The Gaza Strip

[lordkafei]

 

Let me ask you a question, how can the West actively seek to promote the spread of democracy and then change the rules when somebody they don't like is elected? Don't get me wrong I don't condone or support Hamas but when they got in power the Quartet (USA, UN, EU & Russia) suddenly changes what it does to help the Palestinian people. It's complete blackmail - "we'll give you aid and the tax money that your people raise but only if you elect who we want."

 

 

 

I edited my post above that partially addresses this.

 

 

 

I agree - if the Palestinians want to empower Hamas, they have the right to elect them. But that doesn't give Hamas carte blanche to lob mortars into Israel without repercussions.

 

 

 

If you elect a group that pursues jihad against Israel, you should not then be surprised when that jihad comes back home to you.

 

 

 

All Hamas is accomplishing by this behavior is showing the world that it is indeed the terrorist organization it has been painted to be.

 

 

 

EDIT - More pearls of wisdom from Hamas:

 

 

 

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.

 

 

 

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

 

 

 

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

 

 

 

After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

[Ginger_Warrior]

All Hamas is accomplishing by this behavior is showing the world that it is indeed the terrorist organization it has been painted to be.

 

And what exactly are the Israelis doing, if not actively spreading terror across the Gaza strip, much like it's never stopped doing for the last forty years?

[magekillr]

All Hamas is accomplishing by this behavior is showing the world that it is indeed the terrorist organization it has been painted to be.

 

 

 

Painted by whom? Last I heard, the rest of the world ignored the US' plea to label them a terrorist organization. The only ones labeling them a terrorist organization is the US and Israel (possibly a few other countries thrown in, but for the most part that's it). The EU declined such a label in 2006, and I suspect them to do the same again.

 

 

 

Where do you draw the line when you label places terrorist organizations? The largest terrorist organization by these definitions continues to be the United States and Israel. I mean, Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a beacon of light when it comes to peace, the US is great buddies with them, and actively gives them weapons. I'm just speculating here, but I think the Saudis are the ones arming Al Qaeda.

 

 

 

You think this is justified? Israel just bombed a University:

 

 

 

Israeli air force jets have bombed the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip, a significant cultural symbol for Hamas.

 

 

 

Warplanes also struck Hamas government offices as air raids aimed at forcing Palestinian militants to halt rocket fire into southern Israel continued.

 

 

 

Palestinian medics say nearly 300 people have been killed in the air raids that began on Saturday.

 

 

 

Israel has threatened to launch a ground assault and is now calling up 6,500 army reservists.

 

 

 

Witnesses in Gaza said they saw six separate air strikes on the Islamic University just after midnight, followed by smoke and flames, Associated Press (AP) news agency reported.

 

 

 

The university is a centre of support for Hamas - the Islamist militant group which controls the Gaza Strip. Many of its top officials graduated from there.

 

 

 

A BBC journalist in Gaza said the university authorities had evacuated the campus a few days ago as they had been expecting a strike.

 

 

 

Disproportionate bombing any area is going to incite hatred towards Israel, but to bomb a University with students? That's just asking for more terrorist recruitment.

[Wallettheif]

I hear those Palestinians are getting brutally raped by those planes. It has to really suck when planes bomb and kill all of your family members even if you didn't do anything.

[RichieMcD]

I can understand Israel acting in Self-Defense, but the way they're going about it is sickening. If they were actually taking care of where they're bombing and how they're going about there wouldn't be a civilian casualty rate of 300 people so far.

 

 

 

They might kill a couple of insignificant Hamas militants, but Israel has just given Hamas the greatest victory they could wish for, propaganda to recruit further militants on mass.

 

 

 

I find it amazing though how Condaleeza Rice can approve of Israels actions, right now I'd consider Israel to be terrorists in this situation.

[lordkafei]

Painted by whom? Last I heard, the rest of the world ignored the US' plea to label them a terrorist organization. The only ones labeling them a terrorist organization is the US and Israel (possibly a few other countries thrown in, but for the most part that's it). The EU declined such a label in 2006, and I suspect them to do the same again.

 

 

 

 

This is a variant of the argument by numbers fallacy - but I will indulge you.

 

 

 

Canada - ref: Public Safety Canada

 

EU - ref: Official Journal of the European Union

 

Japan - ref: Bluebook

 

Australia - ref: Australian National Security

 

UK - ref: Home Office

[magekillr]

Painted by whom? Last I heard, the rest of the world ignored the US' plea to label them a terrorist organization. The only ones labeling them a terrorist organization is the US and Israel (possibly a few other countries thrown in, but for the most part that's it). The EU declined such a label in 2006, and I suspect them to do the same again.

 

 

 

 

This is a variant of the argument by numbers fallacy - but I will indulge you.

 

 

 

Canada - ref: Public Safety Canada

 

EU - ref: Official Journal of the European Union

 

Japan - ref: Bluebook

 

Australia - ref: Australian National Security

 

UK - ref: Home Office

 

 

 

My mistake, I was confusing Hezbollah with Hamas when it came to the EU rejecting the terrorist organization label. I had remembered a 2005 or 2006 resolution signed by 200 odd members of Congress to label Hezbollah a terrorist organization; I confused it with Hamas.

 

 

 

Nonetheless, I broke no fallacy.

[The Dark Lord]

Send in the Zohan!

 

 

 

[ThurinEthir]

I can understand Israel acting in Self-Defense, but the way they're going about it is sickening. If they were actually taking care of where they're bombing and how they're going about there wouldn't be a civilian casualty rate of 300 people so far.

 

 

Agreed. Israel is starting to cross the line.

 

I admit, I'm not fully caught up to date on the situation, so I can't really comment much more. Though my classmate is in Israel right now. :|

[BlueLancer]

Take a look at jewish organisations like Neturei Karta http://www.nkusa.org/

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before people turn anti-semitic, it's good to remember Israel doesn't "represent" jews. It's a state with it's own interests and profits in mind, and like shown in Gaza, it also occupies foreign territories & makes life hell for over 1 million people.

 

 

 

I'd expect Obama to still support Israel, but to a lesser extent... Why is every atrocity they commit being watched through the fingers? Hamas rocket shelling, which barely even causes injuries most of the time, doesn't even remotely compare to the damage Israel does and the civilians they kill every month

 

 

 

When you hear Israel massacring yet more civilians, it's not all the jews collectively doing it. There are jews who hate the State of Israel just as much as the palestinians and some western people do, it doesn't mean they hate the jewish *people*.

[1_man_army]

Take a look at jewish organisations like Neturei Karta http://www.nkusa.org/

 

 

 

[hide=][/hide]

 

 

 

Before people turn anti-semitic, it's good to remember Israel doesn't "represent" jews. It's a state with it's own interests and profits in mind, and like shown in Gaza, it also occupies foreign territories & makes life hell for over 1 million people.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

When you hear Israel massacring yet more civilians, it's not all the jews collectively doing it. There are jews who hate the State of Israel just as much as the palestinians and some western people do, it doesn't mean they hate the jewish *people*.

 

 

 

I was looking for that organisation last night but I couldn't remember its name. I totally agree though that we should be clear when talking about Israel and Jewish people, not all Jews are or support what Israel has done or is doing. I think for my part in this post I have been very deliberate to say Israel and Israeli's, so lets all keep it that way as BlueLancer has said. I mean not even all Israeli's support what their government is doing.

[megakiller32]

All Hamas is accomplishing by this behavior is showing the world that it is indeed the terrorist organization it has been painted to be.

 

And what exactly are the Israelis doing, if not actively spreading terror across the Gaza strip, much like it's never stopped doing for the last forty years?

 

What possible interest do Israel want in the Gaza Strip? It's a thin piece of crappy desert land. If Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel, then they could coexist, albeit slightly hostile, but that can be worked out without a bunch of unevolved primates firing rockets about.

 

Also, someone whose name I forgot said they fire a couple of rockets.

 

Actually, a correct figure is more like 100. I know it's kind of hypocritical for me to not have a source quotation for this, but let me hunt it down...

[Ginger_Warrior]

Hamas were firing rockets into land which was previously Palestine's until Israel decided it was Israel's, and marched their armies into it. Since then, Israel has constantly pushed the issue, constantly seeking to portray all countries around it as hostile terrorist breeding hives that need cleaning with the US's aid. They're playing on the world's smallest violin.

 

 

 

I'm not an anti-Semite. Israel's response to these attacks are completely disproportionate, counter productive, and have only one purpose in mind: making sure its current government gets reelected so it can continue its Zionist agenda.

[Lateralus]

Israel's response to these attacks are completely disproportionate, counter productive, and have only one purpose in mind: making sure its current government gets reelected so it can continue its Zionist agenda.

 

 

 

Nail. Head.

[dangeresque]

Israel was justified to take some course of action, but definately not like this.

[LaserDude333]

To anyone who said they were hardly bombing us before this, you are completely wrong. For the past years people can't even leave their homes in fear of getting killed by a rocket, that's why we attacked.

 

Our government gave the Palestinians the Gaza strip to try and achieve more peace, but all we got is rockets flying towards us.

 

 

 

And it's not as if we're targeting universities and such, we're targeting smuggling tunnels and hamas bases.

 

I do think this is a bit extreme though.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Our government gave the Palestinians the Gaza strip to try and achieve more peace, but all we got is rockets flying towards us.

 

Oh, how nice of you. Given it was their land in the first place until Europe got a guilt trip over the Holocaust.

[BlueLancer]

 

Our government gave the Palestinians the Gaza strip to try and achieve more peace, but all we got is rockets flying towards us.

 

 

 

Not to be nitpicking or anything, but Israel doesn't originally own any land. While some of it was legally *bought* prior to the formation of the state, a lot of it was illegally confiscated from the arabs living in those areas, who were in turn forced to flee their own farmlands and homes

[LaserDude333]

No... The Europeans didn't give us the gaza strip, we conquered it in the 6 day war in 1967.

 

And I can argue that it was our lands before that.

[1_man_army]

No... The Europeans didn't give us the gaza strip, we conquered it in the 6 day war in 1967.

 

And I can argue that it was our lands before that.

 

 

 

Are you really prepared to take this down the religious fundamentalist route? That argument (from both sides) is what has gotten this to where we are today - "our book says it's our land" "but our book says that it's ours." :roll:

 

 

 

On the subject of rockets, maybe they would have stopped if Israel had ended the blockade of Gaza as it promised in the ceasefire agreement that ran out in October.

[Sly_Wizard]

Words can't really describe how angry I was when I heard of this.

 

 

 

It's genocide. Not on a Hitler-scale, but nonetheless, I cannot think of any other appropriate noun.

 

 

 

Genocide. Right.

 

 

 

It's not like Israel hasn't had to deal with well over 3,000 (Yes, that a 3 followed by a comma and three zeros) rockets being fired onto Israeli cities-- The most of those coming AFTER Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip-- Or suicide bomber after suicide bomber blowing up civilians.

 

 

 

Nope. Israel is guilty of genocide.

 

 

 

...And on a totally related note, I actually find the hypocrisy of some European nations to be supremely out of this world-- Especially in the UK. One little terrorist attack (Which, in actuality, totally pales in comparison to those which Israel constantly has to deal with), and everyone is ready to go kill them some terrorists for attacking innocent people without mention of "human rights". But when Israel goes on the war path to defend themselves from CONSTANT attacks by a regime whose stated goal is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth (See: Hamas Charter), everyone wants to scream foul? I don't think so. Israel can do what it wishes for as long as Hamas and every other Arab state refuses to acknowledge it exists and refuses to make a true peace with them. It's not rocket science.

 

 

 

Oh, and the British gave the land to Israel as per the Mandate of Palestine in 1946 (I believe it was), which was created at the end of WWI.

[Ginger_Warrior]

It's not like Israel hasn't had to deal with well over 3,000 (Yes, that a 3 followed by a comma and three zeros) rockets being fired onto Israeli cities-- The most of those coming AFTER Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip-- Or suicide bomber after suicide bomber blowing up civilians.

 

Do you know how many people in Israel died in the days following the renunciation of the cease fire? Was it anywhere near 320, 30 of whom children, as is the current UN estimate?

 

 

 

Hamas should not have launched those rockets. There are peaceful ways to a solution. I cannot possibly see any way the scale of the Israeli response is justified.

 

 

 

Oh, and the British gave the land to Israel.

 

Point being?

[LaserDude333]

It's not like Israel hasn't had to deal with well over 3,000 (Yes, that a 3 followed by a comma and three zeros) rockets being fired onto Israeli cities-- The most of those coming AFTER Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip-- Or suicide bomber after suicide bomber blowing up civilians.

 

Do you know how many people in Israel died in the days following the renunciation of the cease fire? Was it anywhere near 320, 30 of whom children, as is the current UN estimate?

 

That's because they put their military bases in the middle of a city and they probably don't even have bomb shelters. We have rooms built to withstand rockets in every house. The civilians just can't protect themselves.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and the British gave the land to Israel as per the Mandate of Palestine in 1946 (I believe it was), which was created at the end of WWI.

 

Yes, but that's unrelated, we got conquered the gaza strip in 1967.

[assassin_696]

Call me an idealist but surely Israel must realise that by responding to force with force it's only generating further hatred and masses of young Muslims willing to martyr themselves? [bleep] for tat would be bad enough, but responding with the ferocity that it has is just overkill and bordering on war crimes. A new strategy is needed that isn't based on retribution. But I suppose that wouldn't be politically desirable.

[RichieMcD]

 

What possible interest do Israel want in the Gaza Strip? It's a thin piece of crappy desert land. If Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel, then they could coexist, albeit slightly hostile, but that can be worked out without a bunch of unevolved primates firing rockets about.

 

Also, someone whose name I forgot said they fire a couple of rockets.

 

Actually, a correct figure is more like 100. I know it's kind of hypocritical for me to not have a source quotation for this, but let me hunt it down...

 

 

 

It will be decades if even more before they can "peacefully" coexist considering the circumstances and the history involved. Compare it to Northern Ireland, land seized from it's inhabitants and formed into a new country.

 

 

 

The land was seized over 400 years ago, it's been an official country for 86 years yet there is still so much hate there. The inter-paramilitary trouble might have stopped but there is still so much hate there among all social classes, predominately the impoverished working class.

 

 

 

If Israel stopped doing the exact same, firing rockets and air-striking Gaza they would be closer to a somewhat peaceful co-exsistance but that will never happen in the foreseeable future. The only thing Israel is doing is giving Hamas a huge propaganda boost when the Gaza citizens seeing their homes destroyed and friends / associates killed through Israeli attacks.

 

 

 

Find me a figure showing how many rockets Hamas has fired and how many citizen deaths have occurred as a result, then I might change my opinion on Israel for now.

 

 

 

Sly, give me one valid reason why Israel should be recognized as an official country (even though it already is) considering they went in and took the land from the Palestinian citizens through force and then created their own country. They stole that land from it's rightful owners, why should it be recognized as a country?