The Gaza Strip

[magekillr]

The demonstrators chanted slogans such as "Tzahala residents, there's a murderer in your neighborhood," and raised signs calling on the government to "put a stop to the murder of civilians" and stating, "Halutz is a killer, the intifada shall prevail." Activists also shouted, "neighbors, ask Halutz why he's killing children and how many."

 

 

 

Dana Olmert, the daughter of Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, also took part in the demonstration.

 

 

 

So, is Dana Olmert an antisemite? I've heard Olmert's wife disagrees with him politically, as well.

 

 

 

Olmert had single digit approval ratings at one point, and over 60% of Israelis wanted him to resign for his handling of the 2006 Lebanon war. Kadima is none too popular. I don't believe that the majority of Israeli citizens endorse all of their state's actions (and that the majority DO support disengagement from Gaza and the West Bank). In my experience, most of the intransigent nationalism/unconditional support for Israel has been from those who live outside of Israel; at least in America.

[Matok]

Few responses

 

 

Kadima is none too popular.

 

 

Actually the Hamas was fool enough to play to Livni & Barak hands by starting this crisis.

 

Recent surveys shows an increased popularity of those two, which ,btw , isn't a bad thing if you consider the alternatives (Netanyahu)

 

 

 

 

..and that the majority DO support disengagement from Gaza and the West Bank

 

 

Sure we do.Israel's war against the Hamas, not the Palestinians(or Lebanese,or Iranians) and those are not just empty slogans.

 

Israel has no instrest in controling the Gaza strip,i assure you that, but we do have intrest in breaking the triangle (Ahmadinejad -Hezbollah - Hamas) and we do have intrest in seeing a reasonabile Palestinians goverment which will be willing to sit down and negotiate.

 

 

 

I find it wholesomely touching you treat those Palestinians with the contempt of a lame horse that needs putting down.

 

 

 

Those are human beings. To say you're protecting civilian life through your actions, and then to kill 400+ people in the process is ridiculous

 

 

 

It's that kind of discriminate attitude why I hold a lower opinion of Israel, the Palestinians are people like you and me. Nothing makes them anything less of a person purely because where they're from. You've lowered my opinion now of Israel further, well done.

 

 

 

Lets not forget that anyone who posts here represents his own personal opinion, not the country,the city or street he lives in.

 

 

 

Ginger, i read few of your posts here and i do think your heart is in the right place but, naturally, you cant see the whole picture.I can assure you that If you lived in Israel you would have see things differently.

 

After 60 years,we (Israelis) still can't take our existence here for granted. We still have to fight/kill/destroy inorder to make our neighbors accept our presence as a fact.

 

Thats why this attacks on Hamas(and on Lebanon in 2006) were crucial.

 

Sad to say that but this is how you negotiate in the middle-east. You need to punch in one hand before giving your other hand for peace. (btw in both cases the other side triggered the war)

 

 

 

One last thing, no one here enjoys seeing death of civilians.IDF is doing the best it can not to arm innocents but given the circumstances its almost impossible.

 

Still,reports says that 300+ of the deads are Hamas people, not civilians.

 

 

 

And thats the definitive truth,ruth.

[megakiller32]

 

One last thing, no one here enjoys seeing death of civilians.IDF is doing the best it can not to arm innocents but given the circumstances its almost impossible.

 

Still,reports says that 300+ of the deads are Hamas people, not civilians.

 

 

 

And thats the definitive truth,ruth.

 

 

 

That's probably the case but in the UK from all the different newspapers opinions, you get different reports. For example, the BBC say "400+ citizens" But people don't realise thats Hamas aswell..

[Barihawk]

 

One last thing, no one here enjoys seeing death of civilians.IDF is doing the best it can not to arm innocents but given the circumstances its almost impossible.

 

Still,reports says that 300+ of the deads are Hamas people, not civilians.

 

 

 

And thats the definitive truth,ruth.

 

 

 

That's probably the case but in the UK from all the different newspapers opinions, you get different reports. For example, the BBC say "400+ citizens" But people don't realise thats Hamas aswell..

 

 

 

People trust newspapers? They will print anything that sells.

 

 

 

Like I said earlier, they are trying to avoid civilian casualties but that is almost impossible when you are dealing with regimes like Hamas, who will place civilians at strategic sites and God knows convince those very civilians that they should be honored to be human shields.

 

 

 

I saw a report that the Hamas leader had been killed in an airstrike, is this true?

[Ginger_Warrior]

Ginger, i read few of your posts here and i do think your heart is in the right place but, naturally, you cant see the whole picture.I can assure you that If you lived in Israel you would have see things differently.

 

This is another attitude that winds me up about people living in Israel. The idea that nobody but the Israelis can possibly understand the situation in the Middle East, and therefore only the Israelis know what's best and what's acceptable.

 

 

 

Israel exists because of a British Mandate, and I've studied modern history in further education. I'm not ignorant, and I am perfectly capable of understanding a situation for myself.

 

 

 

After 60 years,we (Israelis) still can't take our existence here for granted. We still have to fight/kill/destroy inorder to make our neighbors accept our presence as a fact.

 

Thats why this attacks on Hamas(and on Lebanon in 2006) were crucial.

 

Oh, remind me, what exactly did you gain from the Lebonese conflict? Just how crucial was it?

 

 

 

One last thing, no one here enjoys seeing death of civilians.IDF is doing the best it can not to arm innocents but given the circumstances its almost impossible.

 

Then stop the war. There is no need for it. I too was also told that our actions in Iraq were in the interests of saving innocents lives, but I still opposed it.

 

 

 

Firstly, it's counter productive. Unless you go for total victory, this will increase the rocket attacks in correlation with sympathy for Hamas, not decrease them. It will also increase the levels of anti-Semitism in the Palestinian territories. Diplomatically, it makes Israel weaker since most countries in the area support the Palestinians.

 

 

 

The only way this helps the Israeli government is because fools like you think it's a wise course of action to pick wars which antagonise hostiles in an already volatile situation.

[Matok]

Some more responses

 

 

This is another attitude that winds me up about people living in Israel. The idea that nobody but the Israelis can possibly understand the situation in the Middle East, and therefore only the Israelis know what's best and what's acceptable..

 

Dunno about others but this Israeli,who studied Israel history in school, served in the IDF,been to the occipied teretories and in Lebanon during his service,and been consuming political articles probably back from the days you were an infant...yes..i know a bit more about the conflict.

 

 

 

 

Israel exists because of a British Mandate..

 

 

False,go read it from the begining, start with the Dreyfus Affair

 

 

 

Oh, remind me, what exactly did you gain from the Lebonese conflict? Just how crucial was it?.

 

Let me answer this with a simple question.

 

Why exactly Hezbollah attack this Israeli patrol, the attack which triggered the 2006 war?

 

Israel left Lebanon a while back (2000),so why?for the fun?because it can?

 

Now another question, why does Nassralla, the "hero" of 2006, is now sitting quietly and besides some whinings about the arab world not helping the "brothers", doesn't do anything?

 

I tell you why, because he learn the lesson, and learnt it well..

 

The Hezbollah,beside ruining the life for people living in north Israel has ruined Lebanon once a beatiful country.

 

 

 

One last note, this thread is not about the Israel-Palestinians conflict, its about morality.

 

In my opinion you cant claim you're more moral than the other without being in his place,or in similar situations.

 

 

 

And that's the unquestionable truth,ruth.

[LaserDude333]

 

I saw a report that the Hamas leader had been killed in an airstrike, is this true?

 

Yes, the IDF even warned the people in the same building as him to get out, but he didn't let them... Or something like that :-k .

[1_man_army]

 

I saw a report that the Hamas leader had been killed in an airstrike, is this true?

 

Yes, the IDF even warned the people in the same building as him to get out, but he didn't let them... Or something like that :-k .

 

 

 

It was a Hamas 'commander' (well one a few days ago and one yesterday as far as I recall) it wasn't Ismail Haniya or Khaled Mashal (the two major forces in Hamas).

 

 

 

edit - I just wanted to post this article from BBC website. I think it makes an interesting point regarding the coverage of this incident (particularly on the ban on foreign journalists in Gaza).

 

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 809371.stm

[RichieMcD]

If Israel is doing nothing "wrong" then why are they banning foreign journalists from Gaza? Any reputable news force will document it unbiasedly, and I for one like many will only listen to a reputable news force.

 

 

 

Just out of curiosity, is there any big protests going on in any posters cities in this topic? For the last 2 weekends many Islamic immigrants in Ireland have been holding rallies on Ireland's biggest main street. While walking by today they seemed extremely angry and hyped up about the situation. They were repeatadly shouting "Allah Akbar" over and over with other Islamic chants I didn't recognize.

 

 

 

Israel certainly is helping build Hamas propaganda when Muslims are rallying together in favor of Palestine in places as far away (And Islamic minority) as Ireland.

[1_man_army]

Israeli troops have entered Gaza, things just got worse.

 

 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1103314/Israeli-ground-forces-invade-Gaza-strip-day-increased-air-strikes.html

 

 

 

Kranked - theres been a few protests in Edinburgh, Glasgow as well as a pretty big one in London.

[Dizzle229]

These countries have been fighting forever. Eventually one will learn how to make nukes and get the supplies, and that will be that. For now, this is just one more war for them and it's nowhere near the last.

[1_man_army]

These countries have been fighting forever. Eventually one will learn how to make nukes and get the supplies, and that will be that. For now, this is just one more war for them and it's nowhere near the last.

 

 

 

Israel does have nuclear weapons.

[Dizzle229]

These countries have been fighting forever. Eventually one will learn how to make nukes and get the supplies, and that will be that. For now, this is just one more war for them and it's nowhere near the last.

 

 

 

Israel does have nuclear weapons.

 

 

 

 

 

Then they should use them. This isn't going to end the way it's going.

[1_man_army]

Yeah that is the way forward, lets start dropping nuclear bombs :roll: .

[ThurinEthir]

You do realize that the Gaza Strip is extremely small and narrow? I don't know the blast radius of Israel's nukes, but I'd imagine unless they hit a certain few targets, they would hurt themselves a bit.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a minimum distance a nuke can be fired. I obviously don't know where Israel stores their nukes, but the Gaza Strip could be too close.

[megakiller32]

Dropping a nuke would be a step too far :|

[magekillr]

Technically Israel "doesn't have any nuclear weapons" because they've never officially admitted to it. Everyone knows that they have them, but yeah lol, they've never come clean about it (to my knowledge anyway...I don't think they've admitted to it yet).

 

 

 

Nuclear weapons should never be used...ever. Far too many lives are lost, and most of them are civilian lives.

 

 

 

Speaking of nuclear weapons, and this is a tad off topic, I am curious how Obama plans to stop Iran's nuclear program even though Europe's done everything diplomatically possible. Although I could say it's never fully "exerted" itself, nor does it have the same leverage as the US. We shall see in 3 weeks, I suppose.

[Dizzle229]

You do realize that the Gaza Strip is extremely small and narrow? I don't know the blast radius of Israel's nukes, but I'd imagine unless they hit a certain few targets, they would hurt themselves a bit.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a minimum distance a nuke can be fired. I obviously don't know where Israel stores their nukes, but the Gaza Strip could be too close.

 

 

 

What? That's not what I meant. What I mean is if both countries still exist, they will keep fighting. The method doesn't matter. Nuke, conventional warfare, the point is this isn't coming to a peaceful end.

[lwilson100]

i believe Israel has every right to attack the Gaza strip, come on how many times has Israel been attack by its neighbors in the last 60 years, i personally believe Israel should already control the Gaza strip and all the other land Israel took in the Seven day war or was it the yom capor(spell fail).

[1_man_army]

Israel hasn't given back all the land from 1967 war, in fact Khaled Mashal (Hamas' leader in exile) has been quoted (last year I think) saying that if Israel went back to it's pre-1967 borders it would be a realistic aim [1]. It isn't just Palestinian land that Israel still has from that war either, the Golan Heights is still a big area of disagreement between Israel and Syria.

 

 

 

[1]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-softens-israel-stance-in-calls-for-palestinian-state-431624.html

[Yomyth105]

Wow... so much has been discussed here while i was away from tif. I have browsed through a few post on this topic and i just want to share my opinions.

 

 

 

1) I think it is one of those he said, she said thing. Hamas will blame Israel and Israel will blame Hamas. Nobody knows the truth and nobody really knows who started it. If it is true that Hamas were the first to bomb Israel, but killed a few people then it is the fault of Hamas and Israel has the right to fight against them.

 

 

 

2) "Israel doesnt refer to the jews but the state" > true, but why would Hamas want Israel. it has really nothing much to offer. it is that they hate the jews and want to kick their [wagon]. its basically their religion or like a long lasting feud.

 

 

 

3) If it is true that Hamas started ... why r u firing rockets over the border ??? unless u r trying to kill innocent ppl then there really is no legit reason. doesnt matter how many ppl u kill. 2 or thousands there should be some kind of retaliation and Hamas got what they deserve. Israel is small and if they r being attacked they r pretty much forced to expand and be on the offensive no? The crap that Israel has always gotten from them has been horrendous and why should they wait a few more days when more people are killed.

 

 

 

4) Hamas killed a few ppl so that Israel would go berserk and invade and the whole world would look at them as the "bad guys" What better time to do it while Bush is going out and Obama is stepping in. And for Rice: good job by still supporting Israel.

 

 

 

Overview: Israel had the right to invade them and kick their [wagon], hopefully teaching them a lesson because it always happens that Israelis die and Pakistan (and however) gets away with it. A peace treaty is negotiated and again Pakistan (or however) breaks it. Israel had a right to invade and kick their [wagon]. What will happen? same as usual they will be a peace treaty and life will go on when again they will fight israel who will again defend themselves.

[Kriegsmier]

To bring up a quote from page 1...because thats all i care to read...

 

 

 

If the US and other countries get involved, it could escalate into a too big war, so it's risky business.

 

But they had it coming, all year long HAMAS fire rockets into Israel, and expect to get away with it. Israel warned them enough is enough, and so I believe they're justified in the air strikes.

 

 

 

I seriously doubt the US will get involved in any major way. Talks if nothing else like usual. But if that happened it'd be like Desert Storm all over again. US + Israel is a FAR superior force to anything Palestine or Hamas can bring to the table. Two of the most elite military's in the world, it'd be a turkey shoot just like Desert Storm, one major invasion....6months to a year and its over. If not less.

 

 

 

All Hamas is, is a terrorist organization with a Palestinian political front.

 

 

 

I think the move by Israel is fully justified. They have already stated the only mission of the invasion is to stop the rockets. While they might have thoughts of totally owning Palestine in the back of their heads, i doubt they will act upon it. This has been going on for decades, i see it going on for more decades to come.

[1_man_army]

 

2) "Israel doesnt refer to the jews but the state" > true, but why would Hamas want Israel. it has really nothing much to offer. it is that they hate the jews and want to kick their [wagon]. its basically their religion or like a long lasting feud.

 

 

 

3) If it is true that Hamas started ... why r u firing rockets over the border ??? unless u r trying to kill innocent ppl then there really is no legit reason. doesnt matter how many ppl u kill. 2 or thousands there should be some kind of retaliation and Hamas got what they deserve. Israel is small and if they r being attacked they r pretty much forced to expand and be on the offensive no? The crap that Israel has always gotten from them has been horrendous and why should they wait a few more days when more people are killed.

 

 

 

 

2) Hamas wants the land (ie. Israel) as it was under Arab control until 1948 when Israel was established and became a Jewish State. The conflict isn't born out of random anti-semitism (there is an anti-semitic element now but that is a chicken and egg argument) it is born out of the Palestinian desire to have the nation that they once had (albiet under British Mandate) returned to them.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War (There are better sources available online about the topic but Wikipedia is so easy to find).

 

 

 

3) Let me play devil's advocate here. You live in a nation that is walled in (ie. you can't leave it by land, sea or air) and you are fighting what you consider to be a fight for your own nation's independence from people that you consider to be illegal occupiers. How can you attack the enemy in any other way but to fire from what little territory you do have with the little weapons you have? Now I don't condone killing civilians nor do I support Hamas but pragmatically speaking, the rockets are their only option if they want to attack Israel (unless Israel enters Gaza or the West Bank). Now I don't think they should attack as they have been but they feel the need to continue some form of armed struggle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the move by Israel is fully justified. They have already stated the only mission of the invasion is to stop the rockets. While they might have thoughts of totally owning Palestine in the back of their heads, i doubt they will act upon it. This has been going on for decades, i see it going on for more decades to come.

 

 

 

That is the problem though, the bombing hasn't stopped the rockets and neither will the current ground attack. Israel is saying that it will capture sites where rockets are being launched but they still have the range to be fired from even further inside Gaza. Even if they decimate the current Hamas leadership it will only create an atmosphere where young Palestinians will race to join up out of their anger. On top of that, they won't be able to permanently disarm Hamas either, for every tunnel into Egypt they destroy Hamas can just dig another pretty quickly. It just seems a bit redundant to me, it is an unwinnable situation militarily.

 

 

 

I personally think outside mediation is the key in the short term, maybe a neutral party stepping into Gaza to prevent rocket attacks. The problem is the lack of neutral force with the capacity to step into such a position, the difficulty in getting Hamas to agree to having foreigners inside Gaza in such a capacity and Israel not wanting to lose face by having outside interference.

[Ginger_Warrior]

I think the move by Israel is fully justified. They have already stated the only mission of the invasion is to stop the rockets. While they might have thoughts of totally owning Palestine in the back of their heads, i doubt they will act upon it. This has been going on for decades, i see it going on for more decades to come.

 

A developed nation, as Israel is constantly referring to itself as compared to Palestine, should exhaust all peaceful options before considering military force. Israel did not exhaust all its options. It should also use proportionate force in war so as to avoid as many civilian casualties as possible. Israel has not - 100 Arabs for each Israeli can hardly be deemed proportionate.

 

 

 

Even if you accept that Israel is achieving its objective of stopping the rocket attacks (which it isn't... the number of rocket attacks even now is around the same as it was before the conflict), the move is wholly unjustified. Israel hasn't even laid down conditions under which it would accept a ceasefire, except from "stop rocket attacks", which could frankly mean anything. Reoccupation of the Gaza Strip? Total war against Palestine?

 

 

 

"Stop rocket attacks" is the goal, yet the IDF seems to have no tangible method of achieving it; but in the meantime it seems only happy to take innocent life while blaming Hamas for the war.

[Barihawk]

Israel hasn't given back all the land from 1967 war, in fact Khaled Mashal (Hamas' leader in exile) has been quoted (last year I think) saying that if Israel went back to it's pre-1967 borders it would be a realistic aim [1]. It isn't just Palestinian land that Israel still has from that war either, the Golan Heights is still a big area of disagreement between Israel and Syria.

 

 

 

[1]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-softens-israel-stance-in-calls-for-palestinian-state-431624.html

 

 

 

The thing is that it's their land. They got ganked by multiple countries, beat them off, and took some of their territory. It's perfectly acceptable for European and Western nations to do this, what's wrong with Israel doing it? By all definitions of the word "fair," that land is theirs to keep. What's the incentive for them to give it back? Absolutely nothing other than veiled promises of peace that will likely not happen.