Ranging in PVP using the wilderness ditch

[Soma2035]

Everyone who says that Jagex specifically decided to allow rangers to shoot over the ditch, HOW ON EARTH DO YOU KNOW?! Were you working with RuneScape programmers? Did you have an interview with Andrew Gower? Do you possess an uncanny ability to read people's minds to find their intentions from nearly a year ago?

 

 

 

And even if they DID specifically allow players to range over the ditch, they never thought that players would be able to fight each other across the ditch, as it was not in the wilderness. Jagex might have made it so that players could shoot guards or skeletons. But I can guarantee you that while that ditch was being programmed, no one at Jagex said to themselves "I'll make players able to shoot over this ditch so that a year from now, if we decide to make worlds PVP, it can give players using ranged an enormous advantage."

 

 

 

Because as rudimentary my knowledge of java programming is, I do know the basics of creating game objects.

 

 

 

As to your second argument, Madmanpur3 has already addressed this what, five times? Just because Jagex did not intend for it to be used in this fashion doesn't make it a bug. A bug, as Jagex themselves have defined it in their rules, is an ERROR IN THE SOFTWARE. Go read it yourself if you don't believe me.

 

 

 

Overlooking something that's useful to players is an example of emergent gameplay. Not bug abuse. They meant for this ditch to be attacked over, it should be obvious to anyone with even the slightest programming knowledge. Whether they meant it to be an obstacle for rangers to abuse or not is irrelevant, because it is not a bug.

 

 

 

Now, Jagex has changed things before that were gamebreaking. But as I've proved to you, this isn't.

 

 

 

Bugs:

 

- Being able to teleport out of Barbarian Assault and keep blood runes you took.

 

- Being able to PK in Falador in the old wilderness after the release of POHs.

 

- Being able to duplicate valuable items with the party chest.

 

 

 

Emergent Gameplay that has been changed:

 

- Logging out to remove Teleport Block.

 

- Hiring alchers at MTA to help you quickly train magic when you could trade inside.

 

- Trapping Commander Zilyana in the corner of her room.

 

- Using the Wild to Non Wild attack clause to quickly train range (1.4m+ per hour)

 

 

 

Emergent Gameplay that HASN'T been changed:

 

- Dropping your items so you can return and grab them if you're about to die.

 

- Using Dragon Spears alongside Ice Barrage to move a victim into multi.

 

 

 

There's just a few examples. Now you're saying that an unexpected safespot is so ridiculously gamebreaking that it has to be fixed? If so, you really need to lurk more, and understand what gamebreaking actually means, as far as Runescape goes. Something that can be countered easily (Ranged or magical attacks, PKing in other spots), and is nothing new (Cow pens have the same effect in lumbridge. Fences and Gates usually have some similar abuse here and there) is really not gamebreaking enough to warrant a fix, or the bother of creating multiple copies of the RS map with minor differences.

[brando13a]

They meant for this ditch to be attacked over, ..... Whether they meant it to be an obstacle for rangers to abuse or not is irrelevant, because it is not a bug.

 

 

 

excuse me? How is the ability to abuse (your own words) the obstacle irrelevant?

 

 

 

Bug or not, abuse is a relevant discussion for means to change something. Tylenol isnt illegal but you can abuse it to effects as bad or worse than main stream illegal narcotics. This may not be a 'bug' in the sense of broken software (then again, neither was the falador massacre, it was just an UNINTENDED USE OF PROGRAMMING) in which you click a coded action, and something else happens instead, but it is a bug in the sense that things arent happening how they should.

 

 

 

This bug isnt "game breaking" in the sense that everything will stop working because of it. it is broken because it effects a rather large, and not to mention popular area.

 

 

 

Just because it isnt as bad, doesnt mean it isnt bad.

 

 

 

You're basically saying that shades of grey are ok if they benifit me. Sorry but thats not how rules and law works. Thats like saying a school shooting is ok, because its not as bad as the genocide in Darfur.

 

 

 

sorry but I dont accept that logic bud.

[Psycho_Robot]

Everyone who says that Jagex specifically decided to allow rangers to shoot over the ditch, HOW ON EARTH DO YOU KNOW?! Were you working with RuneScape programmers? Did you have an interview with Andrew Gower? Do you possess an uncanny ability to read people's minds to find their intentions from nearly a year ago?

 

 

 

And even if they DID specifically allow players to range over the ditch, they never thought that players would be able to fight each other across the ditch, as it was not in the wilderness. Jagex might have made it so that players could shoot guards or skeletons. But I can guarantee you that while that ditch was being programmed, no one at Jagex said to themselves "I'll make players able to shoot over this ditch so that a year from now, if we decide to make worlds PVP, it can give players using ranged an enormous advantage."

 

 

 

Because as rudimentary my knowledge of java programming is, I do know the basics of creating game objects.

 

 

 

As to your second argument, Madmanpur3 has already addressed this what, five times? Just because Jagex did not intend for it to be used in this fashion doesn't make it a bug. A bug, as Jagex themselves have defined it in their rules, is an ERROR IN THE SOFTWARE. Go read it yourself if you don't believe me.

 

 

 

Since you're so into reading, here are relevant sections from the RuneScape Rules

 

You must not use or attempt to use any cheats or errors which you find in our software. Any exploits which you find must be immediately reported to Jagex through Customer Support.

 

 

 

1. Why do we have this rule?

 

 

 

We have put a lot of effort into balancing our games to make them as fair and fun as possible.

 

 

 

Unintended bugs can spoil the effect of a game, so we obviously want to fix them as quickly as possible. Deliberately taking advantage of a bug can unbalance the game or devalue other players' efforts, so it is against the rules.

 

 

 

[Related questions #2-5 are irrelevant]

 

 

 

You say it has to be an error in the software, and indeed that's what it says in the rules. But the wording of the rule itself is vague. Does "errors which you find in our software" refer exclusively to literal lines of code that are messed up? Or could it encompass a broader realm of errors, both human and technical? I think its the latter. This is an oversight on Jagex's part. They did not foresee that rangers would be able to use the ditch in such a manner, and did not remove a feature that they should have. You're being very rigid in your definition of "bug". You seem to think that Jagex forgetting to take something out that they should does not qualify. If this is your problem with the whole argument, then very well! Replace the word "bug" with the phrase "abuse of game mechanics to obtain unfair advantages" and maybe that will satiate you?

[brando13a]

Just for the sake of argument, I'll set up an equivilant scenario, and you tell me how its different, and whether it should be fixed (supposing it actually happened).

 

 

 

there's an area where there are ranged/mage barriers isolating every square for a rather large, and well populated player area. A melee'er in this hypothetical situation (lets pretend it was put in place to stop you from safe spotting monsters in the surrounding area) would have literally infinite hp, as mages/rangers couldnt retaliate, rendering the combat triangle useless.

 

 

 

Now in our situation, we have a barrier which prevents all melee attacks over a large, and rather well populated player area. A ranger in this situation, (lets pretend it was put in place as a warning for the dangers of the wilderness to stop wanderer's/lurers/newbies) would have literally infinite hp, as mages/melee'ers would have no way to effectively retaliate, rendering the combat triangle useless.

 

 

 

 

 

hmmm, now would you have a problem if jagex decided to even the playing fields rather than fix what's wrong now?

[Soma2035]

You say it has to be an error in the software, and indeed that's what it says in the rules. But the wording of the rule itself is vague. Does "errors which you find in our software" refer exclusively to literal lines of code that are messed up? Or could it encompass a broader realm of errors, both human and technical? I think its the latter. This is an oversight on Jagex's part. They did not foresee that rangers would be able to use the ditch in such a manner, and did not remove a feature that they should have. You're being very rigid in your definition of "bug". You seem to think that Jagex forgetting to take something out that they should does not qualify. If this is your problem with the whole argument, then very well! Replace the word "bug" with the phrase "abuse of game mechanics to obtain unfair advantages" and maybe that will satiate you?

 

 

 

Yes, that would satiate me.

 

 

 

But as I pointed out in that very post, "Abuse of Game Mechanics to obtain unfair advantages" aren't always changed. Why? Because the unfair advantage HAS TO BE GAMEBREAKING. If an advantage isn't gamebreaking, that is, everyone can use it somewhat, it doesn't drastically alter anything, and there's an easy way to avoid it, then Jagex hasn't, and shouldn't, waste time changing it.

 

 

 

As pointed out, did you think that Jagex forsaw people getting smited out, realizing it, dropping their item, returning, and retrieving it? Don't you think that's unfair?

 

 

 

Well, this is fairly easy to avoid. PK farther from areas where they can retrieve their items, or kill them before they drop it. Everyone can do it, it's not ridiculously overpowering, and there are numerous ways to avoid it.

 

 

 

The same is the case here. Yes, it's probably an abuse of game mechanics. But that is what emergent gameplay, by definition, is. Using game features in a way that they weren't meant to be used. And that's what most MMORPGs are built on. Look at hybrids who wear dragonhide while using melee weapons. Do you think Jagex intended that? Obviously not, since their manual specifically states their negative defense against magic as a weakness. Yet they haven't changed it, because there are plenty of ways around it, and limitations on it.

 

 

 

The same is true here. This "abuse" is easily avoided AND countered. In fact, there's MULTIPLE ways to counter it. Magical attacks, ranged attacks, team mate to catch them on the other side, luring them deeper by hiding behind a tree or building to block their attacks. It's also a very insignificant portion of the pking area.

[brando13a]

Well, thats the first argument for this that actually says it might be ok, which is what I've been waiting for, so good job soma =D>

 

 

 

However, in your argument, you state possible ways around the fact that this area imbalances the combat triangle to effectively make it:

 

 

 

Range>melee+mage.

 

 

 

Although you are right, there are ways to counter it, it doesnt stop the fact that rangers completely and single handedly dominate the area, no questions asked in terms of balanced gameplay.

 

 

 

A game without balance is chaos. If Jagex started to get lazy and just say "it isnt THAT bad, we can ignore it" then there will be thousands of 'small' imbalances, which eventually overwhelmes the constructs of the games fundamental principles. So if the fact that it isnt THAT game breaking isnt good enough for you, how about the fact that if they follow your logic, eventually the game will corrupt into oblivion and require a basic 'reboot' before anyone will touch it again.

[magmaguard3]

This is as old as the wildy ditch itself. Just a form of noobism. :shock:

[Obtaurian]

 

Although you are right, there are ways to counter it, it doesnt stop the fact that rangers completely and single handedly dominate the area, no questions asked in terms of balanced gameplay.

 

 

 

 

Quite frankly, I'm tired of this topic, so I'm just going to point this out and be on my way.

 

 

 

It's already been established that terrain now plays a major role in PvP. It's quite obvious that there are now places in the game where certain combat styles are more (or far more) beneficial to use. This is not a problem in any way, shape, or form.

 

 

 

Thank you, goodnight.

[1245780]

Can we all just agree that its not a bug and it wasn't made for ranging over?