Ranging in PVP using the wilderness ditch

[Psycho_Robot]

The people who are saying that if we remove the ditch we might as well remove all safespots are misunderstanding the situation. THE DITCH IS NOT A NORMAL SAFESPOT. IT IS LIKE A FENCE THAT ALLOWS YOU TO INSTANTLY TELEPORT FROM ONE SIDE TO THE OTHER. Ordinary safe spots require you to run around them. This means that you must use run energy to put yourself in the safespot and protect you from damage. If you have a safespot such as a fence, a meleer can run around and attack. This will 1.) let the meleer actually hit you for a moment before you get back into the safespot and 2.) make you use up run energy. Eventually you'll be out of run energy. But the wilderness ditch doesn't work like that. You just need to click and you hop over and are safe again. You don't use run energy, it takes no time. One click and you're safe. This isn't what Jagex wanted. This isn't how it should be. And I guarantee you that Jagex will be fixing this, because it is very clearly an exploit.

 

 

 

Additionally, to the people who say that this isn't a problem because you can just pk somewhere else, someone who wants to pk in Edgeville should absolutely be able to do so without having to deal with bug abusers. Also, just because you can AVOID bug abusers doesn't mean you shouldn't deal with them anyways. You're basically suggesting that we surrender Edgeville to them and turn a blind eye. Finally, this isn't a strategy. It's got no thought involved in it. Running into a castle and shutting doors behind you to lose someone is strategy. Running around a fence to get a pursuer caught behind it allowing you to range them is a strategy. Both have a chance of failing, and both have risks involved. Mindlessly clicking on a ditch to teleport to safety over and over is NOT a strategy.

[killerbeer0]

 

 

 

Additionally, to the people who say that this isn't a problem because you can just pk somewhere else, someone who wants to pk in Edgeville should absolutely be able to do so without having to deal with bug abusers

 

 

 

Let me guess? You also like to flame "pray noobs"?

 

 

 

Excuse people for using everything they have available.

[Psycho_Robot]

 

 

 

Additionally, to the people who say that this isn't a problem because you can just pk somewhere else, someone who wants to pk in Edgeville should absolutely be able to do so without having to deal with bug abusers

 

 

 

Let me guess? You also like to flame "pray noobs"?

 

 

 

Excuse people for using everything they have available.

 

 

 

No I don't. I highly encourage using everything available. Unless you start using things in a matter for which they were NOT intended. Then it becomes bug abuse.

[Pikmin_Warrior]

Okay, I'm reading what both sides have to say about this, and this is what I'm getting.

 

 

 

People who support this method of ranging, calling it a stratagy, are afraid of what might happen if Jagex got rid of the ditch. They believe this would allow the other players to complain about the other safe spots, and remove them as well. In other words, they believe that by removing the ditch, Jagex will remove all other safe spots in game, which would give Warriors a "fair shot" at getting to Mages and Rangers.

 

 

 

As for those who oppose trhis, calling this a type of bug abuse, think this would give Rangers, and possibly Mages, a huge edge over Warriors in Edgeville. This allows a Ranger to completly aviod a Warriors attacks, while slowly whittling down the Warriors HP to nothing. This leaves them invulnerable to harm from simple Melee weapons. In short, the summary is that people fear that not fixing this will lead to Edgeville barren of Warriors, giving Rangers the edge over any mage in the area, which would make Edgeville a complete Ranger Town.

 

 

 

Could either of these happen? The answer is no. Why?

 

 

 

If Jagex were to get rid of the Wilderness ditch in PvP worlds, they would not remove every safe spot to simply "make it fair." But this should also be realised by you all as a somewhat unfair tactic. This leaves a ranger unharmed by Warrior's, and the armor a Ranger uses is very resiliant to Mage attacks. This would allow a ranger to dominate the area with little or no harm done to them.

 

 

 

If they did not, it probably wouldn't lead to Edgeville being taken over by Rangers. It would simply mean players would stray away from the ditch, so they do not get shot down by Rangers. True, the method is a bit...unorthadox, giving Rangers the edge they need over the type of the combat triangle they are made to defeat. But are their not large, wide open spaces scattered throughout Runescape, where the Warriors rule supreme?

 

 

 

In short, why not compromise. Keep the ditch, but simply add a 10-20 second delay before being able to jump over it again.

 

 

 

 

 

....Now that I think about it, isn't this kinda like that "House Hiding" tactic people in FOG used before the time limit to jump back into a house was placed?

[Mike_Ike111]

How come everyone is a bunch of [developmentally delayed]s who don't read the OP before they post?

 

 

 

If someone is ranging you and you try to jump over the ditch to get to them they will jump to the other side and repeat the process. The ditch needs to be taken out completely from all worlds. It is useless and does not stop luring because the people who are stupid enough to be lured won't take the time to read the warning.

[BlackKingX]

Yeah. Things like that are annoying. One time I was "familiar-bashing" someone(Where you have a full inventory of food, summon a strong familiar, then just go into a multi-combat area and have the familiar attack the person for you while you make sure you stay alive.) and they ran into a narrow path that my familiar couldn't go through because he was too big.

 

 

 

ANNOYING.

[Zygimantas]

Solution is simple. Go farther into the wildy, that way if someone really wants to fight u they will follow and then the ditch is too far away to cross...

[extremefish]

How come everyone is a bunch of [developmentally delayed] who don't read the OP before they post?

 

 

 

If someone is ranging you and you try to jump over the ditch to get to them they will jump to the other side and repeat the process. The ditch needs to be taken out completely from all worlds. It is useless and does not stop luring because the people who are stupid enough to be lured won't take the time to read the warning.

 

 

 

Yes, everyone that is saying they might as well remove all safespots is stupid. im saying that the ditch wasnt implied for

 

this and should be removed

[Sid Icarus]

They might as well remove all agility shortcuts.

[Psycho_Robot]

Agility shortcuts require an agility level to use, and often can't be shot over such as the ones in the castle walls. The wilderness ditch requires no skill levels to use.

[Pinkbullet3]

Implement this simple little rule:

 

 

 

AFTER YOU HOP OVER THE DITCH, YOU MUST WAIT AT LEAST 10 (or 15) SECONDS BEFORE BEING ABLE TO HOP OVER AGAIN.

 

 

 

NO U DONT!

 

Wtf are you talking about?

 

 

 

"NO U DONT" isn't even a real answer to what I suggested... noob.

[Phox1515]

no it hasnt happend to me.... i dont pk in pvp world style.... only mini games like c wars and fog

[extremefish]

extremefish wrote:

 

Quote:

 

Implement this simple little rule:

 

 

 

AFTER YOU HOP OVER THE DITCH, YOU MUST WAIT AT LEAST 10 (or 15) SECONDS BEFORE BEING ABLE TO HOP OVER AGAIN.

 

 

 

 

 

NO U DONT!

 

 

 

Wtf are you talking about?

 

 

 

"NO U DONT" isn't even a real answer to what I suggested... noob.

 

 

 

wtf? u dont have to wait 10 seconds to hop back over the ditch u noob

[Muddybob]

wtf? u dont have to wait 10 seconds to hop back over the ditch u noob

 

 

 

If you actually had the brains to READ HIS ORIGINAL POST

 

Then he is stating that they should CONSIDER THAT IDEA and put it into use to solve this otherwise insignificant problem.

 

 

 

And to those who are saying they should remove this and not other safespots. So are you asking all rangers to move to the cowpens and wait for people to start ranting there?

[brando13a]

And to those who are saying they should remove this and not other safespots. So are you asking all rangers to move to the cowpens and wait for people to start ranting there?

 

 

 

 

 

I see you suffer from cronic stupid. I'll lay this out for you:

 

 

 

Cowpen- Melee has a CHANCE to at least REACH the ranger.

 

Ditch- Mellee has NO CHANCE to touch the ranger at all. NO chance. No way to do damage. This is the equivilant of hacking for infinite hp. it is a bug, and an abusable one at that.

 

 

 

Cowpen- good strategy, ranger's only way out is to run/tele

 

ditch- ranger can jump back and forth while attacking, while melee can just follow/run away to try and live. again, melee has NO opportunity to retaliate.

 

 

 

Cowpen- not abuseable, just using ranged for what its meant for, shooting over an obstacle.

 

Ditch- again, using ranged what its meant for, shooting over an obstacle- BUT does not give anyone else a fair chance to fight back.

 

 

 

I AM a ranger. I know its abuseable. And if you're too greedy or stupid to understand that this isnt fair, well, congrats on being a sub-par human being =D>

[Muddybob]

And to those who are saying they should remove this and not other safespots. So are you asking all rangers to move to the cowpens and wait for people to start ranting there?

 

 

 

 

 

I see you suffer from cronic stupid. I'll lay this out for you:

 

 

 

Cowpen- Melee has a CHANCE to at least REACH the ranger.

 

Ditch- Mellee has NO CHANCE to touch the ranger at all. NO chance. No way to do damage. This is the equivilant of hacking for infinite hp. it is a bug, and an abusable one at that.

 

 

 

Cowpen- good strategy, ranger's only way out is to run/tele

 

ditch- ranger can jump back and forth while attacking, while melee can just follow/run away to try and live. again, melee has NO opportunity to retaliate.

 

 

 

Cowpen- not abuseable, just using ranged for what its meant for, shooting over an obstacle.

 

Ditch- again, using ranged what its meant for, shooting over an obstacle- BUT does not give anyone else a fair chance to fight back.

 

 

 

I AM a ranger. I know its abuseable. And if you're too greedy or stupid to understand that this isnt fair, well, congrats on being a sub-par human being =D>

 

 

 

It's "Chronic Stupidity" if you wish to insult me, use the right spelling and words.

 

 

 

Rangers are SUPPOSED TO NOT GET HIT. They are supposed to use distance to their advantage. The ditch is only using their environment to slow down their opponent to run away. If a meleer lands a solid hit on the ranger, the ranger's screwed cause of the lack of good melee defence unless it's a tank ranger. The meleer does have a good chance, somehow lure the ranger back a bit and hit him, it's not impossible. You can always trick them by jumping over twice.

 

I AM A RANGER ALSO. I know it's not considered "Abuse". It's the same thing as meleers "abusing" their melee gear. Give melee-ers armor, you gotta give rangers something that won't tie down their range bonus, thus, environmental boosts. I'm not stupid or greedy, I'm just using my common sense.

 

Rangers should be able to use this. It's like saying you can't drive to school cause that's abuse over those people who have to walk. You're being stupid by wanting to unbalance the triangle more than it already is. Rangers have always had problems against melee.

[Psycho_Robot]

 

Rangers are SUPPOSED TO NOT GET HIT.

 

When you put it like that its like you're saying they should be impossible to hit, which is of course not true.

 

They are supposed to use distance to their advantage. The ditch is only using their environment to slow down their opponent to run away.

 

If you had read the post you would know that the ranger is NOT running away. He is continually jumping over the ditch to avoid the meleer while ATTACKING him. If the ranger were just hopping over the ditch to run away, I would have NO problem with it.

 

If a meleer lands a solid hit on the ranger, the ranger's screwed cause of the lack of good melee defence unless it's a tank ranger.

 

No meleer can one-hit a ranger unless said meleer is 50+ levels above the ranger in question. And if this is the case, the ranger SHOULD get one-hitted.

 

The meleer does have a good chance, somehow lure the ranger back a bit and hit him, it's not impossible. You can always trick them by jumping over twice.

 

If the ranger is not willing to get hit they will not follow you away from the ditch, its like a crutch for them. Since the ranger won't follow the battle will just have been a waste of time and food for the meleer. It needs to be taken away.

 

I AM A RANGER ALSO. I know it's not considered "Abuse". It's the same thing as meleers "abusing" their melee gear. Give melee-ers armor, you gotta give rangers something that won't tie down their range bonus, thus, environmental boosts. I'm not stupid or greedy, I'm just using my common sense.

 

No one here is saying that rangers should not be able to uses NORMAL SAFESPOTS. The ditch is NOT a normal safespot. And you say that using the ditch is equivalent to meleers using armor? That's bogus. The ditch completely prevents the rangers from being hit while they attack the meleer. The meleers armor provides defense against the attack but does NOT make them invulnerable.

 

Rangers should be able to use this. It's like saying you can't drive to school cause that's abuse over those people who have to walk. You're being stupid by wanting to unbalance the triangle more than it already is. Rangers have always had problems against melee.

 

This is the best part! :twss:

 

 

 

You talk about the triangle, then you go on to mention that "Rangers have always had problems against melee". Well guess what! If you take into account the combat triangle, then rangers are SUPPOSED to be weak against meleers!

 

 

 

Advantages - With light, articulated armour for optimum ranging, the ranger is able to substitute what his or her armour lacks in physical Defence with magical resistance. This makes the ranger a strong adversary for the mage, who will find a foe that is well defended against magical attacks while also being able to attack from long distances.

 

 

 

Disadvantages - To keep nimble, the ranger has sacrificed a large element of his or her armour's melee Defence. A hand-to-hand combatant will be able to aim attacks at the joints and other unprotected areas with relative ease, as long as they can get close enough to do so.

 

[Muddybob]

as long as they can get close enough to do so.

 

^ Rangers are supposed to run away.

 

 

 

When you put it like that its like you're saying they should be impossible to hit, which is of course not true.

 

I'm purely basing this on the human past. The old fashioned Castle Siege. Knights (Meleers) Rush recklessly towards the wall and throw up ladders(Jumping the ditch) and the rangers shoot and let the pikemen on the wall defend them, or they retreat while shooting (which of course is not implemented)

 

 

 

If you had read the post you would know that the ranger is NOT running away. He is continually jumping over the ditch to avoid the meleer while ATTACKING him. If the ranger were just hopping over the ditch to run away, I would have NO problem with it.

 

 

 

I have read the post yes? And he is technically running OUT OF MELEE RANGE. Continually jumping the ditch is their way of moving out of range to use their advantage that they have.

 

 

 

No meleer can one-hit a ranger unless said meleer is 50+ levels above the ranger in question. And if this is the case, the ranger SHOULD get one-hitted.

 

 

 

Well check this out then, a dds special double 33s, leaving the Ranger and critical hit points and most likely poisoned.

 

An AGS special would hit the ranger for 60 or even more, leaving them again at critical situations. One more solid hit would finish them.

 

I never said they would be 1 hitted, I said they would have a little "Problem" cause their in range of being KOed

 

 

 

If the ranger is not willing to get hit they will not follow you away from the ditch, its like a crutch for them. Since the ranger won't follow the battle will just have been a waste of time and food for the meleer. It needs to be taken away.

 

 

 

Then let them stay there, they don't care about the melee-ers expenses. If you're worried about time, why bother pking? More of, why bother playing RS at all if that's all you're going to get yourself into and complain about?

 

 

 

No one here is saying that rangers should not be able to uses NORMAL SAFESPOTS. The ditch is NOT a normal safespot. And you say that using the ditch is equivalent to meleers using armor? That's bogus. The ditch completely prevents the rangers from being hit while they attack the meleer. The meleers armor provides defense against the attack but does NOT make them invulnerable.

 

 

 

Well gee, 95 range here and I've shot my fair share of arrows at plenty of guys in barrows and Bandos. Guess what, I rarely hit anyways even with Darkbow special I stuck em for a 8 8. Yea, Melee kinda makes them invincible. Try putting them against Vesta's armor, even with diamond bolts they are almost invulnerable. The meleer could still hit the ranger even with the ditch, you just have to get lucky, like pking is all about, luck.

 

 

 

This is the best part! :twss:

 

 

 

You talk about the triangle, then you go on to mention that "Rangers have always had problems against melee". Well guess what! If you take into account the combat triangle, then rangers are SUPPOSED to be weak against meleers!

 

 

 

Rangers are ALREADY weak against melee-ers. Look at the melee weapons they have, then look at the rangers and their things. Strong armor against Fleet of foot, Heavy hitting against rapid attacks.

[forsooth]

it's a pretty smart idea if you think about it, which i did.

[Zaaps1]

Err, sorry if this is insulting to anyone, but reading through this gave me quite a few laughs :lol: . No seriously when you guys figure this out read it over, it's pretty funny when you don't look at it that seriously.

 

 

 

Anyway here's what I think:

 

 

 

Yeah, melee just got owned, what are you going to do about it? Rant your head off? That's cool because it won't solve anything unless Jagex notices. So you have 1, and only 1 option. You tell Jagex through RSOF and then stay away from the ditch. Simple. If Jagex decides that the Ditch is only a fair way to pk with range, then the hammer is down. Too bad too sad. If not, and Jagex does decide to make the Ditch un-rangeable, a) I'm gonna have to find a new place to train my range pures :lol: , and B) You can throw a party in your victory.

 

 

 

So my view: Deal with it until it's fixed.

[Pikmin_Warrior]

Oi, this has gone from a civilized arguement to a miniature flame war. -.-

 

 

 

Days like these make me wonder whats happened to the averages scapers IQ.

[brando13a]

One of the few people who actually sees the problem, and still knows there's nothing we can do, cookies for zaaps.

 

 

 

@Muddybob- look, your argument is weak, you're trying to justify rangers being the top of a pyramid of 3 builds, rather than a corner of the combat triangle. Melee>range>mage>melee.

 

 

 

Nobody wins, because they all have a weakness. Rangers are supposed to loose, statistically speaking, to melee, likewise melee should loose to mage, and mage to range.

 

 

 

Saying that this is fair because it gives rangers a way to consistently thwart melee, while literally taking no risk whatsoever, just shows you dont see past the fact that you just want to win. It's not a bad way to be, headstrong can take you places, but in a discussion over whether or not this is an abuse or not, you dont stand a chance and you just waste your opinion on it.

 

 

 

It is a problem, it wont be fixed for a while, so use it while you can if you want to, personally I just stay away from the wilderness ditch altogether, swarms of people are a hoot, but I prefer taking out single travelers.. just me.

 

 

 

So, just accept that this isnt something that was intended, its not like ANY other ranged obstacle, cow pens effectively trap the ranger if they cant take out the person fast enough. It was a shortsighted move on Jagex's part to keep the ditch, but really its just a haven for rangers/mages and is best avoided by anyone who doesnt take a bow/runes with them.

 

 

 

@pikmin_warrior- Sometimes flaming cant be helped, self restraint has no real benefit on the internet, as we are all effectively just masked, anonymous strangers shouting our opinions in hopes that others will follow in suit to what we think. IQ may be high or low, but as long as nobody knows who you are, you have no consequence for what you do or say.

[Kirtash]

I dont really see what the big deal is; if you just need to go to the wilderness, then you dont need to kill that one ranger who is shooting you from the ditch, just walk away, and if he follows you, fight back, whatever.

 

 

 

if you just felt like fighting near the ditch, get over the fact that there may be a ranger who is goint to use that trick, and get a strategy to beat him (freeze him, attack him, repeat, whatever) or use, god forbid, range to fight back.

 

 

 

Edit: oh, and, you know, we have PVP WORLDS, yeah WORLDS, you can go pking EVERYWHERE, do you NEED to go to the ditch if you are a meleer? FFS.

[Muddybob]

@Muddybob- look, your argument is weak, you're trying to justify rangers being the top of a pyramid of 3 builds, rather than a corner of the combat triangle. Melee>range>mage>melee.

 

 

 

Nobody wins, because they all have a weakness. Rangers are supposed to loose, statistically speaking, to melee, likewise melee should loose to mage, and mage to range.

 

 

 

Saying that this is fair because it gives rangers a way to consistently thwart melee, while literally taking no risk whatsoever, just shows you dont see past the fact that you just want to win. It's not a bad way to be, headstrong can take you places, but in a discussion over whether or not this is an abuse or not, you dont stand a chance and you just waste your opinion on it.

 

 

 

It is a problem, it wont be fixed for a while, so use it while you can if you want to, personally I just stay away from the wilderness ditch altogether, swarms of people are a hoot, but I prefer taking out single travelers.. just me.

 

 

 

So, just accept that this isnt something that was intended, its not like ANY other ranged obstacle, cow pens effectively trap the ranger if they cant take out the person fast enough. It was a shortsighted move on Jagex's part to keep the ditch, but really its just a haven for rangers/mages and is best avoided by anyone who doesnt take a bow/runes with them.

 

 

 

I never said I was trying to put them at the top. I'm saying that they have an advantage, they should use it. It's like any other weapon. It's their version of an Elysian or Arcane shield.

 

The combat triangle is already messed up enough. Changing this one will make it even worse. Melee-ers don't get whooped by magic, they get overpowered by melee. The wizard ice barrages, the melee-er puts on range armor and fights back when they go up to MELEE. It's not a triangle anymore, it's a dot, melee. Magic only works in large numbers or when mixed with melee. Range only works with either using safespots such as this or using void and hoping to 1-hit the enemy with a good Dbow special.

 

It isn't a consistent way to thwart melee, I could probably land one or two hits on them while using pro range to cover myself from the gist of the attacks. I do see the fact, I'm just saying that it is a stupid subject to argue about, and I'm trying my best to explain why I believe this is the way to go. I don't expect you to listen at all, knowing that most of TIF is full of thickheads. But if you prompt a response I will gladly give you one.

[brando13a]

Your example of a melee'er switching to range gear to stop magic from being effective is... well exactly what people SHOULD do, but it also proves my point completely, MAGE destroys melee, thats WHY you switch to range gear, because range>mage.

 

 

 

carrying all 3 kinds of equipment is a smart move, it allows you to fight anyone, any way, no matter what. Sure it cuts back on food/potions, but you can do anything.

 

 

 

If you see that this is an abuse problem, then why do you insist that it isnt? you're right, its not something that should be argued, yet here we are. I see the full validity of range having landscape to their advantage, however if that means that they can have 0 risk of dieing, or even being damaged, that's a problem.

 

 

 

I dont think it will be fixed with any great haste, but I imagine it will be fixed eventually. As I've said at least 3 times, the ditch is NOTHING like the cow pens, or any other fence for that matter. Yes its tactical, yes its smart, yes its real world, but it isnt balanced in the game world, comparing the two isnt a fair thing to do either, as the game has as many limitations as it does real world impossibilities.

 

 

 

Not really sure what else to say, just trying to the point across that this isnt something Jagex gave to rangers, its something rangers discovered and took hold of. Jagex definitly didnt intend for this, I know that much, so dont assume that it's a necessary improvement to rangers, and that removing it will make them all useless everywhere they go.