elections thread

[Ginger_Warrior]

Can't you see though that banning things like abortion is forcing morality on others?

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with abortions before the third trimester, because there is no pain involved before that point. I just don't see why others who feel the way I do on abortion (and there are many) should be told our morals are effectively wrong because others perceive it as murder.

[Utopianflame]

Saruman what link? You havent posted one in the pages that I have read.

[jackattack]

Can't you see though that banning things like abortion is forcing morality on others?

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with abortions before the third trimester, because there is no pain involved before that point. I just don't see why others who feel the way I do on abortion (and there are many) should be told our morals are effectively wrong because others perceive it as murder.

 

 

 

It pretty much is murder. It's a human. It's alive. Someone is ending it's life. I'd think that would fit the definition of murder. You can argue about semantics or whether people should be able to do it but that's what it is.

[Shiny]

Can't you see though that banning things like abortion is forcing morality on others?

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with abortions before the third trimester, because there is no pain involved before that point. I just don't see why others who feel the way I do on abortion (and there are many) should be told our morals are effectively wrong because others perceive it as murder.

 

 

 

It pretty much is murder. It's a human. It's alive. Someone is ending it's life. I'd think that would fit the definition of murder. You can argue about semantics or whether people should be able to do it but that's what it is.

 

 

 

No it isn't. When your supposed to get abortions, your thing inside of you is an embryo (sp?). It is neither female nor male, and hasn't really begun to develop.

[jackattack]

Yes it is. It is alive. And it is human. You don't dispute either of those do you? If it's not human then what is it?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Can't you see though that banning things like abortion is forcing morality on others?

 

 

 

I don't have a problem with abortions before the third trimester, because there is no pain involved before that point. I just don't see why others who feel the way I do on abortion (and there are many) should be told our morals are effectively wrong because others perceive it as murder.

 

 

 

It pretty much is murder. It's a human. It's alive. Someone is ending it's life. I'd think that would fit the definition of murder. You can argue about semantics or whether people should be able to do it but that's what it is.

 

I realise you perceive it as murder. I do not. Hence the actual point in my post, which you totally failed to address by getting on your moral high horse.

[jackattack]

Just because you don't think it's murder doesn't mean it's not. It's human and it's alive. What would killing a living human be called? There is a word for it.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I'm not interested in tackling your own self-righteousness. I'm sure there's plenty of other forums for you to do that on, and the topic of abortion has been done to death already here.

 

 

 

I made a perfectly good point, that everyone bar you seems capable of understanding.

[magekillr]

The same people that are "pro-life" are also the ones that are "anti-tax" and "anti-programs" to help single women and struggling families to raise the child that they're forcing the person to raise. Once the child is born, you don't give a damn what happens to it.

[J a m e s]

Just because you don't think it's murder doesn't mean it's not. It's human and it's alive. What would killing a living human be called? There is a word for it.

 

 

 

Murder: the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

 

 

 

The law of the United States does not consider abortion murder therefore abortion is not murder.

 

 

 

Quit being a pompous [wagon].

[jackattack]

The same people that are "pro-life" are also the ones that are "anti-tax" and "anti-programs" to help single women and struggling families to raise the child that they're forcing the person to raise. Once the child is born, you don't give a damn what happens to it.

 

 

 

How does being for lower taxes mean I don't care about children? I don't want to force anybody to raise any child. Just not let them kill it. anyone can walk in into a fire station, police station, or hospital and just dump any unwanted kid no questions asked. With that I see no reason for killing the baby.

[J a m e s]

The same people that are "pro-life" are also the ones that are "anti-tax" and "anti-programs" to help single women and struggling families to raise the child that they're forcing the person to raise. Once the child is born, you don't give a damn what happens to it.

 

 

 

How does being for lower taxes mean I don't care about children? I don't want to force anybody to raise any child. Just not let them kill it. anyone can walk in into a fire station, police station, or hospital and just dump any unwanted kid no questions asked. With that I see no reason for killing the baby.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree. We need millions and millions of children in foster homes. The State should be forced to take care of kids that people were forced to give birth to. We should spend billions of taxpayer dollars on it as well.

 

 

 

:roll:

 

 

 

Oh, and please stop shoving your flawed vocabulary down everybody's throats. Abortion should be called abortion, not "killing babies" or "murder."

[magekillr]

The same people that are "pro-life" are also the ones that are "anti-tax" and "anti-programs" to help single women and struggling families to raise the child that they're forcing the person to raise. Once the child is born, you don't give a damn what happens to it.

 

 

 

How does being for lower taxes mean I don't care about children? I don't want to force anybody to raise any child. Just not let them kill it. anyone can walk in into a fire station, police station, or hospital and just dump any unwanted kid no questions asked. With that I see no reason for killing the baby.

 

 

 

Where are you getting the money to care for these children, Jack? You want lower taxes, low spending...but won't let women make a choice concerning their bodies. So you're either a.) Forcing young women to carry children that they don't want, and that isn't even a child during the time that she would get the abortion, and then forcing her to raise the child, or b.) Forcing young women to carry the child and then leave them to a hospital to be cared for by foster care where the child doesn't receive the nurturing care that it needs, and effectively costs our nation out of house and home.

 

 

 

I mean, which is it? Raise taxes exponentially to pump into foster care, and centers that help teenage mothers/poor mothers...or force them to have the child and tell them that they're on their own? If it's the latter, then you're exactly what I said: someone that's pro-life that doesn't care what happens to the child once it's born.

[Saru Inc]

Here's what I don't get, how is a baby not life (even in the early stages. I mean, if cells are replicating, then how is that not life? It certainly isn't non existant, or dead.

[magekillr]

Here's what I don't get, how is a baby not life (even in the early stages. I mean, if cells are replicating, then how is that not life? It certainly isn't non existant, or dead.

 

 

 

It is life, just not a human "life", yet.

[Saru Inc]

Then what type of life is it?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Then what type of life is it?

 

Through fear of being quoted on some mad pro-life website as 'evidence', the unborn foetus is a new life. Half of its DNA is different from the mother.

 

 

 

The point is we can argue over semantics all we like, it's not pushing the debate anywhere. The issue to most people who support the choice of abortion is not the issue of life or not, it's the issue of whether any pain is being caused (hence why most stop at the third trimester), and whether it's the lesser of two evils, in other words, the baby thrown into state care would live the shambles of an unappreciated life anyway, so it's arguably a greater evil forcing them to live out that existence, and forcing the mother to undergo the pregnancy against her own will.

 

 

 

I realise some of those children do get adopted, and live happily ever after, but let's put that into some sort of context. Not many do, not anywhere near enough to justify putting all unwanted children into care.

[J a m e s]

Why can't people who are pro-life only because of their religion have their God save the fetus' soul for the next body or something? :-#

[magekillr]

Why can't people who are pro-life only because of their religion have their God save the fetus' soul for the next body or something? :-#

 

 

 

What I don't understand is that if the baby gets a "soul" at conception of the sperm and the egg, God must sure like to kill a lot of them. Many of the eggs that were fertilized don't make it to the uterus and are just spewed out later. So, essentially to the pro-life people that believe life begins at conception, the mother commits involuntary man-slaughter for half of the eggs that were conceived.

[J a m e s]

Why can't people who are pro-life only because of their religion have their God save the fetus' soul for the next body or something? :-#

 

 

 

What I don't understand is that if the baby gets a "soul" at conception of the sperm and the egg, God must sure like to kill a lot of them. Many of the eggs that were fertilized don't make it to the uterus and are just spewed out later. So, essentially to the pro-life people that believe life begins at conception, the mother commits involuntary man-slaughter for half of the eggs that were conceived.

 

 

 

Yep.

 

 

 

"Studies reveal that anywhere from 10-25% of all clinically recognized pregnancies will end in miscarriage. "

 

 

 

Source: http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregna ... riage.html

[ThurinEthir]

We're talking about the same people that support the death penalty, right? :-#

 

(Even though an unborn fetus and a criminal are completely different, isn't murder still murder?)

[Saru Inc]

Not necessarily, I don't agree with Capital Punishment, simply because it's an easy way out.

 

 

 

But, the thing is, is the baby did nothing to deserve that, and can't speak for itself. But I see what you're saying about putting it in cruddy adoption homes. But, mainly pro life people (usually Christians) think that life is sacred.

[magekillr]

Not necessarily, I don't agree with Capital Punishment, simply because it's an easy way out.

 

 

 

But, the thing is, is the baby did nothing to deserve that, and can't speak for itself. But I see what you're saying about putting it in cruddy adoption homes. But, mainly pro life people (usually Christians) think that life is sacred.

 

 

 

You think life is sacred, but like I said, it's not a human life yet. How can it be a human life without nature regularly murdering all those conceived eggs? When does the body "get a soul"?

[Saru Inc]

Well then, in that case Mage, it's all opinion. I think life does start at conception. Now, for me at least, I don't know when a soul is in a body. But, many people think at conception a soul is there.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Well then, in that case Mage, it's all opinion. I think life does start at conception. Now, for me at least, I don't know when a soul is in a body. But, many people think at conception a soul is there.

 

Right, so you're asking me to believe in those who say God destroys thousands of "souls" by misconception unnecessarily?

 

 

 

And then some people have the audacity to say I support baby killing?