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~~~ Jagex's Mass RWT Ban Cover-up ~~~


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#1
tugrul88
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In the early months of 2007, Jagex were battling against Real World Traders (RWTs). Around 8,000 players accused of RWT’ing were banned every week, and a total of AT LEAST 64,000 players were banned.



“What's actually going on is that the VAST majority of the level-3 characters you see playing the game repetitively and not talking to anyone, are actually people from countries such as China and Korea, who are trying to collect RuneScape gold to sell for real world money (obviously against the rules). Some of them aren't even using bots, they are just playing the game very repetitively with a single-minded purpose to collect gold.”



When the bans happened, Jagex were after the gold farmers and those who stole credit cards in order to benefit themselves in the real world. While doing this they managed to get most of them, but in the cluster, banned many people who were simply "rich".



Many stakers were banned due to winning or losing millions to billions in the arena. This was simply them playing the game and perhaps being lucky in their wins. They had no intention nor did they real world trade, they simply staked and won.



Some players who donated money or lent items to their friends/family were banned, as Jagex detected an uneven trade and assumed it was RWT’ing.

Prime example; my old account was banned for RWT when I lent my friend a Partyhat for 5 days. The day after he returned it, we were both banned and my appeal was denied 2 minutes after I sent it off.



“Obviously, we will always be careful to make sure nobody is banned in error.”



You weren’t very careful Jagex. I wouldn’t blame you for misfiring on some occasions as you were dealing with at least 64,000 accounts so mistakes happen.



But why are the innocent still banned? Obviously not much effort is put into investigating into RWT offences. I base this on that fact that my appeal was denied after 2 minutes, my friends’ was denied after a mere 18 seconds, and I know many others that were denied in a ridiculously short amount of time.



As for the Evidence page, it shows no evidence whatsoever. Simply stating “We have evidence that you were in control of the account during the offence” is not sufficient. You cannot continue refusing to show evidence, with “we cannot explain our methods of catching RWTers in case people find a way around the system”. You’ve stated that RWT’ing is impossible. So give us the evidence we deserve to see, if there is any evidence at all.



Even with this new Appeal System, I have no hope left for justice, as I’m sure you’ll place all the accounts accused of RWT’ing in one boat and push the Big Red ‘Denied’ Button.



This is not justice. And “it’s for the greater good – we’ll be free of RWTers but some civilians will suffer too” is not an excuse.



It’s time to face the facts, to stop covering up this outrage and failure, and make up for your mistake. I urge a REAL thorough investigation for once. Looking into the trade logs of some cases (such as mine) will prove that an item was lent and returned.

___________________________________________________



This was posted on the RS forums, and after a day it was locked because some people mentioned account names and histories.

So I made a new thread, warning people not to post any names, and to either support or oppose.

This was locked too, and no reason was given as to how I incriminated the rules. I've also received a forum ban.



I don't know what else to do. It's been over 2 years, and every time I get over Jagex's injustice and try to move on, they bring out 2nd chance appeals. These are of course denied. I've yet to meet someone accused of RWT'ing getting unbanned.



Has anyone else noticed this cover-up?
Tugrul88 ---> Perm Banned because Jagex can't distinguish the difference between Trust-trading and RW trading.

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#2
Alg
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There were some stakers that did buy/sell their gold though. I recall seeing someone trade with a gold seller and go straight back to whatever the staking world was at the time (22?)

Though I agree that they do need to actually read appeals.

It sounds less like a cover up and more of you ranting about being banned though. A cover up would require that they banned players that they didn't like as RWT'ers. What it looks like is that they banned players that looked like RWT'ers as RWT'ers (Player A trades Player B 1 million gold. That's all Jagex got as far as both RWT'ers and players supporting their friends. Not to say it can't use improvement...)



Though a trust trade is more or less a scam, if it's the kind I'm thinking of...

#3
tugrul88
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There were some stakers that did buy/sell their gold though. I recall seeing someone trade with a gold seller and go straight back to whatever the staking world was at the time (22?)

Though I agree that they do need to actually read appeals.

It sounds less like a cover up and more of you ranting about being banned though. A cover up would require that they banned players that they didn't like as RWT'ers. What it looks like is that they banned players that looked like RWT'ers as RWT'ers (Player A trades Player B 1 million gold. That's all Jagex got as far as both RWT'ers and players supporting their friends. Not to say it can't use improvement...)



Though a trust trade is more or less a scam, if it's the kind I'm thinking of...




Yes, some stakers did. So those should remain banned.

But banning anyone that wins a big stake is justice?



I wasn't a staker anyway. I was a merchant. And by trust trade, I mean asking a friend to hold onto something for a period of time.



In my case, I bought a Phat after my membership expired. I spent 5 days alching Green Bodies in F2P, and I didn't want to log off with a Phat in my inventory. I asked my best friend 3_H1t_Qu1t (name edited) to look after it until I renewed my membership. I renewed my membership 5 days later, he returned it, and we were both banned the next day.



A simple investigation into our trade logs, would prove the same coded item was trade back and forth within 5 days, proving it was item lending/trust-trade.



But I've had 4 appeals denied, and I have no hope left of the new appeal to be accepted after this.



And I mean it's a cover-up because they lock any thread that mentions it without reason. They realise they banned some people wrongly, but they're trying to cover it up.
Tugrul88 ---> Perm Banned because Jagex can't distinguish the difference between Trust-trading and RW trading.

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#4
The_Gabe
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Wow. I completely agree with this thread. Another Jagex coverup :roll:
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Three months banishment to 9gag is something i would never wish upon anybody, not even my worst enemy.


#5
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Do you honestly think Jagex has the time to go through what would be so many trade logs in order to try unban one poor kid?



We do not know how they are stored, or even if it would be possible to find it easily. Face it, they make mistakes, but in their eyes, it looked suspicious, and I'm guessing it was a big problem around the time. Hell, we don't even know if they have trade logs kept for a long amount of time, they could keep them for a few days, then delete the logs to save space. With the amount of trades that will have happened over the years (into the billions I should think) do you think Jagex would honestly keep every single one?



Face it, there is no way we can prove either way. Maybe you are right, maybe Jagex is right. We've had people lying here before to villianise Jagex, so as far as we know, it was a case of real world trading, or it wasn't. We can't take sides without seeing evidence.
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#6
Makoto_the_Phoenix
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Face it, there is no way we can prove either way. Maybe you are right, maybe Jagex is right. We've had people lying here before to villianise Jagex, so as far as we know, it was a case of real world trading, or it wasn't. We can't take sides without seeing evidence.


I agree with this statement here. I don't know if you were or were not involved with RWT, since all we have is your word (which no one should take at face value, unless they have a reputation). No evidence, no way we can say who was right or wrong. That's all there is to it.

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#7
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Bad Jagex BAD!!!.



But to be honest, not totally unexpected.
O.O

#8
tugrul88
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Do you honestly think Jagex has the time to go through what would be so many trade logs in order to try unban one poor kid?




The fact is, if I was banned for lending an item (which I was, accept my word or don't), then I'm sure others were banned wrongly too. So it's not just "one poor kid".



Either way, if someone claims their innocence, Jagex HAS to go through the logs thoroughly before they make their final decision. It's the professional thing to do. Having my final appeal auto-denied after 2 minutes goes to prove that they don't check through RWT cases.



And can anyone hear that's calling me a liar really tell me that Jagex successfully caught all 64K+ RWT'ers? They claim that they didn't ban anyone wrongly, and their system is flawless. Do you really believe that they didn't misconceive in some instances?



If you believe that, then you don't know Jagex very well and there's not much more I can say.
Tugrul88 ---> Perm Banned because Jagex can't distinguish the difference between Trust-trading and RW trading.

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#9
tugrul88
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I don't know if you were or were not involved with RWT, since all we have is your word (which no one should take at face value, unless they have a reputation). No evidence, no way we can say who was right or wrong. That's all there is to it.




I understand that.

I did have a reputation a few years ago. I was an honest, mature and pretty well-known Phat merchant.

But not many people remember me I guess.



If I could provide evidence, I would. But I can't.



So it's just my word. I don't expect everyone to believe me.
Tugrul88 ---> Perm Banned because Jagex can't distinguish the difference between Trust-trading and RW trading.

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#10
tugrul88
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A staker I know had his appeal denied 18 seconds after he sent it off.

He posted on the forums asking about it, and just before his thread was locked and he was banned from the forums, he got a response.



Here's the lies that Jagex stoop to to cover-up this outrage:

_______________________________________________________



Mod M---

Jagex Mod





18-May-2009 12:47:54

I wouldn't be too quick to "agree" on this one.



Whilst I cannot discuss account details on the forums, I will say that it took me under a minute to review the evidence against the account in question, all I can say is that it was *very* strong evidence.



We can tell the difference between a genuine trade/stake and when somebody is either buying, selling or dealing with RWT.



Don't forget that being linked to malicious groups of bug abusers, macroers or RWT rings can also lead to rather strict punishments.



I've locked this thread and will hide the OP's post as they cannot provide evidence of what they are saying and Jagex cannot discuss account details.



Good day


____________________________________________________



So the Mod is saying he received the appeal, read the appeal, checked the evidence thoroughly, and responded IN 18 SECONDS.

Does anyone buy that? So he was refreshing his inbox every second until he received the appeal, he read the 1K character appeal, checked the evidence and responded?



Or are they lying yet again about their automated responses?



"We can tell the difference between a genuine trade/stake and when somebody is either buying, selling or dealing with RWT."



Then why were people banned for staking/lending-items/donating? Because you didn't want to take any chances?...
Tugrul88 ---> Perm Banned because Jagex can't distinguish the difference between Trust-trading and RW trading.

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#11
xpandax
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I believe you. It really isn't that hard to believe what you're saying... i've played since late 2001 and have seen many cases of jagex pulling the ban-trigger far too fast and then not owning up to their mistakes. My first rsc main is in fact, still banned from the mass macroing bans back in rsc and i'm waiting on my newest second chance appeal. Of course jagex has no evidence, but the odds of jagex actually investigating and making what they did wrong right are far too small to count on. i'm just happy that they've actually taken their time before insta denying my appeal. My appeal has been pending since the 11th so either they are taking a long time before sending an auto response to make it look like they are looking into it, or miracle of all miracles, they are actually looking into my ban.



To the people who blindly accept everything jagex does, that's all well and good, but just because nothing has ever happened to you doesn't mean those things don't happen. As i've said i've played for a long time, and while i don't "hate" jagex I have a healthy fear of their incompetence when it comes to customer support.

#12
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I believe you. It really isn't that hard to believe what you're saying... i've played since late 2001 and have seen many cases of jagex pulling the ban-trigger far too fast and then not owning up to their mistakes. My first rsc main is in fact, still banned from the mass macroing bans back in rsc and i'm waiting on my newest second chance appeal. Of course jagex has no evidence, but the odds of jagex actually investigating and making what they did wrong right are far too small to count on. i'm just happy that they've actually taken their time before insta denying my appeal. My appeal has been pending since the 11th so either they are taking a long time before sending an auto response to make it look like they are looking into it, or miracle of all miracles, they are actually looking into my ban.



To the people who blindly accept everything jagex does, that's all well and good, but just because nothing has ever happened to you doesn't mean those things don't happen. As i've said i've played for a long time, and while i don't "hate" jagex I have a healthy fear of their incompetence when it comes to customer support.




Thank you for your response and your support.



I don't expect many people to believe me unless they're seen the side of Jagex that makes mistakes. 3 years ago, I was hoping to serve Jagex and was waiting for the day I'd be chosen as a Player Moderator. If anyone was hacked or banned, I would have thought they brought it on themselves. So I don't judge anyone that calls me a liar.



I'm sorry about your ban, and hope for the best.

As for them actually looking into it this time: They were unable to read any appeals until the 15th of May, and then they said they're swamped so it'll take a few weeks to respond to them all.



The chances of accused macroers and RWT'ers being unbanned are very slim, as I truly believe that they wont be looking into it properly, yet again.



I hope they do, but I just can't see it happening.
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#13
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to be honest, by now i don't expect an unban anymore. If i get one great, another white p hat is back in circulation, if not then i'll continue playing on my range tank. The only thing that still bothers me about the ban is that it was in 05... they don't use the line that they can't show me the evidence because someone could use that information against them, they straight up say they have no evidence.



So they're telling me that i've been banned for 4 years for no apparent reason other then someone at jagex thought i was macroing back in 05... gf.

#14
tugrul88
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to be honest, by now i don't expect an unban anymore. If i get one great, another white p hat is back in circulation, if not then i'll continue playing on my range tank. The only thing that still bothers me about the ban is that it was in 05... they don't use the line that they can't show me the evidence because someone could use that information against them, they straight up say they have no evidence.



So they're telling me that i've been banned for 4 years for no apparent reason other then someone at jagex thought i was macroing back in 05... gf.




Wow, that's a joke.



I don't see the point of an Evidence page if they're banning people without evidence...

Just goes to show they'll ban anything suspicious and they're trying to make sure the community doesn't turn on them with pathetic excuses like that.
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#15
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Do you honestly think Jagex has the time to go through what would be so many trade logs in order to try unban one poor kid?




Dunno about English laws, but accroding to the Finnish laws a member account banned for no reason would be a product that broke before expected. Jagex would be required to prove that the product was broken by the user or fix the broken product for free or refund the membership money.



If you were a member and you think you have been banned for no reason, you should contact the consumer protection authorities.

#16
tugrul88
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Do you honestly think Jagex has the time to go through what would be so many trade logs in order to try unban one poor kid?




Dunno about English laws, but accroding to the Finnish laws a member account banned for no reason would be a product that broke before expected. Jagex would be required to prove that the product was broken by the user or fix the broken product for free or refund the membership money.



If you were a member and you think you have been banned for no reason, you should contact the consumer protection authorities.




The Consumer Protection Authorities? Would they have the power to make Jagex unban those that were banned for RWT'ing, when really they were lending an item?



I was a member when I was banned, I had just renewed it, and my friend returned my Phat. So I had 30 days membership remaining.
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#17
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Do you honestly think Jagex has the time to go through what would be so many trade logs in order to try unban one poor kid?




Dunno about English laws, but accroding to the Finnish laws a member account banned for no reason would be a product that broke before expected. Jagex would be required to prove that the product was broken by the user or fix the broken product for free or refund the membership money.



If you were a member and you think you have been banned for no reason, you should contact the consumer protection authorities.




Jagex have it covered quite clearly in their terms and conditions, which you agree to.



In it, it states that your account is property of Jagex limited. If they feel you have broken rules, you have agreed that you are NOT entitled to a refund.



Seriously, people need to quit being so stupid. Jagex have covered their [wagon] well.



And yes, I have gone through it multiple times. I was bored so ended up trying to see if there were and obvious loopholes for reasons I have forgotten.
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#18
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Do you honestly think Jagex has the time to go through what would be so many trade logs in order to try unban one poor kid?




Dunno about English laws, but accroding to the Finnish laws a member account banned for no reason would be a product that broke before expected. Jagex would be required to prove that the product was broken by the user or fix the broken product for free or refund the membership money.



If you were a member and you think you have been banned for no reason, you should contact the consumer protection authorities.




Jagex have it covered quite clearly in their terms and conditions, which you agree to.



In it, it states that your account is property of Jagex limited. If they feel you have broken rules, you have agreed that you are NOT entitled to a refund.



Seriously, people need to quit being so stupid. Jagex have covered their [wagon] well.



And yes, I have gone through it multiple times. I was bored so ended up trying to see if there were and obvious loopholes for reasons I have forgotten.




Terms and conditions are null and void if they are illegal. See:



http://en.wikipedia.... ... tions_1999

http://en.wikipedia.... ... s_Act_1977



According to these laws,

Regulation 8 provides that an unfair term "shall not be binding upon the consumer".




If you have paid membership, the product should be expected to work for that time unless it is broken by the user.



If they ban an account for no reason, they must also refund the paid money.

#19
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Our rights

If, acting reasonably, we consider that our Terms and Conditions have or may have been breached, or that it is necessary in order to prevent or stop any harm or damage to us, to any Jagex Product, to other players or the general public, we may Stop (as defined above) any or all accounts of Jagex Products which we think are connected with the offender subject to such right of appeal as is specified on our website. Such actions may result in loss of membership credit and/or loss of real money paid as part of any item / account trading or other prohibited transaction.




They had reason to believe he had broken the rules, and as such, has breached the terms to which he agreed.



Complaints

If you are dissatisfied with this website or any aspect of it, please contact us via the forms on our website or write to our registered office above.




If you want to argue about the T&C, then I suggest you take up this part. I'm sure they'll be able to answer in a more satisfactory form to you. However, I dare say that it won't help much.
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#20
tugrul88
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They had reason to believe he had broken the rules, and as such, has breached the terms to which he agreed.




Lending items, or even donating money to a friend is not against the rules though.



They assumed I was RWT'ing because they saw an unbalanced trade. hence why they can't provide evidence, because they knew that some innocents would be banned to make sure they got rid of the RWT threat.



So without conclusive evidence of a RWT, doesn't that mean I'd win the case if I took it to the Consumer protection Authorities?



If so, I'll have to do so if they deny this new appeal.
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