The Tip.it Tournament & Its Flaw

[infinitone]

Not to add additional stress to TICT organizers but after today's redraw i realized a flaw that should be addressed.

 

The flaw is teams.

 

By allowing teams to take part just as a clan would, contending with each other, you will be allowing inaccuracy in match results and eventually in competition results. Lets take an example of the draw:

The Titans + Blacknights v Knights of Order + Legends Never Die

 

So you got 2 clans v a clan & a team. I see 2 issues here:

 

A Weakened Team / Bluffed Memberlist

What happens in the circumstance of a team being composed of a clan that they are facing. Eg. what happens if majority of LND is made up of TT members. So, instinctively you'd expect them all to flock to TT's side. Which leaves LND weak. Which renders the system of matching and teaming draws solely on memberlist #/cb avg flawed. Because you can look at a team's memberlist and be like 'O it has a whole lot of members and a high cb', then again that memberlist is inaccurate in the previously mentioned circumstance where majority of the team's members will be gone do to their own clan's war. You might argue, 'well of course LND is not made up of TT.' That was an example genius. It could be that LND's attending members to that war be from TT/BK/KO, etc.

 

A Threat to Clans

Using the same 2 clan v 1 clan and team example. What happens when LND has members of a rival clan to KO's? Do you really expect those LND members to show up and aid KO in their fight whilst their home base clan has a rivalry with KO? The answer is no. Which means KO + LND will be a weak contender against TT + BK and this is again due to basing matches and teams on memberlist #/cb avg.

 

The solution?

 

Make 2 separate competitions. One solely for clans. One solely for teams. Not only does it weaken a team but it also poses a threat to clans (as stated above).

[DJJules]

This tourney was a fail from the start when they started accepting teams and also not seperating the leagues.

 

GG

[pumkinpie37]

I just have a problem with the redraw on the 2 vs 2, we got everything set up with the clan who we were supposed to fight and our allies as well as their allies so now we have to do a re-draw

[imblooded]

I like the redraw

 

 

TK + VR :thumbsup:

[Kimberly]

Mind you, this is my personal opinion, but...

 

With all due respect, if you're joining a tournament that requires exceedingly large amounts of teamwork and cooperation, the onus falls on you, the group signing up, to be sure you are capable of this, knowing what you're up against.

 

Furthermore, you're riding on the very large assumptions that 1) teams enlisted on the TICT have a concentration of members from only one clan that must be the clan they're facing to be true 2) teams will not take action against members who so selfishly disregard obligation for some obscene concept of 'beef'

 

The first assumption generally proves to be false for several reasons: home clan distributions are fairly even. There might be slightly larger portions of clans than others, yes, but never so much as to threaten them from pulling the desired 20 people. And, if it does endanger them, again I feel this is the fault of the clan that signed up. And even then, if these circumstances were to magically align, and say a core member of LND as per your example fought against TT, the chances of that truly happening are very slim.

 

And if you're saying that LND and TT are in the same team but LND members must fight for TT, TT would be allowed to overdraft a certain number of people as per the rule update yesterday, which you might not have seen if you were not active on the forums.

 

The second assumption is, again, the duty of the group who signed up to enforce. I don't feel there's much of a need to elaborate, as I've touched on the reasons why this is equally unlikely (little chance of rival a fighting rival b and hurting their overall pull).

 

Let me reiterate that this is my opinion, and not to be mistaken for that of the staff. Rest assured that, as much as is within their power, suggestions of ALL sorts are being taken into consideration. But I do not feel that this situation is as dire as these claims posted here make them out to be. Certainly, there is a greater source of dissention caused by the sheer need to redraw, which wasn't even the problem of a team, but rather a collective issue of smaller problems.

[Beckingham]

YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT BLUFFED MEMBERLISTS WHEN 3 COLLISION MEMBERS JOINED LGZ THE DAY THE PAIRS WERE ANNOUNCED?

 

sounds a bit...oh what's the word? HYPOCRITICAL!

[obfuscator]

Yeah you knew the rules when you signed up, your problem. This is the first huge tourney tip.it has had in ages, you can't expect everything to go 100% right. Also bear in mind there are 20 from each - the remainder after 20 would be free to fight for the "clan". The difference is pretty negligible.

[DFWILL]

dislike the re-draw for the 2v2 :(.... and i do think a separated tournament for teams/clans would work better in the future.

[DJJules]

YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT BLUFFED MEMBERLISTS WHEN 3 COLLISION MEMBERS JOINED LGZ THE DAY THE PAIRS WERE ANNOUNCED?

 

sounds a bit...oh what's the word? HYPOCRITICAL!

 

You mad bro?

[Beckingham]

YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT BLUFFED MEMBERLISTS WHEN 3 COLLISION MEMBERS JOINED LGZ THE DAY THE PAIRS WERE ANNOUNCED?

 

sounds a bit...oh what's the word? HYPOCRITICAL!

 

You mad bro?

 

Hardly matters now does it? I wish your members the best of luck in Lgz if they choose to stay.

[bl4z1ng]

i personally dislike this Redraw. I don't see whats the point of this redraw. It was random drawing, and most people respect it. But a couple clan complained about the level of the clan they are fighting, and you decided to change it. Then whats the point of this "random" drawing if all it takes are just few complains and you give in?

 

Collision got pair up with Lgz, and we have no problem with it. It's something new and interesting. We got alot of stuff work out and sorted. But then out of nowhere we got this redraw... and got paired up with AK. Who flamed us when we going in their irc to announce the news of being teamed. How you expect us to work together? and the reasons for the redraw isn't really convincing to me nor to the clans that withdrew from that categories.

[Monkeyblazer]

YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT BLUFFED MEMBERLISTS WHEN 3 COLLISION MEMBERS JOINED LGZ THE DAY THE PAIRS WERE ANNOUNCED?

 

sounds a bit...oh what's the word? HYPOCRITICAL!

 

 

Dude, are you mad?

Beckingham, tell me. How can i cheer you up?

 

Infinitone is right.

The teams can adjust their pulls so that a certain clan could win easier.

This is a fatal flaw >.<

[infinitone]

The first assumption generally proves to be false for several reasons: home clan distributions are fairly even. There might be slightly larger portions of clans than others, yes, but never so much as to threaten them from pulling the desired 20 people. And, if it does endanger them, again I feel this is the fault of the clan that signed up. And even then, if these circumstances were to magically align, and say a core member of LND as per your example fought against TT, the chances of that truly happening are very slim.

 

The flaw is not only in 2v2. It could happen for the other categories, of course that has a much less chance of happening but the fact is- if it does happen say in the 50v50 category, where every member counts. So lets say Divine Forces v Clan Europe. Some of CE's members maybe in DF, this means CE because they are a team will lose members to DF. This means matching solely based on memberlist avg/#s is flawed. And don't overlook that there will be other rounds, and there is a good chance a team will face a clan that could cripple their expected numbers/performance.

 

And beckingham, you mad?

[Beckingham]

.ud you mad bro?:

 

What to say when nothing intelligent comes to mind.

[Danny_TeamDan]

I found myself agreeing with Beckingham on this one, funny how Coll was fine with the match up yet they were trying to manipulate it so that they can have more coll members war.

 

Kinda sucks when clans started making relationships with each other and now are forced to be with a new partner.

[DJJules]

.ud you mad bro?:

 

What to say when nothing intelligent comes to mind.

 

Whining^ when you know your clan can't compete.

[Danny_TeamDan]

.ud you mad bro?:

 

What to say when nothing intelligent comes to mind.

 

Whining^ when you know your clan can't compete.

 

^joining the clan your teamed up with, because you're afraid that they won't pull the 20 or have the experience.

[Kimberly]

The flaw is not only in 2v2. It could happen for the other categories, of course that has a much less chance of happening but the fact is- if it does happen say in the 50v50 category, where every member counts. So lets say Divine Forces v Clan Europe. Some of CE's members maybe in DF, this means CE because they are a team should not be matched solely based on memberlist avg/#. And don't overlook that there will be other rounds, and there is a good chance a team will face a clan that could cripple their expected numbers/performance.

 

Yet these things have, as you even stated, a very low chance of occurring. So low that, again going back to my argument of clan distribution, you would fairly be able to expect at the most 2-3 people affected by this. Looking through the 50v50 as you gave as an example, this would only be a potential risk to a small percentage of participants even assuming they encounter a team that a portion of their members participate in.

 

Yes, they can happen. Is the damage is as significant as to truly hurt teams? Most likely no. As you said, this problem has existed since the first draw, but after heeding suggestions from officials of leaders from teams and clans, this was the best proposed solution at the time.

 

It's completely infeasible now to think that teams and clans can be separated at this stage of the game. Perhaps for the next tournament planned sometime in the far future, we can persue something like this if the community wants that (because, as I must remind you, this tournament stemmed from community feedback).

 

As of right now, though, this thread offers no viable alternatives.

 

EDIT: Enough with the 'are you mad' stuff, please. I want people to be able to vent their frustrations, but if you give in to your base instincts and start insulting eachother like a bunch of kindergartners, your posts will be removed without notification and action could be taken against your account.

[infinitone]

Sounds good, we will see in acouple months if it was for the tourney or not. Now stay on topic, if you'd like to discuss any LGZ stuff i'd be glad to, query me on IRC. I know beckingham won't cause e-rep is the only reason he posts.

 

And lady_ninane, from my understanding by equal 'clan distribution' you mean equally matched/teamed based on numbers/cb average. Then i still don't see how, if 2v2 were truly decided with average combat and numbers into account, there are are still match ups and teams that are much stronger than others (eg. CE + NBK).

 

Also, i still think there is a chance regarding my argument about teams being weakened. I found it funny that when i just switched to IRC to see this...

 

<Dandaman619> o found it

<Dandaman619> thanks joe

<@QuikdrawJoe> you're welcome :P

<Dandaman619> ouch exo+tpr vs downfall and some1 else v.v

<Dandaman619> gunna hurt our pull :\

* IMB ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout)

* %absuseless ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: )

 

Also, do take into account that teams nowadays spring up very often. Henceforth they may not be taken so seriously as a clan is. An example of this is Team North America's sudden withdrawal from 2v2. Separating teams from clans would be more appropriate.

 

But i suppose you are right in terms of logistics, it would be tough to start over. I hope it will be taken into account in future tournaments though.

[Beckingham]

Sounds good, we will see in acouple months if it was for the tourney or not. Now stay on topic, if you'd like to discuss any LGZ stuff i'd be glad to, query me on IRC. I know beckingham cause e-rep is the only reason he posts.

 

And lady_ninane, from my understanding by equal 'clan distribution' you mean equally matched/teamed based on numbers/cb average. Then i still don't see how, if 2v2 were truly decided with average combat and numbers into account, there are are still match ups and teams that are much stronger than others (eg. CE + NBK).

 

It's because not every clan in the world has the same combat average and number of members. Of course there are going to be stronger matchups, there would be even if you hand-picked each pair.

[Laikrob]

About the redraw:

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/257459-important-about-the-2v2-lineup-the-redraw-canceled/

 

To all clans participating in the 2v2,

 

Based on feedback from the clan officials and members involved, we have decided to stick with the first draw.

 

The reason is that many of you had already had good contact with the clans you were paired with, and some had also been training together.

In addition, the second draw did not have the big impact in decreasing the combat level averages that we were hoping for - thus defeating the purpose.

 

You will still have an extra week to finish these wars, due to difficulties with time zones and such, and please don't hesitate contacting the Clan Staff if you need help with mediating or negotiating rules.

 

On behalf of the Clan Staff, I would like to apologise for the confusion and any drama caused by this.

[Sumit]

So you wasted your time to have a redraw to not go through with it, sounds legit. :thumbdown:

[Laikrob]

Yes, we had fun with it aswell. :unsure: Especially the feedback. Which lead to the decision to undo it.

 

Again, sorry for the inconvenience.

 

Free cookies over here, look shiny!

 

[imblooded]

Wat bs, i liked the redraw :thumbdown:

[Mister_T]

No