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Item Flipping


Demoli

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The way I see this whole merchanting subject is, that the overall category is Merchanting. Subcategories would be Item-flipping, manipulating and investing.

While manipulating would be on "the negative side", the two other would be on the positive. Flipping doesn't affect the system, as does investing neither.

 

I have no problem with flippers ([bleep] bathing sandals), I do it myself when I cba, lol. Manipulating though.. :thumbdown:

 

Trading is a zero-sum game. For every 100K you make, someone else involved loses 100K. I don't know if it affects the system, it probably does on a much smaller scale. But you are taking from other players without giving them anything in return, that, in my opinion, is fairly negative.

That's not true. If I buy an item while it's crashing at 10.2m then sell it the next day when it starts to rise again for 10.3m did anyone actually lose money on that deal? No they just payed more for it because they bought it at different times. Now if you do that by buying the item for 10.2m and selling it for 10.3m to the exact same person a day later then yes it is negative.

 

Oh and the ge didn't really help flipping at all, if anything it made it less profitable. It was harder pre ge but you could flip upwards of 10 whips for 200-300k each an hour if you were good. Now you have to wait for a 4 hour limit using the ge to flip.

 

Yes, someone DID lose something. Do you not understand the concept of a zero-sum game? It means the amount of goods in the system hasn't changed.

 

Three people put their items into the GE for 10,200,000, and do not check again until tomorrow.

Three people tomorrow buy at 10,300,000. However, because of the way the GE works, they each have 100,000 returned to them.

 

Each person trying to sell the item receives 10,200,000. Each person trying to buy the item receives their item for 100,000 less than they were willing to pay.

 

Input yourself into this system. You buy one from one of the three people on day one, and quickly resell on day 2. Each supplier still gains only 10,200,000, but one of the three buyers spends an extra 100,000, that flows directly to you.

 

When you flip without the Grand Exchange, you are saving one person the time and effort involved in selling their product, and services such as this have value. With the Grand Exchange, where items simply sit and wait to be purchased and collected, you are not providing any service - just taking.

 

For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

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The profit comes from other players but it doesn't mean they lose anything. It simply means they save less. There's difference between losing and saving. If someone is willing to put an offer in for 10.3m and you got yours for 10.2m the day before then they aren't losing anything. It's not losing just because you got something when the other person got it for less. If that was the case everyone single person in this game would lose something when they buy anything. And your little it about services at the end is flawed because you said they put the offer in for 10.3m therefore they want it..... Do you honestly go and DO something every time you sell an item? I guarantee you've "flipped" something simply by reselling it at a later date after using it without knowing (if you haven't that means you've never sold an item for more then you bought it for....). That's basically what flipping is, selling something at a later time for more because prices have changed.

 

First of all, I don't buy anything that I don't need. Anything I buy, I keep, or use, or occasionally, lose. Anything I sell, I either found it or made it myself. So your guarantee is wrong as far as I recall, I don't ever remember buying anything to resell.

 

Also, I think you misunderstand me. I'm using the word "lose" in an economics sense, which simply means you're worse off than you would have been in the hypothetical situation. That is, in this scenario, if event x had not happened, you would have 500K. Because event x happened, you only made 400k. This means event x caused a loss of 100k. If you aren't familiar with, or dislike my choice of words, then I apologize for the confusion.

 

However, the fact remains you have had a negative impact. You entered the system, and in the hypothetical situation where you were not present, at least one of the parties involved would have been in a better position than they are now, after your involvement, and you have given nothing in return.

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The way I see this whole merchanting subject is, that the overall category is Merchanting. Subcategories would be Item-flipping, manipulating and investing.

While manipulating would be on "the negative side", the two other would be on the positive. Flipping doesn't affect the system, as does investing neither.

 

I have no problem with flippers ([bleep] bathing sandals), I do it myself when I cba, lol. Manipulating though.. :thumbdown:

 

Trading is a zero-sum game. For every 100K you make, someone else involved loses 100K. I don't know if it affects the system, it probably does on a much smaller scale. But you are taking from other players without giving them anything in return, that, in my opinion, is fairly negative.

That's not true. If I buy an item while it's crashing at 10.2m then sell it the next day when it starts to rise again for 10.3m did anyone actually lose money on that deal? No they just payed more for it because they bought it at different times. Now if you do that by buying the item for 10.2m and selling it for 10.3m to the exact same person a day later then yes it is negative.

 

Oh and the ge didn't really help flipping at all, if anything it made it less profitable. It was harder pre ge but you could flip upwards of 10 whips for 200-300k each an hour if you were good. Now you have to wait for a 4 hour limit using the ge to flip.

 

Yes, someone DID lose something. Do you not understand the concept of a zero-sum game? It means the amount of goods in the system hasn't changed.

 

Three people put their items into the GE for 10,200,000, and do not check again until tomorrow.

Three people tomorrow buy at 10,300,000. However, because of the way the GE works, they each have 100,000 returned to them.

 

Each person trying to sell the item receives 10,200,000. Each person trying to buy the item receives their item for 100,000 less than they were willing to pay.

 

Input yourself into this system. You buy one from one of the three people on day one, and quickly resell on day 2. Each supplier still gains only 10,200,000, but one of the three buyers spends an extra 100,000, that flows directly to you.

 

When you flip without the Grand Exchange, you are saving one person the time and effort involved in selling their product, and services such as this have value. With the Grand Exchange, where items simply sit and wait to be purchased and collected, you are not providing any service - just taking.

 

For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

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The profit comes from other players but it doesn't mean they lose anything. It simply means they save less. There's difference between losing and saving. If someone is willing to put an offer in for 10.3m and you got yours for 10.2m the day before then they aren't losing anything. It's not losing just because you got something when the other person got it for less. If that was the case everyone single person in this game would lose something when they buy anything. And your little it about services at the end is flawed because you said they put the offer in for 10.3m therefore they want it..... Do you honestly go and DO something every time you sell an item? I guarantee you've "flipped" something simply by reselling it at a later date after using it without knowing (if you haven't that means you've never sold an item for more then you bought it for....). That's basically what flipping is, selling something at a later time for more because prices have changed.

 

First of all, I don't buy anything that I don't need. Anything I buy, I keep, or use, or occasionally, lose. Anything I sell, I either found it or made it myself. So your guarantee is wrong as far as I recall, I don't ever remember buying anything to resell.

 

Also, I think you misunderstand me. I'm using the word "lose" in an economics sense, which simply means you're worse off than you would have been in the hypothetical situation. That is, in this scenario, if event x had not happened, you would have 500K. Because event x happened, you only made 400k. This means event x caused a loss of 100k. If you aren't familiar with, or dislike my choice of words, then I apologize for the confusion.

 

However, the fact remains you have had a negative impact. You entered the system, and in the hypothetical situation where you were not present, at least one of the parties involved would have been in a better position than they are now, after your involvement, and you have given nothing in return.

So you're telling me you've never bought ANYTHING in the grand exchange then sold it again at ANYTIME.....

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Sure, some people lose out on 100k, but I don't see this as 'scamming'. People sell for lower prices when they need the money and they buy for high when they need the item. Flippers meerly charge these people a few percent convenience fee. If you want something here and now, then you should be prepared to pay a small fee for that. That's why convenience stores in real life cost so much. They do the work in getting the goods and services there at all hours of the day, you shouldn't complain when youhave to pay an extra couple %.

 

When I was buying a SGS for slaying I knew that I wouldn't need it for several days because I was skilling. So I put the offer in for med -2%. It took 3 days for it to come in but since I didn't need it at that moment, I was OK with the extra time it took because I knew I was getting it at a good price. I could have just as easily put my offer into the GE for med +2% and gotten the SGS right away (probably from a flipper) and paid the convenience fee.

 

Flipping does not provide a convenience, because had the item not been flipped, it would've awaited the person who wanted it... at a lower price. And as you pointed out, most of the time you don't need the money right away, nor the item. It doesn't take extra work to sell, the GE does it for you. No service, so no reward is deserved.

 

So you're telling me you've never bought ANYTHING in the grand exchange then sold it again at ANYTIME.....

 

That's what I said... can't you read?

 

Why don't YOU tell me what I bought that I re-sold then? Throughout the past several months, all I've bought is...

 

1) Supplies for herblore, when I was training that up. They were used, obviously.

2) Supplies for monster hunting, some of which are still in my bank, some of which have been used.

3) Some second ingredients (and third ingredients) for summoning, which were used. I had 4 raw rabbit meats leftover, which I simply dropped.

4) Supplies for slayer (prayer potions, cannonballs), which were used.

5) Boltracks for Fight Caves, which were used with leftover waiting my next TzHaar task.

 

That's really all I can think of...

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Sure, some people lose out on 100k, but I don't see this as 'scamming'. People sell for lower prices when they need the money and they buy for high when they need the item. Flippers meerly charge these people a few percent convenience fee. If you want something here and now, then you should be prepared to pay a small fee for that. That's why convenience stores in real life cost so much. They do the work in getting the goods and services there at all hours of the day, you shouldn't complain when youhave to pay an extra couple %.

 

When I was buying a SGS for slaying I knew that I wouldn't need it for several days because I was skilling. So I put the offer in for med -2%. It took 3 days for it to come in but since I didn't need it at that moment, I was OK with the extra time it took because I knew I was getting it at a good price. I could have just as easily put my offer into the GE for med +2% and gotten the SGS right away (probably from a flipper) and paid the convenience fee.

 

Flipping does not provide a convenience, because had the item not been flipped, it would've awaited the person who wanted it... at a lower price. And as you pointed out, most of the time you don't need the money right away, nor the item. It doesn't take extra work to sell, the GE does it for you. No service, so no reward is deserved.

Do you do a service when you kill a monster and get a drop? No, you kill it so in your theory you shouldn't get a reward for it. But seriously you don't have to do a service every time you make money it's not true in runescape and it's not true in real life.

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Sure, some people lose out on 100k, but I don't see this as 'scamming'. People sell for lower prices when they need the money and they buy for high when they need the item. Flippers meerly charge these people a few percent convenience fee. If you want something here and now, then you should be prepared to pay a small fee for that. That's why convenience stores in real life cost so much. They do the work in getting the goods and services there at all hours of the day, you shouldn't complain when youhave to pay an extra couple %.

 

When I was buying a SGS for slaying I knew that I wouldn't need it for several days because I was skilling. So I put the offer in for med -2%. It took 3 days for it to come in but since I didn't need it at that moment, I was OK with the extra time it took because I knew I was getting it at a good price. I could have just as easily put my offer into the GE for med +2% and gotten the SGS right away (probably from a flipper) and paid the convenience fee.

 

Flipping does not provide a convenience, because had the item not been flipped, it would've awaited the person who wanted it... at a lower price. And as you pointed out, most of the time you don't need the money right away, nor the item. It doesn't take extra work to sell, the GE does it for you. No service, so no reward is deserved.

Do you do a service when you kill a monster and get a drop? No, you kill it so in your theory you shouldn't get a reward for it. But seriously you don't have to do a service every time you make money it's not true in runescape and it's not true in real life.

 

Except, when I kill a monster, I am interacting with Jagex, not other players. My reward comes from Jagex, not other players.

 

Please, re-read what I said. Trading is a zero-sum game. You start with so much wealth, you end with so much wealth. Monster hunting is not a zero sum game, because money and items are created during monster hunting.

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - you're making it sound as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

As someone who's studied finance... don't even try arguing stocks. There's a lot more that goes into them than you think. But just a few reasons why your argument is terribly, terribly flawed -

 

1) Stocks don't come out of nowhere. They're a method of financing a business.

2) A significant part of stock valuation is based upon dividends.

3) Stocks also signify partial ownership of the company, which conveys benefits dependent on the company's policies.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly.

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Krampell could have easily sold it to another one of his friends. He could have also waited a few days before selling it and turned far more profit than you made. Sure you have every "right" to, just as much as someone taking a partyhat from someone else, claiming to "try it on." I use this older example because it fits the description; false pretense. There are plenty of other ways for you to make 350k than taking a staff that could have been given to another one of his friends. So no, I do not think what you did was the right choice, much less something to be bragging about.

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly.

 

Why do you assume that when people make an offer at minimum, it is convenience they want?

 

When I sell my loot from slayer, I always offer at minimum. This is because the mechanics of the GE state that if someone if people are willing to pay more, then they will pay me a higher price than I have offered. My actual valuation of the item when I do this is below the minimum value of the GE. The difference between what it's worth to me, and what I receive for it, is known as "producer surplus."

 

The GE's ability to retain my item is all the convenience I ask for. Taking advantage of the mechanic to seize a portion of this producer's surplus for yourself, or conversely, the consumer's surplus, is not providing convenience.

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly.

 

Why do you assume that when people make an offer at minimum, it is convenience they want?

 

When I sell my loot from slayer, I always offer at minimum. This is because the mechanics of the GE state that if someone if people are willing to pay more, then they will pay me a higher price than I have offered. My actual valuation of the item when I do this is below the minimum value of the GE. The difference between what it's worth to me, and what I receive for it, is known as "producer surplus."

 

The GE's ability to retain my item is all the convenience I ask for. Taking advantage of the mechanic to seize a portion of this producer's surplus for yourself, or conversely, the consumer's surplus, is not providing convenience.

What? I never said anything about selling for minimum or getting an item from a drop, this topic is about flipping :wall:

 

I'm talking about the difference of paying market price for an item or paying max for the convenience of getting an item, that won't buy instantly at market, instant. I'm talking about any random person that's willing to pay more and any random "flipper" that know someone will so he makes his offer to sell the item higher. Not putting an item in minimum because you know somene will buy it higher. This topic is about flipping which isn't selling lowest and hoping someone will buy it higher, it's putting an offer in higher then you bought it for. And nobody is talking about you specifically so what you do is irrelevant. Also, flipping has nothing to do with what you get as a drop it's all buying and selling.

 

Oh ya and stop trying to talk down to me by explaining economics, I know enough of it so stop doing it.

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

As someone who's studied finance... don't even try arguing stocks. There's a lot more that goes into them than you think. But just a few reasons why your argument is terribly, terribly flawed -

 

1) Stocks don't come out of nowhere. They're a method of financing a business.

2) A significant part of stock valuation is based upon dividends.

3) Stocks also signify partial ownership of the company, which conveys benefits dependent on the company's policies.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

 

You may have studied finance, but I have actually traded stocks... and as a day-to-day flipper, the principle is still the same - profit at another's expense. Yes, in the long-term a lot of money can come from an investment return from a company, which is why the stock market works long term, but for day-to-day trading - your flipping against every other trader out there, so you might as well call that stealing as well. It's a get rich slow process, which is better than receiving long-term returns from 1,2,3 that you listed.

 

Maybe I'm missing the point entirely as I don't indulge myself too much into as it's my parents money I work with, but that's the general impression I have received so far from online trading. And it's been good practice for when I start up myself in another year or two. :)

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Here's a real example of the point I'm trying to get across.

 

I just completed a Slayer Task of Blue Dragons, using my excess Ferocious Rings from other tasks to bank my loot. I collected 167 Blue Dragonhides and Dragon Bones.

 

When I approached the GE, I offered both at minimum price. This is common practice among Slayers, and it should be apparent why.

 

I offered the Blue Dragonhides at 2,071 (2,071 - 2,289) for a total of 345,857. They sold instantly, and I received 358,716.

I offered the Dragon Bones at 4,865 (4,865 - 5,379) for a total of 812,455. They sold instantly, and I received 855,374.

 

Do I really care that I got the money instantly? Not at all, and I can tell you, plenty of Slayers like me don't either. We offer minimum because it's our way of telling the Grand Exchange, "Hey, just give us the best offer." Now, why do we do this? Personally, I have no intention of training Crafting or Prayer anytime soon. I gathered these hides and bones expecting them to sell for a fair amount. Now, there comes a point where we'd say, "You know, these hides and bones just aren't worth enough. I'm not going to pick them up." This point is our valuation of the product.

 

Personally, I'd estimate my valuation to be at about 1,500 for the Dragonhide and the Dragon Bone alike. The reason they're the same, is that it doesn't matter whether it's a Hide or a Bone, it's worth one of my inventory spaces, a full inventory would cause me to have to bank and use up another Ferocious Ring charge.

 

Let's just say, no one was willing to buy the Bones / Hides right away. Well, no big deal. I have plenty of money in my bank, and it's not taking me anything for the GE to sell them. It's not like real life, where getting the money sooner would allow me to invest it in hopes of collecting some interest.

 

However, let's just say, for the sake of this, that no one wanted hides or bones now, but you thought people would want it tomorrow. You buy them from me at minimum, then re-sell tomorrow for maximum.

 

Now, here, we have two distinct possibilities - what would have been, had you not interfered, and what has been, because you have. In the first, I would have sold my goods at minimum, and the buyers would have saved some. This is Consumer Surplus - the difference between what they are willing to pay, and what the equilibrium price is. However, in the latter situation, I have sold my goods at minimum - I have lost nothing, and my producer surplus remains intact. On the other had, the consumer surplus is decreased.

 

This is harm. You are an un-asked for, an un-needed middleman in this very common situation. I had no qualms towards waiting a day to sell my bones, or in fact, waiting a week, because I don't need the money RIGHT NOW, and having that money RIGHT NOW gives me no benefit.

 

Had this been before the Grand Exchange, the situation would have been very different - I can't just continue my everyday business, waiting for the GE to sell it... that job would fall to you.

 

"Flipping" usually doesn't provide the convenience that it did before the Grand Exchange. A big part of the benefit of merchants has been usurped by the Grand Exchange, and by continuing to "flip", you harm people more often than you help, for your own benefit.

 

Also, the difference between scamming and flipping is deception. There's a significant difference. I am not trying to accuse people of being "bad people" because they flip, I am merely trying to inform them that their actions are harmful to the rest of the players in this zero-sum game of trading. This is not meant to be a personal attack.

 

You may have studied finance, but I have actually traded stocks... and as a day-to-day flipper, the principle is still the same - profit at another's expense. Yes, in the long-term a lot of money can come from an investment return from a company, which is why the stock market works long term, but for day-to-day trading - your flipping against every other trader out there, so you might as well call that stealing as well.

 

As have I. I've invested in stocks, as well as mutual funds, treasury bonds, and others. Profiting at another's expense in itself is not the issue - the entire concept of a stock is that it's a piece of a company, which entitles you to benefits "x" and "y". How well the company actually conveys these benefits to the holder, and how valued these benefits actually are, play heavily into the fluctuation in the value of a stock, which allows for this.

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly.

 

Why do you assume that when people make an offer at minimum, it is convenience they want?

 

When I sell my loot from slayer, I always offer at minimum. This is because the mechanics of the GE state that if someone if people are willing to pay more, then they will pay me a higher price than I have offered. My actual valuation of the item when I do this is below the minimum value of the GE. The difference between what it's worth to me, and what I receive for it, is known as "producer surplus."

 

The GE's ability to retain my item is all the convenience I ask for. Taking advantage of the mechanic to seize a portion of this producer's surplus for yourself, or conversely, the consumer's surplus, is not providing convenience.

What? I never said anything about selling for minimum or getting an item from a drop, this topic is about flipping :wall:

 

I'm talking about the difference of paying market price for an item or paying max for the convenience of getting an item, that won't buy instantly at market, instant. I'm talking about any random person that's willing to pay more and any random "flipper" that know someone will so he makes his offer to sell the item higher. Not putting an item in minimum because you know somene will buy it higher. This topic is about flipping which isn't selling lowest and hoping someone will buy it higher, it's putting an offer in higher then you bought it for. And nobody is talking about you specifically so what you do is irrelevant. Also, flipping has nothing to do with what you get as a drop it's all buying and selling.

 

Oh ya and stop trying to talk down to me by explaining economics, I know enough of it so stop doing it.

 

Okay I'm sorry, but you're getting ridiculous.

 

I know what we're talking about, thank you very much. Do you? Flipping is buying items, from other people, then selling the same items, to other people, and hoping to make a profit in between.

 

If you really do know enough of economics, then you would understand. Which you obviously don't. The fact of the matter is, when you're trading between players, nothing is created or lost, so your profit has to come from somewhere. In this case, your profit comes directly out of the producer surplus of he/she who produced the item, or the consumer surplus of he/she who purchased the item. Many have claimed "convenience" as the service they have provided, and I am pointing out that that is not the case. You have no control over who you purchase your items from to flip, and there are many people who don't need this service, hence it is not a service at all.

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Here's a real example of the point I'm trying to get across.

 

I just completed a Slayer Task of Blue Dragons, using my excess Ferocious Rings from other tasks to bank my loot. I collected 167 Blue Dragonhides and Dragon Bones.

 

When I approached the GE, I offered both at minimum price. This is common practice among Slayers, and it should be apparent why.

 

I offered the Blue Dragonhides at 2,071 (2,071 - 2,289) for a total of 345,857. They sold instantly, and I received 358,716.

I offered the Dragon Bones at 4,865 (4,865 - 5,379) for a total of 812,455. They sold instantly, and I received 855,374.

 

Do I really care that I got the money instantly? Not at all, and I can tell you, plenty of Slayers like me don't either. We offer minimum because it's our way of telling the Grand Exchange, "Hey, just give us the best offer." Now, why do we do this? Personally, I have no intention of training Crafting or Prayer anytime soon. I gathered these hides and bones expecting them to sell for a fair amount. Now, there comes a point where we'd say, "You know, these hides and bones just aren't worth enough. I'm not going to pick them up." This point is our valuation of the product.

 

Personally, I'd estimate my valuation to be at about 1,500 for the Dragonhide and the Dragon Bone alike. The reason they're the same, is that it doesn't matter whether it's a Hide or a Bone, it's worth one of my inventory spaces, a full inventory would cause me to have to bank and use up another Ferocious Ring charge.

 

Let's just say, no one was willing to buy the Bones / Hides right away. Well, no big deal. I have plenty of money in my bank, and it's not taking me anything for the GE to sell them. It's not like real life, where getting the money sooner would allow me to invest it in hopes of collecting some interest.

 

However, let's just say, for the sake of this, that no one wanted hides or bones now, but you thought people would want it tomorrow. You buy them from me at minimum, then re-sell tomorrow for maximum.

 

Now, here, we have two distinct possibilities - what would have been, had you not interfered, and what has been, because you have. In the first, I would have sold my goods at minimum, and the buyers would have saved some. This is Consumer Surplus - the difference between what they are willing to pay, and what the equilibrium price is. However, in the latter situation, I have sold my goods at minimum - I have lost nothing, and my producer surplus remains intact. On the other had, the consumer surplus is decreased.

 

This is harm. You are an un-asked for, an un-needed middleman in this very common situation. I had no qualms towards waiting a day to sell my bones, or in fact, waiting a week, because I don't need the money RIGHT NOW, and having that money RIGHT NOW gives me no benefit.

 

Had this been before the Grand Exchange, the situation would have been very different - I can't just continue my everyday business, waiting for the GE to sell it... that job would fall to you.

 

"Flipping" usually doesn't provide the convenience that it did before the Grand Exchange. A big part of the benefit of merchants has been usurped by the Grand Exchange, and by continuing to "flip", you harm people more often than you help, for your own benefit.

 

Also, the difference between scamming and flipping is deception. There's a significant difference. I am not trying to accuse people of being "bad people" because they flip, I am merely trying to inform them that their actions are harmful to the rest of the players in this zero-sum game of trading. This is not meant to be a personal attack.

 

You may have studied finance, but I have actually traded stocks... and as a day-to-day flipper, the principle is still the same - profit at another's expense. Yes, in the long-term a lot of money can come from an investment return from a company, which is why the stock market works long term, but for day-to-day trading - your flipping against every other trader out there, so you might as well call that stealing as well.

 

As have I. I've invested in stocks, as well as mutual funds, treasury bonds, and others. Profiting at another's expense in itself is not the issue - the entire concept of a stock is that it's a piece of a company, which entitles you to benefits "x" and "y". How well the company actually conveys these benefits to the holder, and how valued these benefits actually are, play heavily into the fluctuation in the value of a stock, which allows for this.

By what you keep using as an example of what you're trying to say, selling loot from monsters, I'm starting to think you don't know what flipping actually is......

 

Flipping has nothing to do AT ALL with monsters. It's simply buying an item in the grand exchange and reselling it. Nothing more nothing less. There are no monsters involved, no drops, nothing. Sure the items have to come from somewhere but when flipping that doesn't matter, you're buying it all not getting it from anywhere else.

 

And tbh real life stock investments are a little too different from flipping in runescape so can we just stop using that as an example.... I mean come on there are no mutual funds or treasury bonds in runescape. This topic is about runescape flipping so can we keep it at that?

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The way I see this whole merchanting subject is, that the overall category is Merchanting. Subcategories would be Item-flipping, manipulating and investing.

While manipulating would be on "the negative side", the two other would be on the positive. Flipping doesn't affect the system, as does investing neither.

 

I have no problem with flippers ([bleep] bathing sandals), I do it myself when I cba, lol. Manipulating though.. :thumbdown:

 

Trading is a zero-sum game. For every 100K you make, someone else involved loses 100K. I don't know if it affects the system, it probably does on a much smaller scale. But you are taking from other players without giving them anything in return, that, in my opinion, is fairly negative.

 

Yes, you've stated this point continuously, but if the layer is willing to lose 100k for the convenience of having something instantly, how are they being hurt? No one is forcing them to be impatient. That's all item flipping is... providing instant gratification for those that seek it and are willing to give up for it. It's not exactly a service, but it is something to take advantage of.

 

By the way, I realize my comparison is a pretty bad one now that I think of it. The type of competition you find in the real market severely lacks in the GE. And then you have a lot of internal/external factors that you brought up, and then you have... real money, real stress, and not just pixels. :P

 

Anyway, good topic to see the views these days. (I can at least agree that item is flipping a complete joke compared to what it once was - it's not even fair to compare them)

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By what you keep using as an example of what you're trying to say, selling loot from monsters, I'm starting to think you don't know what flipping actually is......

 

Flipping has nothing to do AT ALL with monsters. It's simply buying an item in the grand exchange and reselling it. Nothing more nothing less. There are no monsters involved, no drops, nothing. Sure the items have to come from somewhere but when flipping that doesn't matter, you're buying it all not getting it from anywhere else.

 

And tbh real life stock investments are a little too different from flipping in runescape so can we just stop using that as an example.... I mean come on there are no mutual funds or treasury bonds in runescape. This topic is about runescape flipping so can we keep it at that?

 

Yes, it does have to do with monsters, because that's where the item comes from.

 

Do you think items just magically appear? Items are CREATED, in one way or another. It could be smithed, it could be a monster drop.

 

In any case, forget about specific examples with regards to items. Think of it this way.

 

I want to sell an item. I put it in at minimum, NOT because I need it to sell right away, but because I think it's worth less than that and am willing to sell at any price within the range, knowing the GE will provide me with the best price.

 

You intercede and buy the item. You sell the item tomorrow to someone who is willing to pay maximum.

 

Had you not been involved, I would simply have sold the item tomorrow to the person who was willing to pay maximum. This means the buyer would have gotten a better price had it not been for you taking a cut.

 

Look at the net benefit.

 

Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

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Can't agree more with Soma even though I do flip myself from time to time.

 

Robert, do you even get it? He knows flipping has nothign to do with monsters. He justs wants to set an example how a flipper causes someone who sells items to get les than he would normally get. Is it that hard to understand?

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For every 100K you earn, either a buyer or seller would have lost 100K, because of your "flip." This should be obvious - your profit from flipping comes from other players. As long as you are not providing an actual service that the buyer/seller actually wants, you are essentially stealing.

 

It's absurd to think anything is wrong with this. How do you think online stock trading works? The only difference is the GE is free - the GE itself is a service, and should be charging for every transaction. And you know what, you're making it sound like the flipper is the scammer, but what about the buyers? They no longer have to search for a seller for hours, meet up in the same world, same location, and then make sure they aren't getting scammed either.

 

There is no stealing going on here. When a buyer pays 200k of middle price, it's because they are willing to pay for the convenience of receiving that item instantly. No service my [wagon] - as if the buyer deserves any with the GE.

 

Finally, there's no looking for a buyer or seller either way. Thanks to something we call the "Grand Exchange".

That's the whole point of what he's saying... Before the ge you had to look for a seller but now with the grand exchange people are willing to pay more for the convenience of getting an item instantly. And I agree with him, you're making it sound like a "flipper" is a scammer which is just stupid. Scammers purposely sell an item to someone who doesn't know the value of something, but scammers like that really disappeared after the grand exchange and trade limits. Now everyone knows the value of something (in terms of ge prices) and if they're willing to pay top price for it then fine let them. If not they'll have to wait a few hours for it to buy for market price. All a "flipper" is doing is selling an item at a higher price because they know someone is going to want the convenience of getting an item instantly.

 

Why do you assume that when people make an offer at minimum, it is convenience they want?

 

When I sell my loot from slayer, I always offer at minimum. This is because the mechanics of the GE state that if someone if people are willing to pay more, then they will pay me a higher price than I have offered. My actual valuation of the item when I do this is below the minimum value of the GE. The difference between what it's worth to me, and what I receive for it, is known as "producer surplus."

 

The GE's ability to retain my item is all the convenience I ask for. Taking advantage of the mechanic to seize a portion of this producer's surplus for yourself, or conversely, the consumer's surplus, is not providing convenience.

What? I never said anything about selling for minimum or getting an item from a drop, this topic is about flipping :wall:

 

I'm talking about the difference of paying market price for an item or paying max for the convenience of getting an item, that won't buy instantly at market, instant. I'm talking about any random person that's willing to pay more and any random "flipper" that know someone will so he makes his offer to sell the item higher. Not putting an item in minimum because you know somene will buy it higher. This topic is about flipping which isn't selling lowest and hoping someone will buy it higher, it's putting an offer in higher then you bought it for. And nobody is talking about you specifically so what you do is irrelevant. Also, flipping has nothing to do with what you get as a drop it's all buying and selling.

 

Oh ya and stop trying to talk down to me by explaining economics, I know enough of it so stop doing it.

 

Okay I'm sorry, but you're getting ridiculous.

 

I know what we're talking about, thank you very much. Do you? Flipping is buying items, from other people, then selling the same items, to other people, and hoping to make a profit in between.

 

If you really do know enough of economics, then you would understand. Which you obviously don't. The fact of the matter is, when you're trading between players, nothing is created or lost, so your profit has to come from somewhere. In this case, your profit comes directly out of the producer surplus of he/she who produced the item, or the consumer surplus of he/she who purchased the item. Many have claimed "convenience" as the service they have provided, and I am pointing out that that is not the case. You have no control over who you purchase your items from to flip, and there are many people who don't need this service, hence it is not a service at all.

Now you're just deliberately being an [wagon].

 

Oh and btw if they didn't need the "service" then they wouldn't be buying it for max. They'd put the offer for market. Not to mention the fact that I never said convenience was a service.

 

 

@ Bedman, yes I get it I'm just pointing out that he keeps using the fact that he gets his drops from monsters and sells for minimum. Which has nothing to do with the topic of flipping. But w/e

 

 

I see what you're getting at, the "flipper" really doesn't deserve it but if the buyer is willing to do it then what's stopping him.

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Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

 

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE.

 

You could make the point that a flipper is now causing an inconvenience by making the buyer have to wait a bit longer... but when we're talking about putting an offer into the GE and waiting, how much of an inconvenience could that possibly be? It only becomes a real problem with clan manipulation, which has an entirely different effect on the market than do item flippers.

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Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

 

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE.

That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower.

 

This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw.

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Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

 

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE.

That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower.

 

This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw.

The patience is needed partly because of the flippers who are taking away the offers at lower prices.

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Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

 

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE.

That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower.

 

This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw.

The patience is needed partly because of the flippers who are taking away the offers at lower prices.

That's true but most flippers look for items that were already rising and hard to get in the first place. You gotta remember that flippers also had to have the patience to buy the item at the lower price to be able to sell it at the higher price. It's not like they got it instantly.

 

There is one exception I can think of that's having a decent effect on prices by flipping atm. Chessy's manipulation clan turned into a merch "help clan" a few months ago but really all they do is have several items that they claim to tell people are good for flipping.

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The patience is needed partly because of the flippers who are taking away the offers at lower prices.

 

God forbit a player on an mmo need to be a bit patient. And as far a middle price goes... very little patience is being asked of a buyer... because most flippers buy an item for a bit under mid, and resell it at or a bit above mid.

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Seller - Sold an item, got 10M.

Flipper - Bought an item, sold the item, earned 200K.

Buyer - Bought an item, spend 10.2M.

 

What has the flilpper done that deserves that 200K he earned? Had he not been involved, the buyer would have only spend 10M. Which means he's put the buyer in a worse economic situation by 200K. There's no "convenience" provided, because I, the seller, did not find the need to sell the good, and gained nothing from having it sold a day earlier.

 

Or... Buyer could just put in an offer for 10M and wait for the next seller. This is why I cannot, and will not ever view item flipping as stealing. No one is forcing anyone to be impatient with the GE.

That's my whole point right there. The buyer could either a: wait for another seller that's selling lower or b: buy higher because he can't get it lower.

 

This is all assuming the item is hard to get in the first place and would take hours to get at the lower price btw.

 

That's my whole point right there. None of you seem to understand the concept of "Consumer Surplus."

 

Right now, if I were to lose my Abyssal Whip due to, say, dying at Tormented Demons and not making it back in time, I'd go to the Grand Exchange and buy another. It could be 5M. It could be 7M. I'd still buy it.

 

Maybe if it were 12M, I'd reconsider, and possibly get my own. If this is the case, then MY valuation of the item is 12M. If the GE will sell for 6M, my consumer surplus is 6M.

 

However, if you buy it from a seller for 6M, replace the offer at 6.2M, and it sells to me, you have reduced my consumer surplus by 200K.

 

This is why I keep repeating, it's a zero sum game. Anything you get within this system has to come from someone, and unless you return the value by providing some sort of service, then it's had a negative impact.

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