On Rebellion

[fakeitormakeit2]

Let me quote the most famous verse of the Bible (this is from my memory so may not be perfectly verbatim): "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16).

 

As the Bible shows, God's requirement for everlasting life according to Christian's (FYI I'm Catholic, so I am only representing Catholicism in this post and not necessarily all religions, particularly fundamentalists) isn't to be sinless. It's to believe in Him. Now does that mean that Hindus and Buddhists won't get to heaven according to Christians because they don't believe in one all-powerful God? I don't think so; the religious ones still live virtuous lives and pursue true goodness (nirvana, whatever you want to call it). So, do people who pursue virtuous lives and still have faith in some kind of god go to heaven? Yes. Do people who believe in a god but still have some sins go to heaven? Yes, or else heaven would be pretty empty because I can only think of one sinless human who ever walked the earth, and He happened to be the Son of God anyway. Do people who reject all forms of God and yet still pursue a moral life go to heaven? This is where it get's icky, but I would have to say no. Flame me all you want (because obviously an atheist would care about whether I'd say they were going to hell), but I would think the greatest sin of all is to reject God himself (or whatever form of God you were introduced to). Even the most severe of sins like murder can be forgiven in this life and the sinner can go to heaven (in the Catholic faith there is Confession, I'm not sure about other faiths). So whether they had free will or not by the original post's perspective, they had a chance to be forgiven for it (at this point someone is going to be obliged to respond that acccording to OP's post, their decision to accept forgiveness would have already been decided. I have no answer for that, I leave that matter to what I've been tought about faith).

 

But since I'm Catholic, I still believe in free will. I don't think God would create people who had no hope of salvation to begin with. That's one of the most fundamental beliefs of the Catholic church. If there was no free will, there would be no Catholic Church, so you're going have to try pretty hard to make me reject my entire faith and agree that free will is nonexistant. As for sins, Catholics believe in a place called Purgatory which is where moral people with some venial sins go to repent for them, and then they go to heaven. If you have a moral sin on your conscience when you die (a serious sin, like murder or adultery), you go straight to hell UNLESS you go to confession during your lifetime to repent. So, even for the most serious sinners, there is hope. On top of all that, God had His only son die for each and every one of us. It would have been a pointless sacrifice if he knew he was creating people to go to hell anyway. So, the only excuse not to go to heaven is if you totally rejected God, this not caring whether you go to hell and not having the option to repent for sins.

 

So to conclude, I completely disagree with the belief in no free will and humans being created just to go to hell. It just doesn't register with me at all, probably because I've tried to lead a religious life and religion wouldn't make sense with those beliefs established. The mission of Catholicism is to reject those views and unite the world (Catholic mean universal in Greek or some other ancient language). So now for the icky, awkward question I know someone is thinking: in a Catholic's view, is there any hope for OP if he rejects God (since we are assuming God exists)? I think my answer is pretty clear. Let the flaming commence.

 

I find it funny that you use that quote. There's actually a debated that started back on on exactly what they mean by someone who "believes" in God. In my understanding of theology I say "believe" is just used as someone who accepts good (and since God=good, they except God by extension without having to believe in the presence of God). But yes I rather like your post :P

[Omar]

Warren, what do you think makes people who they are? What gives them their personality and their way of judging?

[meol]

[...]Now does that mean that Hindus and Buddhists won't get to heaven according to Christians because they don't believe in one all-powerful God? I don't think so; the religious ones still live virtuous lives and pursue true goodness (nirvana, whatever you want to call it). So, do people who pursue virtuous lives and still have faith in some kind of god go to heaven? Yes.

[...]

Do people who reject all forms of God and yet still pursue a moral life go to heaven? This is where it get's icky, but I would have to say no. Flame me all you want (because obviously an atheist would care about whether I'd say they were going to hell), but I would think the greatest sin of all is to reject God himself (or whatever form of God you were introduced to).

You are basically saying that, for example, a virtuous Buddhist could still go to the Christian heaven, but a virtuous atheist could not, because he has rejected God, right?

 

Then, do you realise that a large part of Buddhists don't believe in an creator God? They are, in that sense, atheists. What about them? Where lies the boundary for you?

[Distracted]

[...]Now does that mean that Hindus and Buddhists won't get to heaven according to Christians because they don't believe in one all-powerful God? I don't think so; the religious ones still live virtuous lives and pursue true goodness (nirvana, whatever you want to call it). So, do people who pursue virtuous lives and still have faith in some kind of god go to heaven? Yes.

[...]

Do people who reject all forms of God and yet still pursue a moral life go to heaven? This is where it get's icky, but I would have to say no. Flame me all you want (because obviously an atheist would care about whether I'd say they were going to hell), but I would think the greatest sin of all is to reject God himself (or whatever form of God you were introduced to).

You are basically saying that, for example, a virtuous Buddhist could still go to the Christian heaven, but a virtuous atheist could not, because he has rejected God, right?

 

Then, do you realise that a large part of Buddhists don't believe in an creator God? They are, in that sense, atheists. What about them? Where lies the boundary for you?

 

I'm not speaking for Warren, btw.

 

In my religion (Coptic Orthodox Christianity), God is all that is good, and all that is evil is not God. Basically, the way I see it, John 3:16 would mean you just follow God, follow all that is good. This is just the core, I could go on about this, but don't feel like it.

[Dupin]

[...]Now does that mean that Hindus and Buddhists won't get to heaven according to Christians because they don't believe in one all-powerful God? I don't think so; the religious ones still live virtuous lives and pursue true goodness (nirvana, whatever you want to call it). So, do people who pursue virtuous lives and still have faith in some kind of god go to heaven? Yes.

[...]

Do people who reject all forms of God and yet still pursue a moral life go to heaven? This is where it get's icky, but I would have to say no. Flame me all you want (because obviously an atheist would care about whether I'd say they were going to hell), but I would think the greatest sin of all is to reject God himself (or whatever form of God you were introduced to).

You are basically saying that, for example, a virtuous Buddhist could still go to the Christian heaven, but a virtuous atheist could not, because he has rejected God, right?

 

Then, do you realise that a large part of Buddhists don't believe in an creator God? They are, in that sense, atheists. What about them? Where lies the boundary for you?

 

I'm not speaking for Warren, btw.

 

In my religion (Coptic Orthodox Christianity), God is all that is good, and all that is evil is not God. Basically, the way I see it, John 3:16 would mean you just follow God, follow all that is good. This is just the core, I could go on about this, but don't feel like it.

 

I think that a few of the religious posts missed an important point: As far as I know, most religions claim that their god is all-knowing and all-powerful. Therefore, would that god not have the choice to cause or prevent the action? How can a human have free choice if "God" guides that choice, creates all experiences considered in the choice, and creates the opportunity to make the choice?

 

For example, I could choose to attempt to cross a busy street in Boston while the sign says "Don't Cross". That choice would have been based on my past experiences of safely crossing at one of these times, which would have been created by an all-powerful god. The opportunity to cross the street at the time would have also been created by God, as would the outcome.

 

 

And on an Atheist who pursues "good" going to Heaven: How do you suggest that Atheist knows what is good? I can't exactly ask this question about a religious person, as they completely trust the judgement of their god. A few pages back somebody said that this question is unimportant because right and wrong are decided by the entire population. But how does each member of the population know what is right? And if everyone believed that what they are told is what is right, then humans would never change. The most important and influential humans are the ones who stood up against the common ideas and changed those ideas.

[Alg]

So to conclude, I completely disagree with the belief in no free will and humans being created just to go to hell. It just doesn't register with me at all, probably because I've tried to lead a religious life and religion wouldn't make sense with those beliefs established. The mission of Catholicism is to reject those views and unite the world (Catholic mean universal in Greek or some other ancient language). So now for the icky, awkward question I know someone is thinking: in a Catholic's view, is there any hope for OP if he rejects God (since we are assuming God exists)? I think my answer is pretty clear. Let the flaming commence.

I'd think it isn't so much as rejection of God, but rebellion against Him. In order to do so you would at least have to acknowledge His existence. The choice then is if you would follow a God that is in your eyes, unjust.

 

It would be interesting to see a response from someone who is assuming that s/he would go to heaven, because then the question would be if they would give up eternal happiness for justice.

[fakeitormakeit2]

Second, we still control ourselves is what I'm trying to say. You're just looking at free-will in an entirely irrelevant way to humans: so what if the 1st domino caused the last one to fall? The second to last is the only relevant one.

Once you start criticizing laws of the universe, you know nothing productive will come out of it.

 

Yes, this way of thinking is entirely irrelevant to us, here and now-- because we feel as if we are choosing what we do. But it's completely relevant if we face an eternity of punishment for our decisions. On a scale as grand as one with a Universal creator and an eternal afterlife, these things need to be taken into account--because the implication is that we were created to go somewhere based on... what? You'd think it'd be the choices you make, but really, it's not.

 

To say that we had free, free will, and that we could change the shape and function of different parts of our brains at our wills would be to ascribe God-like qualities to us. We aren't supposed to be able to shift the laws of physics with our mind.

 

As for the religions in which, yes, the majority of humanity is already destined for Hell-- would you, if you were a heaven-goer, feel bad about this?

Would you try and act to help the Hell-goers, and try to defy God (however futile this action may be?).

 

That is what is what the Communion of Saints is for in the Catholic Church & several other churches. They defy, because that would be disrespectful and constitute an evil action since God is good, they intercede on behalf of those souls in need.

 

Now this discussion is going from logic to misinterpretation/interpretation of wording recalled from thought and very poorly translated from its original language. To completely understand the meaning of what is meant by the different Churches you must know the mentality in which each word is said.

 

A good example of that would be "believe". When stated that you must believe in Him or you'll burn, people normally think of the definition of to believe IN, but it is more along the lines of having confidence in the assertions of morals rather then needing to be persuaded of His existence.

 

And oh no, the Copts found Tip.It 0.0.... How do they keep finding me ....lol

[Distracted]

Second, we still control ourselves is what I'm trying to say. You're just looking at free-will in an entirely irrelevant way to humans: so what if the 1st domino caused the last one to fall? The second to last is the only relevant one.

Once you start criticizing laws of the universe, you know nothing productive will come out of it.

 

Yes, this way of thinking is entirely irrelevant to us, here and now-- because we feel as if we are choosing what we do. But it's completely relevant if we face an eternity of punishment for our decisions. On a scale as grand as one with a Universal creator and an eternal afterlife, these things need to be taken into account--because the implication is that we were created to go somewhere based on... what? You'd think it'd be the choices you make, but really, it's not.

 

To say that we had free, free will, and that we could change the shape and function of different parts of our brains at our wills would be to ascribe God-like qualities to us. We aren't supposed to be able to shift the laws of physics with our mind.

 

As for the religions in which, yes, the majority of humanity is already destined for Hell-- would you, if you were a heaven-goer, feel bad about this?

Would you try and act to help the Hell-goers, and try to defy God (however futile this action may be?).

 

That is what is what the Communion of Saints is for in the Catholic Church & several other churches. They defy, because that would be disrespectful and constitute an evil action since God is good, they intercede on behalf of those souls in need.

 

Now this discussion is going from logic to misinterpretation/interpretation of wording recalled from thought and very poorly translated from its original language. To completely understand the meaning of what is meant by the different Churches you must know the mentality in which each word is said.

 

A good example of that would be "believe". When stated that you must believe in Him or you'll burn, people normally think of the definition of to believe IN, but it is more along the lines of having confidence in the assertions of morals rather then needing to be persuaded of His existence.

 

And oh no, the Copts found Tip.It 0.0.... How do they keep finding me ....lol

 

What? There are actually other Copts here?

[Saru Inc]

Let me quote the most famous verse of the Bible (this is from my memory so may not be perfectly verbatim): "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16).

 

As the Bible shows, God's requirement for everlasting life according to Christian's (FYI I'm Catholic, so I am only representing Catholicism in this post and not necessarily all religions, particularly fundamentalists) isn't to be sinless. It's to believe in Him. Now does that mean that Hindus and Buddhists won't get to heaven according to Christians because they don't believe in one all-powerful God? I don't think so; the religious ones still live virtuous lives and pursue true goodness (nirvana, whatever you want to call it). So, do people who pursue virtuous lives and still have faith in some kind of god go to heaven? Yes. Do people who believe in a god but still have some sins go to heaven? Yes, or else heaven would be pretty empty because I can only think of one sinless human who ever walked the earth, and He happened to be the Son of God anyway. Do people who reject all forms of God and yet still pursue a moral life go to heaven? This is where it get's icky, but I would have to say no. Flame me all you want (because obviously an atheist would care about whether I'd say they were going to hell), but I would think the greatest sin of all is to reject God himself (or whatever form of God you were introduced to). Even the most severe of sins like murder can be forgiven in this life and the sinner can go to heaven (in the Catholic faith there is Confession, I'm not sure about other faiths). So whether they had free will or not by the original post's perspective, they had a chance to be forgiven for it (at this point someone is going to be obliged to respond that acccording to OP's post, their decision to accept forgiveness would have already been decided. I have no answer for that, I leave that matter to what I've been tought about faith).

 

But since I'm Catholic, I still believe in free will. I don't think God would create people who had no hope of salvation to begin with. That's one of the most fundamental beliefs of the Catholic church. If there was no free will, there would be no Catholic Church, so you're going have to try pretty hard to make me reject my entire faith and agree that free will is nonexistant. As for sins, Catholics believe in a place called Purgatory which is where moral people with some venial sins go to repent for them, and then they go to heaven. If you have a moral sin on your conscience when you die (a serious sin, like murder or adultery), you go straight to hell UNLESS you go to confession during your lifetime to repent. So, even for the most serious sinners, there is hope. On top of all that, God had His only son die for each and every one of us. It would have been a pointless sacrifice if he knew he was creating people to go to hell anyway. So, the only excuse not to go to heaven is if you totally rejected God, this not caring whether you go to hell and not having the option to repent for sins.

 

So to conclude, I completely disagree with the belief in no free will and humans being created just to go to hell. It just doesn't register with me at all, probably because I've tried to lead a religious life and religion wouldn't make sense with those beliefs established. The mission of Catholicism is to reject those views and unite the world (Catholic mean universal in Greek or some other ancient language). So now for the icky, awkward question I know someone is thinking: in a Catholic's view, is there any hope for OP if he rejects God (since we are assuming God exists)? I think my answer is pretty clear. Let the flaming commence.

 

 

tbh, tl;dr.

 

Well I read the first bit which is what I'm responding to. Think of it like this.

 

Your friend God, is hosting a party, all of his friends are invited it's gonna be a massive shindig. Unfortunately, only his friends (the Christians) are invited cuz, well, it is his party and he doesn't want strangers. Now you have a friend who really is a good person, freinds with everyone, volunteers, donates, but unfortunately, he cannot come into the party. Why? your friend doesn't know him, and the party is for his friends only, it doesn't matter if he led a good life, or if he is truly philanthropic and kind, he doesn't know your friend, so he can't come in. Thats what I and most Christians believe, you CAN be a great person, caring, friendly, feed the poor, etc. etc. etc. but if you're a taoist, or a Buddhist you will go to hell. I mean does that sound just? [bleep] no, but who says we as humans know what true justice is? Maybe are prejudice even subliminally blinds us from seeing true justice, so we conceive God to be a douchebag, when maybe he's just being strict in his convictions.