I was thinking last evening after reading this stuff (which is very good!!).

 

If the Mahjarrat have the ability to shapeshift:

 

Couldn't it be that the Mahjarrat and the 'dragonkin' (for which we have no true name, yet...) are one and the same?

 

 

 

Evidence:

 

 

 

- they both come from the North (Frenaskrae)

 

0 the Mahjarrat we encountered are all moving north (Frenaskrae?), as if something big is going to happen and we know the 'dragonkin' might show themselves in the upcoming quest

 

- both are linked to the Dragon Weapons and Armour in one way or another

 

- they know about the Stone of Jas, and the Staff of Armadyl, which are artefacts of divine power

 

 

 

On the wyrms:

 

 

 

in the lore of Tolkien (LotR), Wyrms were very long, winged dragons. the Wyrm familiar might be a lesser wyrm, having no wings. I have seen parts of the lord of LotR already in RS (Tomb of Glariel, Glariel sounds a lot like Galadriel, is an example) so it could be that JaGEx took some more info (it's logically, as Tolkien is one of the greatest British fantasy-writer's)

im glad to see you took my suggestion and added a soul's bane to your post! (i actually helped out for once!)

 

i wouldve gotten the pics for you but i finished the quest.

 

 

 

While doing another quest i found that their was another sort of 'rift' in the desert, i didnot investigate due to lack of water however i think this could be another 'farm'.

 

Here it is:

 

 

And here is the Soul's Bane rift:

 

 

 

 

They both appear same on the map so it is possible they r both related.

i'm pretty shure that this 'north' is not Freneskae, since it's another dimension. Interesting theory about the Dragonkin=Mahjarrat though.

 

 

 

Speaking of LOTR, the Wyrm in BFME 2 is some sort of a big snake that can tunnel and has half his body underground. I have never seen any wings on it.

 

 

 

im glad to see you took my suggestion and added a soul's bane to your post! (i actually helped out for once!)

 

i wouldve gotten the pics for you but i finished the quest.

 

 

 

While doing another quest i found that their was another sort of 'rift' in the desert, i didnot investigate due to lack of water however i think this could be another 'farm'.

 

...

 

They both appear same on the map so it is possible they r both related.

 

 

The rift in the desert is the Evil Genie's cave from Spirits of the Elid quest. No connection

 

 

 

(this quoting shure is complicated for a forum newb)

@ misterknowitall

 

 

 

the Wyrm power in BFME 2 is a lesser wyrm I think.

 

the Wyrms I was talking about are talked about in The Hobbit. In LotR itself they are commonly referred to as dragons, however dragons are a more smaller, fatter so to say, form of the winged lizards.

 

Also, the Western view of dragons is mostly the 'fat' form. The long 'eely' ones are mostly more Far-eastern (China/Japan).

 

 

 

Another note on the difference from dragons and wyrm's: most (fantasy) sources I know about describe dragons as later, weaker descendants from the Wyrm's. JaGEx is probably just following this trend I guess.

Now that you mention it.

 

 

 

Here's what the RS wikipedia has to say about wyrms: (it's interesting)

 

 

 

The Wyrms are the ancient ancestors of dragons that went extinct several thousand years ago. Due to evolution and heavy involvement in the God Wars, wyrms no longer exist.

 

 

 

Wyrms were far stronger than dragons, and were often used as riding animals in the God Wars. A single wyrm was capable of destroying massive cities and wiping out entire armies, making them invaluable assets to those that were able to tame them. This was not an easy task, though; wyrms were incredibly difficult to control, and those that rode them, the Dragon Riders, were highly valued by their masters. They were even used by Zaros as personal bodyguards.

 

 

 

By the end of the God Wars, the wyrms' heavy involvement in combat had left their race decimated. With little prey remaining, climate shifts occuring in many locations, and perhaps other unknown changes, the few remaining wyrms evolved into the dragons that inhabit Gielinor today. Some, however, did not fully evolve, such as the Brutal Green Dragons that inhabit the Ancient Cavern beneath Baxtorian Falls.

 

 

 

 

 

So this says that Brutal Green Dragons are still part Wyvern. This could mean there might be 'fuller' Wyvern hiding in that place.

As to the point of the Brutal Green Dragons, I concur, and there might indeed be less evolved Wyrm's. I think that they will be hiding further beneath the ground, near the planets core (if Gielinor is round of course) because of the need of heat.

 

 

 

however, that there might be true Wyrm's, no. Maybe Brutal Blue/Red/Black Dragons, and possibly Addamant and Rune Dragons might be released in the future, but Wyrm's are extinct. I do not think that the Gods are in any way allowed to revive an extinct species due to the Decrees of Guthix (although half the world of Gielinor is trying to find mazes in the decree's which seems to be successfull in some parts)

 

 

 

And for my previous point that the Mahjarrat and 'dragonkin' are moving north, they might have another interpretation of directions. I never really read the tales about them, but both groups are amassing at a central place.

 

 

 

We should really look into the Mahjarrat = dragonkin thing I think...

We need some recent transcripts of A Tail of Two Cats to check the age of the events.

 

If we assume that it happened during the fourth age, then the Dragonkin have not been mentioned before that right?

 

This could mean that after the third age, the Mahjarrat took on a new body (=Dragonkin) to hide (from Saradominists perhaps).

 

 

 

Some more evidence comes from Zanaris. The fairy in Zanaris marketplace mentions D weapons came from Freneskae, this might mean Dragonkin and Mahjarrat both come from Freneskae, but it is never mentionned that both arrived togheter when Icthlarin brought them to Gielinor.

 

 

 

The fact that Wyrms are extinct is just because no living (or dead) NPC has seen them in thousands of years. They might be assumed extinct just like the Dragonkin

We should look at the moments of first sightings. I think that the 4th age is the most logically, as it is the most recent addition about first sightings of the dragonkin, thus, the most acceptable imo.

 

 

 

Also, in Tail of Two Cats, it is seen that the dragonkin use magic, and we know the Mahjarrat can use magic. The dragonfire is probably the source of the name 'dragonkin', as dragon's were sighted before the 'dragonkin', weren't they?

 

 

 

And then, the creation of dragon's. Could this been done with the Stone of Jas? We know it has magical properties, capable enough of creating the first runestones. If it indeed was in the hands of the dragonkin, they could have created the Dragon Forge with it. And the Mahjarrat went in hiding but would have needed protection so they wouldn't be discovered.

 

 

 

Here comes the dungeon of Tolna. If someone happens to stumble upon your hiding place, a trap like this dungeon is nearly flawless, the only point of weakness is outter influence (we, the player) as seen in the quest. A person's emotes can be read and be played on by powerfull magical beings or beings with strong magical powers. The dragonkin and Mahjarrat both have powerfull magic to their disposal. Lucien has Mind Control and Zemouregal has Necromancy. It is very well possible that another Mahjarrat has the ability to read emotions and minds and can create dungeons to trap living beings in these places. The only way to escape is to defeat your emotions, but this is extremely hard for any person, especially if they are continually confronted with them.

Out of the evidence in this tread it is more likely that Tolna's dungeon was created by Zaros (or His influence), since the digsite was formerly known as Senntisten and it was a Zarosian temple.

 

 

 

EDIT: GRANDMASTER QUEST IS HERE!

 

not enough herblore and mage though

Yes, it is indeed a stronghold (or was rather) of Zaros. However, the Mahjarrat where followers of Zaros, might have been impressed by the Wyrm's and changed form after his defeat to creatures alike the Wyrm's, and Zamorak was the Mahjarrat who originally stabbed Zaros with the Staff of Armadyl, effectively banishing Zaros from the realm and becoming a God himself. This might have lead to the abandonment of strongholds formerly held by Zaros, and these might have been taken by Mahjarrat.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! GRANDMASTER QUEST FTW! ( I hope it will answer some questions :P)

 

 

 

Aw bugger... can't check any news from this place where I am now... guess I have to wait 3 more hours =(

yay grandmaster quest... not enough thieving/defence/farming/herblore/magic/quest points though...

 

i hoped it would be like recipe for disaster...

 

 

 

it's being spoiled by spoiler time!

Erm, a small bit of info that might help;

 

When people where discussing the matter of dragon breeding...I searched EVREYWHERE on the runescape Wikia about dragons.

 

I found that there IS indeed ATLEAST one female Dragon...She even has a name.

 

Her name, is Elvarg.

 

 

 

[hide=]House,

 

 

 

Ack, the world is a better place since yer dispatched that great firebreathing brute. She wouldn't 'a had second thoughts about roasting yer with her breath and tuckin' in to an adventurer supper. That's what she done to Crandor, after all...

 

 

 

Did I ever force yer to kill her for me? I remember you coming to me with yer little sword held high and a malicious gleam in yer eye! I hope yer little boycott brings the mighty' Elvarg back to life but I don't think it's going to work meself.

 

 

 

You want to blame me? Well that's just fine and dandy, but I think if you want to find the real culprit here ya might want to look at yerself.

 

 

 

Happy dragon huntin'!

 

Oziach[/hide]

 

 

 

And I think this gives proof that Dragonkin might be the only creatures that can reincarnate.

 

 

 

--Small update--

 

 

 

I looked around the runescape website, and searched for Dragonkin.

 

 

 

WARNING: (small) SPOILER!

 

 

 

[hide=]What of the ancient power of the Mahjarrat and the dragonkin? Has something been missed?[/hide]

 

 

 

As said in the Introduction of the ''Master quest''.

 

 

 

Here we go; even more evidence that the Dragonkin still exists.

 

As said in the wikia:

 

 

 

[hide=]Dragonkin - Despite having nearly driven to extinction by Robert the Strong in the First Age, some texts speak of the Dragonkin existing all the way into the Fourth Age. The Dragonkin's mastery of wyrms made them major threats to every race they came in contact with, and were it not for the costant intervention of the gods, it is possible that they could have been victorious in the God Wars.[/hide]

well the quest is here, for teh few people who can do the quest it's time for them to find out more about the dragonkin

I'll be doing the quest over the next few days (if it takes that long) and I'll be taking very thorough notes of anything dragonkin related. As such, no new updates will be added to the thread for however long it takes to finish, and no quest related updates at all until Monday, November 30th 8am CST (GMT -6). Yes that's right, 12am doesn't count because I still consider that part of Sunday ;)

Aha! The dragonkin's mastery of wyrms!

 

 

 

With all the similarities between the dragonkin and mahjarat... Freneskrae, same love of bloodshed, mahjarat being shapeshifters, etc etc, surely there must be some connection? I mentioned this a while back but it didn't seem to get any serious consideration ( :( ) but more people seem to be taking interest now ( \ )

 

 

 

I suggested earlier that perhaps the mahjarat are some kind of dragonkin nobility or elite? Or the other way round? It seems a bit strange that the dragonkin, being apparently so similar, are different shapes of the mahjarat? Why would the mahjarat suddenly make themselves all look identical? Also, there are only a few mahjarat but judging by the number of dragon anvils, it looks like there were a lot of dragonkin, so where have these extras come from? I reckon that the mahjarat may have been dragonkin nobility, like dragonkin but with more power and command over the other dragonkin.

 

 

 

"The dragonkin's mastery of wyrms" (sorry, forgot the quote). The dragonriders, who rode wyrms, were revered as Zaros and Zamorak's personal body guards. Considering that the dragonkin may very well have been dragonriders and that the mahjarat follow only zaros and zamorak, it suggests that the mahjarat may have used the dragonkin to help their masters.

 

 

 

I think it's time to take a serious look at this suggestion and the links between the mahjarat and dragonkin and any similarities between them. After all, is the picture from tail of two cats the only image we have of the dragonkin?

I'm currently 62/65 herblore, and I'm going to be making super attack potions for 65. I needed some money so I sold some stuff in my bank. One of the things I sold were some super attack potions I already had. Now the GE time limit has kicked in and I can't buy any more super attack potion raw materials (irit leaves or eyes of newts) for, I assume, 4 hours

I'm currently 62/65 herblore, and I'm going to be making super attack potions for 65. I needed some money so I sold some stuff in my bank. One of the things I sold were some super attack potions I already had. Now the GE time limit has kicked in and I can't buy any more super attack potion raw materials (irit leaves or eyes of newts) for, I assume, 4 hours

 

 

 

Make other potions :P

I'm currently 62/65 herblore, and I'm going to be making super attack potions for 65. I needed some money so I sold some stuff in my bank. One of the things I sold were some super attack potions I already had. Now the GE time limit has kicked in and I can't buy any more super attack potion raw materials (irit leaves or eyes of newts) for, I assume, 4 hours

 

 

 

Make other potions :P

 

 

 

I'd like to but I'm rather poor, which is why I had to sell so much! Super attack potions are just about all I can afford to make :oops:

I'm currently 62/65 herblore, and I'm going to be making super attack potions for 65. I needed some money so I sold some stuff in my bank. One of the things I sold were some super attack potions I already had. Now the GE time limit has kicked in and I can't buy any more super attack potion raw materials (irit leaves or eyes of newts) for, I assume, 4 hours

 

 

 

Make other potions :P

 

 

 

I'd like to but I'm rather poor, which is why I had to sell so much! Super attack potions are just about all I can afford to make :oops:

 

 

 

Mmm, yeah that is the annoying part with Herblore. I think it's taking me 600k+ loss for a level now. :wall:

I'm currently 62/65 herblore, and I'm going to be making super attack potions for 65. I needed some money so I sold some stuff in my bank. One of the things I sold were some super attack potions I already had. Now the GE time limit has kicked in and I can't buy any more super attack potion raw materials (irit leaves or eyes of newts) for, I assume, 4 hours

 

 

 

Make other potions :P

 

 

 

I'd like to but I'm rather poor, which is why I had to sell so much! Super attack potions are just about all I can afford to make :oops:

 

 

 

Mmm, yeah that is the annoying part with Herblore. I think it's taking me 600k+ loss for a level now. :wall:

 

 

 

We can thank skill capes for this :D

dragonkin symbol looks like compass..and there is x in middle of it..and center of the runescape is FALADORS CASTLE! \ maybe there was abandoned castle in falador many ages ago..and humans just reconstruct it..hehe just stubid idea..

dragonkin symbol looks like compass..and there is x in middle of it..and center of the runescape is FALADORS CASTLE! \ maybe there was abandoned castle in falador many ages ago..and humans just reconstruct it..hehe just stubid idea..

 

 

 

Are you sure? It would think it's the Observatory.

 

 

 

If Runescape is a perfect coordinate plane (meaning the same area in all 4 quadrants), then the center would be 0.0 North, 0.0 East, in other words, the center of the Observatory.

 

 

 

Although I'm not looking at the map, so I don't know for sure.

[hide=Spoiler about the quest?][/hide]

 

 

 

[hide=Yet another spoiler?]

 

 

 

That orb, those claws look like Dragonkin claws. :) This is in the Mithril Door by the way.[/hide]

[hide=Response to Spoiler]Yay the mith door is open!![/hide]