The Offical TIF American Elections thread

[Cup Lion]

I pray these four years go by swiftly.

[jackattack]

At least there is some consolation. It looks as if Prop 8 will pass. The abortion one is iffy though. Florida and Arizona passed things like Prop 8 already also. I still feel bad about Allen West. I'm going to be sulking about him for weeks.

[The Dark Lord]

 

 

 

This sums up the election for those of who don't know the results. Obama won 338+ Electorals.

[angryjoe]

Lmao, did anybody see the interview with Gore Vidal on the BBC just then, comedy gold. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[Oy_the_Great]

 

It's 5 AM here, but this moment is just as glorious as the 9/11 moment and all its following tragedies was a horrible one.

 

I certainly hope your English is bad, or did I just hear you say that the murder of thousands of innocent people by those cold blooded, psychotic, murdering bastard fanatics was a glorious moment in history?

 

Nope, it's your English that is bad mate, try reading it again.

 

You know something's wrong when the 3rd language of a Belgian kid is better than the 1st language of an American.

 

 

 

Anyway, I've always found McCain a very respectable republican, of whom I felt was obliged by his party to change some of his more liberal points of view. Now I'm amazed by his profound and respectful speech, and must give him credit for that.

 

I would see Obama do the same, contrary to what some other guy said before. Even if Obama would have lost and demanded a recount, it would be with good reasons, because he was the favourite with a huge lead in the polls.

[The Dark Lord]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

[mistywerty]

Presidential elections? Wha...? They kept that quiet, didn't they?

[Saru Inc]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

 

 

 

You're morally deprived.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, husbands can kill their wives, because they got into a fight with them.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, America will be worse off than most countries.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, Religion will be banned.

 

 

 

All I can say is, if we stay the course, in 50 years, I won't be proud of anything.

 

 

 

The fact is, Obama is an Atheistic morally deprived President Elect.

[megakiller32]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

 

 

 

You're morally deprived.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, husbands can kill their wives, because they got into a fight with them.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, America will be worse off than most countries.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, Religion will be banned.

 

 

 

All I can say is, if we stay the course, in 50 years, I won't be proud of anything.

 

 

 

The fact is, Obama is an Atheistic morally deprived President Elect.

 

 

 

Maybe you should come out of the 14th century and realise practicing religions is peoples choice, not something that should be forcefully shoved onto people and affect how a whole country is governed

[Utopianflame]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

 

 

 

You're morally deprived.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, husbands can kill their wives, because they got into a fight with them.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, America will be worse off than most countries.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, Religion will be banned.

 

 

 

All I can say is, if we stay the course, in 50 years, I won't be proud of anything.

 

 

 

The fact is, Obama is an Atheistic morally deprived President Elect.

 

 

 

 

 

You really do just make nonsense up as you go along dont you?

[dangeresque]

Presidential elections? Wha...? They kept that quiet, didn't they?

 

Erm, no. O_O

[Saru Inc]

[hide=]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

 

 

 

You're morally deprived.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, husbands can kill their wives, because they got into a fight with them.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, America will be worse off than most countries.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, Religion will be banned.

 

 

 

All I can say is, if we stay the course, in 50 years, I won't be proud of anything.

 

 

 

The fact is, Obama is an Atheistic morally deprived President Elect.

 

 

 

 

 

You really do just make nonsense up as you go along dont you?

[/hide]

 

 

 

Yea, I made that up, I doubt it'll be that bad, but it's about setting principles, and having a good moral standard.

 

 

 

And at Megakillr, I realize religion is a choice, but I also realize that some religions set good moral standards, while others don't. And, in my opinion, abortion does not constitute good moral boundaries.

[Utopianflame]

[hide=]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

 

 

 

You're morally deprived.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, husbands can kill their wives, because they got into a fight with them.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, America will be worse off than most countries.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, Religion will be banned.

 

 

 

All I can say is, if we stay the course, in 50 years, I won't be proud of anything.

 

 

 

The fact is, Obama is an Atheistic morally deprived President Elect.

 

 

 

 

 

You really do just make nonsense up as you go along dont you?

[/hide]

 

 

 

Yea, I made that up, I doubt it'll be that bad, but it's about setting principles, and having a good moral standard.

 

 

 

And at Megakillr, I realize religion is a choice, but I also realize that some religions set good moral standards, while others don't. And, in my opinion, abortion does not constitute good moral boundaries.

 

 

 

Let me guess, those with good moral standards are those that share the same standards as you do right, and those that dont are the ones that do not?

[Saru Inc]

Not necessarily, like I believe Capital Punishment is bad. But morally it's right. I don't like it because I believe it's an easy way out. Now, that's just one example.

 

 

 

 

 

Now Utopian: Let me ask you this, do you believe everything you believe in is morally right? Most people do, I do not know anyone who is amoral, in their own eyes, and proud.

[Utopianflame]

Not necessarily, like I believe Capital Punishment is bad. But morally it's right. I don't like it because I believe it's an easy way out. Now, that's just one example.

 

 

 

 

 

Now Utopian: Let me ask you this, do you believe everything you believe in is morally right? Most people do, I do not know anyone who is amoral, in their own eyes, and proud.

 

 

 

 

 

For capital punishment: Killing is morally wrong. You have killed someone, therefore we are going to kill you.

 

 

 

Which of course takes you back to square one.

 

 

 

Morality is defined by society as a whole and is not a personal thing, consequently I do hold some beliefs that are morally wrong. I also know that my personal code of ethics is not free of contradictions. The most fundamental of my beliefs is probably that people are not things, they are not tools to be used as you see fit for your own benefits. I do however eat meat and we treat the animals as things and use them for our benefit with little to no regard for them. By what right do we as a species claim dominion over the rest of the world and all beings in it?

[Saru Inc]

Morality can be defined by society, but also by religion. And it's very hard to change someone's morals. And the last sentence is an Atheistic view, but also, don't Lions eat lesser animals? What rights do they have (from your point of view) to end that lesser animals rights? They most likely could eat vegetables also, but instead they eat the poor innocent limping gazelle who can't keep up with the herd. Here's a fact: (not to be harsh) but 'upper' animals could care less about 'lower' animals, it's food they eat it. In this way, I guess you could say we're gracious, in that we also eat vegetables. But from a religious view, it's ok for us to eat them.

[Utopianflame]

Morality can be defined by society, but also by religion. And it's very hard to change someone's morals. And the last sentence is an Atheistic view, but also, don't Lions eat lesser animals? What rights do they have (from your point of view) to end that lesser animals rights? They most likely could eat vegetables also, but instead they eat the poor innocent limping gazelle who can't keep up with the herd.

 

 

 

 

 

Its not actually a view, its a question, hence the "?" at the end of it. To you the answer is "god gave us dominion over the earth".

 

 

 

Here's a fact: (not to be harsh) but 'upper' animals could care less about 'lower' animals, it's food they eat it. In this way, I guess you could say we're gracious, in that we also eat vegetables. But from a religious view, it's ok for us to eat them.

 

 

 

It's called selfishness, "Me first" is the creed. Is being selfish morally right?

[megakiller32]

[hide=]

My closing thoughts on the election:

 

 

 

Today, November 4, 2008, marks a major change in America. America's new president, Barack Obama, has been given the honor of being the first African American to be elected as the President of the United States of America, one of the most powerful positions in the world. With 338 Electoral votes, he became the 44th President. John McCain gave him a wonderful speech of congratulations. Obama gave a powerful victory speech about historical and social progress, shattering over 200 years of American history, and becoming the first Democrat to take Virginia since the 1960s.

 

 

 

This speech impacted me, as well as millions of others in the country, not to mention billions of people in the world. The world is celebrating Obama's victory tonight, not just America. I, too, changed tonight; I used to be ashamed of being American. I used to think it was disgraceful and America was full of nothing but insane religious fanatics. Who knows how far the world will be in 50 years... Maybe the world will be an accepting, fully-secularized collective. Maybe there will be no petty squabbles over land, such as rivalry between nations. Perhaps we'll be one one-government Global in the future. One can only imagine.

 

 

 

There were some losses tonight, though. Arkansas Act 1 passed, banning homosexual couples from adopting. I think California Proposition 8 passed as well, banning gay marriage, which was legalized in May 2008 by California Supreme Court. Despite these unjust losses, the idea of freedom lives on. With the pieces in position, I do not doubt that one day -perhaps very soon- gay rights will be fully recognized as a human right and people, gay or straight (or even transgender), will have equal rights.

 

 

 

This has been the best presidential election that I've ever witnessed. Both sides did a great job, and both stood up for what they believed to be right, and I respect that.

 

 

 

You're morally deprived.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, husbands can kill their wives, because they got into a fight with them.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, America will be worse off than most countries.

 

 

 

Who knows, maybe in 50 years, Religion will be banned.

 

 

 

All I can say is, if we stay the course, in 50 years, I won't be proud of anything.

 

 

 

The fact is, Obama is an Atheistic morally deprived President Elect.

 

 

 

 

 

You really do just make nonsense up as you go along dont you?

[/hide]

 

 

 

Yea, I made that up, I doubt it'll be that bad, but it's about setting principles, and having a good moral standard.

 

 

 

And at Megakillr, I realize religion is a choice, but I also realize that some religions set good moral standards, while others don't. And, in my opinion, abortion does not constitute good moral boundaries.

 

 

 

Let me guess, those with good moral standards are those that share the same standards as you do right, and those that dont are the ones that do not?

 

 

 

You say some religions set moral standards and some do not.

 

Which religions are you saying, "do not"?

 

Forget religion in politics, they just don't mix.

 

Abortions are one of those long debatable topics, I think there needs to be an Official TIF abortion thread.

 

 

 

Bringing your religious beliefs into politics, is exactly why Palin is now fairly unliked compared to Biden Obama. Creationism should not be taught in schools. Let the parents ram it down the children's throats, not the teachers.

[Saru Inc]

First off, let me say that this is my OPINION, feel free to think differently. But, yes, obviously I think Christianity holds good moral standards, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. But, I believe that Islam does not, with things like Sharia Law (sp?) and killing the 'infidels.' But, that's just my opinion, and yes, I'm singling Islam out, I don't know enough about Hinduism or Buddhism to make claims.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But also, you say no to Creationism in schools, I say no to Evolution, which is why I think schools altogether should drop it. Maybe have the teacher say "and so, go home and ask your parents how the world started" or someting along the lines of that.

[1_man_army]

First off, let me say that this is my OPINION, feel free to think differently. But, yes, obviously I think Christianity holds good moral standards, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. But, I believe that Islam does not, with things like Sharia Law (sp?) and killing the 'infidels.' But, that's just my opinion, and yes, I'm singling Islam out, I don't know enough about Hinduism or Buddhism to make claims.

 

 

 

But also, you say no to Creationism in schools, I say no to Evolution, which is why I think schools altogether should drop it. Maybe have the teacher say "and so, go home and ask your parents how the world started" or someting along the lines of that.

 

 

 

Science should be taught from a scientific point of view. If we don't teach scientific areas because they conflict with religion then everyone will lose out. What next, we're not learning about dinosaurs because some religious people think they shared the earth with people?

 

 

 

As for the morality of Islam, all religions have bits that, if interpreted a certain way, look bad. The bible has plenty of those. It also has bits that are selectively ignored. America promotes capitalism and promotes the American Dream (ie anyone can come and get rich) but Jesus says:

 

 

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Mark 10:23-25).

 

 

 

See how easy it is to single little bits out of a text to make a point...Jesus was a socialist :roll:

[Utopianflame]

First off, let me say that this is my OPINION, feel free to think differently. But, yes, obviously I think Christianity holds good moral standards, otherwise I wouldn't believe in it. But, I believe that Islam does not, with things like Sharia Law (sp?) and killing the 'infidels.' But, that's just my opinion, and yes, I'm singling Islam out, I don't know enough about Hinduism or Buddhism to make claims.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But also, you say no to Creationism in schools, I say no to Evolution, which is why I think schools altogether should drop it. Maybe have the teacher say "and so, go home and ask your parents how the world started" or someting along the lines of that.

 

 

 

 

 

Creationism is not science, ergo it does not belong in science class, if you want to teach it in a class on religous studies feel free.

 

Evolution on the other hand is a widely accepted testable and tested (if incomplete) and hence does have a place in a science class, in particular one about biology. Also evolution has nothing at all to do with how the world started.

[Deiophobus]

Almost all people who say Islam is an evil religion, or isn't moral, just don't know anything about it. They only know what they hear on the news, about Islamic extremism. Saru, Shariah law doesn't say anything about killing "infidels". In fact, the Qur'an says that anyone who kills an innocent person will go to hell.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Not necessarily, like I believe Capital Punishment is bad. But morally it's right. I don't like it because I believe it's an easy way out. Now, that's just one example.

 

In your opinion. There is a massive problem with highlighting morality as only being one-dimensional. Let's take two issues:

 

 

 

Abortion - you perceive it as murder. I perceive it a freedom of choice for woman to dictate what happens to their own body. Two views on the same issue.

 

 

 

Capital punishment - you perceive it was justified because the punishment is equal to the crime, the ultimate acceptance, if you will. I perceive is an unneeded death, and that killing any born human is wrong. Two views on the same issue.

 

 

 

That's your problem in defending or attacking something only on "moral" grounds, and it's also the problem with proclaiming to be the defender of certain morals. No matter how convinced you are that your perception of morals is the correct one, I am also equally as resolute in mine, and moreover, we both have the right to hold those opinions. Morality is subjective, therefore unless there is a clear consensus (such as with murder, theft etc.), you cannot apply a moral onto an entire populace.

 

 

 

Those morals are not applicable to everyone, and indeed, we go on to a greater issue - is it right to force morals onto people even if they don't happen to believe in those morals?

 

 

 

Surely the answer to that question, in the country which prides itself on freedom, is 'no'.

[magekillr]

I can address this:

 

 

 

But, I believe that Islam does not, with things like Sharia Law (sp?) and killing the 'infidels.' But, that's just my opinion, and yes, I'm singling Islam out, I don't know enough about Hinduism or Buddhism to make claims.

 

 

 

If you study Arabia during the time that Islam was spreading, you might have a better understanding of the origins of Islam, and what it is actually about, and at the most important timetime of its revelation, its purest form. Looking at radical Islam today (which is essentially a bastardization of the religion), and tying it to the religion of Islam is mistaking the driver for the car. Its trying to understand a holy book from the 7th Century, by taking the word of strict constructionists who have nothing in common with the religions values or teachings, and also reading the context of when it was written to apply to modern situations and political problems.

 

 

 

The pre-Islamic period in Arabia was known as jahiliyyah (translated as time of ignorance or time of irascibility which refers to the need of Arabians to retaliate and violence against enemies and non-enemies alike. This was ingrained in their culture, even new converts to Islam could not shed this psyche immediately. It is probably for this reason that the Quran emphasizes the concept of hilmto remain calm in the most difficult of circumstances, to not hit back when suffering injury, etc. This virtue also inspired the newly converted Muslims to take positive action: feed the hungry, liberate slaves, look after each other, etc. The point of all this is to understand that the psyche of Muslims was to counter-act the type of aggressive and violent practices that were present in pre-Islamic Arabia, not to promote them.

 

 

 

With respect to specific verses in the Quran, that at first glance, may seem anti-Semitic, one has to do three things, have a good translation, and understand the context and the great implications of the specific passage, and most importantly understand that in order to be a Muslim, it is imperative that you revere Moses and Jesus and have a pluralistic understanding of all 3 Abrahamic messengers.

 

 

 

First, a good translation is necessary because the Quran is not a text that can be read one verse at a time, translated literally, with the expectation that the translation will give a rigid law that must be followed (just like the you cant do with the Bible). It is like a poem, and literally means recitation and was meant to be recited aloud, so the symbolism and allegory could be appreciated. This is often lost in translation.

 

 

 

Second, context is important because revealed passages often referred to events taking place in a very unstable Arabia, with tribes fighting wars against each other. Context is also important because in the verses where the Quran is speaking about the Jews, it is referring not to the Jewish faith, or Jews forever on Earth, but tribes of Jews who had gone against the word of God, and who were not even true their own faith, or as people of the Book, because of political and tribal strife. Also, the Quran criticizes the Jews who specifically attacked Muslims in Arabia, mocked their faith, and were spiteful and abusive to new Muslims. Thus, criticism was directed against a specific group of people for their specific actions.

 

 

 

Also, you should also note that criticism of Jews is also frequent in the Bible, for similar reasons.

 

 

 

Egs.

 

 

 

*The Hebrew Bible, particularly Micah (Chapter 3:1-12) and Hosea (Chapter 8:1-14), in which these prophets condemned the Jews who abhor justice and pervert all equity and who build Zion with blood and Jerusalem with wrong. These prophets cursed Israel as a useless vessel among nations, and called for the curse of God to send a fire upon [Judahs] cities and to make Jerusalem a heap of ruins.

 

*Similarly, in the Book of Deuteronomy (Verses 16-68), Moses warns the Jews that God will send upon you curses, confusion, and frustration, in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly, on account of the evil of your doings, because you have forsaken me (28:20).

 

*In Matthew (Chapter 23:13-39), Jesus repeatedly admonishes the Jews for their hypocrisy and injustice, and condemns them for the killing of past prophets. Jesus says, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.

 

 

 

Third, very few people know these days that Quran is simply a confirmation of previous scriptures. The messages originates with Abraham to Ishmael and Isaac to Moses and so on: Verily, those who have attained to faith [in the divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christiansall who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deedsno fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. (Quran 5:69). So, to point blank claim that the Quran is radical is ridiculous. I can give many other examples of pluralism in the Quran and how the religion wasnt originally founded as an antithesis to the previous 2 monotheistic faiths, but a continuation of their basic message.

[Saru Inc]

Not necessarily, like I believe Capital Punishment is bad. But morally it's right. I don't like it because I believe it's an easy way out. Now, that's just one example.

 

In your opinion. There is a massive problem with highlighting morality as only being one-dimensional. Let's take two issues:

 

 

 

Abortion - you perceive it as murder. I perceive it a freedom of choice for woman to dictate what happens to their own body. Two views on the same issue.

 

 

 

Capital punishment - you perceive it was justified because the punishment is equal to the crime, the ultimate acceptance, if you will. I perceive is an unneeded death, and that killing any born human is wrong. Two views on the same issue.

 

 

 

That's your problem in defending or attacking something only on "moral" grounds, and it's also the problem with proclaiming to be the defender of certain morals. No matter how convinced you are that your perception of morals is the correct one, I am also equally as resolute in mine, and moreover, we both have the right to hold those opinions. Morality is subjective, therefore unless there is a clear consensus (such as with murder, theft etc.), you cannot apply a moral onto an entire populace.

 

 

 

Those morals are not applicable to everyone, and indeed, we go on to a greater issue - is it right to force morals onto people even if they don't happen to believe in those morals?

 

 

 

Surely the answer to that question, in the country which prides itself on freedom, is 'no'.

 

 

 

That's basically what I was trying to say...

 

 

 

And as to Utopian, it's obvious no one read the link I gave. Which is why I never post them, and then when people ask why I don't post them...