Ranging in PVP using the wilderness ditch

[SwimmyTheDuck]

The ditch is very tricky, since it is a tactic i dont think they will change it, but all i say is turn off auto retaliate and take off running :ohnoes:

[Psycho_Robot]

you can go pking EVERYWHERE, do you NEED to go to the ditch if you are a meleer? FFS.

 

 

 

If someone wants to PK there they should be able to do that without these rangers abusing bugs. We shouldn't avoid our favorite place to pk because of these guys.

[Obtaurian]

you can go pking EVERYWHERE, do you NEED to go to the ditch if you are a meleer? FFS.

 

 

 

If someone wants to PK there they should be able to do that without these rangers abusing bugs. We shouldn't avoid our favorite place to pk because of these guys.

 

 

 

A bug? Doing what ranged is meant to do is abusing a bug? That's like saying mages abuse bugs because you don't like that they can freeze you. :roll:

[brando13a]

Well Morningrise333, as it seems you didnt actually read any of the topic, I'll say yet again why this is bug abuse -.-

 

 

 

Any other obstacle in runescape, can be traversed, or circumnavigated to reach your target. ie- cow pens, yes, you have to run a heck of a lot, but you WILL eventually reach, and be able to attack your assailant.

 

 

 

The ditch however, provides rangers with a literal perfect shield against melee, without using any food/potions, nor risking any loss whatsoever. As soon as a melee'er gets close, they jump, shoot, jump shoot, and so on, and the melee'er stands no chance of ever even hitting a 0 let alone having a fighting chance. This is bug abuse.

 

 

 

Jagex in no way intended on providing rangers with "infinite hp". and the wilderness ditch provides that, in the form of melee never being able to attack, but range still can.

 

 

 

This is different from the cow pens, that the ranger CANT jump over, and the meleer can eventually reach and attack.

 

 

 

hopefully you see the point, I did say it somewhat redundantly to reiterate the point.

[Obtaurian]

Well Morningrise333, as it seems you didnt actually read any of the topic, I'll say yet again why this is bug abuse -.-

 

 

 

Any other obstacle in runescape, can be traversed, or circumnavigated to reach your target. ie- cow pens, yes, you have to run a heck of a lot, but you WILL eventually reach, and be able to attack your assailant.

 

 

 

The ditch however, provides rangers with a literal perfect shield against melee, without using any food/potions, nor risking any loss whatsoever. As soon as a melee'er gets close, they jump, shoot, jump shoot, and so on, and the melee'er stands no chance of ever even hitting a 0 let alone having a fighting chance. This is bug abuse.

 

 

 

Jagex in no way intended on providing rangers with "infinite hp". and the wilderness ditch provides that, in the form of melee never being able to attack, but range still can.

 

 

 

This is different from the cow pens, that the ranger CANT jump over, and the meleer can eventually reach and attack.

 

 

 

hopefully you see the point, I did say it somewhat redundantly to reiterate the point.

 

 

 

Well Brando, I can see you didn't read any of the topic, or you would've noticed the large number of times I've posted in this thread.

 

 

 

Let's talk about Lletya for a moment. The leave traps provide the same, if not a nastier advantage, than the ditch. Not only can a warrior not reach a ranger, but if he has a particularly low agility level, he's likely get hurt by falling into the trap. Should we remove the leave traps? OF COURSE WE SHOULD! Vote no on using terrain to your advantage. Hell, why not just get rid of Lletya altogether in PvP worlds? And better yet, let's remove any wide open plains, because rangers aren't able to hide from a warriors attacks! Oh no!

 

 

 

I'm a sarcastic son-of-a-[bleep].

[Pikmin_Warrior]

Yeah, but who in their right mind actually goes to Lletya to PK? Only those with the brains of a garden hose.

 

 

 

Edgeville is a far more popular PKing spot then Lletya, so the Leaf Trap manuver is actually a tacticul advantage. THat much I will admit.

 

 

 

As for using the Wild Ditch to completely thwart any melee attacks, it is a case of bug abuse. After all, Rangers are supposed to be defeated by Warriors in the combat triangle. If they can use this to their advantage, they are completely immune to attacks. Mages can't even touch rangers due to their high mage defence, and warriors can't reach them.

 

 

 

This mean rangers break the combat triangle, so as long as this ditch abuse continues to exist, Rangers are more-so gods then other players. And with their powerful enchanted bolts and powerful bows, they can already reak havoc on Warriors, such as with enchanted Dragon Bolts. Those things are capable of destroying players in one or two specials!

[josh181830]

Well Morningrise333, as it seems you didnt actually read any of the topic, I'll say yet again why this is bug abuse -.-

 

 

 

Any other obstacle in runescape, can be traversed, or circumnavigated to reach your target. ie- cow pens, yes, you have to run a heck of a lot, but you WILL eventually reach, and be able to attack your assailant.

 

 

 

The ditch however, provides rangers with a literal perfect shield against melee, without using any food/potions, nor risking any loss whatsoever. As soon as a melee'er gets close, they jump, shoot, jump shoot, and so on, and the melee'er stands no chance of ever even hitting a 0 let alone having a fighting chance. This is bug abuse.

 

 

 

Jagex in no way intended on providing rangers with "infinite hp". and the wilderness ditch provides that, in the form of melee never being able to attack, but range still can.

 

 

 

This is different from the cow pens, that the ranger CANT jump over, and the meleer can eventually reach and attack.

 

 

 

hopefully you see the point, I did say it somewhat redundantly to reiterate the point.

 

 

 

The ranger's just using it to his advantage, if this annoys you, just don't pk near the ditch.. not that hard. Some people train using the wildy ditch, would that be considered bug abuse since the npc can't cross the ditch? No. :roll:

[Profins]

Delete ditch from pvp worlds. What's the point of ditch in pvp world? Protecting you? When it's pvp on both sides? Kk.

[Inuashakent]

Yeah, but who in their right mind actually goes to Lletya to PK? Only those with the brains of a garden hose.

 

 

 

Edgeville is a far more popular PKing spot then Lletya, so the Leaf Trap manuver is actually a tacticul advantage. THat much I will admit. That's what you think.

 

 

 

As for using the Wild Ditch to completely thwart any melee attacks, it is a case of bug abuse. After all, Rangers are supposed to be defeated by Warriors in the combat triangle. If they can use this to their advantage, they are completely immune to attacks. Mages can't even touch rangers due to their high mage defence, and warriors can't reach them. Combat triangle? What a horrible argument... What about Mage > Melee? Is it bug abuse because Meleers always wins?

 

 

 

This mean rangers break the combat triangle, so as long as this ditch abuse continues to exist, Rangers are more-so gods then other players. And with their powerful enchanted bolts and powerful bows, they can already reak havoc on Warriors, such as with enchanted Dragon Bolts. Those things are capable of destroying players in one or two specials!

 

You say the same argument as Morningrise, but you're on the wrong side...? If this bug is as bad as you guys make it out to be, why should Edgeville remain a popular Pk spot?

[Madmanpur3]

If they get rid of this, they have to get rid of the shortcut to the Grand Exchange, any rock climb spots (trollheim is full of them), the leaf traps in Lletya, any log crosses over water, the agility cross to get to the wilderness agility course, etc.

 

 

 

"But it doesn't serve it's purpose anymore so it should be removed" - If JaGex went around removing everything in this game that no longer serves its purpose, the game would change drastically and truth be told they aren't going to bother wasting their time.

 

 

 

Summary - it's not a bug and it's not going to change, and now for some words of wisdom from our good friend Arnold...STOP WHINING!

[brando13a]

the difference between lleyta and the wilderness ditch is that everything in lleyta, and all of your examples actually, have a skill requirement to pass. So, if someone who has poor agility decides to go melee pking in lleyta, it's their own fault, because they should be aware that its a difficult obstacle.

 

 

 

While I do understand that lleyta is effectively the same thing (if you can actually range people over the traps) but trollheim, and the ge pass CANT be ranged over. That's one thing unique (again unless lleyta lets you range over the traps) to the wilderness ditch.

 

 

 

It requires no skill to cross, access, and no penalty whatsoever, it makes rangers invulnerable, which is bug abuse, dont know why people are so keen on having a broken part in the game, it just makes it worse overall.

 

 

 

"But it doesn't serve it's purpose anymore so it should be removed" - If JaGex went around removing everything in this game that no longer serves its purpose, the game would change drastically and truth be told they aren't going to bother wasting their time.

 

 

 

really? Jagex has been making bug fixes and removing/fixing broken/useless things all over runescape for the past year, this is just the first time something majorly abuseable has really come up.

 

If you're such a terrible ranger that you have to resort to a programming oversight in order to win, maybe you should try another combat style... and if you are a good ranger, why argue that this ditch is necessary? you can get your kills anyway :thumbsup:

[Madmanpur3]

Invunerable to melee, that's a joke...if you hit them as they cross the ditch the hit will show up once they land on the other side. As for not being able to range over rock climb spots, yeah you can...and through the GE - I was using that as an example of how melee has its own little spot they can use (Melee player sits at one side of the shortcut, waits for someone to go through it from the other side and then they can hit 2 free hits on the player before they have a chance to do anything, and with 2 dds specs thats 4 hits effectively).

 

 

 

Also, who gives a crap if the other examples I listed have requirements to use...if they were to add a 5 agility requirement to cross the wilderness ditch then all you people proclaiming it's a bug would shut up and say it's all of a sudden fine because it now has a requirement?

 

 

 

Finally, unless it's a game changing bug or a glitch of some sort that enough people get annoyed with, chances are they won't "fix" it, and it's neither.

[Soma2035]

you can go pking EVERYWHERE, do you NEED to go to the ditch if you are a meleer? FFS.

 

 

 

If someone wants to PK there they should be able to do that without these rangers abusing bugs. We shouldn't avoid our favorite place to pk because of these guys.

 

 

 

I think Greater Demons should be made non multi. Too many teams have both ancient and normal mages and use both TB and Ice Barrage.

 

 

 

If someone wants to PK there, they should be able to do that without these mages abusing bugs. We shouldn't avoid our favorite place to pk because of these guys.

 

 

 

Never mind the fact that mages are supposed to use magic, since I don't like it, even though it's clearly programmed to be like that, it's a bug.

[brando13a]

@soma- I dont know why you keep not seeing the vital difference in all of this: INTENT!

 

 

 

Jagex programmed the ditch, true.

 

Jagex programmed magic, again true.

 

 

 

the difference: magic was intended to- attack players, teleblock, freeze, lower stats etc, as those are what jagex openly gave us, and INTENDED for us to use.

 

The ditch was INTENDED to prevent people wandering into the wilderness and being owned by revanents. It was NOT INTENDED by jagex to have the ditch used as a means for rangers to exploit a programming oversight left in the pvp worlds to upset the combat triangle by removing the rangers weakness: melee.

 

 

 

The ditch is an obstacle, but it isnt one that a meleer can get around. the ranger can, and can attack in between doing so. It's broken, and unintentionaly on jagex's part.

[Madmanpur3]

Oh noes! The intent of the mini mountain in the wild north of edge was to charge orbs at the air obelisk! Not so rangers and mages could be safe from meleers! MUST BE FLATTENED NOW!

 

 

 

They DO NOT care if it goes against their intentions unless it is game changing, or enough people complain/whine/moan about it.

[Soma2035]

@soma- I dont know why you keep not seeing the vital difference in all of this: INTENT!

 

 

 

Jagex programmed the ditch, true.

 

Jagex programmed magic, again true.

 

 

 

the difference: magic was intended to- attack players, teleblock, freeze, lower stats etc, as those are what jagex openly gave us, and INTENDED for us to use.

 

The ditch was INTENDED to prevent people wandering into the wilderness and being owned by revanents. It was NOT INTENDED by jagex to have the ditch used as a means for rangers to exploit a programming oversight left in the pvp worlds to upset the combat triangle by removing the rangers weakness: melee.

 

 

 

The ditch is an obstacle, but it isnt one that a meleer can get around. the ranger can, and can attack in between doing so. It's broken, and unintentionaly on jagex's part.

 

 

 

Are you stupid or just pretending to be? When Jagex adds a new object to their game, programming wise, they have to determine it's properties. There's a property that obstructs attacks. For example, the barrows coffins don't allow you to attack over them.

 

 

 

They selected to allow rangers to attack over the ditch. It's not an "accident". They specifically made the choice to allow mage and range attacks to go over it.

 

 

 

If that's not intentional enough for you, about half the things in Runescape are "bugs".

 

 

 

And if a fighter is dumb enough to fight a ranger next to an obstacle, then he or she chooses to give the ranger or wizard the upper hand. Jagex gives us things to use. USE THEM. "I like this spot" is about as good an excuse as "I don't like wearing dragonhide armor when I'm ranging".

[Obtaurian]

@soma- I dont know why you keep not seeing the vital difference in all of this: INTENT!

 

 

 

Jagex programmed the ditch, true.

 

Jagex programmed magic, again true.

 

 

 

the difference: magic was intended to- attack players, teleblock, freeze, lower stats etc, as those are what jagex openly gave us, and INTENDED for us to use.

 

The ditch was INTENDED to prevent people wandering into the wilderness and being owned by revanents. It was NOT INTENDED by jagex to have the ditch used as a means for rangers to exploit a programming oversight left in the pvp worlds to upset the combat triangle by removing the rangers weakness: melee.

 

 

 

The ditch is an obstacle, but it isnt one that a meleer can get around. the ranger can, and can attack in between doing so. It's broken, and unintentionaly on jagex's part.

 

 

 

Well, I suppose I see your logic.

 

 

 

This is going to require a lot of work, however. We're going to have remove just about every p2p area in Runescape for PvP worlds. You see, Jagex did not design most areas to be used for PvP. In fact, I think we can safely assume that the Wilderness is the only area in Runescape that was designed with it in mind. So by that/your logic, we need to just scrap about 75% of Runescape. CLEARLY the tree gnome maze, Khazard battlefield, observatory, feldip hunter area, and Al Kharid were not designed for the purpose of attacking other players. I feel that this is bug abuse, and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

 

 

You win, Brando. I've seen the light.

[brando13a]

@ soma- I'm not saying "dont use everything available to you", for the time being use the ditch, you're free to do so, I'm just pointing out that its very likely to change in one way or another. The ditch was put into the game what? a year or more before pvp worlds came out, and the ditch was put in place in a time when you could only attack on one side of it. Programming oversights lead to this problem, and its an obvious problem now that people are using it, this is how game developers find bugs- through trial and error, they cant account for every aspect in a game this big, and i'd say they did a pretty darn good job with pvp worlds considering.

 

 

 

They DIDNT specifically make the choice to allow range and mage to go over it, they specifically didnt BLOCK ranged and mage from going over it, because at the time, there was no need for such stipulations, as people could only fight eachother on one side of the ditch, and the only thing to attack across the ditch would be the wandering black knight/rats.

 

 

 

@Morningrise333- once again, the differences with many of those are the ability to attack back. if someone is in the maze and shoots over it (if thats possible) then the person being attacked can still navigate the maze and retaliate if they so choose, granted i doubt anyone would stick around. And you are correct, most of runescape wasnt designed for pvp, and it will lead to problems, but jagex is a big company, and they'll figure things out.

 

 

 

My quarrel with the ditch, is that it both no longer serves its intended purpose, yet still exists. And that it is abuseable because of the fact that it exists in pvp worlds.

 

 

 

think of it this way, you could go to school and beat up your janitor, and he couldnt do a thing about it because of laws protecting you as a minor.

 

 

 

in this scenario, you are the ranger, the janitor is the melee'er and the laws are the ditch. they arent fair given that circumstance, but they still exist. At what point does the inability to defend yourself become a problem with laws/stipulations set in place?

 

 

 

that scenario is an oversight in the making of the laws, and is very much like this case, except that we can safely remove the ditch and the only thing that changes is rangers loose their advantage in that 1/1000th of the world (albeit a bugged advantage)

 

 

 

edit- in the given scenario, yes you (ranger) have repercussions such as juvenile detention, and being charged with assault as a minor, but if the janitor did anything in retaliation, i guarantee you he'd go to jail. That is no exaggeration, there have been cases of this happening if you care to look it up.

 

that's the only real difference- in real life you have repercussions (punishment), using the wilderness ditch is a 0 risk venture.

[Soma2035]

They DIDNT specifically make the choice to allow range and mage to go over it, they specifically didnt BLOCK ranged and mage from going over it, because at the time, there was no need for such stipulations, as people could only fight eachother on one side of the ditch, and the only thing to attack across the ditch would be the wandering black knight/rats.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter if players can attack players now. Jagex intentionally permitted people to attack over the ditch, be it players or monsters. This is not a bug any more than allowing people to cast teleport block is. And this is no more game breaking than being able to be teleport blocked and ice barraged at the same time is.

[brando13a]

Wrong suma, ranged is assumed to be allowed unless specifically blocked. When Jagex implements anything, any new area, open space is open, and traversable by walking, and projectiles, there are no restrictions on the space. This only means that they didnt think to block ranged in that specific area, not that they intended for range to work.

 

 

 

It's a difficult concept i know, but its the same as you giving someone a piece of paper. they may choose to write on it, or they may choose to make a paper airplane out of it, even if you're intent was for them to write on it.

 

 

 

In this manner, you didnt specifically say they couldnt make a paper airplane, but it is assumed that they can.

[Obtaurian]

Wrong suma, ranged is assumed to be allowed unless specifically blocked. When Jagex implements anything, any new area, open space is open, and traversable by walking, and projectiles, there are no restrictions on the space. This only means that they didnt think to block ranged in that specific area, not that they intended for range to work.

 

 

 

It's a difficult concept i know, but its the same as you giving someone a piece of paper. they may choose to write on it, or they may choose to make a paper airplane out of it, even if you're intent was for them to write on it.

 

 

 

In this manner, you didnt specifically say they couldnt make a paper airplane, but it is assumed that they can.

 

 

 

Quit making pointless analogies. It is not a difficult concept in the least.

 

 

 

____A_____

 

------------

 

____B_____

 

 

 

A = Player using ranged.

 

---- = Ditch

 

B = Player using melee.

 

 

 

lrn2fight.

[brando13a]

Well it's become painfully obvious that simply telling what's wrong doesnt work, so I'm trying "dumb it down" so to speak, by making analogies as I see fit, granted they arent the greatest, but they still hold some context as to what we're discussing.

 

 

 

As for you're drawing... yes... that is... one frame of what could possibly be called a strategem? All its missing is player B jumping across to attack, and player A doing the same, attacking, and the process repeating pointlessly.

 

 

 

The point is- its broken, and until I see any real justification as to why it is so, because there hasnt been a single point yet that stands out as saying "This is completely fair to all parties involved and is the way the game should be"

[Zaaps1]

Best solution = Man up, range pray, and stay away from Edge?

[brando13a]

Currently I agree zaaps, melee stands no chance there so it's a pointless venture to try.

[Obtaurian]

Well it's become painfully obvious that simply telling what's wrong doesnt work, so I'm trying "dumb it down" so to speak, by making analogies as I see fit, granted they arent the greatest, but they still hold some context as to what we're discussing.

 

 

 

As for you're drawing... yes... that is... one frame of what could possibly be called a strategem? All its missing is player B jumping across to attack, and player A doing the same, attacking, and the process repeating pointlessly.

 

 

 

The point is- its broken, and until I see any real justification as to why it is so, because there hasnt been a single point yet that stands out as saying "This is completely fair to all parties involved and is the way the game should be"

 

 

 

You've been given a variety of great, valid arguments. Choose your poison.

 

 

 

Certain areas are NOT fair to all parties involved. Why should they be? You have yet to provide a rebuttal to any of the arguments presented.