On Rebellion

[EdgedThesis]

What is the conscience if not an instinctual or hard-learned body of social rules?

Just because we have the ability to observe and theorize about our bodily processes and thoughts does not make those processes transcendent.

[warri0r45]

A bunch of very deep thoughts based on completely ridiculous assumptions.

 

On an unrelated note, do you have any strange birthmarks or unnatural abilities? :P

 

I think this discussion could lead into a much deeper one: What is morality? How do we know that the things written in a book are what God, or Allah, or Jesus, or whoever said? And if we have no bible, what tells us the difference between right and wrong?

 

The Torah, Qu'ran, basically the other religious books.

 

Lol, I meant bible in a broad sense, so as to include those books. I guess it should have been phrased: If there is not greater power or diety, nor any works or religions that can be trusted as "correct", then how do we determine right from wrong?

 

Naturally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BThmL-Td-IE

 

Interesting, but it seems to me that idea picks and chooses certain facts. I'm not expert on animals and nature, but aren't there spiders who eat their babies? If you check out a few of the comments, you'll see that the guy is basically getting critisized - In other words, that idea is far from proven.

 

Picking and choosing? He states clearly that harsh competition is part of natural selection as well. In any case, it's good to get the other side of the story and counter anyone who incorrectly things natural selection = everyone for themselves. If you think about it, he makes a good point - we can get further as a species if we cooperate, so naturally that's what we'll tend towards through evolution.

 

Also, this isn't his idea, it's an area of scientific research. A few people disputing it in youtube comments is hardly foolproof scientific criticism.

 

As for the topic, I'm still not 100% sure about determinism. It seems perfectly sensible, but I read an article about the philosophical criticisms of it, and it largely went over my head. I'll have to go over it again before I can wrap my head around it fully. For the sake of the argument, though, let's assume that determinism is true. In that case, I agree with the OP - any god who judges our actions and punishes/rewards accordingly is basically punishing/rewarding rocks for falling and water for flowing down a stream.

[EdgedThesis]

Well, the criticisms I've seen involve a 'dual-substance' theory.

That is, the theory that we are composed of crude physical matter as well as ethereal substance--so we'd have a 'mind' and then separate from that a 'brain'.

 

Seems like one huge rationalization to me. The people who I've seen use that argument do so in order to explain our sense of freedom--

but the thing is our sense of freedom can also be a function of how we are physically developed.

 

I just started reading 'The Introduction to the Philosophy of the Mind' to get a better grasp for their arguments--its written by the dualist E.J Lowe.

[Distracted]

This is a response to the OP's first post btw.

 

So you claim you have no free will? You claim that after reading this, you can't randomly decide to read a book or jump off a bridge or anything?

You can, can't you? It's free will to be able to do whatever you want next. Now why can't you ask for forgiveness with God? Your idea of God is ridiculous, He doesn't create humans to throw in hell. He actually gives human free will, which is clear in Genesis. Humans have the free will to choose for Him, for life (what you call heaven), or not, in which case they choose for death (hell). He loves all humans. God is not judgmental; if you make a mistake, He will not turn your back on you, unless you turned your back on Him. If you ask for forgiveness, it shall be granted. You think that christians have to live their whole life without ever sinning to go into heaven? They don't, they just need to repent, and that is something you have control over. You are the one that chooses if you repent, not any actions that are happening around you.

[l0rd]

What is the conscience if not an instinctual or hard-learned body of social rules?

Just because we have the ability to observe and theorize about our bodily processes and thoughts does not make those processes transcendent.

Yes, but the fact that we have the ability to observe and theorize about these things further proves the uniqueness of the human mind. Of course, like all animals, we have certain psychological traits passed onto us because of their evolutionary benefit to our species, but on top of that there is also a sense of interpretation—a choosing of the subjective "right" over the subjective "wrong"—which is named and defined as morality. This can only be present in a mind where things such as self-awareness, a developed consciousness, and other things mostly limited to humans are found.

[Zierro]

It's free will to be able to do whatever you want next.

 

In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create a universe. We do the things we do because of our genetic makeup and our environment. The human choice really is nothing more than a delusion. To say we have freewill is to say our choice comes from scratch, but it doesn't. You were born a certain way or were exposed to a certain stimuli in your lifetime which caused you to make that "choice". The philosophy of nihilism really hits the nail on the head - life is pointless.

 

BUT... to live that way just isn't healthy and overall isn't very desirable for your average human being. That's one of the main reasons why people drink and do drugs. It distorts reality for us because reality is too [cabbage]ty to deal with. Delusion isn't always a bad thing. Our race's happiness is founded on it. We're just bacteria of the earth each equipped with biological tricks called "egos" which delude us into thinking we're something more important than the germs we're stepping on, which is actually quite favorable when it comes to our race's survival. And that's where religion comes into play.

[Hawks]

To the original question: Yes I would.

 

This also brings up more things, like the question of science. Those who truly believe we have no free will by the will of god should be able to believe that any scientific discovery made is by the will of god and as such should not be repressed; but most don't. In Angels and Demons there's a scientist working at CERN who is also a Catholic priest of some sort. He discovers antimatter and feels that it was by the will of god. Then he gets killed by some guys who want to use it to blow up the Vatican (and who don't believe in god in this way).

 

Humans are, by nature, chaotic. As a species, we have the good people, the bad people, and the people who only work for their own benefit. (Which brings up the whole good vs. evil bit). Due to the chaos of the general world I think that, if you are agnostic/atheist, you would be willing to act in whichever way you wanted at the given time; you are truly 'chaotic'. (You can still have values which govern your decisions, but you're more rational in your thought; you're not going to jump off a cliff because god told you to.) If you follow a deity, you don't have that true choice; you must follow your religion. You can think that you have a choice, but in following a god, you have made the one choice that you 'can' (it can be said that you can't even make that choice).

 

[spoiler=Lyrics to 'Freewill' by Rush]

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance take,

A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.

 

A planet of playthings,

We dance on the strings

Of powers we cannot perceive

"The stars aren't aligned,

Or the gods are malign..."

Blame is better to give than receive.

 

Chorus

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;

I will choose a path that's clear

I will choose freewill.

 

There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,

The cards were stacked against them; they weren't born in Lotusland.

 

All preordained

A prisoner in chains

A victim of venomous fate.

Kicked in the face,

You can't pray for a place

In heaven's unearthly estate.

 

Chorus

 

Each of us

A cell of awareness

Imperfect and incomplete.

Genetic blends

With uncertain ends

On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.

 

Chorus

 

 

 

 

I am agnostic, but I am leaning to atheist.

[exodus199]

It's free will to be able to do whatever you want next.

 

In order to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create a universe. We do the things we do because of our genetic makeup and our environment. The human choice really is nothing more than a delusion. To say we have freewill is to say our choice comes from scratch, but it doesn't. You were born a certain way or were exposed to a certain stimuli in your lifetime which caused you to make that "choice". The philosophy of nihilism really hits the nail on the head - life is pointless.

 

BUT... to live that way just isn't healthy and overall isn't very desirable for your average human being. That's one of the main reasons why people drink and do drugs. It distorts reality for us because reality is too [cabbage]ty to deal with. Delusion isn't always a bad thing. Our race's happiness is founded on it. We're just bacteria of the earth each equipped with biological tricks called "egos" which delude us into thinking we're something more important than the germs we're stepping on, which is actually quite favorable when it comes to our race's survival. And that's where religion comes into play.

 

I agree with all of that.

[fakeitormakeit2]

*I speak from the perspective of my obscure Eastern religion.

 

You choosing not to follow God does not make you a sinner. It is when you choose to not "follow Him" in regards to He being a collective of "justice and goodness". The reason why there is a myth in which "Satan"(The collective of evil) is banished isn't because he refuses to follow God in terms of allegiance, it is because he tries to become "greater then God(the collective good)" in a sense were he could do as he pleased and deem it good.

 

I believe in the "justice" of God, as all good acts reflect "God", the collection of our "goodness, sincerity, justice" so to speak. However God's justice is not a human justice. There is a parable by one of my favorite philosophers called 'War' about a theft who goes to a prince and asks him to judge a case in which he went to steal from a money changer's shop and instead he entered the weaver's shop and his sewing needles gouged out of one his eyes. The prince sent for the weaver and was going to have one of his eyes taken out. But the weaver says this is just, but the cobbler, my neighbor only needs one eye for his trade, unlike me who needs both. So the prince has the cobbler's eye ripped out and the last line is "and justice was satisfied". The justice of God is not so much like weight on a scale as it is, you gave it your all.

 

But in regards to the over mysticism of what modern thought does to life, it is very sad. Thoughts of life being pointless and waiting for an afterlife is very stupid, as an afterlife would only be a continuation of our lives, so we must live our lives with a good mentality but we must also have fun. Idleness is greatly despised in my culture, and it includes just waiting around for the end. Spirit and body are seen as one whole and therefore we cannot separate afterlife and now, but we must live sincerely and we zeal.

 

And lastly, just because you follow God doesn't mean you're any better. If you do evil acts, doesn't matter you pray every day.

 

"Religion is not only going to the temple to pray. You daily life is your temple and your religion. Whenever your in it, take with you your all."

 

 

 

Now in terms to free will, yes we have it. We have the power to change our course of action. Some may argue if there is an all knowing God who knows what you will do there is no free will, but He is also seen as past present and future all at once. therefore when you commit an action it is still to happen, it is happening and it already happened because He is outside time, instead of seeing time as a line He sees it as a circle, as He Himself is a collective.

[EdgedThesis]

Ah, but the argument is that the laws of cause and effect (as we know them from our three-dimensional perspective) ultimately bind our each and every decision.

 

From the godly perspective you present, one in four dimensions, the argument grows clearer--you could say that if the Universe (all times and all places) was created as whole in one instant , then God crafted us as statues caught in a tableau of sin.

 

If this is the case, we see that if there truly is a heaven or hell, God would arbitrarily be picking and choosing based on even more arbitrary rules.

 

Maybe this is 'just' to Him, but to me and maybe to others, it is not.

[fakeitormakeit2]

To say we have been made in a tableau of sin is a rather pessimistic assumption. Humans are not intrinsically evil. Naturally a human demonstrates both traits of destruction to others and the will to help others grow. In terms of science, it would only make sense as evolutionary traits, since we are social animals, to say humans lean towards more the nurturing of others because we try to help our entire society advance.

 

When you say He crafts us, that he does. But he does not add details. He creates our possibility to live, He created whatever materials that evolved into the modern world. He does not choose our actions, He does not choose who shall be right and who shall be wrong. And because God is an infinite and unrestricted being He need not use arbitration or a set standard to judge all people. If He was to judge people, He would go by each and everyone's sincerity. Sinning is human and everyone does it. "The first shall be last and the last shall be first" may sound familiar to you. It references those who are "holy" will not necessarily be as great as those who sinned and committed heavy wrongs and were judged by the "holy people" but in the end they tried to do what was right and do good.

 

As I said in my previous post, God doesn't have the sense of "justice" humans have.

Edited December 29, 2009 by fakeitormakeit2

[Omar]

On free will - while it is true that a person's thoughts and actions are determined by his or her background and environment, which is completely out of that person's control, he or she is still responsible for his or her actions. Otherwise, what would be the difference between each person? If you take away a person's actions, background, and environment - the things you claim are uncontrollable - then all you're left with is....nothing?

At the base, not everyone is built the same. And as much as the way they're built may be out of their control, and by extension their decisions and actions, what they do still affect us, for better or for worse. And that is how we judge them, simply for personal gain, to know if they'll have a good or bad impact on us.

I think.

[Distracted]

To say we have been made in a tableau of sin is a rather pessimistic assumption. Humans are not intrinsically evil. Naturally a human demonstrates both traits of destruction to others and the will to help others grow. In terms of science, it would only make sense as evolutionary traits, since we are social animals, to say humans lean towards more the nurturing of others because we try to help our entire society advance.

 

When you say He crafts us, that he does. But he does not add details. He creates our possibility to live, He created whatever materials that evolved into the modern world. He does not choose our actions, He does not choose who shall be right and who shall be wrong. And because God is an infinite and unrestricted being He need not use arbitration or a set standard to judge all people. If He was to judge people, He would go by each and everyone's sincerity. Sinning is human and everyone does it. "The first shall be last and the last shall be first" may sound familiar to you. It references those who are "holy" will not necessarily be as great as those who sinned and committed heavy wrongs and were judged by the "holy people" but in the end they tried to do what was right and do good.

 

As I said in my previous post, God doesn't have the sense of "justice" humans have.

 

I must say I agree with most things you're saying here. Though may I ask what the Eastern religion you mentioned in your first post is?

[Omar]

When you say He crafts us, that he does. But he does not add details. He creates our possibility to live, He created whatever materials that evolved into the modern world. He does not choose our actions, He does not choose who shall be right and who shall be wrong.

But even if he only crafts us, he puts us in situations, gives us opportunities, etc. You're free to disagree with this, but Robert Owen once said that Man is a creature of circumstances. So the circumstances that surround us during our lives make us what we are. So indirectly, God does add details.

[EdgedThesis]

To say we have been made in a tableau of sin is a rather pessimistic assumption. Humans are not intrinsically evil.

 

Oh I never meant to say humans are intrinsically evil.

I believe the complete opposite of that, actually.

 

What I meant to say is that if the Universe, in totality (that is, all instances and all locations and all things and all energies), was created in one divine instant, then God has essentially already crafted all humans in each and every moment of their lives.

 

So if you follow the life of a murderer, you could say that his defining moment--the one where he sinks his blade into his victim's flesh--was sculpted and painted in full detail by a knowing god.

 

This is something you can imagine if you see God as the extra-temporal being you describe.

 

And to answer Fadooda's question for you, I think you said you were a Middle Eastern Christian using Aramaic texts?

[No_99_Melee]

Well regarding your thoughts on free will you must consider that everything done around you causing you to do certain things was also caused by something else. In order for a reaction to occur an action must have taken place and an action had to have taken place upon that action etc. etc.. We finally get down to the first action to ever occur causing all other reactions to occur until now. This is called the first push. The beginning push in the universe brought you to where you are today. An initial push cannot have been started without an outside force. Therefore you must believe in God because there would be no other explanation for an outside force to cause the initial push.

[fakeitormakeit2]

To Fadooda's Question:

 

I am a Maronite. We are Christians under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch and he is in communion with the Bishop of Rome, technically because of this I am an "Eastern Rite" Catholic. Our teachings are retained intact from the way Jesus mentioned them, uncorrupted by Latin thought, and we are educated to be leaders in matters of law & war, expansive in knowledge and do good to as many people regardless of allegiance of religion. Sadly there's only 3.1mil Maronites left.

 

But someone who I find who is exemplar of the Maronite way, he himself was a Maronite, actor Danny Thomas who founded St. Jude.

 

Sorry for off-topicness.

[EdgedThesis]

Well regarding your thoughts on free will you must consider that everything done around you causing you to do certain things was also caused by something else. In order for a reaction to occur an action must have taken place and an action had to have taken place upon that action etc. etc.. We finally get down to the first action to ever occur causing all other reactions to occur until now. This is called the first push. The beginning push in the universe brought you to where you are today. An initial push cannot have been started without an outside force. Therefore you must believe in God because there would be no other explanation for an outside force to cause the initial push.

 

Remember in this topic we are already assuming that God exists.

It's just a matter of who will rebel against him, and why.

It's a matter of his justice, or lack thereof.

[Saru Inc]

So your post just got me thinking on free will.

Does it, at it's base really exist? In my opinion, probably not. But, it doesn't matter. We'll never feel the difference.

Exactly. We could be thinking that we're choosing our actions without realizing that someone/thing else did long before we were born. If that's the case though, who/whatever did probably wouldn't have resigned most of us to eternal suffering on the basis of his/her/its own plan for our lives unless he/she/it was particularly sadistic...

 

 

Old news is old.

 

 

And also, @ TC, who says you're being oppressed by choosing to worship the Christian God presuming he's real? Your whole quasi argument is pretty biased, which while being completely understandable, seeing as you stated it is an opinionated piece. Well... I guess I don't really get what you're trying to prove... Burn in hell, great, you're not gonna be a martyr no one will give two [cabbage]s to be completely honest.

[EdgedThesis]

Maybe no one will give two [cabbage]s, sure.

Either way it makes for a discussion.

Offering new interpretations of old beliefs seemed like a cool thing to do, so I ran with it.

You go from a body of text that inspires complete faith in a God, spin it with different context, and you want to rebel.

Interesting to me, in any case.

 

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just putting up a stance, and asking people to support or attack it.

This is my stance. If no one cares I'd be left powerless with my words, but it'd still be my stance, however painful.

[MisterGreen]

I personally believe God knows everything you can do, not everything you will do. Destiny has more to do with the oppurtunities(choices) in someone's life and whether or not you choose to do something about it. Just my two cents.

[Omar]

Remember in this topic we are already assuming that God exists.

It's just a matter of who will rebel against him, and why.

It's a matter of his justice, or lack thereof.

 

I wouldn't rebel against God because for all I know, my way of judging is flawed. There's always a chance that I'm wrong, but there is none that God is.

[Distracted]

To Fadooda's Question:I am a Maronite. We are Christians under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of Antioch and he is in communion with the Bishop of Rome, technically because of this I am an "Eastern Rite" Catholic. Our teachings are retained intact from the way Jesus mentioned them, uncorrupted by Latin thought, and we are educated to be leaders in matters of law & war, expansive in knowledge and do good to as many people regardless of allegiance of religion. Sadly there's only 3.1mil Maronites left.But someone who I find who is exemplar of the Maronite way, he himself was a Maronite, actor Danny Thomas who founded St. Jude.Sorry for off-topicness.

I can't say I've heard of the Maronites, but it sounds fascinating, from this short description I can notice a few similarities with my religion. Anyway, enough off-topicness lol.

 

Back on topic, with this action-reaction thing, sure, every action has a reaction, but with humans, this isn't as simple. Warming up water will cause it to boil, this is a fact, a reaction (boiling) to the action (heating it up.) This isn't so simple with human beings: Tom cried after he got hit. The reaction here is the crying, a reaction to the hitting, the action here. Now, Tom's brother might react differently to the same action, for example by hitting back. In other words, humans aren't predictable, while we all know that water will boil when he heat it up to 100°C, we have no idea of what'll happen when he hit someone, or when we say something to someone.

What I'm trying to say here is that there is an action-reaction chain, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything. And like I've mentioned in my previous post, God is forgiving, unlike humans. You probably know the story of Jesus being the shepherd of a herd of 100 sheep. One of them ran off, and He left the other 99 to help it. This means that if you make a mistake, you will still be called on by God, and if you truly repent and regret your actions (and ofcourse improve your life) you will be forgiven.

[warren211]

Let me quote the most famous verse of the Bible (this is from my memory so may not be perfectly verbatim): "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". (John 3:16).

 

As the Bible shows, God's requirement for everlasting life according to Christian's (FYI I'm Catholic, so I am only representing Catholicism in this post and not necessarily all religions, particularly fundamentalists) isn't to be sinless. It's to believe in Him. Now does that mean that Hindus and Buddhists won't get to heaven according to Christians because they don't believe in one all-powerful God? I don't think so; the religious ones still live virtuous lives and pursue true goodness (nirvana, whatever you want to call it). So, do people who pursue virtuous lives and still have faith in some kind of god go to heaven? Yes. Do people who believe in a god but still have some sins go to heaven? Yes, or else heaven would be pretty empty because I can only think of one sinless human who ever walked the earth, and He happened to be the Son of God anyway. Do people who reject all forms of God and yet still pursue a moral life go to heaven? This is where it get's icky, but I would have to say no. Flame me all you want (because obviously an atheist would care about whether I'd say they were going to hell), but I would think the greatest sin of all is to reject God himself (or whatever form of God you were introduced to). Even the most severe of sins like murder can be forgiven in this life and the sinner can go to heaven (in the Catholic faith there is Confession, I'm not sure about other faiths). So whether they had free will or not by the original post's perspective, they had a chance to be forgiven for it (at this point someone is going to be obliged to respond that acccording to OP's post, their decision to accept forgiveness would have already been decided. I have no answer for that, I leave that matter to what I've been tought about faith).

 

But since I'm Catholic, I still believe in free will. I don't think God would create people who had no hope of salvation to begin with. That's one of the most fundamental beliefs of the Catholic church. If there was no free will, there would be no Catholic Church, so you're going have to try pretty hard to make me reject my entire faith and agree that free will is nonexistant. As for sins, Catholics believe in a place called Purgatory which is where moral people with some venial sins go to repent for them, and then they go to heaven. If you have a moral sin on your conscience when you die (a serious sin, like murder or adultery), you go straight to hell UNLESS you go to confession during your lifetime to repent. So, even for the most serious sinners, there is hope. On top of all that, God had His only son die for each and every one of us. It would have been a pointless sacrifice if he knew he was creating people to go to hell anyway. So, the only excuse not to go to heaven is if you totally rejected God, this not caring whether you go to hell and not having the option to repent for sins.

 

So to conclude, I completely disagree with the belief in no free will and humans being created just to go to hell. It just doesn't register with me at all, probably because I've tried to lead a religious life and religion wouldn't make sense with those beliefs established. The mission of Catholicism is to reject those views and unite the world (Catholic mean universal in Greek or some other ancient language). So now for the icky, awkward question I know someone is thinking: in a Catholic's view, is there any hope for OP if he rejects God (since we are assuming God exists)? I think my answer is pretty clear. Let the flaming commence.

[Omar]

In other words, humans aren't predictable

...because we don't have access to all the data that causes them to react in a certain way. They're predictable to an extent, if you ask a convict if he'd rather be let free or be hung (unlikely, I know, it's just for the sake of example), you know that he's most likely to ask to be let loose, unless something about the way he has lived and the way he was crafted changes his weighing of pros and cons. God is all-knowing, and he knows this data if he is extra-temporal.