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Full Drops in PVP: Impossible?


De_Lille_D

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Intro:

Ever since the trade limit got introduced, there has been at least one thread in one of the first 5 pages of the Pvp Suggestions called "|3R1nG B4c|< 0ld VVilc|y !!1!1!!!

Of course they have been ignored for the simple fact that such a suggestion would obviously bring back RWTing, followed by all it's problems (scams, stolen credit cards, sweatshops, ...).

 

Now, I've decided to give this a little more thought and see if I can come up with a way to provide Full Drops without enabling RWTing.

I guess I'll start by showing you my idea and how I got to it. Then you can comment on it, so we can try to find loopholes or ways why it won't work. Eventually, I hope to find a foolproof way to replace the Pvp worlds with a better alternative.

 

 

Let's get started:

So, our goal is to offer Full Drops, meaning you get all the tradeable items your opponent lost on death when you kill someone in Pvp/BH worlds, but without causing RWTing.

[Altered GE = GE that allows you to trade with the game rather than with players. This would mean that selling your stuff would be the same as changing it into money and buying would be changing your money into items.] (See 7 and 8)

 

1) First of all, we'll have to split normal and Pvp Bank. Meaning that any items you get in Pvp worlds can not be taken back to normal worlds for obvious reasons (RWTing).

 

2) Secondly, the Pvp bank should be reseted every so often, because I'm sure that people would still pay real money for items, even if they are only for Pvp.

 

3) This also implies that the normal economy and the pking economy should be kept seperate, because items would disappear after a while, making the items more rare and thus driving up the price. And even if the items would be sold back at the GE, cash would evaporate... This would result in inflation like you've never seen before.This means being rich on normal worlds does not make you rich on Pvp worlds.

 

4) If the bank is going to rest once every week/month/... (the reset period), you'll need some money to get started after a reset, because we know that pkers hate skilling and won't spend time getting things that will disappear after a while. We'll call this Starting Cash. This also explains why there have to be 2 separate banks, or else all the banks would be reseted every so often and I don't think that's a good idea.

 

5) How much starting cash you get would depend on how good you pk, in order to stop people to ask all their non-pking friends to give them their starting cash, or to even pay RWTers to get their starting cash. You could think of a PK Points system to award/ subtract points depending on your kills/deaths (but let's leave that for later). If you hit 0 Pk points, you won't get any starting cash at all and will have to make money the old fashioned way/make your own weapons and food and try to get your Pk points up before next reset.

 

6) Obviously, your exp on normal worlds and Pvp worlds would be the same; meaning if you have 85 Woodcutting on normal worlds, you'll also have 85 on Pvp worlds. Any exp gotten in Pvp worlds would count towards your next level.

 

7) You should be able to buy any items from an Altered GE (even rare monster drops or void). Where else would you get whips? Are you going to camp at abyssal demons when you know your bank will be reset later on?

 

8) You should be able to sell any drops to an Altered GE. Because most of the time, you won't be able to use the dropped items. Therefore they will be left on the ground and money will constantly decrease in Pvp worlds ...

 

9) From 7 and 8 I deduce that it would be better not to have a bank for items at all.Your bank would only contain money. The items you would normally deposit will be transformed into money, which can later be used to buy all the items you need from the Altered GE. [Maybe you could upgrade the banks to put a GE interface in every bank.]

 

10) If items are going to be transformed to cash and back constantly, prices should remain fixed in the Pvp economy, since the GE doesn't trade amongst players anyway. Perhaps the prices shall be set when the Pvp "banks" are reset and kept fixed until the next reset. Another option would be for Jagex to control the prices. This would make it easier to make money on Pvp worlds, once you've lost it all.

 

11) If this suggestion gets released, each account will be given a certain amount of pk points, but from then on, all new accounts would have 0 pk points. This is to stop RWTers to constantly make new accounts to access the starting cash.

 

12) If you have 0 pk points, but have a certain amount of cash (max. maybe 50k) in bank at reset, you'll keep that amount, so that you can at least buy a decent woodcutting axe or something like that... If you have no cash in bank however, you will get nothing at next reset.

 

 

Reason why this would not allow RWTing:

Basically, the fact that any in-game items would only be temporary will greatly bring down the price (it's more like renting an item ...). Also, assuming they will attempt to make bots to use in those worlds, these bots will most likely have 0 pk points and thus have to make all the money the want to transfer from scratch. If you make the reset period short enough, they won't have enough time to make enough gp to sell before next reset...

 

 

 

Conclusion:

Well, that's what I think. Now let the discussion begin!

Please state clearly which point you want to discuss. Keep it a friendly debate: this means no spamming/flaming/... If you want to suggest a new point/ a new description to a point, feel free to do so.

 

 

_

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Wow, you've really thought this out well. Unfortunately, the main reason why pkers fight is to make money. If that money is reset every x days, then pking as we know it becomes obsolete. In addition, I see this bringing down the prices of rune armours and all PKing items in general in the "real" rs economy (as compared to the alternative one you suggested). Again, I really like these creative ideas you have, but I just can't see them working.

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I really like the idea. A few things. 1) will everything you have on be banked into a the pve part when enter pvp world. 2) can you bring pve money into the pvp world(which you would lose when reset happends), 3) with the ranking system make it that at rank intervalls you can KEEP more money in your bank EX, for every Xpoints you can keep Y money with reset( only what you have no adding) and anything over it would be removed.

Great idea and supporting :thumbsup: , this would bring back the pvp.

P.S. pvp never was a main income of money unless you where really good and only doing it.

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Great idea and supporting :thumbsup: , this would bring back the pvp.

P.S. pvp never was a main income of money unless you where really good and only doing it.

 

Right you are.

 

However, I was talking about PKing, not PVP. Full drops would be a return to pre-07 PKing, where it WAS a good source of income.

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PVP in Runescape for the most part has been brought back to or at least as close as possible to being as good as it was before the whole RWT crisis. Those who still complain about the new PVP system will either get over it, or leave the game entirely. This isn't a problem for Jagex, the customers(I'll be referring to them as customers as thats how a business like Jagex sees us) who leave will soon be replaced by another set of new customers. At the moment Jagex isn't looking for a solution to all the complaints of its customers, rather, they're waiting for the complainers to be cleansed from the system. Once those complainers are gone all that will be left are those who have come to accept the current PVP system, and those newer customers who never knew the old PVP system. Whats that old saying? You can't miss what you never had.?

 

In short implementing something like this is a big change, change causes complaints. From Jagex's standpoint, why go through all this trouble to make these changes only to create more complainers and lose more customers, while all they would have to do now is wait for new customers to replace the old ones?

Previously known as Monkeybeast0.

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Great idea and supporting :thumbsup: , this would bring back the pvp.

P.S. pvp never was a main income of money unless you where really good and only doing it.

 

Right you are.

 

However, I was talking about PKing, not PVP. Full drops would be a return to pre-07 PKing, where it WAS a good source of income.

 

PVP back in the day was a money sink... It was not a money making process like PVP is now.

 

Every fight, there were people wasting/using pots ans food that were largely left on the ground when someone died. Only pkers that succeeded in gaining more cash through kills than supplies and death would agree that it was a good source of income.

 

Your idea is very sound, but it's probably too complicated to have the right implementation and the player understanding to work.

 

The best idea to have full drops in PVP would be to get a duel arena type of world where you get to fight a random player and the winner gets the loot plus some untradeable gear. That would be a fight to the death without rules, teleing and running. Only one world available to reduce the chance of RWT. Once you accept to get in a fight, there's no turning back, you win or you die.

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1) Unfortunately, the main reason why pkers fight is to make money. If that money is reset every x days, then pking as we know it becomes obsolete.

2) I see this bringing down the prices of rune armours and all PKing items in general in the "real" rs economy.

3)..., but I just can't see them working.

1) They'll still make money, but that money can only be used in Pvp... There's just no other way to have full drops without RTWing!

2) Of course this will have a huge impact on the real economy, but what did you expect? But I'm not convinced that this is necessarily a bad change ... It's not like the economy won't function anymore without pking.

3) Perhaps not, but this debate is focused on "what if we HAD to come up with a Full Drop (No RWTing) alternative".

 

1) will everything you have on be banked into a the pve part when enter pvp world.

2) can you bring pve money into the pvp world(which you would lose when reset happends),

3) with the ranking system make it that at rank intervalls you can KEEP more money in your bank EX, for every Xpoints you can keep Y money with reset( only what you have no adding) and anything over it would be removed.

4) P.S. pvp never was a main income of money unless you where really good and only doing it.

1) Yes. No items can transfer between normal and Pvp worlds.

2) No. Gp is an item.

3) The Starting Cash formula isn't something we'll discuss here. Just assume it's fair, so that you get more money for more Pk Points and no money at all for 0 Points (and max keep 50k). Don't forget that unless you reset banks, there will be people with high Pk Points who will buy stuff from RWTers.

4) True, but people were always ready to invest cash they got from skilloing into pking. Or maybe we can let Jagex throw in an extra something for impressive kills (not so much to let people kill each other just for those extras).

 

However, I was talking about PKing, not PVP. Full drops would be a return to pre-07 PKing, where it WAS a good source of income.

I have no idea how it was before, but if everyone always picks up all the drops, no money will get lost.

Now, we know that isn't going to happen ... But people can still skill for their money and if Jagex controls the prices, it should be easier to make money on those worlds. (Thye still decide how easy...)

 

1) ... they're waiting for the complainers to be cleansed from the system.

2) ... implementing something like this is a big change, change causes complaints.

3) ... why go through all this trouble to make these changes only to create more complainers and lose more customers, while all they would have to do now is wait for new customers to replace the old ones?

1) I'm not sure Jagex is trying to get rid of pkers ... Money from them is money as well. I think their main concern is making a game that is pleasant to play for all.

2) In such a big game, there will always be complaining. But that shouldn't stop you from improving your game.

3) Again, we're just looking for a way to replace pking; not a reason to.

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1) It was not a money making process like PVP is now.

2) ... it's probably too complicated to have the right implementation and the player understanding to work.

3) The best idea to have full drops in PVP would be to get a duel arena type of world where you get to fight a random player and the winner gets the loot plus some untradeable gear. That would be a fight to the death without rules, teleing and running. Only one world available to reduce the chance of RWT. Once you accept to get in a fight, there's no turning back, you win or you die.

1) You have a point, but don't forget that Jagex can control the pvp economy prices, thereby making skilling way more profitable than it is now. This also adds a new aspect of hunting the skillers ...

2) We aren't discussing if the implementation is realistic or not; I just want to explore what is necessary to make full drops possible.

3) I'm going to have burst your bubble there, because there's an easy way to still RWT there:

Macro/Gold Farming accounts just become pures and on low hours they meet up in those worlds. If they get their target, they die intentionally and lose their superior equipment; if not, they fight normally and have an equally good chance to win (greater even, because they could switch to players who are better at pking). Also, if you can't just make a single word for Full Drop Dueling: too many people would want in.

Also, if you can use protect item it's even easier:

RWTers bring a single good item (AGS, Spirit shield, DFS, ...) and die intentionally with protect item until they get teamed with target where they don't use the pray. As long as they don't have food, they can't lose their item (if they did, others could use smite).

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You know, this is a pretty cool idea. It basically makes PvP into a huge minigame.

 

Maybe instead of GP you could have some other currency that only works on PvP worlds (perhaps already suggested)?

 

I kinda like the WoW model of PvP. This is somewhat close to that (earning PK points vs earning honor).

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1) It basically makes PvP into a huge minigame.

2)... instead of GP you could have some other currency that only works on PvP worlds (perhaps already suggested)?

3)I kinda like the WoW model of PvP. This is somewhat close to that (earning PK points vs earning honor).

1) It wouldn't be only the Wildy. It's like the Pvp Worlds now, but with full drops.

2) It's basically the same, but an amount of tokens might make it easier to understand for some. (BTW it wasn't suggested yet)

3) I have never played WoW so I can't really compare, but I doubt you can just attack anyone you want. (Please don't make this thread about WoW)

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Not making it about WoW, kid. It's helpful to draw from other sources, don'tcha know?

 

And yes, in WoW, on PvP servers you can attack anyone of the enemy faction, except in specific safe places.

Firstly, this would be free-for-all, not team-based, and secondly, I don't recall people saying you lose all your items to the person who killed you in WoW.

I understand that you might associate this idea with WoW, but seeing as my knowledge regarding the subject is limited, I suggest we keep these kind of analogies to a minimum.

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Yup, I'm done. Have fun setting the rules in your little sandbox, because you won't get much creativity. Oh, and just because someone uses something as an example that's not 100% the same doesn't mean the point that was being made isn't valid.

 

You'd be great in middle management.

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1) Have fun setting the rules in your little sandbox, ...

2) ... because you won't get much creativity.

3) just because someone uses something as an example that's not 100% the same doesn't mean the point that was being made isn't valid.

4) You'd be great in middle management.

1) Rules are everywhere. If you remove the rules, all that is left is chaos. I've just seen too many good threads become sidetracked on unimportant details to allow it to happen to any of mine.

2) Won't get much creativity? You're the one copying someone else's idea...

3) If you can't express your point without referring to something I know very little about, I'm not to blame.

4) Is that supposed to be an insult? Not very effective I'm afraid since I have no idea what you mean.

 

Seriously, I don't understand what you're getting al worked up about. I was just asking to make sure I understood what you are talking about.

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1) It was not a money making process like PVP is now.

2) ... it's probably too complicated to have the right implementation and the player understanding to work.

3) The best idea to have full drops in PVP would be to get a duel arena type of world where you get to fight a random player and the winner gets the loot plus some untradeable gear. That would be a fight to the death without rules, teleing and running. Only one world available to reduce the chance of RWT. Once you accept to get in a fight, there's no turning back, you win or you die.

1) You have a point, but don't forget that Jagex can control the pvp economy prices, thereby making skilling way more profitable than it is now. This also adds a new aspect of hunting the skillers ...

2) We aren't discussing if the implementation is realistic or not; I just want to explore what is necessary to make full drops possible.

3) I'm going to have burst your bubble there, because there's an easy way to still RWT there:

Macro/Gold Farming accounts just become pures and on low hours they meet up in those worlds. If they get their target, they die intentionally and lose their superior equipment; if not, they fight normally and have an equally good chance to win (greater even, because they could switch to players who are better at pking). Also, if you can't just make a single word for Full Drop Dueling: too many people would want in.

Also, if you can use protect item it's even easier:

RWTers bring a single good item (AGS, Spirit shield, DFS, ...) and die intentionally with protect item until they get teamed with target where they don't use the pray. As long as they don't have food, they can't lose their item (if they did, others could use smite).

 

1) What would be the incentive for a skiller to go to a PVP with full drops if any money earned there is gonna get erased anyway? Skilling is either about getting money or getting XP, unless you make these worlds with permanent XP boost, you will only have pkers fighting pkers.

2) Okay, what is necessary is to have PVP worlds where gold isn't allowed and loot can be traded in for honour points. Honour points are accumulated throughout the month and an highscore is established for every month. the pkers at the top are those that got the most "friends" to die for them. This would be a great money sinkand rebalance the economy.

3) I said there would only be one world and you could get assigned a random opponent. If there are too many people, then great less chance of getting your target. Protect item would be useless because you would lose everything on you no matter what.

 

BTW, points 2 and 3 are about 2 different implementations and not to be analyse as a whole.

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1) What would be the incentive for a skiller to go to a PVP with full drops if any money earned there is gonna get erased anyway? Skilling is either about getting money or getting XP, unless you make these worlds with permanent XP boost, you will only have pkers fighting pkers.

2) Okay, what is necessary is to have PVP worlds where gold isn't allowed and loot can be traded in for honour points. Honour points are accumulated throughout the month and an highscore is established for every month. the pkers at the top are those that got the most "friends" to die for them. This would be a great money sinkand rebalance the economy.

3) I said there would only be one world and you could get assigned a random opponent. If there are too many people, then great less chance of getting your target. Protect item would be useless because you would lose everything on you no matter what.

 

BTW, points 2 and 3 are about 2 different implementations and not to be analyse as a whole.

1) These worlds aren't mean to attract skillers. In such worlds, cut off from normal economy, there will be constant loss of money (food/pots eaten, runes/arrows used, loot left on the ground...). Therefore, some pkers will run out of gear/money and will have to skill to get new gear. Jagex can adjust prices for resources, so that skilling is more profitable than it is in normal worlds (thus making it easier to earn back money), and as a result, pkers will be more inclined to hunt these skilling pkers. If you don't like pking, there's no real reason to go to these worlds.

 

2) I doubt that the best pkers will only get their Pk Points from friend deaths, as the amount you gain depends on how much Points the other person had/lost. If these friends had 0 Pk Points (from dieing too much), they wouldn't give any Pk Points to the person they died to. Sure, it's possible to get a few good pkers together and channel all their Pk Points in 1 account, but If you add that dieing to the same account several times a week will result in no Pk Points or loot being transfered, that problem is also solved.

 

3) Still, even if there is only 1 world, RWTers will just bring extremely good gear (giving them an advantage in gear and stats) and ask their buyers to come at low hours (middle of US night). Then suppose you have 50 RWTers for maybe 10 buyers, after a while, you'll have transfered all the money (gear) you wanted... RWTers of different sites might even merge to reduce loses (if a RWTer meets a RWTer from a different site) and I don't think getting them more organized is a good idea.

You can't count on probability to solve your problem. You have to make it impossible, not unlikely, to RWT!

Also, I said there would be several worlds because you just can't fit all those pkers in 1 world. Jagex wouldn't release a minigame that's only accessible to only 2000 people at a time.

Oh and if you doubt there'll be enough RWTers in a world to make this efficient, think of it this way: when RWTing was allowed, it became a major problem, meaning they were doing good business. Now, when you tell a child he can't watch TV during the week, he'll spend his entire weekend watching it. Why? Because you don't know what you have until it's gone.

Same could be said for the Runescape community: if you make RWTing possible, RWTers will be making even more money than before!

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I think this is simple.

 

The way to fix PvP is as follows.

 

When someone dies, and loses, for instance, 234ks worth of items, the person who gets the kill gets a random amount of money from anywhere between 1gp and 234k gp. No Earned Potential etc, just straight up random chance. Perhaps maybe increase the chance of the higher amount the more that you risk.

 

It prevents RWT, simply because it would be so inefficient for people to sell kills of a few million, because there is still a high chance that you would get 1gp from a 20 million kill, but it rewards regular pkers who go for the most equipped guys, and get kills regularly. The law of averages states that people would make money.

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I think this is simple.

 

The way to fix PvP is as follows.

 

When someone dies, and loses, for instance, 234ks worth of items, the person who gets the kill gets a random amount of money from anywhere between 1gp and 234k gp. No Earned Potential etc, just straight up random chance. Perhaps maybe increase the chance of the higher amount the more that you risk.

 

It prevents RWT, simply because it would be so inefficient for people to sell kills of a few million, because there is still a high chance that you would get 1gp from a 20 million kill, but it rewards regular pkers who go for the most equipped guys, and get kills regularly. The law of averages states that people would make money.

 

I like your enthusiasms, but I'm afraid it's not RWTing-proof.

Adding probability will almost never solve a problem like this. RWTers would just take the cash and lose it anyway ... They don't care that they'll lose maybe 20 mill. It'll be the customers who will have to pay for that. And if the buyer bring a lot of money of his own, he'll have an even better chance at the loot.

If you consider an update where the killer only gets half the loot the lower lost, there can still be RWTing (just bring 2 AGS instead of 1 and make the customer pay double). Sure, your idea allows for 1 gp, but it also allows for (total -1 gp), so they basically do the same. Neither of them stops RWTing.

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i think these are great ideas,

 

good job :mrgreen:

 

unfortunatly, many pkers will probly complain because they cant get money from pking....

 

i like the idea though, i think pkin should be for fun, not profit

lots of money is tainted, it taint yours, and it taint mine

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1) ... they cant get money from pking....

2) ... i think pkin should be for fun, not profit

1) That depends how you look at it. Sure, you can't make money in pvp to use in normal worlds. But in pvp, the real "money" are your Pk Points, as they determine how much starting cash you get after a reset.

2) I agree.

 

grtz nice writing :D

Thanks.

--------------------

 

 

I've been thinking: should you be able to train skills like prayer or herblore in these worlds? People could use the money they make from pking to "buy" xp, since the money's going disappear anyway after a while, but the xp you gained will not.

 

Some possible solutions (these are multiple ideas, not 1 idea explained in several steps):

- Make a new game: Runescape PVP. This would mean no interaction between the games at all; not even accounts.

- Any xp gotten in normal worlds adds to your level in Pvp, but not the other way around. If you woodcut in Pvp, you get exp, but if you level there, you wouldn't level in normal worlds.

- Only some skills are trainable: woodcutting, melee,... Others aren't: herblore, firemaking, ... (any buyable skills)

- Some items can't be sold or traded: bones, herbs, secondary items, logs, ... You can still train all skills, but you'll have to get your own resources in Pvp worlds (for example, hunt green dragons to bury the bones).

 

Any thoughts?

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I think this is simple.

 

The way to fix PvP is as follows.

 

When someone dies, and loses, for instance, 234ks worth of items, the person who gets the kill gets a random amount of money from anywhere between 1gp and 234k gp. No Earned Potential etc, just straight up random chance. Perhaps maybe increase the chance of the higher amount the more that you risk.

 

It prevents RWT, simply because it would be so inefficient for people to sell kills of a few million, because there is still a high chance that you would get 1gp from a 20 million kill, but it rewards regular pkers who go for the most equipped guys, and get kills regularly. The law of averages states that people would make money.

 

I like your enthusiasms, but I'm afraid it's not RWTing-proof.

Adding probability will almost never solve a problem like this. RWTers would just take the cash and lose it anyway ... They don't care that they'll lose maybe 20 mill. It'll be the customers who will have to pay for that. And if the buyer bring a lot of money of his own, he'll have an even better chance at the loot.

If you consider an update where the killer only gets half the loot the lower lost, there can still be RWTing (just bring 2 AGS instead of 1 and make the customer pay double). Sure, your idea allows for 1 gp, but it also allows for (total -1 gp), so they basically do the same. Neither of them stops RWTing.

 

 

But by the same yardstick, it's even more possible for RWTing to take place now. How difficult would it be for someone to buy 10 kills of over 76k from a RWT? It's a lot easier and a lot cheaper for the RWTs to do that, and also makes it possible for friends to kill friends for drops.

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1) ... it's even more possible for RWTing to take place now.

2) How difficult would it be for someone to buy 10 kills of over 76k from a RWT? It's a lot easier and a lot cheaper for the RWTs to do that, and also makes it possible for friends to kill friends for drops.

1) I know, that's why I started this thread.

2) I recognize that your solution would mean more loses for RWTers, but they do not care! They'll just ask double or triple the money the are asking now. The point of this thread is to come up with a way to completely stop RWTing.

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